Why Smokeless?

[ColColt]

Maybe I'm behind the times but I don't follow those that buy a Sharp's or Pedersoli Rolling Block of a given caliber to fire smokeless powder in it. Why? these rifles and most calibers were originally meant for black powder. I have a 45-70, had a 40-70SS and a 38-55. They never saw the first dose of 4759, Trail Boss, 2400 or any other smokeless powder. To me that just takes away the fun of it all. You may as well just buy a 30-06 and load it with H4895.

For sure none ever had a J-bullet through them and never will.

[country gent]

I was recently chatting between relays at a BPCR match with a friend who ask why I still shot black powder in my rifles. He told how much easier it was to clean smokeless and less corrosion issues He gave the whole "speal". He then after next relay called me over He brushed and patched with solvent then brushed again and 3 more patches extolling the last patch cleaned as much easier than black. My 40- 65 I brush 4-5 strokes with Windex or ballistol and water and patch with 2-3 patches, last patch is just a very light grey streaks. Most think black powder is a issue to clean and work with.

[ColColt]

When I go to the range I take a bottle of Windex with Vinegar, patches, decapper and a jug of warm soapy water for dropping the cases in for later tumbling. It's all part of it and I'd rather clean a BP rifle than my 270 Winchester...less time and trouble.

When I use to shoot BP pistols I made the mistake early on of cleaning it in the kitchen sink with hot soapy water. I was immediately run out of the house. The smell permeated the entire house.

[country gent]

I got caught cleaning a pair of stainless ruger old armies in the dishwasher. Once was enough for that

[ColColt]

Yep, we've all spent a little time in the dog house. I found Windex with Vinegar outside is much more preferable.

[NoAngel]

I for sure wouldn't run a jacketed bullet just because they offer nothing for performance in these types of cartridges. As far as smokeless powder, I gotta disagree. Some folks don't want the hassle involved in using Black. It's the whole reason I don't shoot corrosive surplus or own a muzzle loader.....and I have really wanted a muzzle loader for years.
I understand many of you do not consider it a hassle, but many people do. Different strokes for different folks.
I have to believe if you could travel back in time and ask a man from days of yore, they would opt for smokeless based on the fact that it's cleaner, easier to clean up after and fouling isn't a real problem with extended shooting sessions.
That steps on some toes amongst the purists but practicality and being an enthusiast have no relation. Many of you still believe the Garand to be a glorious weapon of battle but if you were able to offer WWII soldiers a selective fire SCAR17 in .308 they woulda jumped on it.

[oldred]

Different strokes for different folks I suppose, not very long ago at all I said I would never shoot BP in my cartridge rifles but I did shoot the real thing in my muzzle loader. Curiosity got the best of me and I tried BP (real BP) in my 45-90 to see what the fuss was all about and I was instantly hooked! I have even started shooting BP in my 45/70 Marlin and I will agree that cleaning is rather poor excuse if that's the only reason, some folks however don't bother cleaning smokeless after every shooting session so maybe it might be an excuse for them but whatever the reason it's really none of my business. I still shoot smokeless sometimes, depends on the situation, so I can see it from both points of view but in any case what someone wants to shoot in their own rifle is up to them. One thing I really don't understand is why someone would shoot any of the subs, the subs are not BP and they look, smell, load and shoot different than real BP and are even more corrosive and clean critical so what's the point in using them? If BP is not the choice why bother with a sub and why not just shoot an appropriate smokeless because neither is like shooting real BP. However, again it's nothing to me so if that's what they want to do it's their rifle and they are paying for the powder so whatever floats their boat I suppose.

The bottom line is this is supposed to be a fun sport and whatever is the most enjoyment, as long as it's safe, is fine by me. I like to encourage folks to try BP but encouragement and explaining about why I found it to be so much fun is as far as I would go. I would never try to coerce anyone to switch from what they want to use, be it smokeless, real BP or one of the subs, because for whatever their reasons it's what THEY want for THEIR rifle and if they are missing out on the real fun that's their loss not mine.

