What is "excellent" accuracy for a cast load in a colt .45?

[Andy]

Just getting started with casting/reloading here. I've shot a good bit of pistol before but mostly 9mm and .22, always idpa/combat focused training or just plinking at steel, hardly ever any slow fire where I measured group size.

I had a chance to try out a cast load provided by a friend today (first cast load ever through the gun) and felt like the accuracy was good but wanted to see what you guys thought before pursuing the load further. This is a pretty standard series 80 colt, I think it is a commander model and has a 5" barrel, factory trigger & barrel etc. I only slow fired one group with it so I realize that is not the best sample point but I shot 5 rounds into a 1.8" group firing offhand at 25 yards. My intuition is that this is great and I should really look at getting the specifics on this load and refining it for my gun. All I know so far about the load is that it was 230gr lead round nose and that the bullets were purchased, not hand cast by the maker. I can get specifics on it pretty easily if it is worth pursuing.

I'm new to casting and don't know what leading in the barrel looks like but I showed it to someone who is experienced with casting for rifle and he said it would be called "minor" leading, but was enough to where you would probably still keep working on the load to get rid of it. This was after 50 cast rounds fired, with 8 jacketed mixed in roughly after round 25 of the cast.

So, my questions are:
1) How many 5 shot groups would you shoot to decide if a load is shooting well? Is 25 yard offhand the standard here? I fully realize that my one 5 round group could just be somewhat lucky, so at what point are you sure it isn't?
2) Is there a go-to standard group size at __ distance that tells you "yeah, that's a keeper load/gun etc"? I shoot other guns for carry/carry training, I would like my .45 to become a real tack-driver for target shooting if possible so I'm willing to spend some time on this if I should.
3) Should I be shooting off a rest for accuracy tests and if so, what technique is recommended? I know how to set up sandbags for sighting in a rifle but don't know what is recommended when doing the same for a pistol.

I have gotten tons of great info from this forum and I am glad to be a part of it now. I've read most of the recent posts in most of the subforums (especially this one) so forgive me if I am asking questions that have already been answered.

Thanks,
Andy

[osteodoc08]

For me, it's 2" or less at 50 yards benched. Off hand it's 2" at 25 yards. To ME that constitutes excellent accuracy. I like to shoot 1 group of 5 at 25 yards off the bench to determine accuracy nodes as I work up a load. When fine tuning I'll shoot 5 groups of 5 at 25 yards with the same load. My target will look like a grid with 3" target dots. When a final load is selected ill step out to 50 yards. I keep notes along the way.

When using a rest I typically have my butt of the gun on a bag and the barrel on a rest up against the frame. Don't know if right or wrong but this is how I do things

[ole 5 hole group]

Well Andy, shooting 5-shots into a 1.8" group at 25 yards off-hand with an 80 series combat commander is no small feat. There are not many competitors able to consistently accomplish that with their well set-up 1911's.

If you're not sure whether it was just luck or skill - shoot a couple more groups at 25 yards off-hand and that will tell the story.

A true measure of a tack-driving 1911 is done at 50 yards shot from a rest using 10-shots. All rounds should be within a 3" group. Now for a 1911 to be truly a tack-driver for a high master classified NRA bullseye shooter - those 10-rounds should fall within a 1.5" group or smaller.

1911's fitting that description are usually high-end pistols costing around 2 grand or more. Our best military shooters possess 1911's that shoot right at an inch or a tad under and there's not many of those in existence.

When shooting off a bench, just be consistent with your placement of the dust cover on the bag, keep the butt off anything solid and maintain a consistent grip from shot to shot. I push the trigger guard into the bag, my off-hand holding the pistol rests on a palm bag (smaller bag with sand), firm grip and then it's just control your breathing, perfect sight alignment and squeeze.

[NVScouter]

All touching at 50y. Small game head shots and big game capability.

Now in Ruger Only loads they need to do that and Connect to 150y on a paper plate. Plus have the energy and boolit style to be effective.

[NVScouter]

For me, it's 2" or less at 50 yards benched. Off hand it's 2" at 25 yards. To ME that constitutes excellent accuracy. I like to shoot 1 group of 5 at 25 yards off the bench to determine accuracy nodes as I work up a load. When fine tuning I'll shoot 5 groups of 5 at 25 yards with the same load. My target will look like a grid with 3" target dots. When a final load is selected ill step out to 50 yards. I keep notes along the way.

When using a rest I typically have my butt of the gun on a bag and the barrel on a rest up against the frame. Don't know if right or wrong but this is how I do things

The load being accurate and you being accurate are differt things. I don't change my load if I can't hit offhand but drive nails at the bench. That's like blaming the dog when you miss a duck��

[DougGuy]

NVScouter, OP is shooting a 1911, not a wheelgun..

