45 ACP feeding problems

[bcr]

I have been having feeding problems with the H&G 68 boolit in several guns (Fusion 1911 commander; S&W CS45; S&W 4553). These should all be reliable guns, so it makes me suspect something is wrong with my loading. I checked the throats on all three barrels according to BD's sticky, and all three look properly throated.

I use the Lee FCD with the most gentle crimp I can have that allows the round to drop fully into the chamber of the 1911 barrel. What else should I be checking?

The 1911 fails to go into battery about ever 2-3 shots. The Smiths had about 1 malfunction per magazine.

[nhrifle]

Since it's all three pistols giving you trouble, the magazines probably wouldn't be the problem, but they are worth checking to make sure rounds strip freely. Check for any binding/burrs on the slide and frame and make sure all operating parts are working as designed. Lube with a good quality oil. Might be worth giving a light polish to the feed ramps.

I suspect you are having issues with the OAL of assembled cartridges. The forward most shoulder of the front driving band of the boolit should be seated to almost flush with the case mouth and crimped.

Bill Wilson offers some advice that is good reading: http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/1911_diet.htm

[silverado]

I loaded mine (tl version) like nhrifle suggests l, shoulder flush with case mouth. Worked in my officer model.

[seagiant]

Hi,
Well...I don't care for the LEE FCD. I would suggest a real RCBS/Hornady/Redding taper crimp die! If you don't have a real taper crimp you WILL have what you describe!

Is that your problem? I don't know? Good luck!

[DougGuy]

Have you used any pin gages and measured the throats? You can get a single .4520ZM gage from Meyer Gage for less than $4 and use it to check barrel throats. It's one thing to look in the bore and see a throat, which is just freebore, but how big is it? This is the part that needs to be a tad over boolit diameter for it to reliably plunk test loaded ammo, AND to reliably go into battery with that ammo.

You shouldn't be forced to seat flush with the case mouth, as this lessens the COA measurement, which the longer it is, usually helps feeding, the shorter it is, the easier it is to experience jams.

[Black_Talon]

Most people seat the H&G 68 so the shoulder is about 1/16" above the case mouth. I've used .928" from the base of the case to the bullet shoulder for the past 30+ years and never have feeding issues with this style bullet.

[Leatherhead Bullets]

+1 on a little shoulder exposed and the crimp die. Often when they are flush, the case mouth gets hung up.

[lefty o]

by it being 3 guns, its probably your cartridge, but you say should be all reliable guns.... are they or are they not? if they run 230fmj's, and some HP's then id consider them reliable. if they are proven reliable, then time to start tailoring your load, bullet choice, seating depth, crimp, etc.

[bcr]

Ok thanks everybody. I'll try moving the book it forward and then a different crimp die.

[Larry Gibson]

What are you sizing the bullets at?

Are you using mixed cases?

Larry Gibson

[TES]

I switched to seat then crimp (2) die vs single. Then I switched to (2) good (high dollar) dies. Bullets drop in and out of the case gauge checker (50 hole) like my factory test rounds. If after the checker you are still having problems it is definitely a powder charge that is soft. I had to pull a few thousand due to this. I thought to my self it has to be the tolerances because I had been loading this particular load for three years and never had a problem......as it turns out the screw set on the charge bar moved and I was getting lite loads. Remember that loading great ammo is not hard to do but figuring out how to do it is very hard indeed.

[tomme boy]

Post a pic of the loaded rounds.

Measure the brass right at the crimp. I set my 45's to 0.471"-0.472" My barrel is a little looser than some. It is also been throated to shoot cast. So it eats everything.

Is it just hanging up that last little bit and you use your thumb to close the slide the rest of the way. This will help to find out what is going on. Or get a picture of the actual situation that it happening

[Dale53]

When loading the H&G #68 (mine is the Mihec correct copy) I taper crimp with a LEE factory crimp die to a mouth diameter of .470". Use this photo for a good description of how to seat the bullet regarding overall length of the loaded round. I seat to headspace on the bullet when using cast bullets. If using jacketed you need a bit more clearance (slightly shorter overall length):

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/1911Headspace.png (http://s269.photobucket.com/user/Dale53/media/1911Headspace.png.html)

In other words, use the barrel from YOUR 1911 as a gauge and drop the loaded round in the barrel. The base of the case should be flush with the barrel hood, as above. This is referred as the "plunk test"... This is THE correct overall length for YOUR pistol.

