Stealth Hunting with Firearms

[PatMarlin]

I'm interested in knowledge, opinions (or even theories), on ways we can hunt with our firearms, but draw the least attention in an area possible.


Items like sub-sonic loads, etc. for a variety of the common firearms we all own. Big bore to small bore. Cast boolits to shot. Rimfire to centerfire and muzzleloaders. Using your big bore lever action for birds. Multitasking with one firearm. Pistol to rifles.


Would be greatly interested in what's your favorite caliber and firearm for a particular game animal, large and small.


Maybe one day we may need to do more hunting, and it would be an advantage to be able to hunt game without all the full house BANG and needless attention in some areas.


So if anyone's interested in this subject lets roll with it... :drinks:

[starmac]

Just fire one shot, it really doesn't matter how loud it is. It is rare a person can tell from what direction one shot came from, two or more and they can hone in on the sound.

[Catshooter]

Silencers (or suppressors if you're really tactical) can be helpful.

Cat sneeze loads are very effective for both noise and killing power. Especially big bores like the 45-70.

Paco Kelly wrote an article about using round ball in his .348 Winchester to kill some grouse and two does during a hunting trip once. Very lightly loaded.


Cat

[PatMarlin]

Hey Cat...!

Paco is he still around?

[starmac]

The longer a barrel is the quieter they seem with same loads compared to short barrels. My only mold for the 45 colt is the 300 gr lee. Just playing around I tried 6 grains of unique and it sounded more like a 22 in the long barreled marlin. I doubt it would be an affective big game killer, but it killed the clay pidgeons quietly and positively. lol

[44man]

My opinion is to heck with others, shoot to kill. people that move to hunting areas should have stayed where they came from if it bothers them.

[44man]

What does it take to use a suppressor? Class 3 or what. Plus many thousands to get one and fit it.
Since I use revolvers, kind of funny anyway.

[Smoke4320]

Actually the tax stamp for a suppressor is only $200.00
Wait time for that stamp is approx. 9 months

[dragon813gt]

What does it take to use a suppressor? Class 3 or what. Plus many thousands to get one and fit it.
Since I use revolvers, kind of funny anyway.

If your CLEO signs off on the forms you pay for the supressor, pay the $200 tax stamp and wait 9 months to a year to receive the stamp.

If your CLEO won't sign off then you have the added cost of forming a trust. But there is an added benefit to a trust at the moment. Trusts are able to submit forms electronically which drastically cuts the wait time. Average time is around three months, when the system is up and running.

The NFA is garbage to begin w/. But supressors should not be on there. They are encouraged in Europe to keep noise pollution down. They make it safer on your ears, obviously, which is great for young and old alike. I'm hoping they come off the NFA because costs would come down dramatically. A can w/ baffles in it does not warrant the current prices if the market was opened up. W/ it being a closed one the prices are higher then they should be.

[richhodg66]

Won't work for big game, but I've been using 1.5 grains of Bullseye in .22 Hornet loads and have found them to be accurate enough for squirrels at realistic small game ranges for me. Quieter than a .22 LR, you can barely hear it at the range with ear muffs on while shooting.

[PatMarlin]

Unfortunately, I live in the Golden state and we are not deemed competent to own suppressors.

[HABCAN]

In any .30 cal. I've tried it in, from .32-20 to .303 Brit or '06, the little LEE flat-nose on 5.0grs. of Red Dot is more effective on suitable targets than any .22 rimfire out to about 100 yds., quiet and quite accurate. I bored out the GC base with a 5/16" drill to make a PB.

[barrabruce]

i believe in the one shot theory too.

stealth hunting then one must blend in

are we talking about poaching ducks in the park pond or sneaking though the scrub.

i'm more attuned to a slow stumble around these days or just sit under a shady tree and see what turns up.
I can't stoop and walk well anymore let alone crawl or sliver. If I did I'd probably have to have a nanny nap after a short distance.
Springing up to take a shot is petty well much out.

[PatMarlin]

Wonder if a soda can PB gas check would improve that 30 cal as well?

Be nice to have a selection of light and heavy loads in your pocket- even some type of shot load in a sabot or something to get a decent range out of lever actions too. Lever actions are such a great tool. 45 Colt, 45-70, 35 Rem, and 30-30 to work with.

[PatMarlin]

Nope- not talkn' about poaching... lol. One shot always rules.

I'm talking about hunting where it's legal, but close as possible to home. Hunting for food. This would be in earshot of other homes. You never know with some people now days. I think it would be a good idea to develop light quiet loads that save powder as well to get the job done.

[Artful]

What does it take to use a suppressor? Class 3 or what. Plus many thousands to get one and fit it.
Since I use revolvers, kind of funny anyway.

If you live in free or semi free state that allow ownership of can's.
http://www.silencershop.com/support/how-to-buy-a-silencer/
You have to pay a $200 tax to the Fed's and submit paperwork for a background check - you can apply as an individual, Corp or Trust to purchase. Price of suppressors varies depending upon the company and caliber - if your shooting cast I suggest getting one that disassembles for cleaning.

As to Revolver's and suppressors
1895 Nagant is easily suppressed, loading the ammo - not so much but factory ammo is subsonic
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/rowdyfisk/FAL/1895NagantRevolverthreadedbarrel.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/rowdyfisk/media/FAL/1895NagantRevolverthreadedbarrel.jpg.html)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvF4yurWSc0
http://www.jgsales.com/images/2%20762%20NAG%20AMMO%20PRIV%20PART.JPG
100 grain pills at 1000 fps or so with this cartridge.

or you can go more exotic
http://oda141teamroom.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/psdr-3.jpg

or more exotic yet
Knight's Armament Design for the .gov boys...
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p22/StaceyC123/RevolverRifle.jpg
The Knight's Armament requires special ammo with a Sabot that delivers the 30 caliber bullet to the barrel and seals the cylinder gap.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSo7zBb1zsV7l_YqUmwl5f-qupqemnKmLGAa6dkkjUwMG9wemWKYw
http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag97/Gunny-50/KAC-357M_556-00_zpsf3a279af.png
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=129656
http://www.gods-inc.de/macavity/IsleOfShadows/weapons/Castech/sr_Wr09.html (http://www.gods-inc.de/macavity/IsleOfShadows/weapons/Castech/sr_Wr09.html)

Pat being your in the People's Republik of Kalifornia with many restrictions - No Suppressor, No Lead Boolits for hunting , etc.

