Brass problems - what do you think?

[USAFrox]

Ok, here's the set-up:

I'm a military tech school instructor. When I get ready to graduate a class, we have a "class graduation activity", which can be whatever the class decides (as long as the commander approves it, of course. As cadre, we have to have commander approval to meet with the students in a social setting). Lately, my classes have been wanting to go shooting as the graduation activity. Since I'm a member of the local gun club, I can get them in with me as my guests. I tell them "I'll bring the guns, and you bring ammo for whatever you want to shoot." Of course I tell them what calibers I have guns for, and then they just shop for ammo for whichever ones they want to shoot. I'm a nice guy, but there's no way I can afford to provide all the ammo they'd want to shoot.

Anyways, we went shooting for my last class's graduation activity. When it came to shooting the handguns, a couple of them decided that they wanted to shoot my .40's, but hadn't brought any .40 ammo. Being the nice guy that I am, I offered to let them shoot some .40 reloads that I had brought. I only had one box of 50 rounds, but I loaded up a couple of mags for each of them. In those 4 mags (2 mags in each of two different guns), I had two cases that had their case heads ripped right off.

119106119107119108119109119110119111

Each of the two different guns tore off a case head. Had to take them each apart and use pliers to get the case cylinder (body?) out of the chambers.

After the second one, I noticed that my extractor was broken in half on one of the guns. 119112

At that point, I called it quits on shooting any more of those reloads.

I pulled led the rest of the bullets that were left from that box. I found that they all has the correct amount of powder that was marked on the box (6.2 grains of unique under a 180 grain Hornady XTP). There are no visible pressure signs on the primers. Here's the ones that were shot:

Looks like a **** batch of brass. What do you think?

Here's a pic of the brass that was shot but didn't rip apart. Pics suck, but you can see a circular tear in the base of each.119105119113

Here's the ones I pulled, but didn't shoot:119114

By the way, the brass was FC brass. I'll never shoot FC brass again.

[USAFrox]

Pics added. Forgot to add the pic of the primers, but there are no visible pressure signs.

[lefty o]

just my opinion, but i believe you were loaded too hot. the XTP bullet is a bullet that needs to be used with its own load data. your pics arent good enough to really see anything, but imo i dont believe the brass is the issue. if the brass had just failed, your extractor wouldnt have broken in half.

[Ehaver]

What was the C.O.L of the rounds?

And where did you get your data? According to thh Alliant Reloaders guide, 6.7 Grn is the max for a 180 JHP...

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipePrint.aspx?gtypeid=1&weight=180&shellid=29&bulletid=42&bdid=118

[Plate plinker]

Wondering if the first round did this? They may be moving in the mag under recoil. Seems you may be working near the max load and therefore any other mistakes will show up in grand fashion.

[captaint]

What are the chances that brass was fired in a Glock the first time around ?? If it was, it could have been overworked getting the bulge out - thinned the case walls above the web. Other than that - I got nothin. Mike

[USAFrox]

Wondering if the first round did this? They may be moving in the mag under recoil. Seems you may be working near the max load and therefore any other mistakes will show up in grand fashion.
No, it wasn't the first round. In one gun, it was the 20th round. In the other, it was like the 12th or 13th.

I know that the picture quality sucked, but in the rounds that weren't shot, that I pulled, you can see the circular cut around the inside base of the case beginning.

I don't own a Glock (never will), but I do gather a bunch of brass off the ground at the range, so it may have been shot in a Glock, even though it was not by me. When I find bulged brass, I use a Lee bulge buster to take it out. Hadn't thought of that as having been a problem, but that's a good thought.