Dale53

[Char-Gar]

When reading the OP about the slide not going into battery on several pistols with the same load, the first thoughts in my mind is not enough slide momentum because of;

1. Recoil spring to heavy OR

2. Not enough pressure/velocity of the load OR

3. Dirty unlubricated pistol.

Anyway it sound like a slow slide to me, but who knows with just a few words online.

[TES]

This is easy...are you loading on the lite side of your charge if so up it to the middle.

Is it a new gun? If so polish the worn areas after hand cycling it a few hundred times.

After this it is a lite load or your tolerances are out...dont go past .125 OAL.

[bangerjim]

I had massive failure to load/"plop"/cycle in my 1911 45 ACP's

Two things fixed all problems 100%:

1. Size slugs to .451

2. Lee FCD

End of story. All styles and weights of 45's now cycle 100%.

Hope you figure out what works for you.

Unfortunately, you will get as many solutions/suggestions as days on the calendar!

bangerjim

[bcr]

I had massive failure to load/"plop"/cycle in my 1911 45 ACP's

Two things fixed all problems 100%:

1. Size slugs to .451

2. Lee FCD

End of story. All styles and weights of 45's now cycle 100%.

Hope you figure out what works for you.

Unfortunately, you will get as many solutions/suggestions as days on the calendar!

bangerjim

Haha, well this gives me a lot of things to try. Unfortunately I can only get to the range about once a month.

I slugged the barrel of the Fusion and sized 0.001" over. I had this problem with 4.0 gr. Bullseye, so I increased to 5.0 gr., which didn't seem to change anything.

The Fusion never had a malfunction with factory hollow points. The two Smiths are new. All were very clean. I haven't shot factory loads in the Smiths because I don't want to spend the money if I don't have to, and I'm trying to get through the rest of my life without shooting another jacketed bullet. I will measure in front of the case and post a pic if I have any left. I'd like to find a solution that lets me back down to the lighter load.

[MtGun44]

Taper crimp with a taper crimp die, not FCD and take the mouth to about .466-.467 as needed
to drop all the way. If it is a real H&G 68 set LOA to 1.250 to 1.260.

No or inadequate taper crimp is THE most common problem of failure to close on .45 ACP.

Bill

[bangerjim]

Haha, well this gives me a lot of things to try. Unfortunately I can only get to the range about once a month.

I slugged the barrel of the Fusion and sized 0.001" over. I had this problem with 4.0 gr. Bullseye, so I increased to 5.0 gr., which didn't seem to change anything.

The Fusion never had a malfunction with factory hollow points. The two Smiths are new. All were very clean. I haven't shot factory loads in the Smiths because I don't want to spend the money if I don't have to, and I'm trying to get through the rest of my life without shooting another jacketed bullet. I will measure in front of the case and post a pic if I have any left. I'd like to find a solution that lets me back down to the lighter load.

I bought/borrowed every style and brand I could find of factory/FMJ/HP 45ACP and all shot perfectly. Just could not get MOST of my cast loads to cycle reliably......until I did what I described above.

Thanks Larry!

Take it for what it's worth. A 451 Lee sizing die and Lee FCD are very small overall investments to prove to yourself what will and will not work for your situation. You can always sell them on here!

Nobody has brought up the $40 throat reamer yet! Another suggestion.

Good luck! Let us know what you finally arrive at. I know what fixed all my problems for my guns.

bangerjim

[bcr]

What are you sizing the bullets at?

Are you using mixed cases?

Larry Gibson

Looks like I'm sizing to .452.

All Federal cases.

[bcr]

Have you used any pin gages and measured the throats? You can get a single .4520ZM gage from Meyer Gage for less than $4 and use it to check barrel throats. It's one thing to look in the bore and see a throat, which is just freebore, but how big is it? This is the part that needs to be a tad over boolit diameter for it to reliably plunk test loaded ammo, AND to reliably go into battery with that ammo.

You shouldn't be forced to seat flush with the case mouth, as this lessens the COA measurement, which the longer it is, usually helps feeding, the shorter it is, the easier it is to experience jams.