You many have to get creative - the Cat's Sneeze loads work well with longer barreled rifles - Trailboss is a great powder for developing subsonic ammo - a Chronograph is a must have and keep the loads under 1050 fps.
As you approach and exceed the sound barrier speeds the noise from the projectile increases significantly.
http://www.silencerresearch.com/bulnoise.GIF

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/arcane1.html
http://guns.connect.fi/gow/arcane2.html
http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/DevelopSubsonic.html
http://www.castbullet.com/shooting/rb30.htm

Remember if your speed is limited to subsonic - then mass rules as far as energy increase - you have to also remember that the larger the projectile the more air it displaces when moving so the more noise it makes.
The 22 sounds much less noisy than the 45 slug.

[Artful]

Not a great video but give you the idea of subsonic sounds from a distance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddSqQjAM6xs

Another good video - but salty language is on it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnU8o53z-WE

and 22LR with longer barrel - sub vs super
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7kNoAhXqH4

Terminal Performance of Subsonic is something to think about
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1Q7xRmZAtk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ag-dtVjHz4 - NOE's 300 blackout cast
So don't think heart lung but CNS/Head-spine - like using an Ice pick

- Leheigh explanding subsonic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zuu5OMNy2gs

[starmac]

Thinking on this some more, It would kind of depend on what part of the country a guy was in too. Lots of birds (grouse) killed here with a rifle. Everything from a 22 to a guys moose hunting gun, but some states do not allow a rifle for turkeys. In some parts of the country a shotgun would probably be the best do it all gun, but we aren't talking quiet. I know guys that hunt small game with a 54 cal muzzy, mainly to stay in practice with their rifle, instead of swapping up. This works pretty well loaded down. I am thinking any of your levers could be loaded down to fairly quiet small game levels, and a couple of big game loads in a pocket and the ability to change the sights quickly in the field would be very versatile. For deer in the vicinity of too many folks, with some likely to be anti hunting, It would be a tossup as far as quiet or the ability to anchor them without giving the deer a chance of running up on ones back porch before cashing in. lol

Side note, I have on my must aquire list in the next year or so that Exact mill you are getting rid of and some kind of skidsteer, I already have the drill rig. lol
What motor do you have on the LT40?

[IDSS]

I have a .44 Special load using the Lee 200 grain RNFP (which drops at around 210 with my alloy) and 5.5 grains of Unique that goes mid 700's from my 20 inch Rossi. It's maybe louder than a .22LR but hits roughly like .45 ACP.
I've done in one coyote with it and he went down pretty easy. I imagine it would do in a deer at close range, as well.

[Lonegun1894]

What does it take to use a suppressor? Class 3 or what. Plus many thousands to get one and fit it.
Since I use revolvers, kind of funny anyway.

My last one for a .308 cost me a bit shy of $800 and that was including the $200 tax stamp. I'm with the guys who say suppressors shouldn't be controlled any more than ear muffs are, but hopefully we can accomplish that someday soon. In the mean time, I'd say the best bet is subsonic loads. I have been playing with various toys off and on developing quiet loads, but so far, one of my quietest is a 22" H&R Handirifle in .44 Mag with a 240gr Lee SWC pushed by 2.7grs of Unique or Red Dot. This load sounds like my pellet gun but has taken several hogs at 50yds and under with head shots. Here's the way I see it. A suppressor is basically a glorified car muffler, and the larger the internal volume, the quieter it usually is as long as subsonic loads go so you don't have to worry about flight noise as much. Having said that, and keep internal volume of the barrel in mind, the larger the caliber and the longer the barrel, the quieter it will be. I use the same powder charge in a .30-30, .308, .30-06, and .303 Brit with appropriate 90-180gr bullets. The heavier bullets in the longer barreled guns are definitely quieter. Not silent, but quiet enough that I use any of these for garden pest control day and night and have taken pests while neighbors were outside BBQing and the only comment that has been said was by one neighbor asking if we can get together with out pellet guns and do some squirrel hunting sometime. I didn't bother to tell him that I had just fired a No 4 Mk 1 Enfield in .303 Brit.

[starmac]

How many so called free states where a silencer is legal to own, is it legal to hunt with.
I am not saying it shouldn't change, but I doubt it will even be an option at any cost for the duration of my lifetime in most states.

[Lonegun1894]

I know Texas allows it. And want to say Alaska does too if I remember right from when I read yall's regs a while back.

[starmac]

I will have to check, but I don't think Ak allows them for hunting. We can own them. I grew up in Texas, but never knew they were legal to hunt with. I did know at least one poacher that built and used his own and used it in Texas though.

[Digital Dan]

Thought that crosses my mind regarding the OP goes not so much to the gun, but how it is employed. It goes without saying that reduce noise has intrinsic benefits, but there is a question as to what level of quiet is required.

For purposes of this discussion, I won't be talking about suppressed weapons. They work certainly, but it the main I doubt their necessity.

For or the purpose of hunting, the first consideration to me is whether or not the gun will be effective on the intended quarry. Secondly, is the gun and shooter capable of putting the bullet where it needs to go? Third, is the shooter sufficiently proficient that he can close on the quarry for the shot? If the answers to those questions is affirmative then the last consideration is how quiet does the gun need to be?
I can't answer that for any particular situation that YOU might encounter, just the ones I do. Here is how I do it.