[USAFrox]

just my opinion, but i believe you were loaded too hot. the XTP bullet is a bullet that needs to be used with its own load data. your pics arent good enough to really see anything, but imo i dont believe the brass is the issue. if the brass had just failed, your extractor wouldnt have broken in half.
According to my Lee manual, it recommends between 5.9 and 6.7 grains of unique for the 180 grain XTP. They have separate sections for the XTP bullets. So I know it wasn't an overcharge, as I am WELL within spec at 6.2 grains. Also, as mentioned, there was no primer flattening or other pressure signs, even on the headstamp I recovered that had been ripped off, so I don't see it as a pressure problem, per se.

[Wayne Smith]

I'm guessing these were glocked brass that you de-glocked and didn't realize that the original glocking weakened the brass in that area. Reforming it does not replace the thickness of the thinned brass.

[gpidaho]

I agree with the others, most likely Glocked brass and may have been previously reloaded. Although I do it myself you can see that there is risk in picking up range brass. On the other hand, in the shortage I bought some new FC 223 brass and they could use some tightening up on quality control. As this brass was to be neck sized with a Redding bushing die after fire forming, I turned the necks with my Sinclair tool. Brass thickness on the necks varied a lot and very uneven side to side I'm going to use it up in my AR and buy better brass for my target bolt rifles. GP

[MtGun44]

Clearly the pressure was still very high when the guns were unlocking and trying to
extract the cases - this pulled the heads off and eventually broke the massively overloaded
extractor.

I would expect overpressure. The .40 is running at 35,000 psi NORMAL pressure, so there
is little margin to allow for variation in components. One real possibility is that the boolit
tension was inadequate and they were pushing in a bit while feeding. This will MASSIVELY
increase pressures in a cartridge like .40 S&W or 9mm Luger.

Load a sample round with the same brass and components and then push it HARD against
the edge of your bench. If you can change the LOA at all, this is likely your problem.

And "I'll never load Federal brass again" is ridiculous. The possibility of a brass fault exists
but is vanishingly small. I am always amazed how many handloaders are resistant to looking
where the REAL problems are likely to come from - that guy in the mirror.

You need to be looking hard for what you did to cause this - realizing that billions of rounds of
.40 S&W are reloaded safely, BUT recognizing that this round is one of the "squirrely ones"
that has very little margin between normal and serious overpressures. I have known more
people that have blown up .40s that all other cartridges combined. I never recommend
that new handloaders start with this one, it is just not a very happy cartridge.

Take care and spend some time figuring this out. If you think that not using Federal brass
will fix this, you will likely be seeing this again. Is it possible that you are using an exceptionally
slow powder that may have a longer time of high pressure? Perhaps a faster burning powder
and staying on the low side of the book loads would be a good starting place.

If you cannot move the boolit (adequate neck tension, and taper crimp) by pushing, I would
use a different powder and start at the low end. Changing powder makes more sense than
changing brass to me. It is possible that there is a brass problem, but I would rate that
at a far, far lower possibility than some issue with selection of components and dimensions
of the cartridges with the bullet pushing in during feeding high on my personal list.

Bill

[tomme boy]

It looks like there are two things going on. One is the Glocked brass. I have been saying that ever sense Lee came out with that stupid de-glock brass die. Another thing I see is it looks like the gun was firing partially out of battery the way the brass is bulged all the way around.

If you could, pull your barrel and take a picture of the barrel with a piece of brass that you pulled dropped into the chamber. Need to see how it fits.

[LUBEDUDE]

I agree with Bill that bullet shift may be a possibility. I'm a firm believer in the bench/push test.

[lefty o]

According to my Lee manual, it recommends between 5.9 and 6.7 grains of unique for the 180 grain XTP. They have separate sections for the XTP bullets. So I know it wasn't an overcharge, as I am WELL within spec at 6.2 grains. Also, as mentioned, there was no primer flattening or other pressure signs, even on the headstamp I recovered that had been ripped off, so I don't see it as a pressure problem, per se.
#1 i dont trust the lee manual, as ive run into problems with it before, but i do have 1. looking in mine (modernreloading second edition), it doesnt even list unique with the 180XTP. they do list unique under the generic 180 grain jacketed bullet with a max of 6.4gr as a compressed charge. with the XTP being a heavier constructed bullet, you are likely overpressure, regardless of "visible pressure signs". if the brass was the problem alone, your extractor would have just ripped through the rim, instead of being broken in half!

