Still looking for the right peep sight for my Win 94 38-55

[kenn]

Here's basically what it boils down to:

The rifle has a Lyman tang sight. I like it (a lot) but it is not indexed so you have to pick a single distance to zero to. I want to shoot 100 yard paper target and 250 yard metal "gong" targets. I want a sight I can go back and forth to (indexed by click or vernier) so that I can go back to that setting. I *may* try a little farther out but doubt I'd ever attempt beyond 400.

The Williams FP has some adjustment, but is it enough to cover that much range? Pros: It mounts to the receiver and is very, very reasonable from a price standpoint. Cons: I don't like to have the webbing of my hand around the tang.

The other option is a Montana Vintage Soule in the shorter version so that it will fold flat. Pros - exceptional sight with micro fine adjustments. "Period" look, to me, doesn't foul the look and feel of a levergun. Cons: hand has to work around it and it's EXPENSIVE.

As I understand it, I need to just look at a table for 38-55 ballistics and calculate bullet drop over the range I want to shoot in MOA. The maximum number of clicks = maximum number of MOA adjustment. So... looking at those two sights if they have, say, 100 clicks and each click is 1/4 MOA, on a 100 yard target, I've got 25" of movement maximum. On a 400 yard target, I've got 100" of movement maximum. Is this correct? If so, it tells me what I need in terms of total adjustment capacity and what will work...

Thanks!

[pietro]

.

I would suggest that you set the rifle up with dual zeroes via the simple expedient of installing a folding rear barrel open sight (like a Lyman #16, or Marble's #95).

The bbl sights can be zeroed @ 100yds, and the tang sight @ 250yds.

It's a simple matter to fold/raise one sight or the other for the two ranges.


.

[fecmech]

The Willams FP has a optional long elevation knob. I could easily go to 200 yds with .38 spl loads in my 94AE and back again. http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/sight-scope-installation-tools/replacement-sight-screws/foolproof-target-knobs-prod27362.aspx

[W.R.Buchanan]

A Lyman 66A would be the right choice here. They are precise enough to have a "Mechanical Zero " set and then all you do is move the sight up with the elevation knob to the next setting which you would have recorded.

You an also slip the elevation slide up by pushing in on the button on the base block and moving the elevation slide up using the MOA Scale on the sight. When done you run the sight back down the same way,,, but since you would have already set the stop screw so you go right back to the original Mechanical Zero for the rifle and load you are using.

Simliar Redfield sights exist but they don't have the quick Release function so you have to screw the sight up and down with the elevation screw. For your uses this will be of little consequence.

Just make sure you are buying a Vintage Lyman Steel Sight, instead one of the current Aluminum models they currently sell. All the Redfields out there are vintage and made of steel since they haven't produced Receiver sights for along time.

Both of these styles of sights would do what you want well, and both are available on EBAY frequently for <$100.

Good luck.

Randy

[marvelshooter]

For a tang sight I would recommend a Marbles improved. You buy the base and upright separately. The bases have windage adjustment and you have to pick the upright from 3 or 4 choices of height. The uprights bottom out down and have clicks that you can count as you raise it.

[fouronesix]

If your 94's receiver is already D&T'd, I'd do as W.R.B. suggests and look for a vintage Lyman or Redfield with the micrometer click adjustments- or at least the detent clicks. Those older sights in decent shape are plenty repeatable for the type shooting you're doing.

Pre-calculating MOAs for a particular rifle and with whatever ammo you're shooting will at best be a guesstimate and will likely get you, at least, "on paper". The settings (clicks) will need to be verified at the ranges shot. Spend some time at the range and record those settings (clicks). Then it's a simple matter of setting/changing the sight for the range shot.

[fecmech]

If your 94's receiver is already D&T'd, I'd do as W.R.B. suggests and look for a vintage Lyman or Redfield with the micrometer click adjustments- or at least the detent clicks. Those older sights in decent shape are plenty repeatable for the type shooting you're doing.
The 94 AE is not D&T'd for those sights. They use the rear scope mount holes in the top of the receiver and Williams makes a sight specific for that gun.