[EDG]

In my case I have zero interest in BP. My interest is in the rifles and the sights. The powder is nothing but the chemistry that provides the propellant. Your loads take 70 grains to deliver the same velocity my loads give with 24 grains.
I shoot BP velocities just like everyone else. To me these rifles are like shooting a large heavy .22LR.

There are a variety of arguments for BP that get used

1. Smokeless is usually associated with jacketed bullets. I shoot smokeless with cast bullets only. So the jacketed bullet fouling and cleaning argument means nothing.
Easier cleaning with BP means nothing if compared to cast bullets with smokeless. ALOX used in smokeless cast bullet lubes is a rust preventative. I usually run a patch wet with Hoppe's through then a dry patch and another wet patch. That is it.

2. Where cleaning is really an issue - some rifles are difficult to strip down and reassemble. Smokeless has a definite advantage with some of these.

Yes I have considered BP and will probably do it some day out of curiosity. I am not a competitor though so nothing compels me to use BP.
I have plenty of other projects ahead of BP on my list.

[ColColt]

Folks can do as they will. It's their money and their rifles. I shoot smokeless in my .222, 270's, 7x57, 243 and 22-250. I wouldn't consider BP in them as they weren't designed as such and would not be near as efficient. I've gotten .250" groups with the .222 and 3/4" groups with the 270 and 7x57. However, I've also gotten 1" groups with my Browning 45-70 with 64 gr of Swiss 1.5 and that's not with a Leupold or Zeiss 6.5-20x scope. That's with iron sights. So, for me, I'm a happy camper using the powders the rifles and style were made for. I likr the difference in recoil and the noise BP produces over the sharp crack from the 270...BP smells pretty good as well and I like the ten second lag after the smoke clears before I can see my target.:smile:

[pworley1]

The use of smokeless powder is just an option. Some of us like to use all our options.

[ColColt]

Nothing wrong with that at all. The one good thing about smokeless is you don't have to fill the case like you do with BP. As little as 3-4 gr of some powder can propel a 158 gr lead bullet and have an inch of space or more between the powder and the base of the bullet. Don't try that with black powder. There's not a nickel's worth of difference in clean up I've found. You don't have to disassemble a black powder rifle to clean it appropriately.

I just never liked the idea of smokeless in a large BP case and having to fill it up with grits or Dacron.

[oldred]

You don't have to disassemble a black powder rifle to clean it appropriately.

I just never liked the idea of smokeless in a large BP case and having to fill it up with grits or Dacron.


I agree that disassembly of the rifle is not required, however cleaning of both the rifle and the cases is more urgent although that too is a non-issue as long as it is done in a timely manner.


Filling large cases with inert fillers is not necessary in most calibers, I shoot both 45/70 and 45/90 without fillers. Even the 45/90 when used with the right smokeless powder is a nearly full case, no room for filler with either 400 or 500 gr bullets, and this can be at or only slightly above BP pressures so that doesn't have to be an issue either. We often hear that the reason these calibers should be loaded only with BP is they were "designed" only for BP, actually they were simply designed back when BP was all that was available so that doesn't necessarily mean something else could not be substituted. What I have found is that the argument that BP is the best for accuracy in these rounds is in fact just that a FACT! At least it has been for me but fellows let's face it some folks simply don't want the fuss of shooting BP and while it doesn't bother some of us others may find it more trouble than it's worth. Just because a person does not want to have to deal with fouling issues, extra corrosion details for both the rifle and the cases and the general dirty nature of BP does not mean they should not be able to enjoy shooting the old style rifles and cartridges. What is just part of the fun to some of us is not so much fun to others so I suppose that's why some folks had rather use smokeless.

[ColColt]

i dont find the cleanup any worse than with smokeless. After each shot I use the blow tube to soften the fouling...takes all of a few seconds. You're going to wait longer than that between shots with a FW rifle to cool it anyway. After each session and I'm ready to leave I take a 2-3" square patch, spray it with Windex with Vinegar, run it through the bore followed by another and then several dry patches. One last one with a bit of oil on it and that does it for the barrel. I swab out the chamber and breach block area, etc. That's no more than I'd do with smokeless.

