Stevens

[Billthomas]

119599119600Copy of a 44 1\2 Stevens with thicker side walls

[richhodg66]

Is this a modern reproduction?

My dad collected 44 1/2 Stevens rather extensively and had quite a few of them in many configurations and calibers. He' s been selling them off the past several years and doesn't have many now, but they are really neat rifles.

[slumlord44]

Nice 44 1/2. Got a question or just sharing? I have several. Great guns. It's a shame they only made them for a few years. What caliber?

[358wcf]

I took up the Stevens bandwagon a year or so ago- traded into a very nice 44 1/2 (Model 45) in 22LR- will restore this one for sure. Made prior to WW1, in the USA, by craftsmen. Gave myself a retirement present last year as well, ordering from CPA their modern Stevens 44 1/2 with two barrels in 32-40 and 30-30. Starting to have some real target-shooting fun with this one- stay tuned for more---
Chuck 358wcf [smilie=1:[smilie=1:[smilie=1:

[oldred]

Fellows Bill builds these rifles himself and what you are seeing there are examples of his handiwork! Check out some of the other rifles and pistols he has built, these are in other threads that have been posted in the last couple of days and are well worth the look. It's amazing what this man has accomplished!

[Billthomas]

I made that one in .44 mag, that keeps the shooting cheap. I thought the original had fairly thin side walls so I made these thicker, I have a better pic that I'll post if its not lost in the computer. Bill T.

[oldred]

Bill you have me all fired up to get back to working on my latest project, now if I can just get those dang farmers to quit breaking their tractors, hay balers, etc I might get time to work on something fun.

[Billthomas]

That's great, but remember we all have to eat, keep them tractors running. do you want to see some rough pics of the two 1885s in progress? if so do I post them here of on a pm? Bill T.

[oldred]

I would like to see them posted here, there are several folks here who have been wanting to try their hand at this and this is just the kind of thing that can encourage them to get started. I wish I had of taken more photos of mine as I progressed but it's too late now, photos of both finished guns or any stage of the progress would be of great interest to some of us.

[Pinsnscrews]

Bill, I would recommend setting up an account with an online photo source like Flikr or Photobucket. Picassa also, though I have seen issues with Picassa photos not linking correctly on forums. You have magnificent work to showcase, and I would also love to see more of it, both finished and in the works. The advantage to the online sources is they are in one place, so if you are on another forum, you will be able to link them into your posts there as well.

[Billthomas]

We bought a new computer recently, and my son transferred my photos, they are now mixed in with other data and take a lot of searching, some I've never found Bill T

[Billthomas]

119736119737119738119739119740119741119742

[Billthomas]

119750119751119752

[oldred]

Got your PM,

These pics are interesting indeed and I see a lot of similarities there between them and they way I did mine, a notable exception was that I used a Port-a-band saw mounted in a vise to saw out the rough receiver blank rather than the series of mill/drill holes. Just out of curosity since it really isn't important one way or the other but is the pilot hole for the barrel shown in the pic there 5/8"?

On my first rifle, the large one, I purposely deviated significantly from the original appearance, the reasoning being that this was a custom rifle and was originally conceived as to be my own design based on the 1885. Of course before I got very far it became apparent there was no way this was going to be even close to anything of my own design and I seriously regretted even trying to make it look different! On the second one while I did scale it down I tried to maintain the original appearance as closely as practical with the exception of using the hidden screws and sear pin and also by copying Ruger's 10/22 barrel attachment system for a quick change barrel. The intention is to have a switch barrel rifle chambered in 22 WMR and 17 HMR, not a quick change such as the simple H&R or Contender/Encore but easily less than 4 minutes to do anyway. I still haven't fitted the 17 barrel blank and it's still in it's cardboard shipping tube, ah well someday!