[garym1a2]

Before I read this post my guess was it was shot thru a Glocked and than went thru a Lee bulge buster.
I run all my 40 thru a bulge buster and try to discard them if they looked buged. I only had the problem you noted once in over 12K rounds of 40. I do load much lighter loads than you list.
Most of those 12K rounds I used was with my KKM and Storm lake barrels. The one time it blew I was using the Glock barrel testing powder coat.


No, it wasn't the first round. In one gun, it was the 20th round. In the other, it was like the 12th or 13th.

I know that the picture quality sucked, but in the rounds that weren't shot, that I pulled, you can see the circular cut around the inside base of the case beginning.

I don't own a Glock (never will), but I do gather a bunch of brass off the ground at the range, so it may have been shot in a Glock, even though it was not by me. When I find bulged brass, I use a Lee bulge buster to take it out. Hadn't thought of that as having been a problem, but that's a good thought.

[montana_charlie]

By the way, the brass was FC brass. I'll never shoot FC brass again.
I haven't needed to buy any new brass for quite a while, now. But, for something like forty years, Federal cases were considered to be the best you could get for reloading.

However, that would have been said of new brass, or the once fired stuff that you know the history of.

Picking up random trash off of the ground to make ammunition puts reloading in a totally different realm ...


(Air Force tech school instructor, Keesler AFB, 1980 to 1985.)
CM

[USAFrox]

It looks like there are two things going on. One is the Glocked brass. I have been saying that ever sense Lee came out with that stupid de-glock brass die. Another thing I see is it looks like the gun was firing partially out of battery the way the brass is bulged all the way around.

If you could, pull your barrel and take a picture of the barrel with a piece of brass that you pulled dropped into the chamber. Need to see how it fits.
Here is a pic (sorry about the crappy quality - my Ipad doesn't take good pics) of one of the unfired (pulled) cases in the barrel:119167119168119169
And here's some pics of the fired (but unripped) brass, showing the primers and unbulged cases:
119170119171119172
And for the guy who said that the Lee manual doesn't have XTP but only generic 180 grain loadings, here's a snapshot of the page with the 180 grain XTP specific info:
119173
This manual gives 6.7 grains of Unique as max. My Sierra Manual gives 6.7 grains of Unique as max. The Alliant manual (posted above) gives 6.7 grains of Unique as max. So... 6.2 grains shouldn't be too much powder. I understand about all of the other things that may increase pressure, such as seating too deeply, crimp, etc. But the amount of powder alone (which keeps being brought up) shouldn't be an issue.

The reason I said "I'll never load FC brass again", was that in the pulled brass, which was not shot, you can see (well, if my pics quality were better you could see it) a circular cut around the flash hole on the inside, which is exactly where the two cases failed. So without me having shot it (this time), they are already nearly broken cases. THAT's why I said I'd never load FC cases again - not just because I'm looking for a scapegoat.

I think that the best possibility at this point from what everyone's said is that the cases either suck, or these may have been some of the cases that I ran through a bulge buster, and they may have been glocked cases (no way of me knowing for sure whether that is the case or not). IF they were glocked cases, then running them through the bulge buster may have caused extra stress on the web of the case, and started those cuts in them. Or the cases may just suck.

I appreciate everyone that has helped me try and figure this out. I apologize if it seems like I'm a bit touchy about this, but it seems like some folks are attacking the messenger rather than trying to help figure it out. I'm not saying I never make mistakes, but when the cases that I didn't fire already have cracks in the web, it doesn't seem like my amount of powder is the culprit. Just sayin'.

