Help decrease my ignorance...

[USAFrox]

Question: I've read several times on this board where people say that they "shot up some old ammunition that needed to be shot up" or where they've mentioned that they shot ammunition "before it could go bad". I've heard and read where people say that they shoot up their carry ammo once per year, as they fear it going bad in the gun. As far as I know, as long as one stores it correctly and it is correctly sealed, ammunition doesn't go bad. I've seen ammunition from world war 1 that is still good to shoot (but often was loaded with corrosive components, so it takes more care in cleaning afterwards).

So... are people just joking when they say that they fear their ammo will go bad and so they must shoot it (just using that as an excuse to go shooting), or do they really think it goes bad? Or does ammo really go bad, and I'm just ignorant?

Help a brother out...

[KCSO]

Modern ammunition has a shelf life of at least 50 years or more. I still occasionally shoot ammo boxed in Germany in 1944 and the oldest ammo I have shot was some 1880's vintage 45-70 FA for testing purpose. The FA was or rather had gone bad in that the bullet lube was dried and was no longer usefull, but the powder and primers were still good and the ammo went bang. I swabbed the bore and shot enough rounds to give me a basis for develoing a military duplicate load with modern components. I stil have and occasionaly use powder and primers bought by my father in law in the 1950's and I have shot ammo he loaded over the chronograph as late as last year and the ammo still preformed to spec.

[sparky45]

I'm still using powder and primers I bought in the 1970's and they still go bang, every time. Some shotgun shells I loaded in the 1980's still operate as/at the level they did when loaded. So, the old adage of "keep your powder dry" is a good way to assure performance.

[USAFrox]

That's what I thought. I wonder if the folks who have said this actually think that ammunition "expires", or if they were just joking, and I didn't get the joke at the time.

[starmac]

I have lots of ammo that needs shot up, just don't seem to find the time. lol

The saying probably started back when flint or percussion was the norm.

[dtknowles]

I had some stored .22 Hornet reloads that the necks split while in storage. Reloads that use water dropped or oven hardened bullets will see a decrease in hardness over time.

Tim

[Blammer]

Carry ammo is usually not set on a shelf in ideal condition for long term storage.

It's in your pants pockets, carried on your belt, in your gun, all of which are in the current heat humidity, sweat, dust, etc, in addition to being jostled around a bunch, left in a really hot or cold car on occasion etc....

So for me, yea I usually shoot my carry ammo every so often and replace with fresh.

[wills]

That's what I thought. I wonder if the folks who have said this actually think that ammunition "expires", or if they were just joking, and I didn't get the joke at the time.

Of course ammunition expires. If you have ammunition more than a year old,it has expired. Contact me, and I will give you instructions how to send it to me for proper disposal.

[JohnnyFlake]

Actually, from some of the training I have had over the years, it is a good idea to shoot off or simply replace your carry ammo, at least once a year. The reason is not that it expires or even has an expiration date. The reason it is recommended to change your carry ammo, either once a year or even every six months, is the rare, but very possible event of primer contamination. People in very serious, dangerous, body guard, etc. situations do it.

It's a very rare situation but it has happened. Body oils, sweat, body lotions, spillage, splashing, on and on can, if it makes contact with a primer, seep into the casing (Extremely Rare, From Extreme Cold or Hot Conditions) and cause the primer to become inert.

Like anything else a professional does, it's an effort to eliminate even the rarest of issues!

[USAFrox]

I had some stored .22 Hornet reloads that the necks split while in storage. Reloads that use water dropped or oven hardened bullets will see a decrease in hardness over time.

Tim

You're not the first person that has mentioned having cartridges where the cases split while in storage. How does that happen? I'm mystified as to how brass would split while ... not doing anything. Can anyone explain this?

[USAFrox]

Of course ammunition expires. If you have ammunition more than a year old,it has expired. Contact me, and I will give you instructions how to send it to me for proper disposal.


Ok, that made me chuckle. By the way, I've already sent you a bunch... it's in the mail, and I'm sure it'll be there any day. Just wait by the door... :-D

[JohnnyFlake]

You're not the first person that has mentioned having cartridges where the cases split while in storage. How does that happen? I'm mystified as to how brass would split while ... not doing anything. Can anyone explain this?

I do not know the scientific way to explain it, but it does happen. The simple explanation is that when the chemical reaction takes place, that causes the case hardened bullet to become less hard/soften, it causes the bullet to expand ever so slightly. That is what splits the casing.

[dtknowles]

You're not the first person that has mentioned having cartridges where the cases split while in storage. How does that happen? I'm mystified as to how brass would split while ... not doing anything. Can anyone explain this?