[kenn]

My 94 has been drilled and tapped at the tang. There is only one factory screw in that goes through the tang, into the buttstock, and then into the frame below. The front hole must be drilled and tapped for the later model tang. I will have to have my smith figure out what to do to fill the drilled/tapped hole to make it "pretty" since this is a pewter receiver.

I've attached a picture below. I believe the red circle shows the scope mount screws. Is that correct? This is a factory hole as the rifle comes that way from Winchester. The arrow points where the front tang sight screw is mounted.

[fouronesix]

My 94 has been drilled and tapped at the tang. There is only one factory screw in that goes through the tang, into the buttstock, and then into the frame below. The front hole must be drilled and tapped for the later model tang. I will have to have my smith figure out what to do to fill the drilled/tapped hole to make it "pretty" since this is a pewter receiver.

I've attached a picture below. I believe the red circle shows the scope mount screws. Is that correct? This is a factory hole as the rifle comes that way from Winchester. The arrow points where the front tang sight screw is mounted.

Those I believe are the D&T'd holes for mounting a receiver sight. The extra D&T'd hole in the tang is for mounting a tang sight. All you have to do is insert a plug screw. It would have come from the factory with a plug screw, unless special ordered with a tang sight installed.

[kenn]

The tang was put on by previous owner when he bought it in '79. He fired exactly 8 rounds through it to zero it and it sat in his safe until he passed away. His complete collection was sold as an auction and I bought this rifle from a guy that bought a "lot" of guns from the original owner. I only got the rifle. I don't have the original buckhorn or plug or anything of the like. There is currently a lyman tang installed but it isn't the "click" type. It's a "set it once" kind of thing.

[fecmech]

My bad! For some reason I thought you had an angle eject 94, after rereading the post I don't know where the heck I got that from. Sorry for getting this off track.

[starmac]

I lucked out and picked up an old steel redfield last weekend at the gunshow. I don't shoot long distance, so no worrys as it working for me. It will be swapped with the williams on my pre 64.

[Canuck Bob]

One option that I'm considering for a 94 is carrying a separate peep slide rather than keep changing the settings. It would be a bit pricey but the Lyman would work well with the quick change feature. It allows completely different loads with separate windage POA. This is to be able to use a cast bullet setting for closer range and a high power setting for longer hunting range or gongs in your case.

[williamwaco]

I have the Marbles Tang. It has click adjustments. I really like it.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Canuck Bob: the whole reason for the Lyman Style Receiver sight is so that You don't have to have multiple slide assemblies. You can do it all with one sight and a piece of paper.

You sight your gun in with the flattest shooting load you are going to use in that gun. Like a Factory Load. This will become your "Mechanical Zero." Best to do it in calm conditions.

You then set the stop screw on the slide (the small set screw) down against the base of the sight.

You then loosen the Elevation Knob set screw and set that to 0, and retighten the screw.

Then you reset the scale on the Elevation Slide to zero. Now your "Mechanical Zero" for elevation is set.

Next you set the windage zero and then reset the movable scale on it to zero and also set the knob at zero.

Now your gun is sighted in at your base zero range with your Fastest Load,,, whatever you have chosen.100, 200, etc. For a Levergun 100 is the best place to start. Also your windage is set to zero and if you need to make a change to cope with big wind you have a place to return to for shooting with no wind.

Now if you have a drop chart for your bullet/velocity you can dial in the MOA based on the drop at a given yardage.

1 MOA= 1" at 100 yards and 2" at 200 yards and so on.

All of this is for your fastest load. Any other loads you shoot will have a higher trajectory and require you to dial in how ever many MOA for a given distance you are shooting as required by that load,,,, BUT!!! all of those offsets will be increases in elevation. So your "Mechanical Zero will still be the lowest position your rear sight ever uses. All other loads go up from there.

You then will shoot your slower loads at the various distances you decide to shoot at and note the elevation differences and record the offsets for each distance and each load so that you may go back to them when you are shooting that load again.

This all sounds very complicated but it is NOT. It is simply a systematic step by step approach to documenting your rifles performance. You have to have a place to start, and your Mechanical Zero is that place. Once this is done correctly it is no problem to create other offsets for other loads and distances, and it is no problem to go back to the starting point.

