Lee 124TC and 2R TL leading

[Scaramanga]

hello from germany
(and sorry for my bad english)

i´ve cast some lee 124gr TC TL and 2R TL boolits for my cz75
WW-lead LLA

edit: bullet 2R drops .358 sized to .357

slugged the barrel -> .356,5
max OAL TC 1.040 2R 1.100 slightly longer they will touch the rifling
i have only accurate aa#5

accurate loading data: 124gr laser cast bullet OAL 1.095 5,2gr max. 6gr

unfortunately i didn´t konw the length of this laser cast bullet
on pictures the laser cast looks shorter than the lee 2R
the lee 2R is 0.6

so i start at 5grain
after 10 shots at 5gr is got leading
form the center up to the muzzle
"grouping" 6" at 27yards :-(

5,2 grain 10 more rounds later
the leading begins right at the chamber
"grouping" 7,5" :cry:

stop testing
and clean the barrel
wow the brush gets the barrel hotter than the shots before

any tips?
am i right more powder means more leading?
do i need more LLA on the bullets?

[454PB]

You say the barrel slugs .3565", but you don't say what your cast boolits measure. I have the best results in my 9mm's using boolits .002" larger that measured bore diameter.

[Scaramanga]

bullet 2R drops .358 sized to .357

[mroliver77]

I would try going closer to max. Also try some at less than your starting charge. I would see if unsized will feed and function your gun. Try to adjust your alox. Boolits should end up a "gold" color and not dark brown.
Ohh, and ...Welcome to our little group :) Keep us posted and mebbe we can help you shake this out.
Jay

[Scaramanga]

thank you mroliver77
do you mean more to OAL max or power max?
.005 more and the bullet touches the rifling

the bullets got a lightly yellow shine
in the grooves light brown but not all grooves full covert

add 20 drops of LLA at 100 bullets

[59stude]

Try to use the biggest boolit the gun will camber.
I had an CZ75 that used .358 sized boolits and used anything from 4.5 to 5.5 grains of Vithuavouri 340 with good results.


59stude

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Welcome!

You posted that the lead is from the center of the barrel on forward to the muzzle correct?

Often the location of the leading tells you something about what is causing it. Somewhere somebody compiled a list of symptoms and possible causes. Maybe a board member can post a link.

Typically I see leadding occur closer to the chamber that usually means a weak powder charge/lead that's too hard or undersized bullet.

Leadding closer towards the muzzle means too much velocity/rough bore/insufficient lube/lead too soft. At least that what I seem to recall.

You could back down the powder charge some. Try a slower powder. Harden the lead by dropping from the mold into cold water. Or do something different with the lube.

Do you size after lubing? Try lubing, sizing, then re-lubing again. I've found that my best performance with Lee TL bullets is to apply enough coats of lube until the grooves are filled. In other words when I hold the bullet against a light background the sides no longer appear corrugated because the grooves are full of lube.

[mroliver77]

What I meant was more powder. I would try charges from the bottom of chart to near top. First thing I would try is to use as cast boolits IE; no sizing. If they chamber and fire but still lead I would play with lube. If still no good then mess with alloy hardness and or power.
Also did you make sure there is no copper fouling in barrel? This can make a big diference.
J

[Scaramanga]

in germany you coud not buy powder so easily.
you nead a licence and even with it only in small amounts.
so no other powder till aa#5 is gone.

bullets was sized at .357 and relubed with LLA

netx try
-more LLA
-no sizing
-start at 4.8 grain (i hope this min load will not blow the gun apart -> SEE)

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I wouldn't worry about SEE with that load in a 9mm. A .38spl with the same 125 gr. bullet has a starting charge of only 6.1 grains of AA #5. I'll bet there is more air space in that .38spl case than there will be in your 9mm case with 4.8 grains.

I'm a firm believer in examining recovered bullets if it's at all possible. If you have enough snow you can recover bullets fired into a snowbank and the bullets won't have any damage other than what occurred inside the barrel.

With the recovered bullet you can look for evidence of gas blowby, stripped rifling, or whatever.

Sometimes the rifling's land-groove widths are not uniform. So if the bullet engraves on the rifling and then the land narrows farther down the bore this will allow gas to leak past and erode lead. Other times the acceleration and rifling spin puts too much torque on the lead and will strip.

[Scaramanga]

hi
i double lube the bullets
it doesn´t solve the leading problem but the grouping gets a little bit smaler

50 rounds fired
40 in 4,5" at 27yards
10 [smilie=1:

[lv2tinker]

I too am just learning to cast for my CZ's (SP-01, Combat 85 and a Tanfoglio, all 9mm). I have found the 9mm to be somewhat difficult to cast for successfully "without" some leading. I also cast for .40 S&W, no leading.
When you cast your boolits, do you air-cool or water drop them? The BNH hardness of these TL boolits will make a difference in leading. See the test I did on casting temp and water dropping cast boolits. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=25750
I have tried Lee TL boolits at several different hardness, BHN-16 (leaded bad, 10 rounds) up to BNH 21 (Very-Very light leading after 100 rounds). Have also tried double dipping them without any noticeable difference in leading. Seems that for TL boolits, harder is better.