[Billthomas]

First, that's not really rust, that camera tries to make me look like a slob.5/8 correct, at that time wasn't sure what barrel thread I needed, they are 15/16 by 16tpi now. I have afew more pics but there does not seem to be much interest, it has always been like that

[Billthomas]

Oops, the 5/8 hole goes through and roughs in the loading port behind the hammer. Bill t

[oldred]

I would like to see these threads encourage a few more to try their hand at doing this, it's got to be one of the most satisfying hobbies I have ever dabbled with. I really do believe that a lot of folks might be surprised by what they can accomplish given enough patience and attention to detail and it would be a lot of fun seeing different rifles/pistols and some other folks' ideas. Even some of the simpler firearms such as Muzzle loaders can be a LOT of fun and a fellow can take a lot of pride in owning and shooting something he has built from scratch. It sure has been fun seeing your projects and it has been an inspiration to me to maybe spend a bit more time on the hobbies and less time working on tractors and such, I retired several years ago so that sort of thing was supposed to take a back seat to my hobbies. :roll:

Thanks for taking the time to post these pictures, I can assure you there has been a lot of interest in them!

[dsbock]

Bill,

Please post more pictures of your build progress. I (for one) am very interested in the process you use.

I have several of Frank de Haas's single shot books as well as Walter Mueller's Building a Single-Shot, Falling Block Rifle Action. While I don't have access to the tools and I don't have the skills needed (yet), I do have the interest in tackling this project someday.

Thank you for sharing.

David

[Billthomas]

I was going to recommend his book and I looked them up on Amazon and couldn't believe how much the price has risen. My first one had to be replaced I read it so much, I have all of his books. You can enlarge his section views until they are right and print them on sticky back paper then just stick them on the metal, lightly center punch the out lines and machine away, graat for small items like triggers, hammers ,etc. His high wall views leave out the fore stock socket, so look at all the pics you can. Bill T.

[Billthomas]

You can see some of the broaching tools, and how close you can get the block raceway before filing, The edge chamfers save a lot of filing also, there is a simple formula for the amount of metal that can be removed safely. That tool to hold the action in the vise is called a goose neck, home made very useful. The tap for the barrel thread is also a home grown product, wish we were all sitting out in the shop. Do you want to see pics of the shop? Bill T




119940119941119942119943119944119945119946

[oldred]

Do you want to see pics of the shop? Bill T That's kind of like asking if the Pope is Catholic! Lol,

Something I would find very interesting is how you machined the extractor pockets for the highwalls? I positioned the receiver at the proper angle and machined the pocket using a long 1/8" end mill which was a rather drawn out operation but then I was using the milling attachment and my lathe, I am thinking it will be much easier next time using the Mill.

Thanks, and keep'm coming!

[dsbock]

Do you want to see pics of the shop?

Absolutely! As much imagery and description as you're willing to share.

I can imagine John Browning creating the prototype High Wall using a setup like yours. Only his would have been steam engine and leather belt driven.

Years ago I managed to get a copy of Mr. Single Shot's Book of Rifle Plans by de Haas. I'd hate to have to replace it now.

Thanks.

David

[oldred]

I can imagine John Browning creating the prototype High Wall using a setup like yours.



I have often wondered what JB's shop looked like and I have been told there is actually a pic of it somewhere but I couldn't find it.

Just a bit of trivia about the JB and the highwall, actually Browning didn't design the 1885 highwall we all know so well, the 1885 we are all familiar with was a Winchester design based on the falling block/integral hammer idea that Winchester bought the patent to from Browning. Browning's original rifles, of which not many were built, were very much different in both design and appearance having an even simpler lock system. Winchester took this design and patterned the exterior after the Sharps 1875 (they even advertised that fact) and so redesigned and refined the lock system that except for the basic block/hammer idea it's hardly recognizable as JB's original design. Still it was John Browning that came up with the idea and in the end he is still the one to be credited for these rifles because but for his ingenious idea they would not exist today!

[srk]

Hi Guys
Bill, are going to heat treat it? Case harden?
What type of steel did you use?
A-2 or an oil harden?
Would like to get more experience with case hardening.
I started to make the falling block for a Stevens in 32 R.F, only to change it to either a
.32-20 or .32 S&w.
Thanks
Sean

[Billthomas]

120428120429120430120431120432120433120434

[Billthomas]

Sorry, been busy with the leaves and firewood. The material I am using is 8620, and I case harden in an outdoor wood fire, I was using a gas forge but it was to easy to over heat, wood fire works as long as you have a chimney for draw, I use a 50 gal drum with the ends removed. I am still having problems posting I can't find the pics in the computer, my son helped me and now I'm dumber than before. Later, Bill T.

