The Help for my Gibbs Has Helped!!!!

[oldracer]

Well today was the range test of the several suggestions I got from mys posts. I was going to add the results at the end but I hate long, multiple page posts so here goes. I started at 50 yards so I could see my results easier.

First 5 shots were double wrapped w/o any lube on the bullets as this was figured to be my problem. I used 80 grains of FFG and a fiber wad w/o any compression and I did slit the side of the patch as noted by Roger. Three were at 2:00 in a standard 3 bulls eye NRA target but two decided to tumble so I figured the paper was sticking around too long. I tried 5 Chase wrap and they all were a little low and to the right, about 5:00 just off the black. I adjusted the sights and also went to 90 grains of powder and they got close to the 8:00 just inside the black. Then a cease fire so I moved the target out to 100 yards.

Decided to just try the Chase single wrap and I adjusted the tang up a tad and the next shot went over the whole target! A very old time Scheutzen man noted that he remembered paper patch bullets shooting flatter and after cutting the sight adjustment by 50% I was in the black again at 9:00. So I shot 15 more single wrap and they were all in the black but now the wind was really gusting so the grouping was not great but I did get two right in the center during a calm period. I was wiping a wet Balistol/water patch followed by a dry patch double sided between shots.

It appears the Gibbs likes the single wrap paper patch but I still have to try the other gun with the Green Mtn. barrel to see if it will be similar. The biggest difference in the barrels is the sharp edges inside the Green Mtn. barrel as opposed to rounded edges in the Gibbs so that may make the double wrap bullets happier? At lease the gun is getting on paper well and I can go to bed a happy boy to night! Thanks everyone, especially Roger.

[johnson1942]

i think the more you get into the single wrap and tweek the single wrap system for each gun the better groups you will get. remember in the cartridge rifles alot of the shooters shoot a bullet that when wrapped if about the same diam as a cast bullet would be. this alows the paper to be cut by the lands and come off the bullet easy. in the muzzle loader the bullet has to bump up and may not be cut by the lands. with the single wrap system the paper is coming off the bullet instantly.some guns are going to shoot the double wrap well and others are fussy. it maye be that the sharper lands shoot double wrap better. i have two .50/s that wont shoot double wrap but drive tacks with the single wrap. out of my 3 .45/s, one prefers the single wrap. my douglas barrel thats36 inches long shoots either. i think the lands are sharper. ive pretty much gone to the single wrap,as it why fight it, to me it is so much easier to do the single wrap.

[Don McDowell]

Actually I'ld about bet most black powder cartridge rifle shooters shoot bullets that are wrapped to bore diameter or maybe up to .005 under.. about the same as can be slid down a muzzleloader barrel.
We do use a healthy wad stack under the bullet to protect the base and stop the blowby gas cutting..
Pick up a copy of Ned Roberts Muzzleloading caplock rifle, there's a ton of information in there about making a "slug" gun run.

[oldracer]

An item I failed to mention was I wet the single wrap patch slightly on the outside for several of the shots and it did not seem to make any difference as to the grouping. I have changed the front globe insert back to a ring as I was using a thick post and it got hard to see after about 10 or 12 shots.

I was talking to Doug Knoell for a bit tonight and he said I might want to try two milk carton wads, same material I used in my cartridge guns and they had a new wad on top but the paper patch will eliminate the need for that he noted. The two wads might give a better seal?

[Don McDowell]

Card wad on the powder with a thin felt wad between it and the base of the bullet work rather well at protecting the bases.
Roberts book specifically mentions in detail the importance of seating the bullet so it's axis is true in line with the bore center line as being important to anything close to accuracy.

[Gunlaker]

Don I think that's the reason that bore diameter bullets work so well. Once you seat then far out into the rifling they are a lot more concentric than most greasers will ever be, unless a lot of care is taken fitting the GG mould perfectly to the chamber.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Chris yes that's a lot of it, but also the deformation of the bullet when shooting over bore diameter comes into play destroying accuracy. With grease groove bullets the lube grooves contract and the excess metal wiped off of the lands flows into the lube grooves and keeps the axis of the bullet mostly centered. With patched bullets there's no place for the lead to go other than trying to displace at the base, or slumping the nose of center.

[johnson1942]

i should explain as to why i shoot .451 bullets wrapped to .458 in my two 45/70/s. i had a throating reamer made to ..459 with a bore quide on it of .450. i throated both my 45/70/s for about 1/2 inch. that way i can also set the bullet into the bore as you guys do and nothing jumps out of case. i read about it and in a old book and it works very well for me. if your gun isnt throated i can see why you use the undersized bullet. it has to be accurate in a cartridge as my .45 cal barrel 1/18 twist on one of my muzzleloaders shoots like a house a fire. i use a 500 grain bullet, just aim and shoot and it is always on point of aim.

