22 for self defense

[snoopy]

Trying to decide on a carry gun for my wife, her 6in 357 just wont work! Anyway, a guy at the LGS actually recomended a 22lr and it got me thinking. Now I realize its not an ideal manstopper, but if its light and she will carry it..... well thats a n advantage. However with the ammo situation being what it is, then maybe something reloadable makes more sense ie more practice. She does have small hands and is proficient with a revolver.Sorry if this has been kicked around before, Im sure it has, just wondering what you guys think. I'm planning on letting her get some range time with a 9mm auto, but the one I have is a 459 smith and the grips are, well, you know. I have to plan a purchase wisely due to finances, and if she takes to the semi auto, then there will be more choices and we may go and rent some different models. anyway thanks ahead of time.

[imashooter2]

.22LR is much more effective than harsh words. I would rather see a J frame with .38 wadcutters, but if'n .22 is what you've got. Carry it.

[historicfirearms]

One thing to watch with 22 revolvers is heavy hammer pull and resulting heavy trigger pull. They need a heavy main spring to reliably set off rimfire primers. My wife tried a S&W 22 revolver but with her small hands she had trouble cocking the hammer.

[dubber123]

The rimfire priming system is the least reliable one currently in widespread use. I have experienced many, many times more malfunctions with rimfires than center fires. If you really have no choice, it certainly beats nothing. If the gun of choice is available in any center fire caliber, I would recommend that first just based on dependability. A .38 revolver is usually available more inexpensively than some of the larger calibers, and can be handloaded to very low levels if need be, or pretty warmly if desired.

[osteodoc08]

If a revolver, get a 38 special J frame and some of the "lite" loads. They can even be had in pink tipped bullets.
If a semi auto, there are tons of small 380acp out there.
You can make the case for the 22, but have you seen any premium ammo lately?

[725]

J-frame or the like. .38 Spec. with a warm wadcutter. Doesn't have to be nuclear, but what she shoots well.

[prsman23]

Ruger lcr 38 special. Very light.

[contender1]

I've been teaching NRA Women On Target clinics for 14 years now. Lots of ladies have learned how to shoot & have come to enjoy shooting from us.
That said,,, let's touch on a few things.
First, if SD is the main reason, rule number one for a gunfight, have a gun. If a .22 R/F is all you have,, it's better than nothing.
Next, as it's been noted above, for ignition, a revolver in 22 is a bit harder to pull for many ladies, so a semi is usually the better option. HOWEVER,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
A semi-auto has MANY drawbacks for ladies.
It has more "controls" to make it work. (Slide, safety, magazine, magazine release,)
Until a person spends a lot of time using a semi, they do not develop the muscle memory skills to operate all these w/o thinking about it.
Next, pulling a slide back on some guns, can be harder on the ladies.
Loading a magazine with ammo can be harder on the ladies.
Under stress, (an attack or actual need for a gun) problems can be compounded. The normal reaction is for a woman to focus on the aggressor, NOT on what to do. If the gun is in the purse, in a pocket, winds up in her "off" hand etc,,, a semi can become a bigger problem than you think. If fired from inside a purse, pocket, it can jam.

These are a few things to consider.

Next, time for physics.

A lighter gun is easier to carry, yet has more recoil. A heavier gun has less recoil, yet is harder to carry.

Choices have to be made, and they have to be made by HER!!!!!!!!!!! Not anybody else.

We have found that by far, through the hundreds who have taken our clinics, that the most often chosen firearm, that fits the bill the best for most is the compact, steel framed DA revolver.
Of the choices, it's at the top of the list for the KISS method. (Keep It Simple Stupid)
A good quality 357 mag in a short barrel, with a set of grips to fit HER hands, loaded with light 38 spl ammo can easily be practiced with. Yet, for carry & SD, good 357 mag SD loads will be the ticket.

Now, all that said,,, you still have to find what she likes & then I strongly suggest you have her spend a lot of time practicing with it. And not just standing in a lane, punching paper with a normal 2 handed grip. Make her use one hand & then the other without any assistance from the other hand. (She'll find that clearing a jam with just her off hand will become an issue quickly.)
I would recommend an instructor who works a lot with women to do some of the teaching. She will learn a lot.

But, back to the OP about a 22. There is a lot of differences between a 6" 357 mag & a 22 R/F. You have to find a gun she likes & can operate EASILY!