When I get home the cases go into the Thumler's Tumbler for a few hours and the cases look as new. I do the same thing with smokeless cartridges. For me it's a labor of love and no more or less time spent. I understand others may not like using BP and I'm still trying to figure out why in light of the simplicity of using it. I spend more time preparing .222 cases and loads than I do for the 45-70. I already know what this rifle likes so I just neck size the cases, fill 'er up with the right amount of powder, insert wad, press bullet on top if slip fit or a light run through the size die to eliminate the flare and that's it.

It is nice to have a choice, however but for rifles such as the Browning I'd choose BP over smokeless and leave that to the Model 70's.

[Love Life]

I like using BP in my 45 Colt because it is easy to load and the cleaning is really a non issue. Case of powder, 454190, boom, grab the moose milk...

Plus, there is something about the actual "BOOM" of BP. I've yet to use it in rifles, but that day is coming. CajunShooter helped me get started. Speaking of him, has anybody heard from him lately?

[EDG]

Perhaps you have never used 5744 or SR4759.
Many of the people that preach against smokeless in a BPCR have a hang up with smokeless. They don't like the idea of smokeless and they have NEVER EVER TRIED IT WITH CAST BULLETS. So you get objections about using fillers like grits and dacron. I have been loading for the 45-70 since 1972 and I have never used a filler.
I have read a lot of information about loading the 45-70 with cast bullets and smokeless. There is little mystery since there are a good variety of of loads listed in old Handloader Magazines and in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook.
On the other hand BP shooters happily talk about using poly, felt, cork, vegetable and paper wads. Why are the wide variety of BP wads a good thing? Then there is the compression of the BP which seems to be common practice. Is that not objectionable?


I just never liked the idea of smokeless in a large BP case and having to fill it up with grits or Dacron.

[ColColt]

The variety of wad material is largely a matter of choice and what may work best in a given rifle. I'm partial to Walter's vegetable wads but others may use a host of other materials. I use what works in a given rifle. Experimentation is all part of the fun just like working up a load in either a 30-06 with no less than 15 different powders or with a 45-90 using Swiss or Goex or perhaps KIK. Less choices of powder in BPCR's because they all work.

Compression? Nope, don't use it. Swiss powder in this rifle doesn't like to be compressed so I don't do it. Goex does and IF I use that now and then it gets about.250" compression. Takes about ten seconds to determine how far down to screw the compression screw.

[oldred]

Another thing is that a lot of these old rounds were loaded with smokeless as factory loads just about as soon as that new fangled stuff came out so smokeless is not even non-traditional! The 45/90 is my favorite round and as I have mentioned several times before even that big case was factory loaded with smokeless starting in 1898! Just like the 45/70 was "designed" for BP and is a fantastic smokeless round far surpassing anything the designers ever dreamed of so can some of the others benefit as long as the firearm is up to the task. I do have concerns about shooting smokeless loads in 100+ year old rifles that may not have been designed with ultimate strength in the first place but good strong designs built from modern steels like Sharps, 1885s and some others are no worry at all. As has already been said smokeless is just another propellant and the choice of some folks for the same reasons it quickly replaced BP almost as soon as it became available. BP is fun and BP is different, some of us actually enjoy the characteristics of BP that others consider a nuisance, blow tubes, fouling and cleaning urgency may be part of the sport to some of us but to others they simply spoil the fun. I shot my big rifles using smokeless and enjoyed the heck out of it and still do sometimes but BP is just another angle and to me another sport in addition to normal smokeless shooting. I just like to see these big old time rounds in the old style rifles and what they can do and it matters not to me what people want to shoot in them!

[bedbugbilly]

I've shot BP for 50 + years so clean up doesn't bother me a bit - most of my experience has been in front stuffers, C & B pistols and full size 10 pounder artillery pieces. It's only the last couple of years that I got interested in cartridge guns and try BP cartridges just seemed natural. Different strokes for different folks though . . . .

