Brass inconsistancy

[opos]

Not sure where to post this so hope this works..I've loaded for years and being an older guy with arthritis I spend most of my range time with a 38 special (shoot a GP100 with moderate 38 special loads..both cast and jwords). I just cleaned and sorted out about 500 cartridges (mostly 2 or 3 times fired) and did the culling and sorting I do to inspect and just be comfortable with the brass I load.

The last few times I've loaded I've noticed that the R/P brass is somewhat thinner (I've measured it and it is thinner than brass like Federal, Winchester, etc)...when I resize, prime, expand and load I've noticed that the R/P (and that's the only one with the problem) leaves the projectile a bit loose in the neck...the neck tension just is not what it should be...this is with both cast and jacketed.

Last time I figured it might be older brass that had been loaded more so I culled it...this batch of my brass and some range pick ups had some more R/P mixed in it and after cleaning, decapping and resizing I again did a measurement and find the necks are a couple of thousanths thinner than the other brass.

I thought it might be the expander in the die that was off a bit but the fact it's only involved in the R/P brass makes me think the thinner brass along with a possible "fatter" expander might just be enough compound the issue and to cause the loose fit. I don't want to try and overcome light throat tension by over crimping.

Just wondering if anyone else has any issues with the R/P brass..it's all brass..the few nickel R/P seems to be fine.

[guncheese]

yup its thinner
and for cast bullets thats not so bad
i did a big test and measured several thousand 45 cases
and remington cases are between .001 and .0015" thinner

so either dont expander so much
or goto a Udie and dont expand so much

[bedbugbilly]

All I shoot is "range brass" and there is RP mixed in. I use Lee dies and really have never had a problem with neck tension. I've noticed a difference sometimes in the amount of pressure needed to seat primers in it (not as much as other headstamps) - I use a Lee hand primer to prime all of my brass.

Since you notice a difference in the neck tension - I'll ask - what size J words are you loading and what do you size your cast to? All I load is cast. Depending on what mold I'm using, some of the designs I load "as cast" and others I size to .358. I really don't believe I've ever had an issue with any of the RP brass I'm using as far as neck tension. I full length size it, expand it, seat the cast bullet and finish with the Lee FCD. I do seat and crimp in two different operations.

I'm just curious as to what diameter J words you use and what you size your cast to? If you're sorting your RP out and loading with cast, maybe size it a .001 larger or load "as cast"?

[ReloaderFred]

I just finished loading a run of 3,000 .38's for some upcoming matches and it's all mixed brass, with over a third of it Remington. I have no problem with it at all, but I size my bullets .358". It could be that your sizing die is at the maximum of the parameters for the caliber, and the problem would only show up with slightly thinner brass.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[opos]

Thanks for all the replies...I really think the situation is one of cumulative "error"...I think the R/P brass is thinner than some others...I think that my die set may have an expander that is just a shade to the "fat side" but within spec and the cumulative effect is one of just a bit of looseness in the neck tension.

The cast that I use is a 125 grain Missouri bullet "cowboy" bullet with a 12 hardness..they are a bit tighter fit and I do use a FCD (Lee) for my final stage of loading..the jacketed are Remington or Speer 125 grain SJHP's...my "test" has been to take a loaded round after all steps are finished and put the bullet nose against the edge of my bench and push...there is no question that the jacketed bullets just move with little effort at all in the R/P brass and the cast take a bit more of a push to move..I don't see any movement with either cast or jacketed in the other "mixed" brass that is not R/P. solution is going to be to borrow a set of dies from a friend and simply follow the same steps I use now and see if I can "prove" that my dies might be a hair on the high end of tolerance...if that works..simple answer is spend the few bucks to replace the expander die and move on...Again many thanks for the input..just one of the little interesting but frustrating things that keep the hobby fun.

[r1kk1]

Hey Opos!

Do any of the rounds increase in length when you fire one or two rounds? I would measure six rounds, load the cylinder, fire one or two and measure the rest to see if overall length increases. If not your good.

check that

r1kk1

[Char-Gar]

I have not had any issues with R-P commercial 38 Special brass and have used allot of it. I do have issues with RP GI 38 Special brass. I find the neck thickness of this stuff to vary quite a bit from case to case. This is not so with commercial brass of all makes and GI brass with WCC, FA and LC headstamps.

With the RA GI brass I load it once with a heavy crimp and eject it at the range and leave it there.