Can a 22 be a SD firearm? Absolutely!!!! Is it the best choice? Not generally, but by far it's better than no firearm, and better than 25 acp or 32 acp, & even 380 in some cases.

[tazman]

There is an indoor shooting range I frequent that is run by a family. 3 members of this family are women. While at the range(also a gun shop), they all carry. Because of the situation they can have whatever gun they wish. One carries a revolver. The other 2 carry semi-autos in different calibers(380 and 9mm). 2 of them are NRA instructors. I would not want to be the one any of them were shooting at.
As others have said, the woman needs to make the choice as to what she wants to carry. What she is comfortable with and what she will become proficient with. If she is going to carry it she needs to be familiar with it.
Stress does interesting things to people. Man or woman, you need to have sufficient familiarity with the weapon that it can be used almost without thinking about it since during a stressful situation you will be reacting more than thinking. Proper training and practice are the keys.

[Low Budget Shooter]

One of .22LR's main advantages used to be low price, making for lots of practice. Nowadays, however, I can cast bullets and reload for .38 special considerably cheaper than I can buy .22!

[NavyVet1959]

I have been in areas where the only think I could conceal was a .22LR. It's better than nothing, but definitely not my first choice. I always considered it something that you empty your entire cylinder / mag into your assailant and then expedited your retreat with the hope that it slowed them down enough. A well placed .22LR round can definitely kill someone, but whether you end up making that "golden BB" shot during an emergency situation when you need it most is perhaps something that you should not want to stake your life upon.

Many women that I have met have problems pulling back the slide on a semi-auto of any respectable caliber. It's not so much the arm strength, but rather the grip strength. They just cannot hold onto the slide well enough. If I was going to go the .22 route, I would look at the RIA 17+1 .22 TCM 1911 handgun. It also comes with a 9mm barrel. I would not suggest the CZ-75D that I recently acquired since the slide is relatively compact and I suspect that many women would have a problem griping it to cycle the slide.

For my wife, I just give her a DA/SA and leave a round in the chamber.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

when i was a kid my friends Dad used a 22 Rifle to kill a 800 lbs cow. one shot point blank right in the head cow went down
like a ton of bricks. that same year i shot a raccoon out of a tree it took 9 shots out of my HR pistol. now i have shot and killed
a lot of things with one shot out of a 22 but for a carry gun no way would i pick a 22 pistol and trust it i would look at a SP101
or J frame

[snoopy]

Well, this aquisition will be purely for SD. All the comments so far have mirrored my thoughts exactly and the recoil issue with a small gun was the very reason the 22 was being considered. She walks a cross country trail on a regular basis so whatever is chosen has to be light in weight. Thanks again

[NavyVet1959]

Well, this aquisition will be purely for SD. All the comments so far have mirrored my thoughts exactly and the recoil issue with a small gun was the very reason the 22 was being considered. She walks a cross country trail on a regular basis so whatever is chosen has to be light in weight. Thanks again

There's a lot to be said for one of the 2" 7-shot .357 mag revolvers, especially if you reload for it. You can load it down low enough that it have the recoil of a .22 initially and slowly up the powder as they get used to it. Load it with 0.360" (000-buck) round balls at 69 gr for even cheaper practice.

[Gray Fox]

My wife commandeered my S&W 642 lightweight hammerless .38. I load some moderate loads with plated hollow base wadcutters with the hollow facing forward. Performance in gallon jugs of water in a row has been good. The speedloader or speed strip she carries has Remington 110 grain jacketed hollow points for ease of reloading.

The other aspect of whatever your wife carries is how fast can she get it into action. Attacks along hiking trails are usually pretty fast, so if she plans to carry the weapon in a fanny pack or such thing she will need lots of dry fire practice to see if it is even workable. Whatever carry mode she chooses will have to become ingrained to succeed under stress. Hope this helps, GF.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

look at there new 9mm 17.2 oz http://www.ruger.com/products/lcr/models.html

[nagantguy]

.22 over the .45 at home or a rock. Largest hog I ever seen seen taken was with one head shot from a .22, it was already mad and worked up, one round between the eye and ear dropped not like a stone. Shot placement and first round hits are all that matter is the point I'm making. Shot placement and first round hits are all that matter, everything else is an acidemic exercise.