DougGuy,

I don't understand what it is your suggesting I measure, can you describe the measurement a little bit more?

Thanks!

[bcr]

The mouth diameter is 0.472".

COL is 1.220".

The cartridges drop dead flush with the barrel hood on the 1911. They are just a hair below the level of the barrel hood on the Smiths.

119880119881

[OptimusPanda]

I had trouble like that with a 1911 and the lee 200g lwsc I had them loaded so the front driving band was just peeking out from the case mouth. Id get a failure to feed one or twice a mag. Loaded them longer to 1.25 and the problem went away..

[Char-Gar]

How can a fellow get the proper taper crimp on a round where the bullet shoulder is flush with the case mouth? I don't do that. I think that might cause some feeding issues, but I have never tried it, so I really don't know. In fact I don't know anybody that does that. I can think of no reason to load a round that short with the raw edges of the case mouth exposed. Those edges are going to drag on the chamber as the round transitions from the magazine to full battery in the chamber. It could be enough to interfere with the slide momentum. You might get by with this in a rattle-trap military gun, but not a good commercial auto-pistol.

I surmise that the OP is not taper crimping his rounds from the look of the pic and the fact that a proper tapered crimp would produce a case mouth of .468 - .470. The statement he makes that his using the Lee FCD and using the least crimp he can get by with tells me he does not understand the function of the crimp on the 45 ACP round. He needs to loose that Lee die and get a decent taper crimp die.

The purpose of the crimp is threefold , first to insure a smooth round that feeds well and does not drag on the case mouth, to ensure proper combustion of the powder and to keep the bullet where it belongs.

I have loaded over 1/4 million cast bullet rounds over the past 40 years for the 1911 pistol in 45 ACP and it is not difficult at all to get 100% reliability from the ammo. The firearm and magazines may present other issues, but there are no secrets about the ammo. However there are some basics that must not be forgotten and I think the OP is missing one or more of them.

Seat that bullet out so there is enough bullet body to get a proper taper crimp and load it with enough of the right powder to produce pressure in the range for which the pistol was designed and there should be no problems, unless the pistol is not properly sprung or has other issues. Most mechanical issues come from folks thinking they just must make some modifications to the pistol. Unless there is a manufacturing defect, autopistols for the 45 ACP come from the factory needing no modifications. Of course dirty pistols will sooner or later give problems.

Sub-Machine guns, have no feed ramps. The bolt slams the round from the magazine straight into the chamber and therefore they can take some pretty crappy ammo. However the autopistol tilt the round up as it leaves the magazine, slides it up the feed ramp and straightens it out before the slide slams in into battery. This out-up-over needs to be considered with ammo for the autopistol and the crimp plays an important part is this ballet of motion.

[tomme boy]

Load a couple so that there is a little bit of lead sticking out on the shoulder. I like to tell people the thinkness of your fingernail. Also try to close down the crimp to 0.470"-0.471" your barrel might just need a little more crimp.

Can you get a really good pic of the throat of each barrel? That will also help to see if what was brought up about the reamer. Look at the stickied post about throating above.

[seagiant]

Hi,
Jeez! I put the pic up in post #4 for a reason. This is my go to 45 ACP reload. It is now using a real H&G 68 clone from a brass Mihec mold. I loaded it for 20 years using a 6-cav LEE with the same set up.

I have used this cartridge in CZ,S&W, HK, Ruger,and to many 1911's to count! Never had a problem! I do use a "real" RCBS taper crimp die though!

[Char-Gar]

Taper crimp with a taper crimp die, not FCD and take the mouth to about .466-.467 as needed
to drop all the way. If it is a real H&G 68 set LOA to 1.250 to 1.260.

No or inadequate taper crimp is THE most common problem of failure to close on .45 ACP.


Bill

Yep that be true. The only thing I would add is I use a factory or USGI loaded round to set my taper crimp die and that produces a case mouth of .469 - .470.

As mentioned above, I have loaded lots and lots of ammo for the 45 autopistol and they have all been sized .452. I have never found that .001 larger or smaller has ever had any effect on reliable function.