You guys have made me rethink some important things, though:

#1. Perhaps I shouldn't pick up someone else's .40 that they leave on the ground at the range. Who knows what it's been through.
#2. Perhaps I shouldn't use the bulge buster on .40 - and just throw the bulged brass in the scrap bin instead.
#3. Need to check my crimp to ensure that the bullets can't move under recoil.

Thanks again for the help.

[lefty o]

oh dont worry, i think we all understand how one can get a bit tense about this happening. i like your 3 tings at the end of your post, ill bet that will clear up a bunch of possible issues.

[tomme boy]

Load a dummy that is long and put a live primer in it to see if it will fire with the case partially out of the chamber. That budge around your bad cases does not look like a unsupported chamber that the early Glocks had. You can use your barrel out of the gun to set the length longer. Do a few to see where it will still fire. Load the dummies a little longer for each one. See how they are flush with the hood? You don't want them flush for this check.

JUST MAKE SURE THERE IS NO POWDER ANYWHERE NEAR YOU WHILE LOADING THESE THIS WAY!

The bullets may have been loaded a little long. And the gun may be able to fire this way.

[shooter93]

Glocked brass, despite what the manual says the load is getting up there if the gun has a tight chamber especially if the bullet was pushed back at all. I'm of the opinion that pressure signs from primers flattening particularly in handguns is not reliable. You're already in the danger zone with a lot of primers if they are flattened and pressuers can be to high before you see that happen.

[Lumpy grits]

I have had my best results with Blue-Dot powder at 7.6 gn w/180gn bullets.
Double ck your scale for accuracy and to be sure it's 'zero'd'.
BTW-I shoot mix'd brass 40 in my H&K and Glock with never an issue.
LG

[RED333]

Pics of "Glocked brass", "IF" USAFrox used brass that was fired from a Glock the chamber would have not made the trip home.
USAFrox you used bad brass that was bad from the getgo, Glock smile will not pull the rim off like yours did, it blows up.
Make for a bad day.
These are not mine as fired from my 7 Glock 40S&W pistols.
These are bought as once fired. My son and myself read a LOT about reloading 40 for Glocks, we look at each and every case
very well, no need to add to the fun.
http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/ac165/redintn/Glock%20smile/gs1_zps79f1ca0f.jpg (http://s896.photobucket.com/user/redintn/media/Glock%20smile/gs1_zps79f1ca0f.jpg.html)
http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/ac165/redintn/Glock%20smile/gs2_zps897a7b30.jpg (http://s896.photobucket.com/user/redintn/media/Glock%20smile/gs2_zps897a7b30.jpg.html)

[Lumpy grits]

Red-How do you know those where from a Glock?
My 3rd gen G/40 never puts out cases that look like that.
LG

[jsizemore]

Since your seeing a circular cut around the flashhole, have you checked to see if your decapping rod is set too low? It may be hitting the web on some cases harder then others and maybe feel like a bulged case. Just throwing it out there since it hasn't been mentioned.

Bullet setback when feeding in factory ammo was what got me started loading and casting boolits for my pistols.

[USAFrox]

Since your seeing a circular cut around the flashhole, have you checked to see if your decapping rod is set too low? It may be hitting the web on some cases harder then others and maybe feel like a bulged case. Just throwing it out there since it hasn't been mentioned.

Bullet setback when feeding in factory ammo was what got me started loading and casting boolits for my pistols.
I haven't checked that, but that seems like a good thing to check. Thanks!

[USAFrox]

I have had my best results with Blue-Dot powder at 7.6 gn w/180gn bullets.
Double ck your scale for accuracy and to be sure it's 'zero'd'.
BTW-I shoot mix'd brass 40 in my H&K and Glock with never an issue.
LG
I always zero my RCBS 505 scale before every reloading session. If I end up reloading multiple different calibers in a single session, I recheck my scale zero before each time I use it to reset my powder measure.