What is complicated,,, and a complete waste of time and ammunition ,,, is chasing the sights when you don't know for sure what the bullets are doing. I have done this and so have many others here, I assure you it is a complete waste of time and money. [smilie=b:

The Lyman Receiver Sight is the easiest and most repeatable Iron Sight to use for this purpose on an older gun like a Lever Gun or Bolt Action Rifle. Scopes work the same way.:mrgreen:

Pause,,,:coffee:

The step by step procedure I laid out above will get you straitened out so that you can actually make accurate and meaningful corrections to your sights for the conditions you are encountering and then return your gun to a base or Mechanical Zero at the end of the day so you are always starting from a known point.

Interestingly enough, the steps on those Open Sight Elevators on most of the guns we grew up with actually coincide with different ranges that the gun might be used with a normal factory load for that gun. It is said that the "Sights are Regulated" to that load. And you'll notice that pretty much all Military Firearms are Regulated to a Specific Ammunition, and thus the sights can be predictably adjusted for different ranges using the scales on the sights.

When you change the velocity of the load all this goes out the window and you must recalculate. But if you have a good Mechanical Zero you just add offsets to your documentation, and always have a known place to start with a commonly available ammunition type. It is like a Baseline for all other shooitng.

The flight of a given type of bullet is going to be virtually identical from bullet to bullet and if you know the Ballistic Coefficient, and the Muzzle Velocity, you can predict the trajectory of that bullet over different ranges with alarming accuracy. I have done this and know it to be possible for anyone to do because I am not an Einstein. I just figured this out a few years ago.

There are three ways to compute a bullets trajectory. Computer Program, Drop Table, or Range Results (IE: shooting the gun at different distances.) You kind of need two of the above and Range Results needs to be one of them. IE: you need to see if your calculations are right. If you only have Range Results you at least know what you're doing is right. Shooting the gun is the final answer.

It really isn't that hard, it's more about organizing your documentation so that you can do what you did last time,,, Next time.

Unless you only have one or two loads you shoot in a particular gun you have to write all this stuff down, and Sinclair or Brownell's have nice little books for this very thing.

All of this originally comes from the Military, and is used by Target Shooters who do this stuff religiously. Our current crop of Military Snipers are taught all of this same stuff as a part of the job and have refined it to a science. If you watch, they write down the results for every practice shot made and that is called "DOPE." Data Obtained from Previous Experience They can actually use this to figure out what is needed for a shot in the future that they have never done before. They are also very good at it..

It matters not if you are using Iron Sights or Optical Sights the discipline is the same.

This all comes under the heading of "Regulating your Sights." It is also what the line "a Well Regulated Militia," means in the 2nd Amendment. Sighted In and Well Practiced.

All guns are regulated,,, whether you know it or not. (and I don't mean by politicians) Better to understand this than be the victim of it. All of this stuff was figured out a long time ago, and sources for detailed information on subject are readily available. WWI was the proving ground for most of it. WWII confirmed what they learned 25 years earlier, and our latest conflict took the military rifleman to new distances never thought possible before.

WE are not done, but most of us have a lot of catching up to do.

Hope some of this helps further your understanding, and I assure you that applying some of the things I talked about will greatly enhance your shooting and your enjoyment of the sport. In fact learning more about anything you do will increase your understanding and affinity of that thing. It is a Mechanical Fact!

Randy

[kenn]

Thanks, Randy. That's an incredible post. Sticky-worthy even.

[Canuck Bob]

W R, I appreciate your hard work and fine motivation above. However I have more experience and training than you give me credit for. The above is similar to what I practiced for years on my receiver sighted rifles. My exclusive choice for many decades until I recently added my first bolt with a scope in 40 years. In my experience any field regulating that involves booklets, calculations, or memory are prone to error in many stressful circumstances. Also making adjustments based on counting clicks on any device is also prone to errors and less than repeatable tolerance stacking. Replacing the slide seemed like a good idea. This works dandy on a range but not so much on a cutline in the rockies.

The spring loaded disrupted thread system of the Lyman makes this possible. The major negatives are the need to carry the darn sight and possibly losing it. I have considered many options that involve folding sights that are always available on the rifle. I carry a ready equipped possibles bag when woods walking like my flint possibles bag. Handiest invention from our earliest north American sportsman and soldiers. I have one my great uncle traded for from a cree beading artist and left many years ago while visiting the homestead.