I still ill hunt with rifles and only on rare occasion do I just sit and wait. Seldom do I shoot further than 20 yards on any game when I'm in my AO. Mild mannered subs work fine but all of my shots are CNS shots, no exceptions.

I made add a terrible mistake a few years ago. Shot 5 hogs without taking a step, and it totaled up to about 600# of pork. Only the sixth got away. He was more puzzled than frightened. No neighbors complained. I was sick of skinning pigs by the time it was all said and done.

CB shorts are not toys. Neither is any other subsonic load. If you doubt that, shoot yourself with a 1911 Colt and let us know how that worked out for you.

[DanWalker]

Wyoming allows it too. One of the arguments made in favor of silencers for hunting was that it makes it harder for grizzlies to pinpoint where the shot came from. Bears in some areas here have come to associate gunfire with fresh elk meat, and will actively seek out the source of the shooting in hopes of stealing the elk from the hunters. I plan on taking a few grouse with my Gemtech Outback silenced browning buckmark next month when I get home.

[RugerFan]

The revolver bird shot loads I detailed here http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?218487-Bird-shot-loads-for-revolvers&highlight= (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?218487-Bird-shot-loads-for-revolvers&highlight), are not exactly "quiet" but are less noisy than full power boolit loads. Shooting them without hearing protection doesn't bother me.


What does it take to use a suppressor? Class 3 or what. Plus many thousands to get one and fit it.
Since I use revolvers, kind of funny anyway.

Thousands? You can get a good suppressor for $500 or less. Rim fire suppressors for $299. (http://www.coastalgun.com/Home/Suppressors/RimFireSuppressors/Passport.aspx)

[roverboy]

My opinion is to heck with others, shoot to kill. people that move to hunting areas should have stayed where they came from if it bothers them.

Exactly right. A lot of people from the city do that, and wonder why there's hunting and shooting happening on their neighbors property all around them.

[Lonegun1894]

I will have to check, but I don't think Ak allows them for hunting. We can own them. I grew up in Texas, but never knew they were legal to hunt with. I did know at least one poacher that built and used his own and used it in Texas though.

Texas allowed possession, as long as you obeyed the NFA laws, but did not allow hunting use until last year for game animals. So before last year, you could use them for coyote, hog, etc. but nothing listed as a "game animal" such as deer, turkey, and such. Never made much sense, but they have been considering it for a while and it finally passed.

[timspawn]

Ruger 77/44 suppressed. It is spooky quiet with factory Win 44spl. FL is getting closer to allowing cans for hunting. GA will allow it for the first time this season.

[RugerFan]

A friend gave me some CCI Quiet-22 ammo (.22 RF). As the name implies, they are extremely low noise (without a suppressor). Seemed no worse than a pellet gun.

I believe hunting with a suppressor in GA is legal.

[44man]

I hear gunfire all around me, even from town and love that second amendment rights are so important so as long as there is a good backstop, I have no gripes at all. I shoot big stuff on my range, even had a friend here with a .50 BMG with no complaints.
However in places like England they encourage a silencer to keep noise from tender ears.
I feel they should be legal anywhere. I do not like the idea of a fee to own one. I do not agree with the junk needed to carry either. I believe open carry with a six gun on the hip is American. So is a slung rifle. I would love to see every law abiding person in Wall Mart with a gun. I want teachers in school armed to the teeth.
Felons with guns are not prosecuted to federal law if caught with a gun. The solution to crime is every one with a gun.

[Wolfer]

My full power hunting loads are considerably quieter than jacketed loads.
In a long barrel 30-06 a soft 220 gr boolit with a small HP is very quiet when pushed to 1000 fps with a fast powder like bullseye or clays.
Its also quite potent when placed in the right spot.

[quilbilly]

Just fire one shot, it really doesn't matter how loud it is. It is rare a person can tell from what direction one shot came from, two or more and they can hone in on the sound.
Absolutely true. Been there done that with coyotes in an urbanized area where the coyotes got dangerous but the bunny huggers didn't want the coyotes shot. Also, do your own terminal ballistics tests on the gun and load you want to use to determine the minimum load (muzzle velocity) to do the job penetration wise on what you want to kill at 50 yards and let that be your guide.

[MT Gianni]

Wonder if a soda can PB gas check would improve that 30 cal as well?

Be nice to have a selection of light and heavy loads in your pocket- even some type of shot load in a sabot or something to get a decent range out of lever actions too. Lever actions are such a great tool. 45 Colt, 45-70, 35 Rem, and 30-30 to work with.
That Lee 113 is cheap enough to have a pb and gc ones. Run them at different velocities and mark the noses with a colored marker.

[xacex]

Actually the tax stamp for a suppressor is only $200.00
Wait time for that stamp is approx. 9 months
Doing a form 1 on eforms is only taking 1-2 month now. Once you have your stamp the parts are sold on ebay as a "solvent trap" look for the D cell. I don't think Pat has the option down there in California unfortunately.
Edit: Saw one today that someone posted. A form 1 efiled at 4pm on Oct 16th was approved by Oct 17th at 1am. 9 hours! http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1677470_Those_Form_1s_sure_are_a_long_wait_.html

[xtphreak]

How many so called free states where a silencer is legal to own, is it legal to hunt with.
I am not saying it shouldn't change, but I doubt it will even be an option at any cost for the duration of my lifetime in most states.

http://accurateshooter.net/Blog/silencermapx600.jpg

[PatMarlin]

Thanks for posting that Art!

[PatMarlin]

I want to start back up R&D on and old Idea I have for birdshot out of a Marlin 45-70 in a manner that produces a tighter pattern for longer ranges, then just a shot load. If it works, I will start PatHornady... and retire... :mrgreen:

[PatMarlin]

The Sub Sonic suppressed 308 is amazing. Sounds like a hammer hitting a nail. I have a close friend who makes really nice suppressors for a living in another state, but I can't have one... :(

[RugerFan]

http://accurateshooter.net/Blog/silencermapx600.jpg

That map is a little out of date. The current GA hunting regs state on page 8:

"SUPPRESSED FIREARMS are now legal for hunting on private land with landowner permission."