[USAFrox]

Load a dummy that is long and put a live primer in it to see if it will fire with the case partially out of the chamber. That budge around your bad cases does not look like a unsupported chamber that the early Glocks had. You can use your barrel out of the gun to set the length longer. Do a few to see where it will still fire. Load the dummies a little longer for each one. See how they are flush with the hood? You don't want them flush for this check.

JUST MAKE SURE THERE IS NO POWDER ANYWHERE NEAR YOU WHILE LOADING THESE THIS WAY!

The bullets may have been loaded a little long. And the gun may be able to fire this way.

I'm not exactly sure what you are saying, so let me see if I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong:

Are you saying to load cartridges with no powder, at successively longer lengths, using only the primer to see if they fire? Then, I'm assuming I would start with the longest one, which holds the slide open the farthest, and shoot it in my gun, to see if it fires? Then, if it doesn't fire, put the next longest in and see if it fires, etc, until I get one that fires? This would all be to see if my gun will fire with the slide out of battery, right? Of course, if it does fire, then I would need to pound the fired bullet out of the barrel, as being fired while jammed into the rifling - even with just with a primer - should get it wedged nicely into the leade, right?

if I've missed the point of what you were saying, please correct me.

by the way, thanks to all who are offering help. I appreciate it.

[Plate plinker]

Keep us posted on your investigation, I like the scale theory that carried a lot of weight in this type of issue.

I use opb. But avoid guys using race guns. They are brass destroyers.

i think it's a simple fix. Start anew. Check and recheck and start with less powder like its a entirely new load.

[geargnasher]

It did this in two different pistols with a good load and the unfired teardowns show a distinct brass defect. I think you have a bad run of brass there, period. You did your due diligence by dissecting the remainder and checking your load. Those torn heads don't look like overcharges to me, or a result of "glocking" case failure either, RED333 explained why neither of us think it's glock brass failure very well above.

Bullet setback is a very real concern, the only kaboom I've ever (knock on wood!!) had was a result of some .45 ACP cast hollow point loads I worked up with a too-large expanding mandrel and too-soft bullets that resulted in setback in the case due to recoil after the first few were fired from the magazine. Blew the heck out of a nice 1911 and I couldn't feel my hands for a couple days, but otherwise no harm done. If the bullets were setting back and causing a high-pressure situation, you would have noticed it in the rounds remaining in the magazines of the guns at the failure point in the shooting strings. Again, that doesn't look like excessive pressure, just brass failure, more than likely due to the forming defects you described and photographed.

.40 brass is cheap and widely available, just clean it really good, decap it, and inspect inside each case from now on, paying special attention to any incipient case head separations on the inside. If it looks questionable, toss it and don't give it a second thought.

If you don't own a wet-tumbler and stainless-steel media, I HIGHLY recommend you don't buy another shooting item until you get one. There is no better way to get the brass sparkly-clean so you can really have a clear look at the inside of the cases. I'll give a plug to SSTM (in the sponsor banner at the top of the page) where I got mine, and recommend the master kit, it will be the best $300 you ever spent.

Gear

[Bullwolf]

Tread very carefully when loading the 40 S&W cartridge. I don't shoot it very often in an auto loader myself, and I don't own a Glock. The majority of my 40 S&W is fired in a Smith 610 revolver with no case support issues.

Internet rumor says the early FC stamped Federal 40 S&W brass had a thinner area where the case wall meets the web. This caused problems in barrels with unsupported chambers, in particular Glocks but technically any pistol with an unsupported chamber could have an issue. I've also read that the later Federal brass, marked Federal, instead of FC is safe to reload.

I've seen and fired lots of 40S&W at the range when the cartridge was new. I personally did not witness first hand any case failures. Years later I read about them due to the glory of the Internet.

Is it rumor? Did the FC brass have a thinner case, or a flaw in the case web? Or maybe bullet set back issues? Heck, I don't know. Many did believe the FC cases had a problem though. Supposedly Federal would even swap out early stuff for later stuff if contacted with a problem.

