.45LC - short reamed cylinders?

[cpaspr]

This is not the usual complaint with a Ruger .45LC revolver, that of too tight throats on the front of the cylinders. Mine are all right at .452".

The revolver is a new, Ruger .45LC/.45ACP convertible, with a 5.5" barrel.

The max length of cases is supposed to be 1.285". I've got some right at that, but most are a few thousandths shorter (all previously fired-most probably just once). When I drop 6 sized, deprimed cases in, with the loading gate open I can spin the cylinder freely. Ditto with six sized and primed only cases. The problem comes when I drop six loaded rounds in. They drop right in, but when I start moving the cylinder to the right to drop the next round in the cartridge starts scraping the frame behind the cylinder. Loaded with six, the cylinder turns when you cock it or manually rotate it with the loading gate open, but it will not free spin. Also, the ejector rod will not easily push loaded rounds out. Heck, never mind easily. It won't push them out at all unless I might possibly really reef on it, and I refuse to try that. They should drop out, and they won't. I've simply put an Allen wrench on the nose of the boolit (262gr Keith SWC) and hit it with my hand to get them out.

I pulled the cylinder last night, and near as I can tell the straight wall portion of the cylinder (for the one or two holes I checked) mic'ed at around 1.250". At least .035" short.

I'm going to drop six loaded rounds into the cylinder when it's out of the gun, and look for daylight between the rim and the cylinder. I want to get my hands on some factory rounds the check as well, and intend to load six cast boolits into some Hornady cases I have. Those are all .060" shorter than the Starline/Federal/Herters cases I've otherwise loaded. If the Hornadys chamber fine, it will be further evidence that the cylinder was short bored. (I want to check the factory rounds simply to be able to tell Ruger that it won't chamber factory ammo if they don't work either.)

Am I on the right track here?

[Mohavedog]

I always hate to be the first to reply, but since your empty brass chambers properly I think you have a problem with the dia of your loaded boolit. Your boolit may be expanding the case a bit too much. Have you miked your loaded dia and compared to the empty brass? Also, maybe not enough crimp on the case mouth. Are you roll crimping? That's what I would check first. Good luck.
Mohavedog

[DougGuy]

Take a black sharpie marker and color solid the last 1/8" of the case, and the driving band of the boolit. Chamber the rounds, push them in with your fingers, then eject them. I think you will find that the tightness is in the cylinder throats and not the charge hole itself. in which case, a .4525" reamer put into the throats and cleaned up with a hone should cure the problem!

Edit: I do a LOT of Ruger cylinders, I have yet to see a newer one with larger than .451" throats. I feel the problem may be undersize throats, the sharpie marker will wear off where the boolit is binding in the cylinder.. Also, try pushing the boolit into the cylinder throats from the front, I bet they won't go without forcing them, right there would be the problem..

Here's a .45 ACP cylinder I did today, it won't put up a fight any longer!

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/DSC03086_zpsed7689a6.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/DSC03086_zpsed7689a6.jpg.html)

[Char-Gar]

cpaspr....The problem is not your handgun. Here are the likely culprits in the order of probability.

1. The front driving band of your loaded round, the one outside of the case, not fully entering the charge hole throat either due to being too large or too long.

2. Your primers are not fully seated in the pockets.

As your primers and sized cases will work fine, the smart money is on the bullet. The fact that the loaded rounds don't eject easy is another strong indicator that the rounds are too tight in the throats.

I have a Ruger 5.5" Flattop 45 Convertible with .452 throats. A round loaded with .452 bullet will drop right in, but if you are not wiping your loaded rounds or have tumble lube on the front driving bands, all bets are off. If you are using store bought bullets, they just might be a smidge larger than .452. You need to measure the front driving band with a good micrometer to know the actual true size.

These revolvers are the finest Ruger has made in my lifetime, which spans the entire production of Ruger and I sure WOULD NOT ream the charge holes larger. Adapt your loading to the gun and not the other way around.

[DougGuy]

1. The front driving band of your loaded round, the one outside of the case, not fully entering the cylinder throat

Char-gar he has factory throats. I have yet to see one that will allow a .452" boolit to be pushed into the throats as shipped from the factory.

[5Shot]

If you can fully seat an empty piece of sized brass, with just a slight bell, it is what has already been said...bullets too big for throats. I run into this with my custom...if the front driving band is more than 0.452 there is no way it is going to chamber.

[Char-Gar]

Char-gar he has factory throats. I have yet to see one that will allow a .452" boolit to be pushed into the throats as shipped from the factory.