I believe that started 3 years ago.

[MT Gianni]

Montana's argument against comes from FWP for big game hunting. They fear not hearing a shot reduces their ability to enforce.

[DanWalker]

Montana's argument against comes from FWP for big game hunting. They fear not hearing a shot reduces their ability to enforce.
Someone needs to stand up to these goons and their outdated thinking. I'd like to see them supply some data showing how many poachers they have caught in the last FIFTY years that have used a suppressor of any type. Then have them show the data for how many hunters have been stalked or charged by grizzlies who have learned to seek out the source of a gunshot for an easy meal.

[nagantguy]

The realnlow cost no noise no nonsense game getter I've ever used is a crossbow! From hogs to deer to feral cats. Is getting food without letting anyone know your even there its great and nfa/fed tax or stamp no name on a list. Sorry if ya just meant firearms but I dealt with the same issue you are asking about and have had amazing success! Still love my stick bows and compounds but the flat bow is much easier to master and as accurate as any center fire with in its range, which on mine is 70 yards that's as far as I can keep all bolts on a 4 inch plate. Used ones are relatively cheap just ask to.fire it first and look over it good. Shot a woodchuck with mime out the back door in the garden once, wife and daughter were in the living room 15 feet away and and they only looked back cause they heard a thwack. Any game out to 70 yards and no noise says winner winner venision dinner.

[Artful]

That map is a little out of date. The current GA hunting regs state on page 8:

"SUPPRESSED FIREARMS are now legal for hunting on private land with landowner permission."


I believe that started 3 years ago.
http://accurateshooter.net/Blog/silencermapx600.jpg

that's why they put the
*Silencer laws are subject to frequent change and interpretation. This map does not constitute legal advice.
To ensure full compliance, consult a local attorney for an accurate interpretation prior to usage.
:bigsmyl2:

[RugerFan]

that's why they put the
*Silencer laws are subject to frequent change and interpretation. This map does not constitute legal advice.
To ensure full compliance, consult a local attorney for an accurate interpretation prior to usage.
:bigsmyl2:

I realize that. Just giving out facts. 3 months ago might be considered "frequent." 3 years is enough time to change the map. Still a handy resource though.

I was surprised to see just how many states did allow hunting with suppressors. I would have thought it was considerably fewer. Quite an eye opener.

[starmac]

Are the large bore air rifles legal in Cali. I have done no research on them, but they just might be the ticket in overly urban areas.

[barrabruce]

getting off the silencer thing for a second.
how would a radically back bore long barrel 22lr or such sound compared to normal.
always wanted to try something like that as those muzzle assessories are ill eagle over the pond here and mucho big trouble.

[skizzums]

the 300blackout is quiet, it hits hard, is accurate and is like a dream come true for us boolit casters. I don't think there is any other way to go outside of a rimfire. of course I do hear those 38 caliber airguns are getting pretty powerful.
http://www.airgundepot.com/benjamin-rogue-bpe3571.html


but for 1500 bucks, I would rather just go suppressed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBAFq1qswks&src_vid=fj5Aq7bz-tI&feature=iv&annotation_id=annotation_2087162169
I duno, second though, this thing is pretty hardcore

[truckjohn]

So.. While silencers are cool and all....
They do add another level of expense and regulation to the issue... I am not really convinced that they are necessary for quiet hunting.... They also raise concerns when they are seen by neighbors...

So... Google up the old Gun-mag articles by Harvey Donaldson... He was a back-east hunter and was a huge proponent of compact and quiet rifles for hunting in populated places.... For him - a 10-acre woodlot next to town was "Big" and shots were typically well inside of 50 yards.... He and P.O. Ackley went round and round and round - and eventually Ackley with his bigger, hotter magnums won out - and now everybody thinks a 30-06 is just too small to hunt squirrels in the back yard....

As you say - when you are hunting around houses - not bothering folks or shaking windows is a real big plus... The limited distance for the shot travelling is another....

Gun wise - I would start with whatever you already have.... 30-30, 7.62x39, pistol carbine, etc....

Go for under 1,000 fps
Go for heavy bullets rather than light....
small charges of pistol or fast shotgun powder...

You likely need to drill out the flash holes for proper ignition...

Another thing that helps is a *Very* compact single shot rifle that's easily concealed.... Nothing creeps out neighbors like somebody roaming around with a gun.... but something "Antique" looking doesn't have the same effect... like say an ancient looking lever action or something that looks like an ancient single barrel shotgun.... Iron sights also tone down the "Look" of the gun... and generally - you don't need a scope inside of 50 yards...

Once you get them down below 800 fps - they just go *pop* when the gun goes off... It sounds like a kid's pop-cork gun and it doesn't arouse suspicions....

But... those heavy bullets still penetrate just fine, especially up close....

Thanks

[Nueces]

Hey Cat...!

Paco is he still around?

Pat, look over here http://www.leverguns.com

[xacex]

Finished my form 1 paperwork, and efiled last week. Well, so far my wait has been more than 9 hours....

[yondering]

I just recently finished a form 1 suppressor, applied mid-august and got approved mid-september, total time was about 30 days.

Here are pics of my quiet hunter, shown next to my Rem 700 with a standard length barrel (22"), they are the same length with the suppressor attached. The pump gun is currently a 35 Remington, soon to be a 358 Win, but I'm using it for heavy subsonic loads with the suppressor, 255gr @ 1000 fps, which I hope to try on deer this season. The suppressor has a quick-detach system, using an interrupted thread on the muzzle brakes and flash hiders I've made for several of my rifles, so it locks on with 1/6th turn, and only takes a second to attach or remove.

