Question about older Lyman dies

[Vly]

I recently acquired a new-to-me 45-70 rifle ( Marlin 1895 ) and fortunately my Dad remembered he had a set of dies squirreled away. ( the man never reloaded a single round in his life ) The die set below has been unused in a drawer for at least 40 years. I promised him I would put them to good use. :)



http://www.fototime.com/9D7EF4967A1C2B0/standard.jpg


Yup, they are almost new, but no adjustment instructions. Now I have about 30 die sets on the shelf, so I thought I knew how to adjust dies. Adjusted to how I thought they should be resulted in the case getting stuck fairly tightly in the die. ( yes, I did lube the case ) Through trial and error I found I had to screw the decapping pin assembly down to the point it protruded out the bottom of the die. See the die in the second photo.

Does anyone remember these dies or can shed some light on if this is how the die was designed? It looks strange, but seems to work OK. I am curious about this. Thanks

http://www.fototime.com/961E666C94EF2D5/standard.jpg

[Nueces]

That appears to be an older 2-die set for the more-or-less-straight-case 45-70. The neck expander function is incorporated into the decap assembly, so adjustment is critical. Later, everybody went to the 3-die set for straight wall cases, with a separate expander die. If I knew you well enough to make a recommendation ( :-D ), I'd say go get a modern 3-die set, or, at least get a Lyman M-die expander and a new decapper stem that did not contact the case neck.

The boxed set probably has some value to a collector, anyway. However, it's neat to have your Dad's old tools.

Mark

[Scrounger]

How far the decapping pin protrudes from the bottom of the die is dependent upon (or is a function of.... haven't used that phrase in forever and it's come up twice today) how far the die is screwed into the press. Looks to me like you could back the lock ring farther up the die and then back the decapping stem up to a more normal looking position. As far as I know, dies basically haven't changed in many, many, years. Return to zero, pretend those dies are a brand new set from RCBS, and adjust them to their instructions if you have them. You can probably get instructions from their web page. You're looking for complications where there are none. Oh, Hell, just yesterday I said I wasn't going to do this anymore. Might as well finish this gig.
1. Back lock rings as far up on sizing die as possible.
2. Install shellholder into press ram and raise to full up position.
3. Turn Sizer die into threaded hole on top of press until it contacts shellholder firmly.
4. Turn lock ring down until it contacts press and tighten set screw.
5. Turn decapping stem down until the decapping pin protrudes about 1/4" through bottom of die.

That should be all there is to it.
If you need help setting other two dies, just post.

[Vly]

Scrounger - Thank you for participating in this discussion. I am familiar with the 5 step method of adjusting dies that you posted. If I use that method with this die and a lubed case the case will not fully enter the die. That is why I posted, perhaps I did not make that clear.

The case will fully enter the die with the entire decapping stem removed. The decapping stem will enter the case far enough to decap the primer IF I extend the decapper down like in the photo. If I adjust the die like you suggest and the way we all do, the case jams in the die and a bright ring forms about 1/3 from the bottom of the case. That is the issue I am talking about.

It appears the case is being "pinched" between the mouth of the die and the decapping assembly when adjusted in the traditional way.

[floodgate]

Vly:

That's exactly what happens; and that is why the tool makers went to the 3-die sets for straight cases. You can probably make it work by doing the F/L sizing and the decapping/expanding as separate steps, re-adjusting the die in between, as it appears you have already figured out.

That set was made for and is contemporary with the Lyman All-American "Turret" and "Comet" bench presses from the late '50s and early '60s - their first presses to use the standard-size 7/8" x 14 tpi dies, but still employing their proprietary "J" shellholders and "T" priming punches (in the smaller boxes in the center of the set).

You may well want to hang onto this set as a memento; but if you are willing to part with it, I'll be happy to get you a modern 3-die set plus shellholder of your choice to replace it, and maybe even a few $$ "boot". (I am doing a study of the evolution of the Lyman line of bench presses, and this die set would fit in nicely, demonstrating as it does one of the many "false steps" Lyman made enroute to their present reloading tool line.) PM me if you wish to follow up.

floodgate

[Scrounger]

From your analysis, it appears the die is not the right one for the .45-70. Factories have made errors before. Does it say ".45-70" on the die itself? Sounds like it would work better with a .45 Colt case. I think somebody goofed on the dies.

[floodgate]

Vly, Scrounger:

Thinking it over while I was feeding the sheep and gathering the eggs this evening, it dawned on me that these dies were probably made up to fit the older "balloon head" cases that were just being phased out around then for the older calibers. These had much thinner walls toward the base than the "modern" ones, so the ID also increased towards the base, and with these, the die would not jam and stick.

floodgate

[Vly]

Floodgate - Thank you for your explanation on the history of these dies.. That makes perfect sense on why they don't work exactly like we are accustomed with more modern dies.

To be clear, both dies are clearly marked as 45-70.

A PM wil be on its way to Floodgate shortly.

[Pepe Ray]

Lyman wasn't the only one.
"In the beginning", other companies used the same design for their straight wall cases. I first saw them on the dusty old shelves of the distributor that I worked for. They had been "Xed" or taken off inventory, but were still taking up space.
AIR, both Pacific and C-H had sets like that. At the time they baffled me and on questioning the manager, he admitted he didn't know why they were so unpopular. I had heard of the balloon head cases but had never seen one so I never put 2+2. Well that was many years ago. "Nuff said.
Pepe Ray