[Char-Gar]

Hi,
Jeez! I put the pic up in post #4 for a reason. This is my go to 45 ACP reload. It is now using a real H&G 68 clone from a brass Mihec mold. I loaded it for 20 years using a 6-cav LEE with the same set up.

I have used this cartridge in CZ,S&W, HK, Ruger,and to many 1911's to count! Never had a problem! I do use a "real" RCBS taper crimp die though!

Yep, dat be da way to do it!

[Boogieman]

Lee still sells a taper crimp die , not the FCD die . I quit using my FCD when I found it was sizing the boolits in the case leaving them loose in the case with only the crimp holding them. The old Lee taper crimp die works fine for me.

[bcr]

Lee still sells a taper crimp die , not the FCD die . I quit using my FCD when I found it was sizing the boolits in the case leaving them loose in the case with only the crimp holding them. The old Lee taper crimp die works fine for me.

This is why I was trying to use a light crimp, because they are light loads and I don't want to size the boolits. I guess I will try a taper crimp die.

[RobS]

The Lee 45 ACP factory crimp die is a taper crimp die the thing that I as well as many others don't like is the carbide ring at the mouth of the die. This can create a few different problems ranging from swaged boolits due to the post sizing from the ring and the issue of potential loosening of the taper crimp as the boolits runs back through the carbide ring as the round exits the die. I didn't ever take note to the later of the two but others have noted this issue however the post sizing of the 45 acp die (I've had two) does in fact swage boolits.

Here's a good one though, the particular Lee factory crimp die in 45 Colt that I own, the carbide ring is just fine for boolits .454" and under meaning the die doesn't swage down on a boolit at those diameters.

[tomme boy]

If you already have the Lee FCD, pry out the carbide ring and use the die as the crimp die.

[Char-Gar]

This is why I was trying to use a light crimp, because they are light loads and I don't want to size the boolits. I guess I will try a taper crimp die.

As I started above, the purpose of a crimp has more to do with function than holding the bullet in place.

I don't know what you consider to be a "light load", but these pistols are designed and set up to run with 230 grain bullets traveling 850 fps. Use a lighter load and a lighter bullet and you are asking for function problems.

The Hensley and Gibbs 68 and it various clones is one of the best bullets for the 45 ACP round, when loaded correctly of course. It delivers the same level of accuracy at 900 fps as it does at 700 fps. Target shooters ran it slow to reduce recoil which aid them in controlling the pistol for accurate paper punching. But their pistols were set up and sprung different to function at the lower level of slide momentum.

When run at 850 fps, this bullet still delivers sterling accuracy, plus make an excellent field and defense load. Running them slower won't prolong the life of your pistol in any significant way.

If you will seat the bullet out, so the case mouth can get a good taper crimp on the body and load it to 850 fps, you won't be back here with more function issues in your pistols.

As a bonus, here is how to adjust your new 45 ACP taper crimp die. I have both RCBS and Lyman dies for this purpose and they both work fine. Here is how;

1. Using a factory loaded round in the shell holder run the ram up as far as it will go.
2. Screw the taper crimp round down on the factory round as hard as you can, using only hand pressure and no tools.
3. With the pressure still on the die, set the lock ring and you are good to go. You will now have a taper crimp on the mouth that measures the same as factory ammo, which will be .469 - .470.

[bcr]

Thanks I am learning a lot, that's why I asked!

[Char-Gar]

Thanks I am learning a lot, that's why I asked!

We all learn by asking, reading, watching or by trial and error. Asking and reading provides the quickest results.

The 45 ACP round and the autopistol have been around now for over 100 years and folks have been handloading cast bullet for the round and pistol for just as long. This combination comes from the same period of time, more or less, as did the flying machine and the horseless carriage.

For generations it was the "service pistol" and matches were designed around it. Billions of round have been loaded by various factories and arsenals over the period with at least the same number of handloads being produced in home shops. The bottom line is there are no secrets or undiscovered ways of making the round and the pistol work together to produce good results.

The round and pistol is still very popular today and many new shooters are taking it up, but lack the history of how to do it right. The net results is lots of folks are trying to reinvent the wheel with very mixed results. We see them show up on this board with regularity, trying to figure out what they are doing wrong.