I made a D-reamer in the shape of the bullet I wanted, and reamed out an old Lee mold. Came out at 270gr solid, but the hollow point brings it back down to 255gr. Expansion is impressive, and the sound of impact on meat or water jugs is the loudest part of the shot. I'm loading this over a light charge of Bullseye; also doing the same with a couple 9mm/357 molds in 105gr and 158gr. Regardless if you're using a suppressor or not, the fast powders like Bullseye are the way to go for a quiet subsonic load.

(this pic shows my 255gr boolit in 38 Spl and 35 Whelen brass, but I'm mainly loading it in 35 Rem.)

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/molds/IMG_2765.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/Misc/IMG_0701.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/Misc/IMG_0700.jpg

[DanWalker]

VERY Cool. Would you mind sharing some more specifics about the can you built? I'm wanting to build a couple of my own. Once I find a design I think I can replicate with my meager machine skills I will submit a form 1. I looked at the designs using freeze plugs for baffles and chainlink fence posts for a body, but I imagine they would be HEAVY.

[NVScouter]

A nitrogen tank and a few thousand PSI would make any 45-70 deadly and quiet.


Unfortunately, I live in the Golden state and we are not deemed competent to own suppressors.

[1845greyhounds]

A nitrogen tank and a few thousand PSI would make any 45-70 deadly and quiet.

Not as quiet as you'd hope. I have an Anschutz 2025 (pre-charged pneumatic, .177" cal air rifle that produces ~18ft-lb energy = ~900 fps with heavy pellets). It sounds like a 22 LR and begs for a moderator.

[xacex]

VERY Cool. Would you mind sharing some more specifics about the can you built? I'm wanting to build a couple of my own. Once I find a design I think I can replicate with my meager machine skills I will submit a form 1. I looked at the designs using freeze plugs for baffles and chainlink fence posts for a body, but I imagine they would be HEAVY.

All the more reason to do a SBR. I was looking at the Apogee products stainless tube with threads on the inside, but as you mention it is heavy. Another company will have steel end caps available in a week or so allowing use in full power rifles. You can use aluminum tubes, and end-caps to save weight, but I would not use them for anything more than subsonic, or pistols. There has been aluminum used in full power loads before, but I would not want to risk the thing turning into a grenade. Everything you need can be purchased on ebay now with the approval of solvent traps by the BATF. Sounds strange to me because I was always under the impression that if you had the parts laying around it was constructive intent. Things must have changed somewhere, but I will stick with what I remember the law being. I will be doing a 30 cal can, and using it on my 300 Blackout pistol. Don't quite know the direction I am going with the build yet so I just put it in as 7.62mm, and 12" long. I know for a fact it will not be longer than that when done, and I can make it shorter than what is listed, but not longer.
Give us some detail on your can Yondering! I like the attachment point end cap. That boolit would work great in the 358 MGP. I have been tinkering with the idea of getting that barrel and die combo, and going to a 35 cal. They are getting 358 Win performance out of a 16" barrel with that thing, and it is darn accurate too. It will need a can as well.

[yondering]

My can is a mix of aluminum and stainless, 9"x1.5", and the baffle stack consists mostly of clipped cones. I made it with a series of short spacers between baffles, so I can re-arrange them (no extra parts) and play with baffle spacing. I was surprised at the differences in performance with different baffle spacing; one way was very quiet for all but the first shot, with lots of first round pop, another way was more high pitched with no first round pop. I've settled on a moderately sized blast chamber and progressive baffle spacing (baffles closer together at the exit) for a setup that's as quiet as I can get it without any significant first round pop.

So far I've been using it on subsonic 357 rifle, 35 Whelen, 35 Remington, and 300 Blackout, and supersonic 300 Blackout. I also intend to make or buy a booster to use it on my 9mm Glock, and will use it on my 9mm Storm carbine when I get around to machining the new barrel (bought one cheap with 4-5 bullets stuck in the barrel).

I was pleasantly surprised how quiet it is on full power 300 Blackout from the 9" barrel on my AR15; it's louder than a 22 rifle, but quieter than a 22 pistol, and comfortable for me to shoot without hearing protection. That's with 110gr bullets @ 2150 fps.

Here's a pic of machining the flash hider for my 300 Blk that this can attaches to, the tool in the pic was used to cut the interruptions in the 7/8-28 tpi thread.
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/Misc/IMG_2683a.jpg

Same interrupted thread concept on my Browning Buckmark barrel. It's fairly easy to do, but each barrel must be clocked to the device that threads on, so they mate together properly:
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/Misc/IMG_2632a.jpg

[yondering]

VERY Cool. Would you mind sharing some more specifics about the can you built? I'm wanting to build a couple of my own. Once I find a design I think I can replicate with my meager machine skills I will submit a form 1. I looked at the designs using freeze plugs for baffles and chainlink fence posts for a body, but I imagine they would be HEAVY.

The most advanced part of building a suppressor is threading; if you can single-point thread on a lathe, you can build everything else easily. If you can't thread on a lathe, you can still build a welded suppressor, which can be stronger anyway if done right.

I wouldn't use freeze plugs myself; if you have lathe access, simple cones are relatively easy to make, and work well.

[freebullet]

If you use a bow no one will hear.

[DanWalker]

Awesome pics! Can we see pics of your baffles and the spacers, and how they are arranged? Thanks.

[NVScouter]

A bit of that is the way sound carries though. Sombody ealier stated that a short barrel is louder than a longer barrel. Not true at all the vent is just farther from the operator and seems louder. The soundwave produced by PCP and the sound wave produced in the 30-65L PSI range are very different.

Back off 200y and listen to both if you want to see what I mean, add trees and there ya go!


Not as quiet as you'd hope. I have an Anschutz 2025 (pre-charged pneumatic, .177" cal air rifle that produces ~18ft-lb energy = ~900 fps with heavy pellets). It sounds like a 22 LR and begs for a moderator.

[truckjohn]

The major difference between the noise from a long and short barrel is the muzzle blast caused by incomplete powder burn in the barrel.....

Classic example of this difference.....
30-06 with a 20 vs 24" barrel...