For those that mention that they use vinegar in their cleaning solution . . . just remember that vinegar will remove blueing. Probably not an issue diluted but not diluted, it will make quick work out of removing blueing.

[25ring]

I like options,I've used straight black,duplexed black,smokeless,duplexed smokeless in my BPCR rifles and I have good accurate loads in all of these configurations. The most satisfying are the duplexed smokeless loads in that they are full case loads with BP velocities and pressures. Another benefit is the pulldown military powders that are or were relatively cheap [WC 867,WC 872]. FWIW--Mike.

[KHA]

In my case I have zero interest in BP. My interest is in the rifles and the sights. The powder is nothing but the chemistry that provides the propellant. Your loads take 70 grains to deliver the same velocity my loads give with 24 grains.
I shoot BP velocities just like everyone else. To me these rifles are like shooting a large heavy .22LR.

There are a variety of arguments for BP that get used

1. Smokeless is usually associated with jacketed bullets. I shoot smokeless with cast bullets only. So the jacketed bullet fouling and cleaning argument means nothing.
Easier cleaning with BP means nothing if compared to cast bullets with smokeless. ALOX used in smokeless cast bullet lubes is a rust preventative. I usually run a patch wet with Hoppe's through then a dry patch and another wet patch. That is it.

2. Where cleaning is really an issue - some rifles are difficult to strip down and reassemble. Smokeless has a definite advantage with some of these.

Yes I have considered BP and will probably do it some day out of curiosity. I am not a competitor though so nothing compels me to use BP.
I have plenty of other projects ahead of BP on my list.


If you have zero interest in using black powder why do you even post on this forum?
I don't post much but I do spend time reading on this forum and it is a black powder cartridge forum. ("BPCR,your place for combining the Holy Black and Brass.")
There is nothing wrong using smokeless powder in a safe manner but I read a lot of posts that makes my hair stand up from guys that make posts with load suggestions to get velocities up in pressure limits some of these old rifles or even the new reproduction rifles that cant take those king of pressure.
I have read and seen photo's on these forums of guys loading smokeless in these rifles that have destroyed fine old rifles and very bad personal injuries in the result of this.
Not every one has the commonsense to stay away from unsafe load practices just to get all the velocity out of a load they can.

It's best to keep posts about smokeless loads out of a black powder forum to keep the senseless from hurting someone else on the firing line.

Keith

[texassako]

I say they can shoot whatever they want with their guns if it keeps the replica production flowing. The first loads to go through my Pedersoli Sharps were BP, and I realized real quick that I needed work on using the set trigger. There is something to be said for being able to just sit down at the bench with big box of reduced recoil smokeless reloads and working on trigger technique without worrying about anything else. Now I am back to BP and trying to keep a promise about shooting a deer with it this year.

[oldred]

It's best to keep posts about smokeless loads out of a black powder forum to keep the senseless from hurting someone else on the firing line.Keith


Or just the opposite might be true, discussing safe loads and real reasons for (or not) using smokeless might keep someone from making a mistake! What might be safe in a modern 45/70 Sharps for instance might not be in an original or in a trapdoor original or reproduction but believe it or not some people simply don't know. Then of course there are (too many!) people who will shrug off warnings and do what they are determined to do in spite of what they read but there's no helping these people. In any case NOT discussing a subject is not going to prevent anyone from making a mistake. It may be a BP cartridge forum but occasional discussion of alternative propellants in these old cartridges should not be frowned upon as long as they are respectful and presented in the right context, however someone coming here and belittling or scoffing at people for using BP would be totally out of line!

[ColColt]

For those that mention that they use vinegar in their cleaning solution . . . just remember that vinegar will remove blueing. Probably not an issue diluted but not diluted, it will make quick work out of removing blueing.

It's not straight Vinegar. It's "Windex as I mentioned with vinegar in it. I got that tip from Mike Venturino who knows more about this sport and the rifles than most of us will ever know.