Now, here is a gratuitous rant on the subject, that is not aimed at you, so don't take it personal, but it will make me feel better to say it, to wit;

There is money to be made selling reloading dies, tools and all sorts of parts and improved gizmos to make these pistols do better, or so the propaganda says. One guys spends his money and think he is better off, so he starts to trumpet this wonderful new way of doing it, and so the snowball rolls down the hill. Often all a fellow gets for his money is poor function and frustration and he wonders why? The purveyors of such things, all to often, are just preying on the uninformed and the gullible.

When folks come to the internet with issues related to the round and the pistol, what he gets is often the blind leading the blind with folks parroting what they have read or heard from somebody else. All to often they lack the deep personal experience to separate the wheat from the chaff, and the cycle of misinformation and frustration continues.

Again, this is not aimed at you dear OP/bcr, just just me venting my spleen on my own set of frustrations.

All the best and good shooting...Charles Graff

[KYCaster]

The mouth diameter is 0.472".

COL is 1.220".

The cartridges drop dead flush with the barrel hood on the 1911. They are just a hair below the level of the barrel hood on the Smiths.

119880119881


OAL is too short and not enough crimp.....you haven't even straightened out the flair.

If the Lee FCD is the solution to your problem, you don't understand how to load handgun ammo.

Jerry

[beroen]

Sounds like this is a pretty popular boolet. If you get your die adjusted right is it possible to seat and crimp in one step with these?

Just seems a matter of adjusting the seater and die in conjunction with each other.
Is it just a adjustment issue and using 2 dies makes that easier?

If you pull out the collar in a lee FCD. does it act like a taper crimp die?

[Char-Gar]

Sounds like this is a pretty popular boolet. If you get your die adjusted right is it possible to seat and crimp in one step with these?

Just seems a matter of adjusting the seater and die in conjunction with each other.
Is it just a adjustment issue and using 2 dies makes that easier?

If you pull out the collar in a lee FCD. does it act like a taper crimp die?

If the case mouth is to be roll crimped into a generous crimp groove on the bullet, it is entirely possible to seat and crimp with one die in one step.

However this bullet does not have a crimp die and seating and crimping in two separate operations will give the best results.

I know nothing about a Lee Factory Crimp die, so I can't comment on that question.

[tomme boy]

I seat and crimp in one die and have zero problems.

[gtgeorge]

I shoot about 500 of these every month for several years and will say the advice on the OAL 1.25, taper crimp at .470 and a .452 #68 clone just plain works in every 1911 I have tried them in.

[seagiant]

Hi,
When I was a young man I actually shot in some local IPSC matches in my loal Gun Club. I had not been reloading long and I was having function problems for no apparent reason?

One of the match directors who also happened to own a Gun Shop asked me if I was taper crimping as a 4th operation in the reload process? I said no I had a 3 die set. He told me to try a dedicated taper crimp die which I did and never looked back.

I have used Bill Wilson's specs on reloading the 45 ACP and have not had a problem since! As some here can get good ammo with a 3 die set maybe at the time being a new reloader I wasn't adjusting the seater/crimp die correctly?

What I do know is the dedicated taper crimp die solved my problem and has been working great ever since!

[Char-Gar]

Seagiant... I have noticed that the younger generations who grew up in the digital age, avoid if at all possible, doing things that require more than the bare minimum of time, energy and steps. This includes using the least amount of reloading dies, in the least amount of steps with the least expenditure of time and effort.

Although I don't like it, I am reconciled that the world is being turned over to people in search of a short cut. Sadly this isn't just about reloading, but about everything in life.

Now I suppose some folks will take umbrage at this point of view, but I knew the old and know the new and have been paying attention as I went along this path of live in America.

[Love Life]

Your loaded rounds should have a taper crimp like this:

[tomme boy]

Them look just like my 45's that I load with a 3 die set up. The problem is when the barrel is not throated right to begin with.

[Love Life]

Them look just like my 45's that I load with a 3 die set up. The problem is when the barrel is not throated right to begin with.

These are loaded with a 4 die set. I want to say a set of Dillon dies. I also use a RCBS 4 die set with taper crimp die for my single stage load development.

Now, I have used a 3 die set with the seat/crimp happening on the same step. As long as I trimmed all my brass to a uniform length I had no issues.