Shoot them both in the evening - and the 20" barrel model will be a fire-breather... HUGE muzzle blast... Shooting 5' + fireballs... Where the 24" barrel only blasts out maybe a 1 or 2 foot fireball...

One of the keys... Both with a "can" and with "Quiet shooting".....
You want the powder burn to be nearly complete within the barrel... Why? If you are running a can - the unburnt powder fouls up the can.... If you are "Quiet shooting" - the unburnt powder makes huge muzzle blast.....

So.. You end up going with "Fast for caliber" powders..... It makes a big difference in the "Blast"....

Thanks

[NVScouter]

I dont agree its a major difference of noise. Definitely of flash! The longer burn time and the larger the chamber to burn in the quieter the load but the ecsaping gass and bullet breaking the sound barrier are making the noise. Same as with a can the larger chamber along with baffels for noise cancelation quiet the gas release. But a supersonic bullet will still make lots of noise. I've lit off large amounts of powder on teh ground..just poofs. Even firecrackers need the paper tension to build pressue for the crack.

Plenty of loads burn 100% within 16-18" of barrel thats a matter if efficentcy. Burning in open air gives an unlimited chamber to burn so sound is less.


The major difference between the noise from a long and short barrel is the muzzle blast caused by incomplete powder burn in the barrel.....

Classic example of this difference.....
30-06 with a 20 vs 24" barrel...

Shoot them both in the evening - and the 20" barrel model will be a fire-breather... HUGE muzzle blast... Shooting 5' + fireballs... Where the 24" barrel only blasts out maybe a 1 or 2 foot fireball...

One of the keys... Both with a "can" and with "Quiet shooting".....
You want the powder burn to be nearly complete within the barrel... Why? If you are running a can - the unburnt powder fouls up the can.... If you are "Quiet shooting" - the unburnt powder makes huge muzzle blast.....

So.. You end up going with "Fast for caliber" powders..... It makes a big difference in the "Blast"....

Thanks

[skeettx]

10 mm, sub-sonic, bolt action gun or locked semi-auto, silencer, camo, gilley suit, stealth, for social stuff at close range (200 yards or less)

[yondering]

I dont agree its a major difference of noise. Definitely of flash! The longer burn time and the larger the chamber to burn in the quieter the load but the ecsaping gass and bullet breaking the sound barrier are making the noise.

You're over thinking it, or missing something. Muzzle pressure is lower in a longer barrel for a given load, whether the powder gases have completely burned or not; this translates directly to less noise. You may not be able to tell the difference with your hunting rifles, but it's pretty obvious when comparing something like .22 rifles with different barrel lengths, or most suppressed guns.

[NVScouter]

You're over thinking it, or missing something. Muzzle pressure is lower in a longer barrel for a given load, whether the powder gases have completely burned or not; this translates directly to less noise. You may not be able to tell the difference with your hunting rifles, but it's pretty obvious when comparing something like .22 rifles with different barrel lengths, or most suppressed guns.

Yes bigger chamber less muzzle pressure, and longer burn time. Time after complete burn is making it quieter due to increased chamber size.

.22s are a great example since most ammo is 100% efficient in a 12" barrel. Anything longer is quieter due to time in barrel. But in lots of .22 auto short barrel pistols main springs are very weak to cycle the slide or have a smaller slide to move. Less pressure from the short barrel. But it's 2' closer to the shooter then a 20" full stocked rifle.

Up up close the difference seems obvious pistols are louder but at a distance your perception changes.

[PatMarlin]

This has turned into an awesome thread. Had a pile of work this week and need to catch up.

I do have a bow that a friend gave me, but I know nothing about them. Need to learn it. I think it's compound, as it has pulleys and I heard it go "Pop" on day and the line broke while it was hanging in the shop... lol. I think it's a "York" brand if that means anything.

Definitely want a 300 Blackout Upper too.

[RugerFan]

I think it's a "York" brand if that means anything.


I haven't heard anything about York bows in quite a while. Like since the 80s. I believe they have been out of business for some time. If the string-pop didn't cause any limb damage, you could probably get it re-strung at an archery shop cheaply.

[popper]

I think one needs to check the local ordinances about shooting (bow, slingshot, anything) near structures, roads, etc. I think of 'stealth' as not spooking the target, not noise suppression. Reason? Several years ago I had the GKs out in the woods for a walk (private property), during season. Bang. Now I know it's time to be careful. Bullets don't only go 50 yds. I understand 'pest' eradication with quiet loads under controlled environment but don't trust the majority of hunters. Not sure I could trust most at the local range. Not speaking of anyone on this forum, of course.

[yondering]

I think one needs to check the local ordinances about shooting (bow, slingshot, anything) near structures, roads, etc. I think of 'stealth' as not spooking the target, not noise suppression. Reason? Several years ago I had the GKs out in the woods for a walk (private property), during season. Bang. Now I know it's time to be careful. Bullets don't only go 50 yds. I understand 'pest' eradication with quiet loads under controlled environment but don't trust the majority of hunters. Not sure I could trust most at the local range. Not speaking of anyone on this forum, of course.

You think guns should be loud so people can do what? Duck?

Do you use a muffler on your car? Why not also on your rifle?

[starmac]

I can assure you when a bullet comes through the tree leaves close to you, you hear it way before the boom.

[truckjohn]

I dont agree its a major difference of noise. Definitely of flash! The longer burn time and the larger the chamber to burn in the quieter the load but the ecsaping gass and bullet breaking the sound barrier are making the noise. Same as with a can the larger chamber along with baffels for noise cancelation quiet the gas release. But a supersonic bullet will still make lots of noise. I've lit off large amounts of powder on teh ground..just poofs. Even firecrackers need the paper tension to build pressue for the crack.

Plenty of loads burn 100% within 16-18" of barrel thats a matter if efficentcy. Burning in open air gives an unlimited chamber to burn so sound is less.