I am willing to speculate on my Hornet brass. These had been loaded quite a few times before I put them away while I pursued other interests. The brass was probably quite hard from multiple sizings, this was before I started annealing my .22 Hornet brass. These were jacketed bullet loads with .224 bullets so it might also had a good amount of neck tension. It then spent 10 years in a garage with daily temperature swings and seasonal temperature swings, I suggest it was low cycle fatigue.

[C. Latch]

It is a good idea to replace carry ammo, due to the aforementioned factors, and I have seen 'old' carry ammo that wouldn't fire after ~3 years of carry.

Properly stored, though......I shoot powder every day that was bought in or before 1970. Killed a squirrel last week with some .22s that I think were from the early 1980s.

[USAFrox]

hmmm, temperature swings, causing the metal to shrink or expand while tightly tensioned on bullets. Ok, that's beginning to make more sense. Thanks!

[nvbirdman]

Ammunition will go bad. It may go bad in fifty years, or one hundred years, or it may not start going bad for five hundred years, but why take the chance? If I've had it around for a while I shoot it up just to be on the safe side, and then I can enjoy casting more boolits and loading more ammo.

[OBIII]

Everyone is missing the most obvious answer: It gives you an excuse to reload more. :bigsmyl2:

OB

[Garyshome]

You mean old Stale/Moldy Ammo? That's the best kind to shoot up!

[GabbyM]

Had some revolver ammo I'd carried around in my pickup for a couple or few years. 44 mag with 8.0 grains Unique under 240 grain cast. From a box of fifty I had one light load. Almost a squib but the bullet did exit barrel and hit backstop. Our member Thumbcocker was on the range in Effingham to notice that. He said he saw it hit the backstop but it was so light I just had to look down the bore. For sure was past time to burn that box of ammo up.

I have quite a bit of ammo here I loaded up in the 1980's for large hunting rifles I don't shoot much. Always kept inside an air conditioned home in a closet. If I wanted to take it hunting. I'd ideally take it out and run a ten shot string over a chronograph. Then check zero on rifle. Confident it would be fine. May be fifty to 100 fps slower than thirty years ago. More probably not.

[Lead Fred]

The US Army rotates their ammo every 30 years. Thats what I use. Yet Ive got 30-06 ammo thats turn of the century thru WWI, and everyone has gone off.

My bullet collection consists of a 1883 UMC 45/70 round. I w3ill never shoot it, me thinks it a paper weight nowe

[MaryB]

Carry ammo gets used at the range every 2 weeks or so in summer and maybe once a month in winter... you do practice don't you?

[Multigunner]

Last I heard NATO mandates ammunition be tested by lot after fifteen years in storage then again every five years.

Neck splits of ammo in storage may be due to "Stress Corrosion Cracking" or Ammonia Season Cracking". First indentified by the British in India in the 1920s.
The cause then was lack of annealing of case neck and shoulder. This allowed microscopic fizzures to form during the dawing and forming operations. Exposure to air rich in ammonia vapor from monsoon swollen rice paddies and in stables set off the SCC cycle embrittling and starting microscopic craks that widened till visible or bullets came loose.
Resizing of fired cases without proper annealing could lead to the same situation.
Break down of propellants can release fumes that would contribute to SCC, and exposure to ammonia based solvents and such.

[cbrick]

I had some stored .22 Hornet reloads that the necks split while in storage. Reloads that use water dropped or oven hardened bullets will see a decrease in hardness over time. Tim

Not nearly as fast as some people think. I HT a few boxes of RCBS 35 200 bullets to 30 BHN, put them in a box properly labeled with date and all the details of the alloy, HT etc. Put them under the bench and forgot them. 10 years later I discovered them and thought they would be putty from age softening. They were still BHN 26.

Yep, they age softened, just not very much or very fast.

Rick

[facetious]

Years ago one of the shooting mag's had a story on stress corrosion cracking that said what was stated above. In the story thy recommended washing cases to be loaded in a acid like vinegar and water to neutralize any alkaloids like ammonia that mite be on or in the cases. Citric acid would do the same thing and may be stronger then vinegar. And be careful what kind of polishes the you use in you case tumbler also.

[Bullwolf]

Question: I've heard and read where people say that they shoot up their carry ammo once per year, as they fear it going bad in the gun. As far as I know, as long as one stores it correctly and it is correctly sealed, ammunition doesn't go bad.

I've seen ammunition from world war 1 that is still good to shoot (but often was loaded with corrosive components, so it takes more care in cleaning afterwards).



My thoughts on this.

I still have quite a few boxes of old 1940's era 45 ACP Ball ammo that's fine, and shoots well enough that I would bet my life on it if I had to.

Alternatively, when I constantly carried and wore a 1911 pistol (cocked and locked) I would cycle the chamber round in and out, while loading and unloading the pistol. The chambered round would get beat up after a while.