[Billthomas]

120436Here is the one I missed, Red, I have that pic of Brownings shop, I'll see if I can find it and I also have a internal drawing of his action. The broaching tools that I posted in the pics are what I used for the extractor slot, I use the spindle as a vertical shaper, power off of course, you have to chop away at it but it works. A drill press with a cross slide would work better I think. You can do a lot of things with that mill other than milling, with a lathe bit in the vise and the work in the spindle it makes a great precision lathe. You can also shave lines in a piece, like the anti glare on top of a quarter rib, darn running at the mouth again, shop pics if they can be found. BT

[Billthomas]

120455120456120457Decided to clean it up last year, nice and bright now. Bill T

[srk]

Nice looking shop!
I wish I had never sold my mill.
Don'y hate me!

[fatelk]

Impressive work! Thank you for posting photos.

I would love to have a shop with my own machine tools. Some day...

[Billthomas]

120774120775120776Roughed in using a inexpensive Harbor Freight angle grinder and metal rasps, block and hammer next. B.T.

[kokomokid]

B.T. Can you tell me what your favorite two files are (brand and cut) ? Also do you just drill holes for the pins or use a reamer? THANKS LB

[Billthomas]

I am lucky, my wife garage sales and always looks for fies, sand paper,etc so I'm not choosy. Any American made are good, Nicholson,heller, etc. asaian are generally junk. A good selectin is helpful,half rounds,rattail, I work out of a 5 gallon bucket of them ad when they wear out I thrwtem in a fire, anneal them and use them for stock. I use a reamer if available, but if I drill I go undersize first and then fiinish drill, that usually works well, I hope that helps, Bill t.

[Billthomas]

122405122406122407I have to do the trigger mech. and main spring, but this is pretty much the end, you can see the safety firing pin setup, the link modification and alteration to the hammer for retraction. The little tool is a spanner to install the block bushing. Any questions? Bill T.

[oldred]

Bill we must think a lot along the same lines as my firing pin and link mods are almost a dead ringer for yours! My rifles both share another slightly more involved mod that mounts the sear on a carrier that slides into slots in the receiver similar to the slots for the lower tang, this is probably just a lot of extra bother for no real gain however since it's purpose was to eliminate the ends of the sear support pin from appearing on the outside of the receiver. I did this along with another rather time consuming mod that secures the lower tang/trigger group from the back of the receiver where the retaining screws are hidden by the stock, still no real reason for doing this except for appearance. These mods result in a cleaner outward appearance with the only thing showing on the receiver sides being the ends of the lever pin, all-in-all a whole lot of trouble and extra work for no real gain but it was what I wanted and after all it's just a hobby. :-)


Now on the scaled down version there is one very important mod that may be quite useful if I ever get around to finishing the other barrel for it, a quick change barrel set-up based on the Ruger 10/22 barrel attach design that should allow for a switch barrel between the 22 WMR and 17 HMR. I will see if I can get up some pics of that today.

[John Allen]

I wish I had the time to learn and do this. Those pics are great.

[Billthomas]

I was going to modify the trigger mechanism, it would eliminate some of the internal milling steps, and make a stronger action, I can always try on the next one, HA. The Mann Neider firing pin was a positive variation from the original design, the link modification was not really needed, if the front of the finger lever is timed to contact the flat mainspring at first movement the pressure is removed from the hammer, I should have went that way and then modified the hammer if needed. There is no "wrong" idea on building projects, just good experience, I have one in the corner that is a modification of a high wall by the Fix brothers, and I'm trying to modify that, it never ends. I tried to build a "perfect" single shot and it has a problem, it has been sitting for a few years, and while working on this project I do believe the solution popped into my thick head Bill T.