Take a look at the Ruger Flattop pic in my above post and then you will see a Ruger with factory throats measures a true. 452 and will accept loads with a true .452 bullets. They were measured clean with a Starrett hole gage and a Starrett micrometer that measures to .0001. I have been doing this for 50 years and I know how to use precision measuring tools.

I don't try and push bullet through throats, I measure the throats. Bullets are seldom round, without nicks and lube mess. They are not useful gadgets for giving precise information about throats.

When Ruger made this limited run of Flattop convertible for Lipseys, Lipsey's held their feet to the fire on specs. Each charge hole was reamed separately to minimum specification and with .452 throats. The net result is a factory Ruger SA revolver in 45 Colt/45 ACP, that will shoot like a house-a-fire with no need of modification. These are not your average Ruger handguns.

You will recall that most revolver charge holes have a tapered leade on the end that accommodate the top driving band unless it is quite long. I can load rounds with the Lyman Keith SWC sized .454 and have the drop into the cylinder of the above pistol. Accuracy is notable better with .452 but .454 bullet will work just fine.

[DougGuy]

Take a look at the Ruger Flattop pic in my above post and then you will see a Ruger with factory throats measures a true. 452 and will accept loads with a true .452 bullets.

Yes but yours is an older one, he states his is a newer one. I have seen older ones with .454" throats and I had one with .456" throats from the factory. I have also seen a few newer revolvers with absolutely ZERO thread choke! Beautiful, smooth, shiny, undistorted, unchoked bores with faint rollmarkings, which means no distortion inside the bore behind the wording. They have at least been paying attention to some details.

[C. Latch]

I have heard that the new flattops measure .452 consistently. No idea why the regular blackhawks do not. Yo'd think it would be easy to make cylinders and barrels to a certain spec with very little deviation....I guess most shooters simply do not care.

[cpaspr]

Thanks for the responses so far. I'll do more checking tonight when I get home.

The boolits were all sized at .452" through a Lee push-thru sizing die prior to loading. As dropped was bigger.

I'll re-read all responses before I do anything.

[Char-Gar]

Yes but yours is an older one, he states his is a newer one. I have seen older ones with .454" throats and I had one with .456" throats from the factory. I have also seen a few newer revolvers with absolutely ZERO thread choke! Beautiful, smooth, shiny, undistorted, unchoked bores with faint rollmarkings, which means no distortion inside the bore behind the wording. They have at least been paying attention to some details.

Mine is about one year old fresh from the factory. I take it you are not familiar with this new run of Flattop 45 Colt/ACP for Lipsey's.

The older Rugers which your reference were made decades ago and were not flattop frames having the rear sight ears and built on the larger New Model Blackhawk frames. These new ones are built on the smaller New Vaquero size frame.

[DougGuy]

I thought yours was older than that. Did you measure with a pin gage or boolit? The ones I have been doing lately have been current runs of both medium frame and large framed guns. The most consistent and SMOOTH throats have been the medium frame guns, but they are all pinning out at .451" with the occasional .4505" .45 ACP cylinder. I have yet to see a new medium frame .45 cylinder that will take a .452" pin gage. The ones I have done have not taken a .4515" so far, and they have been a couple dozen at least, with maybe 7-8 of those being pairs from convertibles. Not sure how many of those were Lipsey's run, or if the Lipsey's run specifically addresses cylinder throat diameters.

I get about half and half medium frame .45s and large frame .45s to do, so there have been enough of the newer ones to get an idea of how the throats are running.

[Nueces]

My pair of 45 Vaqueros of 2013 are spot on 0.452" and the bores are the prettiest smooth bright ones I've seen on factory guns. My brand new Flat Top 45 convertible had to go to DougGuy as the throats were too small.

[Char-Gar]

I thought yours was older than that. Did you measure with a pin gage or boolit? The ones I have been doing lately have been current runs of both medium frame and large framed guns. The most consistent and SMOOTH throats have been the medium frame guns, but they are all pinning out at .451" with the occasional .4505" .45 ACP cylinder. I have yet to see a new medium frame .45 cylinder that will take a .452" pin gage. The ones I have done have not taken a .4515" so far, and they have been a couple dozen at least, with maybe 7-8 of those being pairs from convertibles. Not sure how many of those were Lipsey's run, or if the Lipsey's run specifically addresses cylinder throat diameters.

I get about half and half medium frame .45s and large frame .45s to do, so there have been enough of the newer ones to get an idea of how the throats are running.

You are not really reading my posts now are you? Read No. 7 for answers to all of you questions.