[bangerjim]

Friend bought a 380 lite-weight (plastic) semi with built-in laser dot for his wife because she "did not want anything heavy", and it "felt right" at the LGS. Well, it is NOT heavy.........and it almost dislocates her wrists when she fires it! Weight is needed in small guns, any gun for that matter! If your wife is a big gal (doesn't sound like it), mabe it will work, but even I (at 183# and strong wrists) felt the thing was very awkward and almost painful to shoot.

I like my 38SPL snub nose revolver! The wife does too. She also has a S&W 22LR semi that we have never had a mis-fire at the range with, as some mention above. It pulls very easy and cycles like a dream. The mafia used 22's a lot! Excellent for up close and personal, but probably will just PO a big attacker at a distance.

I like 9mm, 38SPL, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP. All are "carry-able" and perform well. You need to take her to a gun store with an indoor range that allows you to try different guns they will loan out. My local ones will lend your the gun for free as long as you buy their ammo. And they have "lady's days"!

But I feel a revolver is a very nice gun. Of all the pistols my wife has tried, she likes revolvers the best.

"If ya can't get-er-done in 5 or 6 shots, ya might as well throw in the towel" :Fire:

banger

[tazman]

look at there new 9mm 17.2 oz http://www.ruger.com/products/lcr/models.html

One of the women I mentioned carries a Taurus snubby in 9mm. It uses moon clips. I know for a fact the gun shoots well enough at short range to be effective.
Being a revolver you could load it down if you wish.

[Mk42gunner]

I agree a 6" revolver will be hard to conceal, and more weight than many people (male and female) want to carry all day, every day.

I have seen too many misfires with .22LR to want to trust the life and wellbeing of my loved ones to the reliability of a rimfire. Plus by the time you get to a .22 that is easy to operate (and reliable), you have a gun that is almost as large as a 6" revolver.

If she is comfortable with a DA get her a smaller gun. You don't say what the .357 she has now is, but I am guessing either a K or L frame equivalent. Be advised that a smaller gun my need a smaller caliber to be somewhat comfortable to shoot.

My best advice is to take her to a range where she can try out various guns before you buy something that might or might not work for her.

I think a two or three inch J frame in .32 H&R would be a lot easier to shoot well than one in .38 or .357. Heck, I have no desire to fire full house .357's from a J Frame.

Let her decide what she is comfortable with, as long as it is reliable.

Robert

[Springfield]

I would carry one of my top break 38 S&W revolvers before I would carry anything in .22, especially an auto version. A .32 TB or a more modern .32 swing out would weigh even less.

[wlc]

What I did for my wife was to take her to the LGS and let her handle several different handguns. She can shoot the snot out of my Glock in 40, but can't rack the slide. She decided on a Ruger sp101. I took the stock grip panels off and replaced them with Hogue's. I've cast and loaded for it some 158gr RF out of a LEE mold and loaded them light for her to practice with. For defensive purposes I still load 38's, but give them more oomph. I can cast and load for 38 much less expensively than 22 goes for right now and the 38 has a lot more power than a 22.

I will say though that if a 22 is all you have I'd carry it. I promise I wouldn't want to be shot by one and don't figure anyone else would either, there are just much better options available. Just a thought

[texasbilly]

There is a fairly reliable story going around that a home owner surprised a burglar one winter night, and shot him with a 25acp (I know it is not a 22lr). The burglar was wearing a Navy pea coat at the time. The little 25 caliber bullet never penetrated the coat. What does that tell us about the value of a 25acp (and a 22lr) for self defense?

[NavyVet1959]

I would carry one of my top break 38 S&W revolvers before I would carry anything in .22, especially an auto version. A .32 TB or a more modern .32 swing out would weigh even less.

There's also the .327 magnum. From a brass availability standpoint though, I would probably stay with the .357 magnum instead.

[RogerDat]

Revolver loaded with .38 the heavier frame of a .357 might or might not be an advantage for the reasons given. Light gun equal more recoil.

Lot of quality models to choose from providing her with enough choice to allow her to find something that feels right. Lighter loads for practice with a few rounds of full power to keep her comfortable with the "feel" of a slightly harder hitting SD round. I do the same thing with a .357 practice with .38 loads but run a few full power .357 down the pipe before I finish.

Agree with those that said practice getting weapon onto target from carry location is really important, but the comfort and recoil might determine if a second shot is on target. My wife chose a lady Rossi out of all the revolvers at the LGS, it fits her hand so she likes it, more recoil than the Ruger 101 but she likes her choice better so she is happy, and happy wife practices.