In theory, it sounds plausible, but in real life - it doesn't work out as you say. Burning powder in piles on the ground has nothing to do with a superheated, high pressure, supersonic column of partially burned powder as it hits the air....

Try it out for yourself... Sound is far from less with longer barrels and faster burning powders. Here's a good example...
30-06 with a 168g bullet...
2 loads, nearly the same velocity...
46 grains of IMR 4895
53 grains of IMR 4320

another example is the "Metro-extension" you can get for a shotgun... Makes the shotgun blast sound like a kid's pop gun....

That 30-06 4320 load will clear all the benches around you at the range - while the 4895 load doesn't really "Scare" folks as badly....

Tell me which one "Kicks" harder? Which one "Blasts" more?

One of my strategies for good "Hunting" loads was to find loads that tend to "Blast" less... It makes a difference - especially when hunting in dim forests and at dusk/dawn... That huge muzzle flash can temporarily blind you... but it's also significantly harder on the ears....

A funny story about those 30-06 loads....
I was testing out a variety of loads... and that 4320 load really does shoot well... I was out at the range - and a ROTC guy shows up from the local college with his pistol... He's all Hoo-Rah... Takes up the bench on my left... Proceeds to dump about 15 rounds of 9mm down the back of my shirt... I mention this to him.. Offer to switch benches... "No, man, I am OK..." Then - dumps another 15 rounds down the back of my shirt.... and that 9mm brass is HOT...

I wait till he gets ready to dump another mag of hot brass down my shirt... Right as he is about to pull the trigger.... I let go of 3 rounds out of that '06 with cases full of that slow burning powder as quick as I can fire them off....

That dude was under the bench faster than I have ever seen anybody move....

Then - he apologized for all the brass down my shirt... Packed up his junk and left.

[38Special]

This is almost a 6 year old thread, but I'm interested in quiet hunting with my firearms and loads. Specially now as I'm in an area where I can hunt in wilderness (abundant in game) surrounding an isolated but rather large home development, but I really don't want to attract needless attention.

Taking a look at your collection- with what you have to work with on hand, what would you use?

[38Special]

Would like to add (Without) a suppressor, but by other means such as calibers, loads, etc.

[GhostHawk]

Small to moderate loads of Red Dot have been noticibly quieter for me with no other changes.

You know those old time tin whistles that had a rod and a ring sticking out the far end? As you blew and pulled the rod it changed the pitch.

10 grains of Red Dot below a 310 gr cast boolit with gas check sounded like that but faster. No "Bang" but you could hear the bullet going down the barrel. Hear the pitch change. But it was real quick, and quiet. And those 300 grain bullets stacked up real nice.

3.5 gr of Red Dot in a .223rem below a 55 gr bullet is also vastly quieter than factory. Still has a bit of a pop to it, but they were slow enough so the boolit was staying below sound barrier. Inside 100 yards it was minute of squirrel head accurate. Aimed for the eye they would have all been 1 shot kills in the head.
Might need to go back and play around some more with that load, try a few with gas checks just to see what happens.

[38Special]

Awesome, I've got a good selection of 22 cal molds even some heavies and I will try some experiments. Thinking of what I got on hand, it's going to be 45-70 on one end and .223 on the other. Wish I had a 22 hornet.

Maybe play with my 22 lovell.

[popper]

Actually 5gr cfe pistol under most anything just makes a pop in BO. 100gr is faster than 185gr.

[38Special]

I still have my old Radio Shack SPL meter.. :-)

[Outpost75]

Purpose-built "Blooper Bunny Gun" by John Taylor. H&R small frame .44 single-shot action. Green Mountain "Gunsmith Special" 9mm barrel 20 inches long, with 1:10" twist (fast twist is IMPORTANT!). Chambered in .38 S&W with rook rifle-type throat (3 degrees Basic, or 6 degrees included angle from .363" major diameter ahead of case mouth chamfer from .388" case mouth diameter) to press tapered nose of Accurate 36-240H heavy, flatnosed 240-grain bullet to ENGRAVE in rifling as breech is closed.

With 3 grains AutoComp, chronographs 720 fps. VERY uniform velocity!

Penetrates through EIGHT 1-gallon water jugs, NO tumbling, straight through like a laser!

Inch groups with simple open sights at 25 yards.

Gun weighs only 4-1/2 pounds.

Mild report like .22 LR, so I don't use a can, but if you did it would be silent and deadly.

260435260436260437260438260439260440260441

It is also possible to build one in .455 MkII using the Starline brass and a 1:16" twist barrel to stabilize the Accurate 45-290H (295-grains in 1:40 tin-lead) bullet at 700 fps from a 20-inch barrel with 3.5 grains of Bullseye. A small powder capacity and heavy bullet relative to the caliber are advantages for these specialized loads.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

A pistol caliber carbine (16" bbl) with a heavy subsonic round is your best bet without a suppressor. And a 44 or 45 would be best at least for deer. Small game just use a subsonic .22 rf.

[barrabruce]

Outpost what do you mean?

rook rifle-type throat

Sounds like a nice setup.

Thnx

[Norske]

Does sitting in a rocking lawn chair in cover between there the deer want to bed and where they want to eat count as stealth? Hey bow hunters aren't fools, but I prefer a rifle.

[Outpost75]

Outpost what do you mean?

rook rifle-type throat

Sounds like a nice setup.

Thnx

.363" major diameter of forcing cone entrance ahead of case mouth chamfer from .388 case mouth diameter.

No cylindrical ball seat or freebore, but long taper forcing cone 3 degrees Basic (6 degree total included angle) which matches contour of Accurate 36-220H or 36-240H bullets so that its forepart is lightly engraved upon chambering.

Dave Manson produced the reamer which John Taylor has, is identified as .380 Rook Harris Rev. 11-17

If you want to PM me with an email address which will accept a .pdf file, which I am unable to attach here, I'll send you the reamer and headspace gage drawing.