[RobS]

I have a Lipsey Flat Top stainless 5.5" convertible and both cylinders needed reamed and so I did such. The end shake on the Flat Top (.007) is also more than my Ruger Bisley 5.5 stainless (.002) and probably running near max for specification. Oh, the barrel or front sight isn't right as the rear sight blade needs to be adjusted almost all the way to the right..........so much for being precisely finished for Lipsey. I will have to say though the trigger is well done on the Lipsey revolver.

[cpaspr]

Okay. Here's the latest:

The black marker test didn't really rub anything off.

I re-mic'ed everything. The cylinder is 1.703" long. From the front of the cylinder down to the bottom of the .452" section is about .400" So that leaves 1.303" for the cartridge and the front driving band, and there is a rough tapered section of about a 1/16th of an inch between the .452" section and the .480+" diameter section for the case. The cartridges from the top of the rim to the top of the top driving band are 1.333". So, the driving band (which measures .452"-.453" and is not quite round as char-gar pointed out) is bumping into that taper between the cylinder throat and the larger bottom hole. The nose of the boolits is .400" just ahead of the top driving band.

I cleaned the cylinder holes with a brass bristle brush, then pulled a paper towel through each hole, back to front. That cleaned them up nicely, though I'd only shot about two dozen rounds through it so far. While all six rounds were still sticky, I was able to eject them with the ejector rod fairly easily. I wouldn't have thought (rather obvious that I didn't) that just that little amount of grunge in the cylinder holes could make them stick that much.

So, for these bullets (Lyman 454424, I think), I guess I either need to just live with the knowledge that they're long and the back of the cartridge will rub the frame a little, or crimp them over the driving bands.

So, my next question is this: is crimping over the front driving band of this boolit really an acceptable option for me?

[Char-Gar]

I have a Lipsey Flat Top stainless 5.5" convertible and both cylinders needed reamed and so I did such. The end shake on the Flat Top (.007) is also more than my Ruger Bisley 5.5 stainless (.002) and probably running near max for specification. Oh, the barrel or front sight isn't right as the rear sight blade needs to be adjusted almost all the way to the right..........so much for being precisely finished for Lipsey. I will have to say though the trigger is well done on the Lipsey revolver.

At the same time I ordered my Flattop in carbon steel, the gun shop owner ordered one in stainless steel for himself. The stainless one showed visible machine marks on the frame and barrel and in general was as not well done.

I don't know enough about metals to make an informed comment but in general I shy away from stainless firearms if I have a choice. I do have several Smith & Wesson stainless six guns that are very nice though.

[DougGuy]

Okay.
So, my next question is this: is crimping over the front driving band of this boolit really an acceptable option for me?

That driving band -should- go into the throat. It gives it a LOT more stability when it's in the throat, and if it won't fit in there, that's why we ream the throats. Seating deeper in the case is not going to help it any accuracy wise, since the case will be "laying" in the charge hole and won't necessarily be aligned with the throat until the boolit is halfway out of the case. Which, by the way, will size the boolit down smaller, so it's a moot point. Seating deeper in the case without modifying the powder charge weight to allow for less case volume can dramatically increase pressures, it doesn't make sense to create an additional problem to accommodate an existing problem, when the right thing to do is ream the cylinder throats so they will allow you to chamber the boolit as loaded properly. I would be glad to help.

Also, got this in a PM last night from the owner of the Lipsey's NM Flattop Convertible whose photo I used in an earlier post in this thread:



For the record

The history of that acp cylinder is one of a 4 5/8 Lipsey flattop convertable that I just purchased new a couple of months ago. I was just curious if you remember what you measured the throats at before you started. I used a borrowed set of pin gauges and got .451.


I could not get a .451" pilot into the throats, that's the pilot I use most commonly on these medium frame cylinders, I could -almost- get a .4505" pilot in there, but ended up using a .450" pilot which fit very snugly into all 6 throats. So much for holding one's feet to the fire..

[RobS]

That driving band -should- go into the throat. It gives it a LOT more stability when it's in the throat, and if it won't fit in there, that's why we ream the throats. Seating deeper in the case is not going to help it any accuracy wise, since the case will be "laying" in the charge hole and won't necessarily be aligned with the throat until the boolit is halfway out of the case. Which, by the way, will size the boolit down smaller, so it's a moot point. Seating deeper in the case without modifying the powder charge weight to allow for less case volume can dramatically increase pressures, it doesn't make sense to create an additional problem to accommodate an existing problem, when the right thing to do is ream the cylinder throats so they will allow you to chamber the boolit as loaded properly. I would be glad to help.