Duplex loads? Not going to happen around here. BP doesn't need a boost as it's an explosive all to it's own. Just my opinion but to me that's one of the most dangerous practices you could do.

[MT Chambers]

2 words: cleanup

[ColColt]

I see not difference in cleanup. Two wet patches through the bore with hot soapy water, Windex, Hoppe's Black Powder Solvent or whatever your favoritie brew is followed by three dry patches and you're done with the bore. A little of your favorite brew on a Q-tip to clean the breech area and around the chamber mouth, dry and then run a patch with oil through the bore and a bit on the breech block, trigger area and that's it. I do no more or less with a modern rifle except use Butch's Bore shine or Hoppe's instead of Windex or some other powder solvent and oil the bore and bolt, inside the rails, etc. No difference.

[oldred]

Duplex is something I have dabbled with but only with BP, duplex smokeless loads are something way over my head that I would be afraid to try. Just recently, based solely on what I have read here, I decided to try a smokeless/BP 45/90 duplex load and while I would not attempt to give anyone advice one way or the other I personally was very impressed with the results. 7 grains of H4198 under 70 grains of FFG Goex and fouling was almost non-existent. Clean up was no different at all for either the rifle or the cases with the exception of a lot less residue in the cases but shot to shot was like night and day! From what I read here and a couple of other places it seems this is not an uncommon practice and has been done since the introduction of smokeless, but it was probably a much different smokeless than what we shoot today. The only rifle I have fired these rounds in was proof tested to Ruger no.1 pressures so I felt it was safe enough however I really can't see any signs of increased pressures although logically it would seem that some increase should be expected. YMMV

[Lead pot]

A problem that can happen using smokeless in these large volume cases is getting a detonation instead of a progressive burn using light loads that a lot of shooters like to use to reduce recoil. when you use a light powder load of the wrong smokeless that fills the case less then 1/2 full the primer can ignite all of the powder and you will get a detonation like using black powder and this will raise a pressure spike that will do a lot of damage.

It is a common practice for the schuetzen shooters to raise their muzzle for their special low powder loads to settle the powder in the base of the case. This increases the accuracy and also helps prevent a detonation of the whole charge.
Using these large capacity cases meant for black powder in black powder rifles it is best to use black powder. It cleans just as easy and the accuracy is just as good or better then using smokeless.

[Lumpy grits]

Bet we who shoot the real BP have far less problems find'n powder than the smokeless group doez--
LG

[MT Chambers]

It may be slightly off topic but I have no reservations of using a duplex load of 10% 4759 and 90% real black powder. I've done it so many times that it's gotta be safe! Advantages are: Much cleaner bore and chamber, rifle does not need cleaning or blowtubing to chamber subsequent rounds, you can shoot all day without cleaning. Disadvantages are: May not be legal in some competitions, and because it burns more powder in the barrel, increased velocity and RECOIL........Lyman has no problem recommending duplex loads, in their loading tables. On the other hand I would not ever try all smokeless duplex loads, mixing new and untried powders may not end happily.

[oldred]

A problem that can happen using smokeless in these large volume cases is getting a detonation instead of a progressive burn using light loads that a lot of shooters like to use to reduce recoil. when you use a light powder load of the wrong smokeless that fills the case less then 1/2 full the primer can ignite all of the powder and you will get a detonation like using black powder and this will raise a pressure spike that will do a lot of damage.

It is a common practice for the schuetzen shooters to raise their muzzle for their special low powder loads to settle the powder in the base of the case. This increases the accuracy and also helps prevent a detonation of the whole charge.
Using these large capacity cases meant for black powder in black powder rifles it is best to use black powder. It cleans just as easy and the accuracy is just as good or better then using smokeless.

Just as with any common loading practice it just means selecting the right components and following good procedure, the large case/small charge scenario is just as easily done when reducing the charge for a lighter load even in smokeless rounds. I think probably one of the most well know situations where this has occurred, at least it was the first I had heard of it, is using light Bullseye charges in 357 magnum cases. Maybe with the right powders a lot of empty space is safe or maybe not but either way I personally choose to avoid doing that and it's not at all hard to do with the 45/90 case, I suppose a 45/110, 45/120 or any of the huge 50 cases would be much more difficult to do this with.