I don't load FC head stamp 40 S&W brass anymore. I inspect and sort all of my 40 brass, removing that particular head stamp. If I find bulged 40S&W brass, (rare) I toss it as well, rather than horsing around with a bulge buster. I still have a good amount of 40 brass.

In the past I've likely loaded older 40 FC cases at work. While I experienced no problems doing so, to me it's simply just not worth the risk.

Some additional reading about FC head stamp 40S&W brass:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=159116

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=846395

http://www.glockpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8035

http://glocktalk.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-1369305.html

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-582841.html

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-532963.html&&

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-582841.html


- Bullwolf

[tomme boy]

I did not see it happened in two pistols. I guess I should read more. If this happened in only one pistol, Yes I would do the test I tried to explain.

[RED333]

Red-How do you know those where from a Glock?
My 3rd gen G/40 never puts out cases that look like that.
LG
LE range pickup, was told that is all they were shooting.
None of our Glocks do it ether, some do bulge,, but we do not reload them, once fired from our Glocks they go to the scrap yard.

[jsizemore]

I'm not exactly sure what you are saying, so let me see if I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong:

Are you saying to load cartridges with no powder, at successively longer lengths, using only the primer to see if they fire? Then, I'm assuming I would start with the longest one, which holds the slide open the farthest, and shoot it in my gun, to see if it fires? Then, if it doesn't fire, put the next longest in and see if it fires, etc, until I get one that fires? This would all be to see if my gun will fire with the slide out of battery, right? Of course, if it does fire, then I would need to pound the fired bullet out of the barrel, as being fired while jammed into the rifling - even with just with a primer - should get it wedged nicely into the leade, right?

if I've missed the point of what you were saying, please correct me.

by the way, thanks to all who are offering help. I appreciate it.

I think you can do this test and leave the spent primer in place. The striker/hammer shouldn't fall if out of battery.

[geargnasher]

But TWO different guns did it, different makes I assume? I know the S&W M&Ps will drop the hammer if slightly out of battery due to excess cartridge OAL and will put a tiny ding in the primer (off-center badly) but I've never actually had one fire that way.

What silly person gave this thread a one-star rating, anyway? I found it rife with intelligent, thoughtful, helpful suggestions and contributions of experience.

Gear

[leeggen]

Was just reading an article about the 40S&W, amoung others, that had case seperations during the early years. It mentioned that Federal in about 1995 modified the brass cases so they had a thicker base,(case head), as to help reduce the posibilities of seperation. So maybe the brass you picked up was of pre 1995 and had the old thinner case head. That could explain why the cracks inside around the primer flash hole, you would have no idea how hot someonelse had loaded the pre 1995 cases. Just a thought===
CD

[USAFrox]

But TWO different guns did it, different makes I assume? I know the S&W M&Ps will drop the hammer if slightly out of battery due to excess cartridge OAL and will put a tiny ding in the primer (off-center badly) but I've never actually had one fire that way.

What silly person gave this thread a one-star rating, anyway? I found it rife with intelligent, thoughtful, helpful suggestions and contributions of experience.

Gear
Yes, two different guns did it: an H&K USP full size, and a Sig 2022. One in each. 20th round (last of the second mag) in the Sig, and about the 12th or 13th (first part of second mag) in the H&K. It was the H&K the broke the extractor.

I was standing over the shoulder of the girl firing the H&K when it happened. There was no kaboom. Didn't sound any different than normal. First indication of a problem was when it didn't go back into battery after a shot. She handed it to me, and I tried to see what happened. I could see that the next round wasn't feeding into the chamber. After a minute, I finally saw the ring of brass from the previous round still in the chamber. That is what was keeping the next round from chambering. Took the gun apart, got the pliers, removed the body of the broken round, then handed it back to her. She fired one more shot, and it didn't extract. That's when I noticed the broken extractor.