[JSnover]

Aim for the face. If the wound is fatal the encounter is over. If not, hopefully his bell has been rung, giving your wife a chance to run or fire again.

[bruce drake]

I'm going to echo what a lot of folks here have already said. A good 38 or 357 revolver with a 2" or 3" barrel would be just perfect for her to carry while she's walking those trails.

I bought a Taurus Model 65 357 Magnum with a 4" barrel for my wife two years ago when my Army job at the time put me on the road 2 weeks out of every month. My dear wife can shoot my 1911s and my FEG Hi-Power with pretty good accuracy but she has issues with all three pistols' slides. The revolver was straight-forward with fixed sights and she quickly learned how to operate it in both single-action as well as in double-action mode. She got very good and is confident with that pistol at point blank out to 10yards which is probably the farthest she'd probably have to fire the pistol at an assailant or wild animal on a trail. Last year, SHE asked if she could purchase a 38 with a smaller barrel so she could place it in her purse when she started working in downtown Indianapolis. She made an informed review of the pistols that the local gunshop offered in new and used as well as what they could order in. SHE (again my emphasis) decided to purchase another Taurus. SHE chose a Taurus 617SS2 Revolver which is a 7-shot 357Mag Stainless Steel pistol with fixed sights on a 2" barrel because the controls and grips where the same as what she learned on with the Model 65. She is very confident with both pistols now and the 617 is her preferred CCW pistol as well. I load the 617 with 38 Special brass and a 150gr SWC over 5gr of Unique putting that hunk out at 800fps. Recoil is mild in both pistols and it hits where she aims with the fixed sights.

So the Model 65 is now a range and smallgame pistol for us and I have plans to develop a good 180gr short-range deer load when I get some more time to dedicate to it.

I went back to the Taurus website to make sure I had the model number correct and not only does Taurus offer a 9mm revolver but also a 380 ACP revolver as well!

The most important piece out of this message that I will give you is let her decide and test fire the pistol before you buy one. I bought the Taurus 65 to give her a pistol that soaked up standard 38 Special load recoils to help prevent any flinches/jerks that might develop in a new shooter and then let her decide on her next pistol based off her experience with the first one. I'm sure you'll see the same with your wife as well as long as you do your homework first.

Bruce

[Combat Diver]

If she and you decide on a small frame 5 shooter my I suggest a set of CT laser grips. With the harder DA trigger pull, less ammo available she'll have better luck getting on target and making those shots count. Sounds like she is comfortable with her larger DA revolver so makes sense to keep with the same type of weapon. I usually carry a Smith 442 Pro Airweight in my front pocket and run with it in a belly band. Don't forget that the .327 Fed guns can also shoot .32 H&R mag, .32 S&W Long, .32 S&W and .32 ACP. Another suggestion would be a Beretta Tomcat in .32 ACP which is just a tad larger then its twin brothers in .22LR/.25 ACP (Bobcat), it also has the tip up barrel so she won't have to rack a slide.


CD

[slumlord44]

I am surprised that no one has mentioned the .22 Magnum. With some of the new ammo designed for self defense I would prefer it over the .22 Long Rifle. Not as good as a .38 Special but better than the .22 long rifle. I am in Illinois and have not gotten my permit to carry yet but my first choice is a Smith & Wesson Model 10 .38 Special revolver.

[NavyVet1959]

I am surprised that no one has mentioned the .22 Magnum. With some of the new ammo designed for self defense I would prefer it over the .22 Long Rifle. Not as good as a .38 Special but better than the .22 long rifle. I am in Illinois and have not gotten my permit to carry yet but my first choice is a Smith & Wesson Model 10 .38 Special revolver.

This being a reloading forum, perhaps we might be a bit partial to calibers than we can reload? :)

[Daddyfixit]

My sons wife wanted a .22 auto but I talked her out of it because of the FTF problem. Some will argue all day on the .22 vs. center fire. I for one would not want to be shot with a .22! And then the stories of empting a .44 mag not being enough! Egad!
But there is no way I would want her to trust that a .22 won't misfire. As to pistol vs. revolver there's a lot less to think about with a revolver under stress...so my vote is for a .38 stubby!

[snoopy]

Again, thanks everyone for all the advice, definitely some points brought up that I hadn't considered. Pretty well sums up my original thinking, 357 stubby/w light reloads for practice, pretty hard combo to beat IMHO. Its nice to get a different view from the other side so to speak. Gonna try and do some shopping this weekend.