[Don McDowell]

Accurate at what distance? Stuff that will destroy accuracy and scores beyond 600 yds, won't even show up at 1 and 200 yds. Freeboring the chamber is the problem that caused most of the early Shiloh's to be rebarreled, a proper throat cut into a cartridge rifle for paper patch shooting won't be any longer than that used for grease groove, but it will be a very gentle angle much like the chamber of 22 rifles.

[oldracer]

When I had the 45-70 cartridge guns, I shot 0.458 diameter grease groove bullets and they were less than 1 MOA out to 300 yards. The nose of the bullet sat 0.002 off the rifling as recommended by Doug Knoell and I used a milk carton wad and newspaper wad under the bullet. They were 530 grain 5 groove bullets and were seated in the fire formed case by finger pressure. WAY different than shooting a "slug gun" for sure!

[oldracer]

Well, it appears I am getting the hang of this muzzle loader paper patch business, at least out to 100 yards! Went to the range today and it was a bit breezy but I wanted to try out the 0.060 wads I cut yesterday and to continue with the Chase single wrap system. Sooooooo here is what happened, with the following setup: 90 grains of Goex FFG, one 0.060 veggy fiber wad, 550 grain straight sided Creedmoor bullet and using my Pedersoli Gibbs. The first several shots went 8 to 10 inches low, possibly due to the tightness of the wad so I adjusted the tang up a couple points and did this for 5 shots until the next one was even with the bulls eye but just a bit to the right. I then shot 6 more with a wet and dry patch between each shot and the next two were touching just to the left of the center shot. Next two were about 1/2 inch to the left of each previous one due to gusty wind and the last two were touching. I am a happy boy and now can work on things to get the grouping better, mainly me since I am still getting over the heart bypass surgery. Today was shot off bench mounted cross sticks and I probably should have used my Lead Sled but I like the feel of that Gibbs when it goes boom!

[johnson1942]

keep us posted as to how it goes each time, thanks

[longranger]

There is a bit more voodoo in the L/R M/L's from what you have described I would refine my loading technique.Appears your bullet is wanting to shoot but other things are going on that could use some attention.After years of study of the Gibbs rifles and similar rifles and having attended Camp Perry and many other L/R M/L events one thing in common with all of the top shooters was their loading technique.Many rifles had 3-4" of "extra" barrel" fashioned into bullet starters in the old days.
First and foremost is a proper range rod,nice heavy one with a spinning wood handle.Long funnel to place the powder charge exactly in the right spot in the chamber without having powder sticking to sides of the barrel.Wad stack,.30" gasket,cork,your choice.Lubed felt wad,I use SPG mixed with some Mink Oil paste and lube my own. .30" cardboard wad. Start this stack after powder has been placed in the chamber and seat on top of the powder.L/R M/L's not unlike BPCR's like their powder compressed a bit.To do this in a consistent manner,using the range rod raise it 6-8' above the wad stack/powder charge and moderately tamp down 3 times using the weight of the range rod.Now seat and start your bullet,bullet only needs to be assuredly set on top the wad stack.I think you will see a dramatic improvement in your accuracy. Platinum nipples are also a good investment.

[BrentD]

I don't think there is a lot of voodoo in LRMLing. But I'm just a simple guy. I like a best quality bullet over a moderate charge of Swiss powder and a 0.060" LDPE wad. There is no need for lube if one is wiping anyway, and I find it best NOT to tamp a bullet even once. Just seat it firmly on the powder (no need for powder compression). Damaging a bullet's nose never did anything for accuracy. i don't use anything fancy for seating the bullet - just a plain ol' fixed steel rod with a brass jag on the front if it.

Keep it simple, clean, and use the best quality bullet, wad, and powder. After that, it's all about you.

[montana_charlie]

the deformation of the bullet when shooting over bore diameter comes into play destroying accuracy.
Would you point out that deformation on these two patched-to-groove bullets fired in 2012 and 2013 so that the newbies can understand what you are talking about?

http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv203/montana_charlie/Comparison_zpsab91c485.jpg

[Don McDowell]

You mean other than the obvious imprint of the paper grain into the bullet and the double tap at the leading edge of the engraving on the rifling?
Now maybe you can show us how well they group at oh say something midrange like 600 yds?

[oldracer]

Hum, seems like my thread has taken a life of its own? I dug up several of the bullets both paper patch and grease groove and they did not have as deep of grooves as the ones in the picture. Remember these are bore riding down to the powder, not shot from a cartridge. I had some of my sharps grease groove bullets that were dug up and they looked similar to those as they were 0.458 diameter after sizing. A couple of the local shooters, Russ Hooks for one told me that the groove imprint would me much lighter as the paper patch are 0.451 diameter after wrapping.