Didn't notice any problem with the other gun until I was putting all the guns away. I always check all the chambers visually as I'm packing up to make sure they are all unloaded, and that is when I saw the cylinder of brass sticking out of the chamber of the Sig. The shooter hadn't noticed anything wrong and just put it down after finishing the second mag of 10 rounds. So no kaboom there, either. The case heads just ripped off with nothing big or flashy happening, as far as we could see or hear.

[USAFrox]

Was just reading an article about the 40S&W, amoung others, that had case seperations during the early years. It mentioned that Federal in about 1995 modified the brass cases so they had a thicker base,(case head), as to help reduce the posibilities of seperation. So maybe the brass you picked up was of pre 1995 and had the old thinner case head. That could explain why the cracks inside around the primer flash hole, you would have no idea how hot someonelse had loaded the pre 1995 cases. Just a thought===
CD
Yeah, I think it really comes down to bad brass. That seems to make the most sense with all of the evidence.

[USAFrox]

I think you can do this test and leave the spent primer in place. The striker/hammer shouldn't fall if out of battery.
Ah, that does make a lot more sense, rather than having to pound a stuck round out of my barrel afterwards. Thanks!

[USAFrox]

Tread very carefully when loading the 40 S&W cartridge. I don't shoot it very often in an auto loader myself, and I don't own a Glock. The majority of my 40 S&W is fired in a Smith 610 revolver with no case support issues.

Internet rumor says the early FC stamped Federal 40 S&W brass had a thinner area where the case wall meets the web. This caused problems in barrels with unsupported chambers, in particular Glocks but technically any pistol with an unsupported chamber could have an issue. I've also read that the later Federal brass, marked Federal, instead of FC is safe to reload.

I've seen and fired lots of 40S&W at the range when the cartridge was new. I personally did not witness first hand any case failures. Years later I read about them due to the glory of the Internet.

Is it rumor? Did the FC brass have a thinner case, or a flaw in the case web? Or maybe bullet set back issues? Heck, I don't know. Many did believe the FC cases had a problem though. Supposedly Federal would even swap out early stuff for later stuff if contacted with a problem.

I don't load FC head stamp 40 S&W brass anymore. I inspect and sort all of my 40 brass, removing that particular head stamp. If I find bulged 40S&W brass, (rare) I toss it as well, rather than horsing around with a bulge buster. I still have a good amount of 40 brass.

In the past I've likely loaded older 40 FC cases at work. While I experienced no problems doing so, to me it's simply just not worth the risk.

Some additional reading about FC head stamp 40S&W brass:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=159116

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=846395

http://www.glockpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8035

http://glocktalk.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-1369305.html

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-582841.html

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-532963.html&&

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-582841.html


- Bullwolf
Thanks for the info and links! Makes a lot of sense that way. I bet I just got a run of this weak brass.

[USAFrox]

It did this in two different pistols with a good load and the unfired teardowns show a distinct brass defect. I think you have a bad run of brass there, period. You did your due diligence by dissecting the remainder and checking your load. Those torn heads don't look like overcharges to me, or a result of "glocking" case failure either, RED333 explained why neither of us think it's glock brass failure very well above.

Bullet setback is a very real concern, the only kaboom I've ever (knock on wood!!) had was a result of some .45 ACP cast hollow point loads I worked up with a too-large expanding mandrel and too-soft bullets that resulted in setback in the case due to recoil after the first few were fired from the magazine. Blew the heck out of a nice 1911 and I couldn't feel my hands for a couple days, but otherwise no harm done. If the bullets were setting back and causing a high-pressure situation, you would have noticed it in the rounds remaining in the magazines of the guns at the failure point in the shooting strings. Again, that doesn't look like excessive pressure, just brass failure, more than likely due to the forming defects you described and photographed.

.40 brass is cheap and widely available, just clean it really good, decap it, and inspect inside each case from now on, paying special attention to any incipient case head separations on the inside. If it looks questionable, toss it and don't give it a second thought.