[Chev. William]

There is a fairly reliable story going around that a home owner surprised a burglar one winter night, and shot him with a 25acp (I know it is not a 22lr). The burglar was wearing a Navy pea coat at the time. The little 25 caliber bullet never penetrated the coat. What does that tell us about the value of a 25acp (and a 22lr) for self defense?

a Two inch barrel is TOO SHORT to develop velocity and Energy for a small caliber Self Defense Firearm is what I get from that story. Yes, i know longer barrels are ahrder to use in Concealed Carry but it is still true.
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

No personal experienc enor testing but I believe a .32 Colt Long or .32 S&W Long out of a Four Inch Barrel into a Knee Cap would slow an attacker considerably, at least long enough to place one in the Forehead between the eyes if the attacker is still approaching.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Multigunner]

A .22 you can hit with is better than a cannon you can't hit with.
The .22 has no stopping power to speak of but according to an article written by a surgeon you are seven times more likely to die from a .22 bullet than from a .38 bullet if both hit the same place.
Thats partly due to staff infections from debris caught in the lube and carried into the wound and the wandering small diameter bullet track. Another major factor is internal bleeding especially if the cardial sheath is penetrated. That sheath will close up behind a .22 hole and blood leaking from vessels will build up and crush the heart muscle. A larger bullet hole lets blood leak out allowing the heart to continue beating.

The .22 generally penetrates bone very well, at least if the barrel length is sufficient to allow a reasonable velocity. The skull is easily penetrated by a .22 with the same problem of blood not leaking out and builing up to crush brain tissue. A .22 to the cranium is like a super stroke.
This is why the old time hitmen liked to use an ice pick, and in modern times the IRA call it presenting the victim with the OBE (one behind the ear).
If theres enough of a hole to let the blood out the victim might survive with minimum brain damage.

[NoZombies]

As has been said, better a hit with a .22 than a miss with something else.

That said, after many go-rounds with my wife and her shooting almost everything under the sun, she settled on a .32 revolver. It's about the same size as the .22, practice ammo can be downloaded to recoil like the .22, and she practices enough to be deadly accurate. Full power ammo has hollow points that open nicely at the 1000 FPS they're traveling at.

[PAT303]

I shoot on weekends with a couple of very capable Lady shooters that would put half a dozen 22's into your chest before you new what was happening,there's no way I would go face to face with them. Pat

[leftiye]

Not good to be shot with any gun. Right?

Not good though to be killed by a "dead" bear that's still figuring it out after being shot with the wrong gun or in the wrong place.

If it's all you have to shoot, might as well. Worst that will happen is piffing off your killer who was going to kill you anyway.

That being said one should plan better.

[Bonz]

one gunstore local to me is selling quite a few Ruger LCR 22 WMR for women to carry

[Garyshome]

Something is better then nothing! Even if is a 22, the attacker doesn't know it's a 22.

[Love Life]

I'd rather have a fistful of 22 LR than a sharp stick.

Holes kill stuff. Get on the trigger and stay on the trigger until the threat is no longer a threat or you are dead.

Simple stuff.

We can go all day on how one is better than the other (which is true that one is better than the other) but if she picks a 22lr for self defense then practice is the name of the game.

Most people will tend to knock off their shenanigans when you shoot them. True story.

[Tom_in_AZ]

.22LR is much more effective than harsh words. I would rather see a J frame with .38 wadcutters, but if'n .22 is what you've got. Carry it.

Exactly. There are much better options, but it sure beats nothing.

[imashooter2]

-snip-

Most people will tend to knock off their shenanigans when you shoot them. True story.

True story. :)

[Charlie U.]

......357 stubby/w light reloads for practice, pretty hard combo to beat IMHO. Its nice to get a different view from the other side so to speak. Gonna try and do some shopping this weekend.

Have fun shopping.
Agreed, a soft/light wadcutter load out of a 38special or .357mag is gonna be SOOO much more effective than any 22 rimfire. And with the current cost of rimfire ammo it is more cost effective too. There really isn't any reason to use the 22lr or 22mag for SD (unless you want one of the NAA super tiny guns as a bug).

I suppose there are elderly shooters or those with physical limitations who simply cannot handle anything more than a 22. For them a 22 is obviously better than nothing, but any able bodied shooter can do better.