As it looks now I am working with 90 grains of FFG, 0.060 veg fiber wad, chase wrap on a creedmoor shaped 560 grain bullet and they seem to be happy. I am working on a scope for my slug gun and should have it complete this week and will take it to the range next week. The scope should be about 12 to 16 power as best I can tell. I glued in the lenses to the bushings tonight and tomorrow Will make the cross hairs. I plan to drill and tap the holes for the set screws to hold everything in place tomorrow.

[Don McDowell]

Oldracer, most of the folks that shoot paper patched in the cartridge guns only seat the bullet about a tenth into the case, so those bullets have to be like the muzzle loader, they've got to fit into the bore without buggering much with the paper.
Wow making your own scope, now that's a talent that you just don't find everywhere. Pretty dang neat all the stuff you make. Myself I can cut a 2x6 off twice and the dang thing will still be to long..LOL

[Gunlaker]

Oldracer that sounds interesting. Can you post a few pictures of your setup once you are done? Not that I have the talent to build anything like that.

From the handful of bullets ( 20:1 and 16:1 ) that I've recovered, they show pretty deep rifling imprints even though they are patched to bore diameter. I remember seeing Kurt's pictures of recovered bullets. He had some excellent examples of recovered bullets with a number of different alloys.

Chris.

[montana_charlie]

Would you point out that deformation on these two patched-to-groove bullets fired in 2012 and 2013 so that the newbies can understand what you are talking about?You mean other than the obvious imprint of the paper grain into the bullet and the double tap at the leading edge of the engraving on the rifling?
No, the 'double tap' is a function of not aligning the patch wraps correctly, not of being patched to groove diameter.
And, the paper grain impression ... how do you know it isn't on your bullets, too?


Why do you consider that 'texture' to be 'deformation'?

I don't consider it to be a problem of any kind and Kurt seems to agree with me ... if his opinion matters.
When he first saw one, he thought it had been breech seated.


You asked for a target fired at 600 yards.
I don't have a setup for that kind of distance, but I went out onto some irrigation project lease pasture and shot this a couple of hours ago. My laser range finder says this fills your request.

The target (with a 13.2-inch bull) was taped to an old swather tire, and I rested over the hood of my pickup.
This bull is too small to see at that range, but I used the 30-inch tire as the aiming point.

The wind was calm but the temperature is is about 15°, so I was kinda in a hurry to get off fifteen shots ... what with all the wet wiping, and all. I might do a bit better under nicer conditions, but maybe not.

The first shot is way up in the top left. I was just guessing about a sight setting for a range than long.
I am just glad it hit the paper.
The group is roughly 14(w) x 11(h) if you discount the high one.

http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv203/montana_charlie/600yds_zpsd45516f1.jpg


Do you put any value on the thoughts from Dan Theodore?
This is WAS the post where Dan Theodore advised Ken Einig (two guns) to use the .454" bullet and patch it up to groove diameter. But, Theodore edited everything to Greek gibberish.
http://bpcr.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2274


This is how Theodore described a rifle he was offering for sale at BPCR.net

"I have a 45-90 PP Browning for sale. It has been rechambered with a specially designed 45-90 PP reamer to accommodate groove-diameter PP bullets. Accuracy exceeds the Sharps-style PP rifles I've been shooting and winning with the past 4 years."

I'm pretty sure Dan was patching to bore with his Sharps rifles, but had better luck with groove diameter.


Now, could you tell me again how that 'deformation' works?

CM

[Lead pot]

CM.


" I don't consider it to be a problem of any kind and Kurt seems to agree with me ... if his opinion matters.
When he first saw one, he thought it had been breech seated."


Yes I remember saying that when I saw you post those pictures.
And I still will say that is the way a paper patched bullet should look like patched to bore or groove. I spend a lot of winter time developing my alloy for a new mould I get to find the alloy that will hold the nose setback so the patch rides the bore at the point like in the photo and the groove fully filled.
To come up with a alloy and patch location like in that picture is hard to come up with by just guessing. The left bullet has an alloy just a little softer than the right one from what I can see with out measuring them to check setback.
What I see in both of those bullets and that is they where seated slightly off the lands and made a slight jump, but they held very good.
You have more leeway with alloy temper for a PP bullet patched to groove diameter using alloy harder then needed then when you patch to bore or slightly under bore. A small mismatched alloy to hard or to soft patched under bore or one or two thousands over bore will show up at extended ranges.