My motivation for trying this was an unmounted Lyman steel 66 and a Win 94 in 32 Special with the same sight. I found making constant changes tedious and required a range for constant checking of POI. With a pending change to mid range cast bullets made the adjustments even larger. In early test I can change out the slide rapidly by easing it close to the set screw then quickly easing it down with the adjustor. There is no windage adjustment required and the set screw is quite repeatable. It arose because I was doing a lot of plinking in the rockies with reduced loads and carried full power cartridges in the tube for possible quick need in grizzly country. At first I trained myself to use "kentucky windage" and estimate my POI from the plinking loads POA. In my needs the slowest load had to be the base load sighted. It worked fine at a few paces but I prefer a properly sighted rifle, regulated as you say. I use regulated to mean a tuning of a rifle as in regulating a double rifles barrels with sighting in included. The old armourers in the service talked a lot about regulating Lee Enfields. We also regulated our 105 howitzers, talking about manuals, fire calculators, dials, bubbles, and gadgets. My shooting heritage is uniquely Canadian so no 2nd Amendment issues for me. My generation was British influenced reaching back quite a ways and two world wars and Korea where my family served. My militia heritage of citizen soldiers ready for call is respected by me and is the reason we share the longest undefended border in the world since the War of 1812. I own a well maintained and stocked civil defence rifle that I'm current with. It is a Lee Enfield No.5 as issued with a long barrel 32-20 as an alternate. The more I carry it the little 32 Special is gaining real favour, maybe an Alberta assault rifle.

I suggest my method is not based in an error in understanding, training, or historical perspective. It is a method I am experimenting with and shared it as it is not normally discussed. It utilizes the design feature of the 66. In my Win 92 32-20 take down I have even considered dual barrel dovetails so folding barrel sights could be utilized. I consider buckhorn's useless and too close to the eye for me. Preferring the forward mounted flat "v" common on African express rifles. The Lyman was bought for this rifle but I decided one barrel sight rifle was in order and am considering it for a new to me 9422.

Flipping up a leaf for one load and another for a second load remains very appealing. Vision limits scrubbed the plan more than operational concerns. This started by considering the early Winchester leaf sights then I realized their natural limit was lack of separate windage adjustments. I did stumble onto some vintage writing that noted that continental african hunters often had their double and drillings so equipped. The big bores were regulated for the dangerous game load POI and a separate leaf was used to allow accurate soft skinned game POI. In fact folding permanent sights intrigue me like the early Beech Combination front sight. The fine pin regulated for the plinking load and the heavier blade set for the power load with a file. I'm trying to figure out a dual folding front sight for my jungle carbine.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Bob: No disrespect intended, and really only the first paragraph was directed at you in case you didn't know about the sights, which you obviously do.. The rest was general information directed at the masses.

So many people do not the understand the Lyman Sight and how it is designed to function and that was my primary goal to clarify with my dissertation. Since I learned about these sights several years ago my enjoyment of rifle shooting has increased dramatically, and the vast majority of my rifle shooting is done with Receiver Sights on Springfield, Marlin and lately an Enfield Rifle.

I feel, and I think you would share this thought, that a true rifleman should be able to hit the mark using iron sights, and proficiency with Iron Sights is also necessary to shoot well with optical sights. This is what I am going for and my dissemination of the knowledge is just part of it.

When I go to a public range here in CA or to a Silhouette Match or Military Rifle shoot I am constantly amazed by how few people actually have sighted their guns in before the match. They think they can go pop off a few rounds of whatever ammunition during the warm up and be on target at 500 meters or 600 yards. Generally they spend the day wasting ammo and making meaningless sight changes thinking they know where the gun is shooting. The fact that they are actually making these sight changes while shooting Off Hand is downright laughable. Whereas this is possible in some circles, it is not in the ones where I shoot. Blind luck and Divine providence rule those games.

I think we are on the same page here and the betterment of the sport is the primary goal we both seek.

Randy

[Geezer in NH]

Thanks again Randy!