In any event cleaning is as most have been saying just as easy or in some ways even easier but let's face it the fact is obviously it's much more critical for both rifles and cases. There is no urgency for cleaning rifles with smokeless and cases are sometimes hardly cleaned at all with smokeless but the point is this isn't, or at least should not be, a game changer either way. IMO anyone who doesn't bother to clean their firearms with either propellent is just looking for problems! Still bore fouling between shots, blowtubes, cases care at the range and in the field and even the smell are enough to cause some folks to look for other ways to enjoy the sport while to some of us it is not only no problem at all but actually just part of the sport that would be missed. BP is dirty and there's no denying that and no point in trying to sugar coat it, either a person enjoys BP and ALL that goes with it or they just want to shoot their rifles and don't want to have to deal with what they consider more trouble than it's worth. Some folks just want to go to the range or on a hunting trip and not have to be concerned with bore fouling, etc and they just want to shoot their guns so what's wrong with that?

[Lumpy grits]

It may be slightly off topic but I have no reservations of using a duplex load of 10% 4759 and 90% real black powder. I've done it so many times that it's gotta be safe! Advantages are: Much cleaner bore and chamber, rifle does not need cleaning or blowtubing to chamber subsequent rounds, you can shoot all day without cleaning. Disadvantages are: May not be legal in some competitions, and because it burns more powder in the barrel, increased velocity and RECOIL........Lyman has no problem recommending duplex loads, in their loading tables. On the other hand I would not ever try all smokeless duplex loads, mixing new and untried powders may not end happily.

How much re-sizing does the base of the case need.
I have seen many a chamber 'ringed' from duplex.
Never saw the need of duplex. If you want some speed-switch to 3F--
LG

[ColColt]

I suppose in some ways it really boils down to what you consider a hassle. I don't mind cleaning the black powder rifle and find it no more a chore than had I had my 7x57 out to the range. They both would get the same attention and their cases would get the same cleaning. Smell? BP don't bother me. In fact, it sort of turns me on!;)

[MT Chambers]

How much re-sizing does the base of the case need.
I have seen many a chamber 'ringed' from duplex.
Never saw the need of duplex. If you want some speed-switch to 3F--
LG
I don't size those cases at all, bullet just sits on the compressed powder charge, for me it is important to be out hunting all day and I don't need to take barrel cleaning equip. with me. I use this process for both the 45/70 and the 50/90 Sharps.

[Lead Fred]

Smokeless dont leave a big poof of smoke for anyone to see

[Gunlaker]

I think in some instances duplex could be a good thing. It's allowed in schuetzen matches and some of those matches require a lot of shooting. If you use the time you spend cleaning the bore for another purpose like waiting on conditions it could be an advantage. I've played a tiny bit with duplex, but will not dig into it until I think I've wrung the most accuracy I can out of straight black powder.

Chris.

[Lumpy grits]

I don't size those cases at all, bullet just sits on the compressed powder charge, for me it is important to be out hunting all day and I don't need to take barrel cleaning equip. with me. I use this process for both the 45/70 and the 50/90 Sharps.

I don't take any clean'n stuff with me either.
When back home-2-3 patches of Windex w/vinegar and I'm done with the bore.
I only blow tube between shots also--
LG

[ColColt]

I take all manner of goodies to the range with me. Cotton patches, rod and jag, bottle of Windex w/vinegar, blow tube, hand deprimer, jug of soapy water for tossing the cases into till I get home,note pad, slip on Limbsaver or Magnum Pad for the shoulder, spotting scope. push pins in case I forgot my stapler, cartridge seater from Arizona Sharpshooters in case I have a problem case not wanting to chamber, and if I've forgotten anything I bring that too. Hot damn what fun!

[GhostHawk]

In my day I've shot some holy black. CVA .45 kentucky rifle, couple of cheaper .36 caliber 6 shooters.