Also, got this in a PM last night from the owner of the Lipsey's NM Flattop Convertible whose photo I used in an earlier post in this thread:

[/LIST]

I could not get a .451" pilot into the throats, that's the pilot I use most commonly on these medium frame cylinders, I could -almost- get a .4505" pilot in there, but ended up using a .450" pilot which fit very snugly into all 6 throats. So much for holding one's feet to the fire..

IIRC, I also used the .4500" pilot on the Flat Top and my Bisley was worse where I ended up using a .4490" pilot.

[Char-Gar]

Any of you guys reaming out the new Lipsey's Flattop 45 cylinders have any real no fooling before and after pictures of groups fired on paper?

[Brett Ross]

I have a 2 year old biesley that I cannot begin to push a .452 sized boollit through. As soon as my finances allow, both cly,s will be sent off to be reamed. Mine is stainless, sounds like they have the issue more often, not sure why.

[RobS]

Any of you guys reaming out the new Lipsey's Flattop 45 cylinders have any real no fooling before and after pictures of groups fired on paper?

Wish I did........... the Lipsey pissed me off so much I walked off the range with a leaded barrel and poor accuracy followed by the sight issue being discovered. The Lipsey was going to be the first time I reamed a cylinder so I didn't know what to expect so my initial thought was to try and fire it first and if things were good I wasn't going to mess with it i.e. if it works don't try and fix it.

Consequently though, I didn't even think twice when I received my Bisley with tight throats, never even fired a single round through it before I reamed the cylinder throats. First time at the ranged accuracy was excellent.

Night and Day difference.

[doc1876]

When I got my Lipsey in .44, I had this discussion with dougguy, and I am glad I did. It did not need work, and I was ready to send it to him, but thanks to his knowledge, I didn't waist his time or mine. I really think if you follow his advice. You will be satisfied.

[1_Ogre]

cpaspr....The problem is not your handgun. Here are the likely culprits in the order of probability.

1. The front driving band of your loaded round, the one outside of the case, not fully entering the charge hole throat either due to being too large or too long.

2. Your primers are not fully seated in the pockets.

As your primers and sized cases will work fine, the smart money is on the bullet. The fact that the loaded rounds don't eject easy is another strong indicator that the rounds are too tight in the throats.

I have a Ruger 5.5" Flattop 45 Convertible with .452 throats. A round loaded with .452 bullet will drop right in, but if you are not wiping your loaded rounds or have tumble lube on the front driving bands, all bets are off. If you are using store bought bullets, they just might be a smidge larger than .452. You need to measure the front driving band with a good micrometer to know the actual true size.

These revolvers are the finest Ruger has made in my lifetime, which spans the entire production of Ruger and I sure WOULD NOT ream the charge holes larger. Adapt your loading to the gun and not the other way around.

I agree totally. I own only Ruger 3 screws, 1 being in 45LC. I cast/lube not tumble lube and have never had a problem, even when shooting 325gr wrist busters. Sounds like there's a boolit sizing problem to me also.

[1_Ogre]

Well, at least it isn't a Colt, their QC has dumped recently

[bvisteve]

I had the same problem. Try a crimp of .4715-.472 with a col of 1.250 and a 200gr lswc These work great in my 1911 and my Ruger. Also I bench check for fit. A revolver plunk test if you will. At the range yesterday I had no problems with either gun.

[cpaspr]

I had the same problem. Try a crimp of .4715-.472 with a col of 1.250 and a 200gr lswc These work great in my 1911 and my Ruger. Also I bench check for fit. A revolver plunk test if you will. At the range yesterday I had no problems with either gun.

1.250"?

bvisteve, I think you're talking about rounds for a .45ACP cylinder. I'm not having problems with that one.

This thread is about the .45LC cylinder.

[bvisteve]

Your right I misread your problem. My 45lc reloads are 1.595 col .4745 neck in a 1.277 oal case and a 230 gr lrn cast bullet. These also shot fine in the 45lc cyl. These cases are new starline.

[enfieldphile]

OP, Try a REDDING PROFILE CRIMP Die.

It's a combination of taper and roll crimp. It will reduce the case on a very slight angle, and still give you a roll crimp to boot.

[cpaspr]

enfieldphile - thanks for the advice, but I don't think it will help.

As I mentioned in post 16, the length of the shell that actually goes in the cylinder hole plus the front driving band is 1.333". There was only 1.303" available, so that means I'm shoving at least .030" of my front driving band into the cylinder throat. And if my throats are tighter than my boolit's driving band, it doesn't matter what crimp die I use. I'll still wedge the round in the cylinder and they won't drop back out like they should.

I'll be sending the cylinder to Doug when finances loosen up a bit.