[Billthomas]

John, Please start, research some literature, particularly by Frank DeHass, he has some designs that can be built with minimum skills and equipment, I would post my first attempt at this but its pretty scary, don't give up. If you need a list of starter books let me know. Some attention is being focused on this hobby because of the computer generated plastic "guns", they are already making noise about "home made", hope this goes away, but I doubt it. Bill T.

[Frank46]

Bill, I'm impressed at your taking a lump of metal and making a beautiful firearm out of it. And your shop is way too clean. Wish my garage/shop looked that good. Keep posting. Frank

[Billthomas]

If you look at things from a different view point you can convince yourself that the cost of a few single shot rifles applied to the purchase of the machinery to do it yourself puts you half way there, a lenient wife is also an asset. I was shamed into cleaning up the shop by a good buddy, his looks like a operating room, but he hasn't built a rifle yet. The material for the shop is pole barn siding from a local salvage yard, same story with the diamond plate for the cabinets and benches, all done on the cheap, good luck. Bill T.

[Billthomas]

The no pin or screw showing is the Holy Grail of gun design, look at the Shirley post and no screws or pins show. The design I have been playing with has no pins or screws showing and the internals are removed by opening the action lever and a small lever in the forearm then all the parts slide out the bottom in one assembly. Bill T

[Billthomas]

122806122807122808122809122810Trigger group, positioning the parts on the end of a "tree" eases the problem of holding them for milling, layout, filing and drilling. This will be the last pics, when its cased I'll post it under projects. Thanks for viewing, I learned a lot in the process, hope you enjoyed. Bill T.

[arjacobson]

Bill-EXCELLENT work. I have been itching to build one of these!! You should do a tutorial on weaponsguild!

[Billthomas]

Thanks, I hope you start, when you do if I can be of help personal message me, and I'll do my best. Very few people in my area are interested in this "hobby" but I did help my neighbor build one and he did all the work himself, he did trade for an old mill, but had no experience, its a 45-70 and has been proofed fired, just needs the final finish, I relate this to dispel the concept of "no experience", don't look at the whole project, just one step at a time. Thanks again, Bill T.

[Billthomas]

124649Ready for polish and case hardening, that's it till spring, thanks for the responses. BT

[woodbutcher]

:bigsmyl2: Hi Bill.You da man.Outstanding craftsmanship sir.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[rbertalotto]

Bill,

Beautiful shop! I love the diamond plate cabinets!

Your work is superb! I do a bunch of gunsmithing as a hobby but I've not built an action yet. I just got off the phone with the fellow from Missouiri Trading and I ordered a Remington Hepburn kit. This will be my first foray into finishing an action. Should be fun and keep me out of trouble this winter!

http://www.uppermotradingco.com/images/RemingtonHepburnKitth.jpg

Machined kit - $595.00
Unmachined kit - $395.00
(plus $15 shipping & handling)

[Billthomas]

Way to go, I looked at their ad and it takes me back, I purchased a lot of barrels from Bauska, and blueprints from the people in Texas, Tools International as I remember, please post a pic of the action parts before you start, and as you progress. If I can help, no problem. B T.

[oldred]

Bill are you using 8620 steel for these actions? Since they are to be color cased I can assume they are not 4140 such as I used on both my rifles but I have 8620 on hand to work with. My new project is about to start, in fact I have already laid out the internal parts and I am about to start making chips but after talking with the fellas on the BPCR section here I have made a few changes to my plans. The 4140HT material is super strong and polishes/blues nicely but I truly would like to color case this new receiver so I am considering using 8620 this time. Do you do your own color casing or do you send it out? Have you had problems with warpage (my biggest concern!) or dimensional changes? Since this one is going to be another 458 caliber (I have settled on 45-100 this time) I am thinking of slightly enlarging the receiver and threading the barrel lug to 1" 16 thread for a strength increase, that 15/16" 16 barrel lug is probably the weakest point in this design when chambering for large cases, Thoughts on that?

[M-Tecs]

Bill

Very nice work and shop.