Black powder can be a lot of fun. But all you really need to do to seriously screw up a gun is to forget it for a day or 2 after shooting.

If I ever found the perfect Rolling Block that I couldn't live without I would I admit be torn.

The romance, the allure of the real Holy Black with all the cleaning and mess that comes with it?
Or light smokeless loads that would bruise my shoulder less, and still let me do what I wanted to do.
And no sweat after I get home from the range. Sometime the following week I can run a few patch's down the bore, give a light wipe of oil to the outside, no fuss no bother, no worry's.

Life happens, and if it happens to you when you have a dirty Holy Black gun your going to be sorry afterwords.

While the Romantic in me loves the idea, the realist says "no, we've been down that road, keep it simple"

Perhaps, if you were totally organized and do your cleaning at the range.
But I've never been that organized.

[John Allen]

I only shoot cast and blackpowder in my sharps, rollers and trapdoors. Smokeless powder is a passing Fad.

Holy Black all the way.

[ColColt]

Smokeless powder is a passing Fad.


Now, where have I seen that before? :smile:

[TXGunNut]

Now, where have I seen that before? :smile:

Does sound familiar. ;-)
BP cartridge, BP propellant. Just makes sense to use the powder the cartridge was designed for.

[ColColt]

I agree to that. I've never waited for days or longer to clean a rifle or pistol regardless the propellant. When I get home they get cleaned within an hour whether it's BP or H4831 I was using. I've always done that and old habits die hard. It's not a grudge to clean them for me. I retired two years ago and have all the time in the world for work and play and on my time schedule. It's just me and my Corgi so no female honey-do list to do when I get back from the range. I suppose we're all a bit different.

[Don McDowell]

I don't know what the fuss is about cleaning a gun after shooting blackpowder, done properly it might take 2 minutes to remove the fouling and oil the bore etc. Going back and lead mining to make up for the **** some folks use for home made lube,,, now that takes a bit longer.
Cleaning the cases is probably the biggest chore, but that can be taken care of after a quick slosh in some soapy water, and then let them set until you have time to take care of them.

[ColColt]

I just de-prime them and drop in a container of soapy water at the range, come home and throw them in the Tumbler for a few hours and that's it. If it's sunny outside after the rinse I put them on a towel and leave them in the sun till dry. If cold and little to no sun they get air dried.

[ColColt]

Mike Venturino and Steve Garbe have an excellent book on black powder rifles and this old edition from Guns and Ammo is another good source of info from 1974.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x220/ColColt/Misc%20Stuff/_DEF3941.jpg (http://s180.photobucket.com/user/ColColt/media/Misc%20Stuff/_DEF3941.jpg.html)

Plus, there's an article on the Sharps rifle by none other than Elmer Keith in it and I had him sign it for me at the '74 NRA Convention.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x220/ColColt/Misc%20Stuff/_DEF3942.jpg (http://s180.photobucket.com/user/ColColt/media/Misc%20Stuff/_DEF3942.jpg.html)

[Klaus]

shooting NC Powder in a BP Rifle is boring at all.
The real fun come up with real Black an Pig Lead Bullets.
Cleaning is no matter 3 or 4 Patches with Window Cleaner and a final with Oil after and the Rifle is clean.
I love to shoot my Roller all day long

But a lot of my Buddys shooting NC Powder with 400 grs Nattermann Bullets with great Success but as i told before it` s a boring ...

Klaus :):)

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

I have enjoyed this semi-diatribe on the superiority of the Unholy Black over smokeless. I then think back to 1979 my first year of hunting Elk in Idaho. Had a Hawken. I also remember all the shots at
big bulls I did not take because an iron sighted ML is useless in the mountains unless you have a range finder. Ditto for cartridge rifles, unless you have one and a scope.

Don't get me wrong, they are great stinky fun; but the clean up needs to be done before the smoke clears on a cartridge rifle, or just leave the brass.
I have shot The Quigley ten of the last twelve years, so I am speaking from experience. Agent Orange/Cancer surgery just about killed me in late 2012, so I have missed the last two.