For powder I use WSF-4.3 gr=1042 fps and Unique-4.3 gr=1054 fps
The burn rate for AA5 is the same as Unique, so your powder is OK.

Here is a link to Lee Hardness Tester Chart, shows BHN/Pressure relationship for cast boolits.
http://www.frfrogspad.com/miscellm.htm

Cheers

[Scaramanga]

air cooled WW lead at 16BNH

i cast a new batch at 32BNH (20% zinc WW 115gr:roll:)
sizing is much more difficult
hope there will be no pressure sights

[jonk]

Ok, if versuche das auf Deutsch zu schreiben. Ich kann Deutsch ziemlich gut sprechen, aber es gibt eine spezialistische, technische Vokabulär im Bezug auf dieser Theme, also weiss ich es nicht, ob ich es schaffen kann.... wenn etwas unklar ist, sag mir was.

Manchmals ist schwereres Blei keine Antwort, besonders bei selbst-ladenden Pistolen. Wenn das Geschoss von 'wheel weights' stammt, sollte es schon hart genug sein. Es könnte auch sein, wenn ein Geschoss zu hart ist, dass Gas dem Geschoss vorbei bläst.

Die Frage ist wirklich von Druck und Geschwindigkeit. Persönlich habe ich den besten Glück gehabt, mit einer Geschwindigkeit etwa 300 mps. Je schneller das Geschoss geht, detso mehr wird Blei im Rohr gelassen. Ich würde sagen, probieren Sie weniger Pulver- vielleicht 4 gr. Wenn das die Pistole operiert, dann ist alles in Ordnung. Sie haben Recht- mehr Pulver heisst oft mehr Blei im Rohr.

Sie können auch mehr LLA probieren.

[Scaramanga]

danke jonk
werde mal versuchen wie es mit weniger pulver geht

habe grade einen test mit einem gewehr in 9mm gemacht
200schuß fast kein blei im lauf
2" auf 50meter


9mm rifle works!

lee 2R 124 TL oal 1.115 (don´t fit the cz) 3.3gr hp38
2" at 55yards
nearly no leading
but is a weak load, subsonic out of a rifle:roll:

[dakotashooter2]

I'd still try to work the load upward. My Lee manual shows 6.2 gr max for a 125 gr cast bullet. You are still a full grain below that. You may find a "sweet spot" in between. Are you sure it is leading and not just lube buildup?

[Cloudpeak]

Zinc??? Not good.

I have the same mold and have been trying to work up an accurate load for my M&P (that doesn't gunk up the bore). My M&P barrel slugs .3555". My Lee 6 cavity mold drops .357" to .360" and I sized them to .358. I water dropped this last test batch and lubed some with LLA and some with Johnson Paste Wax.

4.0 gr. of W231 with the LLA lube gave the best group, .64" 7 yds off a bench. 3.8 grains of W231 with the JPW bullet grouped .70", 7 yds, bench. I had leading/gunk problems with air cooled bullets using LLA but these harder bullets did not lead using either LLA or JPW. There was just a small amount of lead/lube and it cleaned up with about three passes through the bore with a brass brush wrapped with "Chore Boy" all copper scrubbing pad "strands, where previous attemps with the air cooled bullets lubed with LLA took quite a bit of scrubbing with the brush/Chore Boy.

Cloudpeak

[jonk]

Das ist ja auch interessant. Wenn kein Blei im Lauf eines Gewehrs gelassan wurde, mit der gleichen Ladung wie in der Pistole, dann würde ich sagen, es sei ein Problem mit dieser Ladung in der Pistole selbst, und nicht mit der Ladung im allgemein. Die Pistole hat es nicht gern. Es kann auch sein, dass in der Pistole Kupfer steht- von Kupfergeschosse. Dass könnte auch zu Problemen bei Bleiverschmutzung führen. Auf diesem Fall, probieren Sie einen guten entkupferer- oder Ammoniak wenn nichts besseres zur Verfügung steht.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

9mm rifle works!

lee 2R 124 TL oal 1.115 (don´t fit the cz) 3.3gr hp38
2" at 55yards
nearly no leading
but is a weak load, subsonic out of a rifle

No fair! You switched powders on us. Seriously, I'm glad you're finding some success. I know I've had leading problems with a .38 special using Unique, but switching to HP-38 did the trick.

You could also probably work up to a higher powder charge. If the double lubing doesn't solve the leading, I'd try water quenching the bullets. Although a 9mm may not have velocities comparable to a .357 magnum, the pressures generated in a 9mm can be up there. Higher pressures faster acceleration - more torque from the rifling etc.