[Billthomas]

Oldred, good to hear from you, I do my own case hardening, sometimes I get good colors, sometimes not, then I rust blue. I have to make some more bone charcoal, some say that's the secret. I have used other materials, but 8620 is hard to beat. I have used 1 x16 threads on a thick side, you have to alter the main spring port under the barrel threads, but its doable. I fudge a few dimensions now and then, sometimes not on purpose, I now start the rec. width at 1.400, that makes the figuring easier, and if all goes well I can do a paneled one and add 30% strength to the side walls. If you ever want to talk privately, pm me. On the warpage I've been lucky, but where the lower tang screws go I always put in a filler block, using those screw holes. B. T.

[Billthomas]

M-tecs, I kept it like a pig sty for years and at the point where I spent more time looking for the parts I made, than the time to make them, I had to face reality, it's not really me, but I'm trying to live with it. Thanks, BT.

[big bore 99]

Been following this thread and want to say that's nice work. I've been a toolmaker/prototype builder for over 47 years. Had my own small shop for the last 25.
Had a couple Bridgeports with power feed and DRO and a few lathes and surface grinder, etc. I used to pack harden small parts in a cake pan with Casenite usually got a nice coloring. Anyway, sold it all off a couple years ago. Thought I'd never want to see that stuff again, but following this thread, it gives me the itch. Hope it passes...

[oldred]

Oldred, good to hear from you, I do my own case hardening, sometimes I get good colors, sometimes not, then I rust blue. I have to make some more bone charcoal, some say that's the secret. I have used other materials, but 8620 is hard to beat. I have used 1 x16 threads on a thick side, you have to alter the main spring port under the barrel threads, but its doable. I fudge a few dimensions now and then, sometimes not on purpose, I now start the rec. width at 1.400, that makes the figuring easier, and if all goes well I can do a paneled one and add 30% strength to the side walls. If you ever want to talk privately, pm me. On the warpage I've been lucky, but where the lower tang screws go I always put in a filler block, using those screw holes. B. T.


On that main spring port I had planned to alter that anyway even if I did use the 15/16" barrel lug, that port just cuts too closely to the threads to suit me. Since I use the coil main spring that spring only loads the lever anyway and in that configuration the port does not need to be cut so close to the barrel lug, probably nothing to be concerned about but a bit more "meat" in that area makes me feel better. I have not yet decided which material to use and while I have an oven I have not tried color casing but now just might be the time, I was looking at Brownells color casing mixture but from what I have heard it's a bit pricey for what it is and apparently it does not yield any better results than most home mixtures.

[M-Tecs]

I haven't tried this source http://www.ebonex.com/b_bla.htm but it has been recommended to me for bone charcoal.

Excellent thread here http://www.marlin-collectors.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=3732

[Billthomas]

Oldred, I don't think you need that spring at all, Winchester did away with it in the coil spring model, they did add a small coil spring and cup to keep things snug, I have a pic if you need it. When you say you use a coil main spring, are you saying "mouse trap" type or a long coil? I would really like to see a pic of that. I have a project that is in limbo, I tried using the hammer spring from a AR-15 and its not strong enough, I need to change my approach.

[oldred]

By coil spring I mean the mouse trap type that Winchester used on the later versions, I did however toy with the idea f using a different type spring for the lever but in the end I just used the barrel mounted spring for that -simple and works quite well. On the new rifle I am starting that barrel mounted spring won't be there nor will the forearm be attached directly to the barrel, However I still plan on using the Winchester style coil for the main spring.


I don't think you need that spring at all, Winchester did away with it in the coil spring model, they did add a small coil spring and cup to keep things snug, I have a pic if you need it.

Yes I would be interested in a pic of that set-up, I couldn't find a picture of it on the 'net and both original rifles I had used for reference used the flat main spring.

[Billthomas]

I'm really having problems, I have pics in the ether.124810

[Billthomas]

Oldred, I have hundreds of section views like this, any time you need, don't hesitate. Bill t

[oldred]

That's much clear than looking looking at an original without disassembling it, both of the ones I disassembled for reference were flat fspring models although one had been converted to the coil for the hammer and just left the original spring for the lever. After getting well into the first project I decided to use the coil spring but since the flat spring was already made and the lever was fitted it was much simpler to just do it that way, on the small scaled down 22 Magnum version of that rifle I tinkered around trying to figure out a different lever spring arrangement but the original flat type again seemed like the simplest way of doing it. This time however I don't want that spring placing pressure against the barrel so the coil type lever spring will be used.