Constantly stripping a round from the magazine into the chamber was hard on the round on top. I noticed that rounds OAL would eventually start to shrink. So, I started cycling out my chamber round with a fresh one. After a while, I'd build up a partial box of somewhat beat up ammo, that had been chambered multiple times. Eventually those rounds I would go "shoot up" just to get them gone, or turn them into brass.

Of course if you just leave all your ammunition stored in a container, or never load/unload your pistol, that sort of thing won't happen.

With that exception, I suspect most of my ammunition will likely outlast my lifetime.



- Bullwolf

[FredBuddy]

The other extreme ?

When I got out of the army and went back to school, I had a job as a night watchman at a big hotel. They gave me a 38, belt and holster. First night I was at my station in another building being remodeled, and looked the rig over. Green stuff all over the ammo and spider webs in the pistol barrel !! Sgt Sanchez woulda had a fit !

Next night brought a cleaning kit in. Thankfully never had to use the pistol.

[jcwit]

I've used 8mm ammo that had the Nazi head stamp.

[Forgetful]

Reloads that use water dropped or oven hardened bullets will see a decrease in hardness over time.

It's the tin that causes age-softening.



You're not the first person that has mentioned having cartridges where the cases split while in storage. How does that happen? I'm mystified as to how brass would split while ... not doing anything. Can anyone explain this?

I was thinking that if you had lead with any quantity of zinc in it, it would crystallize internally and expand slowly such as how impure water freezes to ice and expands with a crystalline structure. With more age, the more pronounced this is. There are reports of bullets breaking apart after chambering because they had zinc contamination and had aged.

[USAFrox]

Interesting about the zinc. I learn something new everyday on this site!

[azrednek]

Something that needs mentioning on the topic of shooting old ammo. Be very cautious of hang-fires and squibs. In the mid 70's. Friends and I gathered on weekends shooting mil-surp rifles and ammo at metal dongs at long ranges. Hang-fires were not uncommon although certain batches it was more common. The only US mil-surp ammo I've ever experienced hang-fires were some early 30's FA, 45ACP. Most the FA 45's were duds but the ones that did go bang nearly always there was a slight delay. Shooting Turk 7.65, early 30's I believe. The hang-fires and duds were well over 50%. A shooting bud had some 1940's British surplus handgun ammo. I can't recall the ammo's designation but it was the same as the US 38 Smith and Wesson (not Special). Nearly every round he fired at one of our gatherings were squibs. Primer went bang but powder did not ignite. He gave up on the Brit ammo after boogering up a cleaning rod punching FMJ bullets out of the barrel.

[Multigunner]

"Zinc Pest" is more commonly associated with cast zinc objects being contaminated with lead. It has been reported that some zinc projectiles have disintegrated on firing after years of storage if the mold or dipper or melting pot had previously been used to case lead boolits.
Zinc Pest is particularly erksome to collectors of cast alloy toys.

A bullet expanding might cause a split neck I suppose but unless the neck were embrittled in some way I would not expect a split from such a slow process. Case necks expand far more in normal firing.

If I intend to carry an auto with one up the spout I usually single load the first round then insert a fully loaded magazine.
Some say that if the first round isn't stripped from the magazine it might result in a second round jam because the following round won't have been pulled forwards by the friction of the first round. I've never had such a jam and never met anyone who did so I suspect this is theoretical and unlikely to occur in real life.
Tapping the front of the magazine against the palm of the hand before inserting it seems to be intended to prevent this possibility.

If you have cartridges that have been stripped in from the mag several times the bullet might become loose and if caught on the feed ramp the bullet may be pushed back into the case causing excessive pressure.
The original milspec .45 ACP had a cannelure crimp in the case to form a shelf under the bullet to prevent this. Old Remington 9mm cartridges in my collection also have this cannelure.
It would be nice if cartridge manufacturers started using this feature again. Many of the more recent auto-pistol Kabooms, especially with Glocks, have been due to bullets pushed back into the case.

PS
While milspec ball cartridges might last thirty years in storage these almost always have neck sealants and primer waterproofing sealants. Something you won't normally see with sporting ammunition and are unlikely to see with reloads unless you apply it yourself.

Penetrating oils can deaden primers, any petroleum based lubricating oils can migrate from a pistol mechanism to the base of cartridges.

[Dave C.]

I just opened my last brick of Remington 22 ball ammo bought from the DCM (yes it was the dcm back then) it is dated 1979.
It still shoots the same as the first case.

Dave C.

[Blacksmith]

I fully expect some of my ammo to be shot by my grand children and (as yet nonexistent) great grandchildren. I hope they will enjoy it and think fondly of me.