[Don McDowell]

If you did in fact shoot that group at 600 yds, it's not bad, not bad at all.
None of the bullets I've recovered look a screwy as those in your picture tho.
As to Dan T.? I met him at Raton, at the BPTR championship in 2013. We had a good visit during the week, and I find him to be a pretty neat fella to talk to. We do exchange emails and the occasional phone call. I do know he was working on patched loads to take to the BPTR nationals last year, but then with his changing jobs, he was unable to attend.
So as you've got your rifle and load shooting that well, maybe someday you'll venture out into the world and show us how well you really can shoot. There needs to be more folks shooting patched in the matches. Last year at the Nationals there was only one that shot the entire match with patched, and two shot the Creedmoor with patched..

[montana_charlie]

If you did in fact shoot that group at 600 yds, it's not bad, not bad at all.
Truthfully, I only posted it because it turned out so much better than I expected.
Considering how much variation I see from session to session at 300, I would probably be hard pressed to duplicate that one in five tries.

CM

[Don McDowell]

Practice,practice,practice...

[SgtDog0311]

Nice shooting CM. I shot a pretty good group out in Cheyenne this summer at 600 yds but mostly I'm just happy to hear metal clang. My conditions were cadilac compared to yours - good of you to take the trouble to illustrate something in such frigid conditions. I reckon "out in the world" is all relative but that's out in it enough for me.

[Don McDowell]

The nice thing about getting out in the world and doing some shooting, is the learning curve that is available away from the comfort of a persons "home" range.. Most folks learn more about making their rifles run and run well in a days match shooting away from their home range, than they do in 2 years time at home...

[montana_charlie]

I only go out to shoot five or six times during an average summer, and I do it purely for pleasure.
I'll shoot a time or two in the winter if I have some bullets I want to recover samples of.

As for going somewhere else to shoot ...
The Quigley is the closest to me and I could handle the costs of attending. But, it occurs right in the middle of my second run of irrigation. No way could I just stop watering for four days.

For the rest, I haven't gone away from here for a 'vacation' of any kind since 1994. The only required absence was in 2009 when I went to Spokane for surgery. A neighbor fed my cows for the six days I was gone, and 'helped' me do it for two weeks as I healed up.

I moved around a lot ... all of my life ... and now I am content to just 'be here'.

CM

[Don McDowell]

They do shoot midrange and sillouette at Butte, sillouettes at Livingston..Billings has a gong match, Missoula has a variety of matches.
I like the learning experience , have never come away from a good match without some new found knowledge...Plus the opportunity to visit and exchange ideas with folks in person is well worth the trouble of going to various matches.

[SgtDog0311]

CM, If I had some irrigation project lease pasture nearby I might just be content enough to build some dingers and invite friends over for the fun. I shoot off my porch when up North at the cabin and love the convenience of trotting upstairs to adjust a load and coming back downstairs for another round. Only drawback is the range. Twenty acres gives me a long enough range for a 600yd target but for the house a neighbor built near the property line in that direction. He'd probably start shooting back if I skipped one in his direction. Sounds like you didn't have far to travel for that 600yd expedition. I get to shoot out to 1000yds about twice a year where I'm fortunate enough to have two friends with that kind of layout. Always learn a lot just getting ready to go and always enjoy the fraternity. Fortunately a guy can learn a bit on the forums from those willing to share. I'd travel more perhaps if I could affort the time and money but I'm kinda like you and mostly content to just "be there". At the cabin I go for days sometimes without seeing another face.

[Don McDowell]

Load testing at 270 yds off the deck, reloading bench about 4 ft behind the camera, just inside the door.:bigsmyl2:
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f358/Ranch137/010108.jpg

My 1000 yd range about 500 yds west from the shot off the deck..
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f358/Ranch137/001-6.jpg

[SgtDog0311]

Can't beat that unless you are in Tonasket!

[Don McDowell]

Need to get some windflags up on the long range, other than that it's pretty handy.

[SgtDog0311]

Mine is at a more modest range. Wish it was long enough to need flags.

125224

[Lumpy grits]

Load testing at 270 yds off the deck, reloading bench about 4 ft behind the camera, just inside the door.:bigsmyl2:
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f358/Ranch137/010108.jpg

My 1000 yd range about 500 yds west from the shot off the deck..
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f358/Ranch137/001-6.jpg

Dang-what a sweet deal!
Don't think I would ever leave, if we came to visit-:mrgreen:
LG

[Don McDowell]

Gary, I've got some regulation sillywet's ready to make some swingers , whenever the neighbor gets his new well pipe and sucker rod corrals built. I can have his scraps and short pieces to build the swinger frames out of...Tell Ms. Ima we said hello and we are looking at getting some hats made so's I can replace the one you stolt from her...[smilie=w:

[Lumpy grits]

I didn't 'stolt' it. Only kinda borrowed it for a bit.[smilie=1:
Barb sez she would love to have a hat(me too).
LG