Thanks, the timing was perfect on that one since I had been doing some thinking about it before the subject even came up here.

[Billthomas]

125129 The material to be removed at x is radius x.4, using dividers lay out your lines, and free hand using both hand wheels, take you time, don't climb cut and don't try to do it in one pass. You can see the radius is not constant, so look at a few pics to be sure of your layout. That radius location is not on any print that I have seen, nor can it be arrived at with the data available, the factory used models for setup and filing. Hope this helps.

[Billthomas]

I done it again, I answered a question and wiped out the requesters post. WOW

[oldred]

Bill I got started on the breechblock for the new rifle and I'm curious as to how you machine the lever/block link recess into the breechblock? I mount the block on a vertical turntable and mill this curved recess with a long end mill but I was wondering about other means to accomplish this task?

[Billthomas]

I've looked at the prints many times and what they show is impossible, if you use the Mann Nieder setup it makes it a lot simpler, then I do an angle from both sides being careful to miss the firing pin hole. I'm doing the polishing on those two now so they are apart on the bench, I'll try to take a pic and post tomorrow. I do have an R-8 arbor that takes the horizontal milling cutters and even with that I can't come to print. Let me puzzle on it some.

[oldred]

The way I mill the recess using the turntable it comes out with the proper curve but it also leaves the bottom rounded instead of flat, I suppose the only practical way of matching the factory design is to cast the breechblock. Since the bottom of the recess is left rounded I have found I need to go a bit deeper, being careful not to cut into the firing pin cavity, but this still leaves the sides not quite deep enough. The end of the link then must be rounded otherwise the outside edges of the end will bind, while this does work quite well there is precious little room for error getting enough clearance without either cutting into the firing pin hole or having to round off the edges of the link so much as to cut into the pin hole or even having both situations occur. Again, this works just fine once it's accomplished but it has been quite tricky for me to get it right and I was just curious if there might be a simpler way of doing it.

[Billthomas]

I looked at the prints again, and the center of the radius is inside of the part. That would be impossible, unless they used a fixture that held the part and it reciprocated around the radius, and used a single point tool that was fed in like a shaper. Try looking at it using a lathe and you can see the possibilities125337

[Billthomas]

129727129728129729Modernized High Wall, with tang area the same as a Sharps Borchardt, striker fired, cocks using a modified link with a roller, about 80% complete but still a prototype, still have to shorten that extension protruding at the front, it will hold a ball and spring to secure the finger lever if needed, also the central extractor\ejector, right now its handy to hold the action by. This "design" was started by starting with a high wall drawing and adding the striker parts, should have built a go cart. Thanks, BT

[oldred]

Ahh' this is gonna be good! :-P

When I started my first rifle my intention was to use the basic Browning design and build an action I could claim as my own but the more I got into it I realized the back in 1885 the Winchester guys had already made all the really good improvements to the Browning design when they designed the model 1885 High/Low wall. At that point I just gave up and completed it as a sort of High Wall with the changes I had already made resulting in little more than a few non-functional cosmetic differences. That is not at all the case I am seeing here! That is indeed very different and looks to be an incredibly strong and functional action, have you decided on a caliber yet and will the extractor/ejector work with a rimless case?


BTW, Bill I have some nice Walnut if you need some. It's about 11 months dry at this point so it should be ready to work sometime this summer, if you need a piece let me know.

[Billthomas]

I believe that extractor can be made to work both ways, at present I have a 7 mm Mag barrel with a 1x18 thread, its already chambered deeper to allow fitting room, I got it from Flounderman for some work I did. It may not be the best choice, but its the cheap way for me. When I started this concept I had a small shaper, so I roughed out six of these receivers and probably got a little ahead of myself, three are used now and the fervor is getting thin, possible trade in the future? thanks, BT