[smokeywolf]

I'll shoot old ammo, but I won't carry it. I've shot a fair amount of WW II era ammo with good results.

smokeywolf

[Multigunner]

Figured I should add something to what I wrote earlier


If I intend to carry an auto with one up the spout I usually single load the first round then insert a fully loaded magazine.
If you have a 1911 or older style P-35 Browning with the extractor that slides in from the rear of the slide, these extractors may be damaged by snapping over the rim of a cartridge already in the chamber.

The more common pivoted extractors are less prone to dmage, probably why Browning switched to this type for more recent P-35 autos and most if not all modern pocket autos use the pivoted extractor riding in the slot behind the ejector port.
Also with the limited clearance in the ejector port of some autos some of the modern very wide flat point and hollow point ammo won't have enough clearance to slide into the chamber when single loaded.

Autoloading rifles are usually easier to single load if the magazine is empty or removed, the boltface and extractor of the Garand and M1 carbine seem designed with this in mind. Most are push feed to begin with.

Some .22 RF autoloaders might pose a safety issue when single loading, though not by design.
If an extractor makes violent contact with the rim of a rimfire cartridge theres a slim possibility of a unintentional discharge. I have seen this happen once many years ago. The extractor was bent a bit so it wasn't a normal loading situation.

If single loading an auto its best to ease the slide or bolt closed if possible, but thats not always possible with some designs.

[MtGun44]

Cracked necks can come from exposure to ammonia - including rat or mouse urine.
Some of the other theories are a bit silly, actually.

The biggest real world issues are primers going bad, or the powder deteriorating . I have a near
full case of Pakistani .303 that has about 30% no fire, 30% proper shooting and 40% hangfires
of about 1/4 - 1/2 second. Shoots well if you follow through properly. ;-)

Larry Gibson has documented ammo "falling off the edge" - working great one year and not the
next. Of course, this is all old military surplus ammo, and mostly we are talking about ammo
over 40 or 50 years old or more.

I have shot a lot of ammo that is more than 60 years old and it worked well. US ammo seems more
durable than a lot of foreign ammo, too.

Bill

[Multigunner]

Just remembered an unusual situation that destroyed a .44 Magnum revolver and IIRC injured the owner.
At first it was assumed to be an over charged cartridge (factory ammo not reloads) but further investigation proved otherwise.

The owner had keep a box of ammo in the glove box of his truck. He spent a lot of time driving off road. Not sure but this may have been in Alaska.
Examination of the remaining cartridges in that box revealed that vibration from the engine , bouncing about unsecured in the glove box, and heat from defroster ducts and heater core had caused the propellant to disintegrate to a fine dust.

Believe it or not I've seen some members of another board recommend putting old cartridges covered with verdigis in a case tumbler overnight to clean them up.

A UK veteran on another board wrote of his desert patrol outfit (he didn't give the time frame but I think he had been speaking of the 60's or there abouts)replacing all ammo carried in armored vehicles in the desert for two weeks or more.
The temperature in armored vehicles can go to over 130 degrees, perhaps higher. Exposure to heat and vibration could make ammo unsafe.
I did not learn the ultimate fate of the discarded ammunition. I suspect it was used up in training or shot up in the field for practice.

Suspect ammo has been used in training machinegunners. It helps for a trainee to have ammo related jams he must learn to deal with as quickly as possible. Julian Hatcher used to bugger the headspace of MGs used in training so these would have plenty of separated cases and blown primers that the recruits would learn to deal with.

PS
Some believe that hangfires are not a safety concern. Some have lost an eye or fingers when ejecting what they thought to be a dud. In one case the victim had set the rifle aside for several minutes. The cartridge detonated the moment he began to open the action and his thumb was all but severed and he loast some flesh not to mention the damage to the rifle .
Something much like this happened during WW1 when a very bad lot of primers were used for .30-06 ball ammo. Those primers went sour within a couple of months.
I've also seen a video where a old POF .303 cartridge detonated in mid air when ejected. The detonation was only a couple of feet from the shooter's head and several persons were near by as well. apparently there were no injuries.

I've stopped using milsurp ammo unless its of fairly recent vintage.
Finding fresh reliable milsurp ammo locally is not that easy. Thats the main reason I began hand loading again after not having done so for a great many years.
Most of our members can handload a perfectly sade reliable cartridge at a fraction of the cost of all but the least desirable milsurp ammo.
Whenever I do run on to milsurp ammo cheap these days I break it down to salvage the bullets and the case if its boxer primed. If the powder looks and smells good I sometimes use it for reduced loads that I intend to use up fairly soon. If it shows even the slightest sign of degradation I dispose of it.
If you salvage 50 year old powder that looks and smells fine, it may become severely degraded by the time you use up these rounds a few years later.
Stabilizers begin to lose their effectiveness after 25 years. Once these become ineffective powder can go bad at anytime with no way of knowing how soon. The products of decomposition begin to build up inside the case and degradation can be accelerated