[MtGun44]

"Trimming .45 ACP brass to a uniform overall length". . . . . . Wow. There is a man
dedicated to reloading and with plenty of spare time. Or maybe reloading 50 rds
at a batch rather than the 400 per hour and several thousand a month that I was
loading when I was competing.

Bill

[Love Life]

Every piece of pistol brass I get is sized and trimmed to length. I hooked up a drill to my RCBS trimmer and it makes chewing through a 1,000 or so pieces of brass an afternoon affair.

I load on a Dillon RL550B. If I trim brass for an our a night all week I usually run out of brass by the weekend. I only trim it once.

Last batch of 45 acp I sized and trimmed was 3,000 pieces. Took me right at 7 days in between other stuff I do.

I shoot and load a lot, but I also take the time to trim my brass to ensure a uniform crimp.

[Char-Gar]

My name is Charles and I am a brass trimmer! It is sort of embarrassing to admit, in these days and times, but I actually do trim brass for a uniform crimp, either taper or roll. To make things worse, I still use and old hand cranked Wilson and punch the cases in an out of the case holder with an arbor press.

Many of these are loaded with a Lyman/Ideal 310 tool. If I want to step up to high tech a Pacific C press. If time and production is an issue a go full out with a Redding turret press.

I contracted this abhorrent behavior many years ago from people who were dedicated to precision handloading. A pox on their houses for flinging this curse on me.

[Groo]

Groo here
As was told to me [by an "old smith and shooter] so I tell to you.
Forget, trimming, bullet size,or crimp measurements.
One # make a dummy and set the boolet to the max length of your smallest mag. [ usually a 1911]
Do not crimp but make mouth of case smooth.
Pull barrels and do a chamber test,[or take the shortest one]
Set boolet to chamber flush in shortest chamber[ if the dummy fits all ready your done]
Set dies to the dummy , add a tamper crimp [ LCD die if you have match or tight chamber]
Make 50 and shoot. [ mid range load of Unique ets is fine]
If all guns feed ,done if not , seat boolet deeper until they do.
Feeeze and enjoy.
PS I have loaded auto shells this way for years and once the correct length is found for the boolet, most any
pistol will feed well.
There are a "Few" problem children but in general guns all feed the same .

[Char-Gar]

Groo here
As was told to me [by an "old smith and shooter] so I tell to you.
Forget, trimming, bullet size,or crimp measurements.
One # make a dummy and set the boolet to the max length of your smallest mag. [ usually a 1911]
Do not crimp but make mouth of case smooth.
Pull barrels and do a chamber test,[or take the shortest one]
Set boolet to chamber flush in shortest chamber[ if the dummy fits all ready your done]
Set dies to the dummy , add a tamper crimp [ LCD die if you have match or tight chamber]
Make 50 and shoot. [ mid range load of Unique ets is fine]
If all guns feed ,done if not , seat boolet deeper until they do.
Feeeze and enjoy.
PS I have loaded auto shells this way for years and once the correct length is found for the boolet, most any
pistol will feed well.
There are a "Few" problem children but in general guns all feed the same .

I agree that is a good approach and about what I do. I do trim cases though to a uniform length. It you are shooting for the X-Ring anything you can do to make your rounds uniform is worth the effort. I always use a taper crimp on all autopistol rounds.

[enfieldphile]

]+1 on a little shoulder exposed and the crimp die[/B]. Often when they are flush, the case mouth gets hung up.

+2! A 1/16 of exposed shoulder and a taper crimp die are the ticket.

[MtGun44]

God bless you brass trimmers, but I do not have the time or inclination
for "ordinary loads". I do it for all my ammo in rifles and probably should
do some testing in .45 ACP to see if it makes a detectable difference in true
target match ammo (as opposed to IPSC match ammo - and entirely different
animal!). For that matter, I guess trying it in .38 Spl and such wouldn't hurt -
darnit Char-Gar --- you just made a bunch of added work for me. ;-)

Seagiant - that is the role I had for a few decades in our IPSC club, and I had
a lot of new folks that had not TCed their .45 ACP ammo and it cured their
issues, too. It was THE #1 problem with new reloaders in that cartridge.

I try to explain it, but many folks don't seem to get it.

Bill