If you don't own a wet-tumbler and stainless-steel media, I HIGHLY recommend you don't buy another shooting item until you get one. There is no better way to get the brass sparkly-clean so you can really have a clear look at the inside of the cases. I'll give a plug to SSTM (in the sponsor banner at the top of the page) where I got mine, and recommend the master kit, it will be the best $300 you ever spent.

Gear
It may indeed be time for me to get a stainless brass wet cleaner. Been avoiding the expense, but this may be the impetus I need to get off my cheap butt and finally take the plunge. Thanks!

[garym1a2]

I rated it a 5 just now since I shoot a lot of 40 I would like to know how to prevent it. While it only happened to me once, it would be good to learn how to prevent it.

But TWO different guns did it, different makes I assume? I know the S&W M&Ps will drop the hammer if slightly out of battery due to excess cartridge OAL and will put a tiny ding in the primer (off-center badly) but I've never actually had one fire that way.

What silly person gave this thread a one-star rating, anyway? I found it rife with intelligent, thoughtful, helpful suggestions and contributions of experience.

Gear

[rosewood]

I haven't thoroughly read all of the post, but here is a thought I had. Could there be a rough chamber and not so well polished brass. The friction in the chamber could be holding the brass in and causing the head to be torn off on a previously weakened brass? Could be a perfect storm, weak brass, high pressure and rough surface causing the issue. Light chamber polishing helped extraction issues on some guns I have had.

[popper]

I don't load FC head stamp 40 S&W brass anymore Me neither. Federal is OK. Looks like out-of battery to me.

[Geppetto]

USAFrox, you should mail me one of the intact cases that has the ring on the inside. I could cut it in half and polish to show if there is a defect present, and if so, the extent of the defect (depth, etc). PM incoming.

[USAFrox]

USAFrox, you should mail me one of the intact cases that has the ring on the inside. I could cut it in half and polish to show if there is a defect present, and if so, the extent of the defect (depth, etc). PM incoming.
I'd love to. I'm certainly not going to shoot it, so I'll send you several of the fired and unfired (pulled) brass, so you can check them out. PM sent.

[Blacksmith]

Looking forward to the results of the sectioning.

[Lumpy grits]

Been reload'n .40 S&W for over 20+ years.
I shoot .40 in Glock and H&K almost weekly. Shoot with many LEO's that shoot .40.
The only time I have seen any case look'n close to the ones picture'd, were from OBD.
Respectfully,
LG

[USAFrox]

OBD? What's that?

[Lumpy grits]

OBD? What's that?

-Out of Battery Discharge-

LG

[tomme boy]

Thats why I was asking you to do the test like I did. If the bullet was long, it would do the same thing by holding the slide open.

[Lumpy grits]

Thats why I was asking you to do the test like I did. If the bullet was long, it would do the same thing by holding the slide open.

It should not fire IF the slide is not 'locked' in battery.
I would like to know the COAL of the suspect rounds.
I don't load mine past 1.125"--
LG

[geargnasher]

This is why I like the 1911 models with firing-pin disconnects, among other reasons.

First time I had an OOB condition due to lube/powder fouling accumulating in the front of an M&P, I noticed it when the trigger didn't quite go all the way back, but the striker fell with a dull "click". My eyes got really wide when, while still on target and half-expecting a hang-fire to happen, I glanced at the back of the slide and noticed it was 1/16" proud of the frame. Yikes. Double-Yikes when ejecting the unfired round and finding a light primer strike.

Gear

[Lumpy grits]

A chamber gauge is a re-loaders best friend.
BTW-I seen several 1911s, OBD for various reasons.
No auto is exempt.
LG

[Plate plinker]

Amen lumpy on the case gauge

[Lumpy grits]

Amen lumpy on the case gauge

Cheap insurance against stupid--
Have a gauge for every caliber I load from .32S&W to .50BMG.
LG