[Outpost75]

A pistol caliber carbine (16" bbl) with a heavy subsonic round is your best bet without a suppressor. And a 44 or 45 would be best at least for deer. Small game just use a subsonic .22 rf.

Mine has a 20-inch barrel. .380 MkIIz 178-grain FMJ does not exit every time, but lubricated lead bullets do.

260867

[McFred]

This works decently in a Contender Carbine. It's a sub sonic 35-200 clone in a 357Sig, and at 1050fps has about as much muzzle engergy as a full pressure 125gr from a .357 Magnum pistol. It's not as quiet as .22 rimfire, but it's sure no .308Win.

https://i.postimg.cc/D0XP9Dsd/200-Sig-a.jpg

35 yards:
https://i.postimg.cc/C5S64S9n/Cast-Tgt.jpg

Short, light weight.
https://i.postimg.cc/tTHhGFbv/2070g-Carbine.jpg

[38Special]

THAT is cool..!

So what is the caliber of your Encore?

[Scrounge]

Ghillie suit...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=TAg-4tfuC-E&feature=emb_logo

[McFred]

THAT is cool..! So what is the caliber of your Encore?

Um, are you referring to my post? I don't think there's mention of an Encore in the entire thread. :veryconfu

[Alferd Packer]

A small reload kit for cat's sneeze loads for 30-06 consisting of:
Three cases fired, but unsized in your rifle, 100 lead balls already sized and aloxed, 100 primers, a leatherman tool, a decapping punch,a 1/4 lb. Bullseye, a .22 LR case with a soldered on handle, or a twisted wire handle to dip 3.0 grs, powder into fired case, new primer can be set on flat part of leatherman and case forced down onto fresh primer.
Actually only need one case, but couple extra can be kept loaded and ready and replacements if single case dropped and lost.
Also a dipper of bullseye can help to start a fire on humid day when tinder is stubborn.
Many states regulations forbid the carrying of a handgun while hunting with a rifle. Same with building a cooking fire.
It depends on your wants and needs.
All I need is the rifle I'm carrying
and a way to make a few cat's sneeze loads.
Trying to do it the way Townsend Whelan would have understood.
Of course you have your hunting ammo and shelter half and are dressed for the time of year.
My 2 cts
This all presupposes that you have spent the time it takes to reload these under controlled conditions and also know the aiming point using your hunting rifle to make accurate, small game killing hits before you try this on your big game hunting trip.
Same goes for building a fire and cooking your catch of the day.
Several rehearsals are called for so you can gain proficiency as a woodsman.
It all depends on your learning curve.
It's harder than it looks, but none of it is impossible if you want to learn.
Practice makes perfect. You should be gathering tinder and small twigs as you hunt and should be wearing a large cloth bag on a strap to stuff your fire starters and dry sticks for your evening fire long before you get to your campsite.
Also, small mouse nest of dry easy to start fluff and soft dried bark and maybe tree fungus.
You will learn what to collect and carry for later when you need it, but it's getting dark and not the time to be hunting for what you should already have.
Same goes for your skills at reloading your cat's sneeze and harvesting small game with the same loads.
Practice and patience.

[centershot]

C-r-o-s-s-b-o-w!

[murf205]

Ghillie suit...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=TAg-4tfuC-E&feature=emb_logo

+1 for the Ghille suit. It is truely the cloak of invisibility. I have had a small wren light on my arm and I had a flock of 11 hen turkeys feed 4 paces away from me for 5 min. Folks, that's 22 turkey eyes and if you don't make eye contact with a critter and the wind is right, it is the cat's meow for close in hunting. That's why I Laurer coated my SRH. If I need to get stealthy, I use the crossbow. McFreds rig looks promising and I have often given thought to a subsonic Encore or Contender in 44 spl or mag with a can on it for deer size game. We are not talking long range here, sometimes feet instead of yards. I use a folding directors chair(camo) and use boughs and branches from the surrounding brush to make a semi circle around me to further break up my outline and wear a face mask to cover my mug. Leafy gloves help too.

[Drm50]

I wouldn’t wear a Ghille suit if you paid me. You probably wouldn’t survive and the idiot that killed you wouldn’t even know it. Enough people get shot wearing blaze orange. A friends Dad was shot off his tractor and killed in Ohio deer season. Bad times will put more idiots in the woods. In the biggest part of the USA a 22 will kill anything you come across. One shot and nobody knows what direction it came from. Rather than sign up on a government list and spend big bucks on suppressors and such you would be better served to use the money to buy beef jerky. I think you would survive longer this way.

[Outpost75]

Some 25-yard open sight groups, 100 yard gong hits and pressure test data from Larry Gibson for a .455 rook rifle. Quiet like .22 LR standard velocity, full-length deer penetration on raking and Texas Heart Shots.

.455 Colt/Eley, 265grain lead ogival nose HB, fired from 20-inch Rook Rifle
Optimum trajectory for max bullet rise 3 inches, zero range 60 yds., max. point blank 72 yds.
Simple iron sights one inch above bore.

Yds_Drop(ins)_Vel.(fps)_Energy(ft.lbs.)
0___-0.9584___680____272
10___1.1536___675____268
20___2.5025___670____264
30___3.0769___665____260 Max. 3-inch bullet rise
40___2.8653___660____256
50___1.8561___655____252
60___0.0377___651____249
70__-2.6020___646____246
80__-6.0750___641____242
90_-10.3934___637____239
100_-15.5696__632____235 - 100 yd rifle impact approximates MkVI revolver near muzzle.

263701263703263704263702263705263706

[quilbilly]

My "rook rifle" has been for many years also a Contender Carbine but in 9mm Luger. While not quiet since it throw 135 gr boolits at above sonic speed, it is very easy on unprotected ears. I recently acquired a Ruger Mod77/357 bolt gun that I am working up loads for right around sonic velocity with a 190 gr WFPB boolit that should also be easy on the ears. The 9mm is "minute of pop can" with iron sights at 125 yards so is more than adequate for accuracy.