58 Caliber Zouave

[ColColt]

Back around 1972 I went to a local gun show and met Val Forgett of Navy Arms. I had just bought their 58 cal. Zouave and was questioning him about the strength of the rifle and loads. He told me you could put as much powder in that barrel as you wanted as long as there was enough room for the bullet to be seated!

I didn't quite want to dump a pound or more of powder to try it but me and a shooting buddy went to the range and started with 70 gr of Goex 2F. Graduating up the latter I then tried 90, 100, and 120 gr. Accuracy surprised me and the smoke with horrendous. It took a good 15 seconds to see the target. I gritted my teeth as I went to 140 gr and got in a good T-formation with my feet and touched her off. It nearly knocked my glasses off and the recoil actually re-cocked the hammer. I stopped at that point but what great fun for crazy 26 year olds. That was a lot of thump with a 505 gr pure lead mini ball.

[BruceB]

It wasn't recoil that was re-cocking the hammer.

It was pressure from the charge coming back through the nipple and blowing the hammer back.

I did the same thing with my Zouave around the same time period. Sanity EVENTUALLY exerted itself a WEE bit, and I reduced the load to where the hammer only blew back to HALF cock. No clogged nipples, fer danged sure....

When the bore fouled badly enough to make reloading difficult, I'd pour a couple ounces of water right down the muzzle on top of a Minie' and a half-charge of powder. Cap it quickly, keep it pointed into the air, and....BLOOOSH! Voila'.... a bore clean enough to accept several more loadings.

Then there were the .22 Shorts (WITH bullets) and Hilti-gun blanks set into the noses of the bullets..... best be careful ramming THOSE guys, I'll tell you! Lotsa fun shooting hard objects.

.58 Minie' balls work very well on caribou, zipping right through the animals with little apparent deceleration. Within a hundred yards, they were literally meat on the table.

Oh, to be young and bulletproof again.

[ColColt]

Oh, to be young and bulletproof again

Yep, and we thought we really were. Sure wished I felt that age again.

[StrawHat]

Bringing back memories, perhaps best left forgotten.

[Little Boats]

Yep, and we thought we really were. Sure wished I felt that age again.

I was positive I was bullet proof. Found out I was wrong right about the same time the first bullet hit me. :veryconfu

If I had had any clue I would live this long I would have been more careful

[Hiwall55]

Amen to that last post

[Hellgate]

90 grs of FF or FFF under a 575213-OS or 577611 is great deer or elk fodder. I have yet to recover a minie from the two deer and the elk I shot. One full sized adult doe mulie was hit in the frot shoulder and the bullet exited the opposite ham. The amazing thing was the 2" wound channel from stem to stern but very little ruined meat. No bloodshot areas as would have occurred with the .30-06. The elk was broadside through both shoulder blades and nicked the spine.

[bigted]

speaking of the Zouave ... change the subject just a tad ... I own a CVA model and for the life of me I cant seem to find any jags to fit the threads on the end that fits into the ramrod hole in the stock. anybody have a clue where I might find accessories for this ramrod screw size ... also it is the male threads ... not the female type that accepts most cleaning/brush jags.

thread size ... near as I can determine is in the 12x32 thread pitch area.

also AMEN to the youngster stupids ... had a few lapses of brain power in the same time frame myself. glad those daze are over with ... somewhat remember a 58 cal H&R Huntsman I think that nearly tore my young shoulder/clavicle lose from my body.

[ColColt]

those old 58 cal hollow squirted bullets were more potent than many realize. I recall reading where Val Forgett dropped an elephant with the Navy Arms Hawken Hunter using a 510 gr bullet and 140 gr of 2F. My Zouave currently resides over the fireplace. I need to take it out now and then but I won't cast bullets for it, I'll buy them. I recall too well what a PITA it was casting for them having to get the cherry for the hollow base the same temperature as the mould or you'd get wrinkles and voids in it.

[Hellgate]

Check Track of the Wolf for ramrod adapters or any shooter's supply house. Those threads could be metric so double check. TOW may well know the thread pitch of the Zouaves. Mine is a Zoli but I don't know the pitch.

[fouronesix]

The 58 cal Zouave (and most all rifled muskets) and the conventional hollow base Miniés are not designed for really heavy charges. I've proven to my satisfaction that a pure lead Minié out of 54 cal, 58 cal and 69 cal traveling at standard load velocities will penetrate as well as if not better than the same bullets traveling faster and will fully penetrate anything I may want to shoot with that type load or firearm. A decent rule of thumb is about 1gr BP per caliber for Minié muskets (which BTW have been roughly their standard loads for the last 150 yrs).

Those standard load velocities are somewhat puny compared to the hype of high velocity or more recoil or more pressure or more whatever. Penetration vs impact velocity is not a direct relationship and penetration can actually decrease with soft lead projectiles at higher impact velocities. Not to mention, accuracy usually goes south as the charges increase past a certain level with the traditional Miniés. What's the point without accuracy.

[ColColt]

The standard military charge was 70 gr of 2F, best I recall, for that rifle and ditto the Springfield as well. When we used that large charge just for thrills mostly, we were shooting at a seven inch bulls eye at 50 yards offhand. That 140 gr charge hit right in the center. So much for accuracy. We weren't shooting for accuracy just to see if we could take the recoil. You think like that at 25 years old.

[fouronesix]

For the Civil War issued 58/577 cal rifle muskets, I think the standard service charge was 60gr BP for a Minié (which varied some but in the 400-500 gr range). Usually issued in a pack of paper cartridges with each pack held in metal tins within a leather cartridge box. Each paper cartridge contained the charge and a lubed Minié. A separate leather cap box held the caps.