I also have a Ten-bore double rifle, and I started with BP. Cases are a ten-spot each, so at the moment I only have ten. Since I switched to 777 I can shoot all ten, and use the set of reloading tools I got with the rifle to reload them in about a minute each.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Oh, Col Colt,

Is that the issue with Uncle Elmer's writeup on the Shiloh Sharps that Wolfgang Droege built for him? It's a 45-90 Long Range Express, and the serial number is EK 100. I bought that rifle about eighteen months ago. His only grandson pawned it.

It is neat, on two accounts.

1. It is the only custom serial number Shiloh has ever built. When I spoke with Kirk at SCI this year, he said there was NEVER another one built, and NEVER will be another.
2. It was built for Elmer Keith, and I think is especially cool just for that reason.

Rich

And, yes, I shoot it. But with 777 and a paper patched 540gr BACO mold. And, since I am 65 and wear tri-focals, it is now wearing an MVA scope.

[oldred]

You have me very curious about the 777, don't misunderstand I am in no way trying to disagree because I have not shot enough of the stuff to be really knowledgeable about it but from my limited experience (and from talking with others) I have found 777 to be even more corrosive and cleanup critical than real BP. It doesn't seem to be any harder to clean up but if left uncleaned or incorrectly cleaned it can do even more damage than the BP, however as I said this is just my impression of the stuff and my actual experiance with it is somewhat limited. I am especially curious about it's effects on brass cases since the only thing I have tried it in was MLs and I have not personally seen it's effects on brass, seeing what it does to steel however would make it seem to be very hard on brass but maybe not????

[longbow]

ColColt asked why someone would use smokeless in a "BP" rifle and EDG answered with his reasons. What's wrong with that?

While I love real BP and have shot lots of it in the past, I'll add another reason for using smokeless. If you live where I do you will find that getting BP is very difficult and costly. Yes, there are ways of getting it or going places to get it (at least 3 hour drive) but it cannot be found locally at all due to the permits required to ship and store it. Smokeless I can get.

Don't get me wrong, I love the old style guns especially the 1874 Sharps but you can't load and shoot BP if you can't get it.

Longbow

[Don McDowell]

Here in the US getting blackpowder is as difficult as calling Powder Inc, Grafs or a couple other places, and placing your order. FedEx,and UPS take care of the rest..

[Gunlaker]

I wish it was that easy up here in Canada. It's not too bad buying a case of plain Goex, but I still don't have a source for Old E, or Swiss. I have about a quarter of a can of Swiss 1.5 left and that will be just enough for a range trip with my east coast parlor gun :-).

I'm going to have to start talking to the guys in Alberta to see where they are getting their Swiss from.

Chris.

[oldred]

Here in the US getting blackpowder is as difficult as calling Powder Inc, Grafs or a couple other places, and placing your order. FedEx,and UPS take care of the rest..



I would like to add that since a significant amount has to be ordered it get's rather costly per pound for just a couple of pounds BUT there's a solution for that too! I just started asking around to see if anyone was interested in helping me get together a 25 lb group order and in nothing flat there was enough of us to place the order, turned out to be cheaper per pound than from the (not so at 45 miles away) local dealer.

[ColColt]

As Don said it's easy to order here and I order mostly from Powder Inc., usually 5 pounds of it at a time since that much last me a while. In fact, I'm down to two pounds of Swiss and need to order some more while four pounds of Goex sits in storage.

[Don McDowell]

There's a thread on another board about looking for powder locally,, what they're paying local, is about the same as a 5 lb order from Powder Inc, per pound. Unless you are loading for a handgun or one of the WCF cartridge's a pound of powder won't even give you an honest load work up.

[Gunlaker]

It is amazing how fast you can go through the stuff, especially when playing with the .45-110's :-)

In the last while I've mostly been using my schuetzen rifles and at a little more than 40gr a shot, even a pound lasts a little while.

Chris.

[MT Chambers]

Saskatchewan