[mdi]

If I had the "problem" you describe, I would just sort the RP brass out and load them all at the same time, adjusting the roll crimp just a bit tighter (and ferget the Lee FCD). For .38 Special, a hefty crimp/high neck tension isn't necessary, especially with light recoiling 125 gr. loads.

[opos]

The "loosness" is significant regardless of crimp...I can push the bullet into the case with light finger pressure after charging and loading...after crimping I can still just put the bullet against the table edge and slide it right into the neck..it's not going to work so I've written to Lee...I'm 99% certain that the known "thinner neck brass" combined with a resizing die that is at the top level of it's dimension is the problem...I can take a fired case and the new bullet (cast or jacketed) will slip easilly into the neck...then I can resize it and in most of the cases the bullet will begin to slide in even before expanding or belling...when I bell/expand there is hardly any die contact at all..the throat dimension is already at the maximum....I'll post what Lee has to say.

I've loaded thousands of these on another set of dies that I got rid of a while back as a favor to a guy...I got a new set and the problem is with this set of dies...I just noticed it was all with R/P when loading with these...I'd bet that the prior set of dies was a smaller dimension (just a thousanth or two) and that there was enough neck tension to hold things in place...but I'd bet if I could go back and check..the R/P would be less tension than the other brass..

I'll post when I hear.

[opos]

Howdy...they are simply too loose to even fire the first time to check...I can push the bullet into the throat after the full process even when crimped with finger pressure. Haven't gotten to borrow my buddy's dies but I'm on the trail.

[opos]

Just an update...Peter at Lee's Customer Service and I have discussed the situation and regardless of it being the die, the brass or a combination..I'm sending my sizing die and some of the brass in question to him and he's assured me he'll get me a sizing die that will do all the brands of brass...so a thumbs up to Lee for their customer support..good guys.

[trlcavscout]

This is interesting, I just started loading 38/357 a couple weeks ago and have the same problem. I have been useing lee dies for years with cast and plated bullets mainly and have never had an issue with 9/40/45/44 but these 38/357 dies don't seem to size right to get the neck tension. I am useing range brass also but when I set up my dies like I normally do and do a thumb test I can push the boolit sized with the lee .358 sizer clear in the case without much effort. Now I just adjusted the crimp tight enough to make up for it because I don't shoot 38 much and it's just light plinking loads. If I was loading it hotter it would be an issue. But maybe I will send them an email.

[opos]

Ok...it's the 29th and my new die is enroute from Lee...I'm really impressed with the way Peter in Lee's customer service reacted to this situation...I had sent the die, some of the cleaned but not resized fired R/P brass and some of the Remington SJHP projectiles...He was kind enough to let me know that the die I had sent him was just at the high side of the spec..perhaps just a touch over and that combined with the thin R/P brass was the issue...the die he is sending me will not only size all the other brands but will size the R/P properly as well...don't know the "reasons"...I didn't ask...I just know he really got it taken care of in a hurry and I should have the replacement die tomorrow...As I said before I'd had a carbide 4 die set from Lee before that had just worked fine .... gave it away and the one that was a problem was a newer set...anyhow...it's over and done..and a happy Lee customer again.

[MT Chambers]

If I had the "problem" you describe, I would just sort the RP brass out and load them all at the same time, adjusting the roll crimp just a bit tighter (and ferget the Lee FCD). For .38 Special, a hefty crimp/high neck tension isn't necessary, especially with light recoiling 125 gr. loads.
This makes the most sense!!

[williamwaco]

I have heard of this problem from several sources so I am convinced it does exist.
I do a lot of accuracy testing and am now testing accuracy vs cases.
I have seperated about 2000 cases into four batches:
WW
RP
Fed
Star-Line ( The starline were bought new )

I have found no difference in neck tension, thickness, or accuracy in any of them.

[opos]

This makes the most sense!!

Makes little sense to me..the die was faulty..Lee agreed and replaced it...I'll not shoot a 38 special or anything else where there is insuffecient neck tension (forget the crimp) to hold the bullet in the cartridge when applying only light finger pressure...they would set back just jiggling around in a box on the way to the range...the die was undersize...the brass (proven by many is within spec but at the low end of the range..the two things together caused the problem...I've just reloaded about 100 rounds in the R/P brass mixed with several other brands as a test...no heavy crimp...it works perfectly now with the new die...I don't understand how "sorting out" a bunch of 38 special plinking ammo is a good solution..the dies are supposed to work with any spec brass and the new one does it just fine.