[Omnivore]

thread size ... near as I can determine is in the 12x32 thread pitch area.



A simple tap and die set, and a pitch gauge (maybe 50 to 75 dollars total. Less if you go really cheap, more if you go high-end) and you'll be able to solve all such problems within minutes. That's assuming you already have a drill and a set of numbered bits, which everyone should have. Then again; everyone should have a tap and die set, a pitch gauge and a dial caliper.

Just do it. No need to thank me later.

[bigted]

LOL ... not sure what it is that im suppose do to "just do it". how you recon I arrived at the 12x32 pitch? ... yep ... pitch gauge, calipers, tap-n-die set ... copious drill bit sets.

now to muddy up the water ... they are a little muffed up from previous owners so they may just be metric. at any rate I been to all the places including tow and can find no exact info on what I need for an adapter.

guess the simple would be to cut off the threads and drill center and tap for the 10x32 size to be able to fit any BP jigs/brush's. this way ... as a bonus ... my poor palm will not get emblazoned with the semi pointed threads on the end of this small in diameter steel ramrod.

[carbine]

Ted
Most folks with muskets in the N-SSA use a separate cleaning rod for the attachments. It has a cleqaning jag with an internal thread that fits shotgun jags nd accoutrements. S&S and other vendors sell them.

[Brett Ross]

I bought a CVA Hawkin, 30+ years ago (still have it). 120G was the max I ever shot in it, RB only, 90G was the most accurate load though . I used to love splitting balls in blanket shoots , almost cheating with that big pumpkin thrower. I have not shot it for years need to get it out and make massive clouds of black smoke again,

[kens]

Would a 20ga shotgun rifled slug have approx the same energy, knockdown, and penetration as the .58 muzzle loader??

[Hellgate]

Kens,
I don't think so. The minie ball has a fair amount of lead up front and is more pointed than a shotgun slug. Ballistically, they may be similar but I think the 58 (24ga) minie is heavier 430-530grs (one ounce plus) and punches a longer hole. The 20ga slug may come out faster but get stopped quicker. I've had a minie go diagonally through a full sized mulie doe and another through both shoulder blades & upper chest of an elk. I have yet to recover a minie but I'd expect to see a shotgun slug stopped by either beast hit similarly.

[bigted]

I have been so enamored with the minni that I have LEE molds for my 50, 54, and the 58. cant wait to get out and develop loads for each that will fly straight. putting together a 45 also but have not looked for a minni for it yet.

[ColColt]

My old Lyman mini ball mould, can't recall the number without digging it out, cast a mini at 505 gr and had three grease grooves(if you count the top one) with hollow base. No wonder guys died of superficial wounds during the Civil War if hit with one of them.

I think this is the one although I don't know why they call it "New". It looks a lot like the one I have and I bought it back in 1971.

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/bullet-casting/mould-details-blackpowder.php?entryID=91

[Janoosh]

The "NEW" mold differs in lube grooves, weight, and design. The other mold used to be/ is still labeled OS, for old style. I have the New style and I'm on the search for the Old style. Note the smaller bearing surface on the Old style.

[ColColt]

the "new" style is the same weight of my old mould , 510 gr.

[Hellgate]

My 575213-OS casts a lighter 437gr minie with a pointier nose and sharper, deeper lube grooves. Also the skirt is fairly thick which I like for heavier hunting loads (90grs BP). I'm not sure if the "new" 575213 has a thick skirt or not. The LEE molds do and are more suitable for target and lighter loads <60grs BP.

[Janoosh]

Thanks Hellgate. Been shooting PRB (570) in my Zouave as that's what's most accurate for me. Here in N.Y., most shots for hunting are within 100yds, more like 50, and PRB does its job.

[ColColt]

A picture is worth a thousand words. This is what mine looks like from a mould bought over 40 years ago.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x220/ColColt/Gun%20Related%20Stuff/_1DF3133a_zps721edd84.jpg (http://s180.photobucket.com/user/ColColt/media/Gun%20Related%20Stuff/_1DF3133a_zps721edd84.jpg.html)

[Hellgate]

These aren't photos but if you scroll down to the 58s and click "details" on each bullet you'll get a schematic that shows its differences.
http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/bullet-casting/select-mould-blackpowder.php

[ColColt]

The one I show in the picture looks more to me like what Lyman calls their "New" bullet. Their Old style is only 460 gr and mine is 510 gr, just like the New they list.

[Hellgate]

The OS casts sharper edged lube/scraping grooves. Note there is more bearing surface on the newer mold compared to the OS. I just happen to like the OS because it so resembles the dug up bullets from CW battlefields.

[Hogtamer]

I realize I'm in front-stuffers territory here and I'm an old shotgunner but thought you may be interested in that some of us are blasting the aforementioned OS .58 cal minies out of 12 gauges. Ed Hubel and others did a lot of work developing sabots that work in rifle barrelled shotguns using the big lead you guys are so fond of. I've worked up a load that uses the 575213 OS, but mine cast @ about 495 grns with a good thick skirt. I have to shorten the overall length a bit with a file to the base to fit properly in the sabot. With a good base wad and a 1/4" felt wad under the sabot, 37 grns of alliant steel (slow burning powder, must be hand weighed) moves these brutes at a guestimated 1500 fps with remarkable accuracy at considerable distance out of my remington 870 express, rifled and scoped. Make sure you have adequate eye relief and don't ask how I know this! And by Hubel's standards this is a light load! Have not shot a deer with one yet but no animal in north america will stand for this I am sure. Here's a couple of links...
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?246728-Tested-Hogtamer-Loads-at-100yds-with-pictures
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?247074-200-yd-Sabot-target!!!