[22cf45]

Andy
Ole 5 Hole Group has pretty much said all that needs to be said and he is right on. I am a NRA bullseye competitor for 30+ years and I'll bet he know his way around the range. When trying to determine what load combination to use, I want to make it all about the pistol and ammunition. I use a Ransom Rest but if you don't have access to one, you can get by using a rest. While its nice to have a good group at 25 yards, the real story comes out at 50 yards with 10 shot groups. My particular pistols shoot 10 round 50 yard groups either side of 2" out of the RR not my hand and they have had a lot of work to get there.

If you don't want to use jacketed bullets, I would suggest you obtain some Zero 185 gr HPSWC bullets. That's what a lot of bullseye shooters use. No reason to beat yourself up with 230 grs unless you have to. Many use 3.7-4.2 grs Bullseye powder with the above mentioned Zero bullet depending on which charge your pistol likes.
Phil

[osteodoc08]

The load being accurate and you being accurate are differt things. I don't change my load if I can't hit offhand but drive nails at the bench. That's like blaming the dog when you miss a duck��
Never said I did. I'm fairly consistent on a bench and work up loads accordingly. I'll typically find a few nodes of accuracy and will go back to the reloading bench and fine tune in that area and overlap the loadings to get a bigger sample size. Once an accurate load is established it is catalogued and I will use it for whatever it's intent was, hunting, plinking, etc.

Overall im in much more efficient and accurate from a bench than I am freehand and unsupported. But you're right, if I'm having a bad day, I know for sure it's not the load! LOL.

[NVScouter]

NVScouter, OP is shooting a 1911, not a wheelgun..

not my fault he isn't shooting the right .45! Still plate ringing with autos is fun at extended ranges and target pistols make suburb small game getters.

[NVScouter]

Never said I did. I'm fairly consistent on a bench and work up loads accordingly. I'll typically find a few nodes of accuracy and will go back to the reloading bench and fine tune in that area and overlap the loadings to get a bigger sample size. Once an accurate load is established it is catalogued and I will use it for whatever it's intent was, hunting, plinking, etc.

Overall im in much more efficient and accurate from a bench than I am freehand and unsupported. But you're right, if I'm having a bad day, I know for sure it's not the load! LOL.


my post had a winking smiley face but it shows as two squares. Not sure if you got my attempt at humor or not.

[.45Cole]

This is what I have used, fire a whole mag into your tests. Use copy paper and a reference hole in the center on all. When done with a mag, record the date, load info, range, temp, recoil, blast, smoke, wind, underwear, ect. Then file the pieces of paper for reference 2, 5, 25 years down the road. If you record the conditions now, they might make a diff in the future.

Unless I needed it, I use 200gr swc at 800fps. Great accuracy, and they don't beat me up. I have a load for 230's, but it kicks more and uses more lead. You just missed two great GB's, one 452423 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?229321-MiHec-454423-brass-two-or-four-cavity-Cramer-HP-or-solid) and a 452374 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?155635-MiHec-452374-brass-four-cavity-solid-or-hollow-point&highlight=452374) styles from Miha, both have HP options and are 4cav. Miha usually makes overruns.

[Andy]

Thanks for all the replies everyone. I was able to get all the info on the load so I'm going to make some up and shoot 30-50 of them carefully and see if I can replicate it. If I don't get anything special I'll move on to another load, but if I can replicate this I gather I have a good shooter here.

[osteodoc08]

my post had a winking smiley face but it shows as two squares. Not sure if you got my attempt at humor or not.

Sorry. Should have used some purple. No offense taken at all and none meant. And I agree with your assessment. Definitely not the gun/ammo when I'm having a bad day.

A bad accuracy day at the range is much better than a good day at work.

[warboar_21]

Well with a Colt 45 I prefer a 40 oz. In a 45 Colt I try to keep my groups at 2" or less at 25yds.

[Andy]

Just an update for everyone: I was shooting some .22 through a conversion kit on this .45 frame at the range yesterday and the safety stopped working. Turns out the rear of the plunger guide is bending out of the frame and allowing the plunger to ride onto the flat side of the safety instead of being actuated by it. It appears the roll pin holding the rear end in wasn't properly riveted into the frame. Called Colt today and I'm going to send it in for repair. On a positive note, they are covering the cost of repair plus shipping each way, which is a nice plus since I bought it over 10 years ago. On a negative note, I probably won't see it back here for a few weeks so I probably won't have a range report back on the load until after thanksgiving.

Dying to know if it really shoots that well or it was just a fluke, so not happy that it broke right now but I'm at least glad that Colt stands by their product. They were extremely easy to deal with, got a human after one menu choice, knowledgeable about shipping laws, extremely knowledgeable about the weapon, friendly and fun to talk to.

[hp246]

If this is the wrong place for this post, sorry, but as a newbie here, I can't start a thread for awhile. I'm shooting both Cowboy action with .45 Colt and Wild Bunch with .45 ACP. For simplicity at the loading bench, I've been using the same 230 gr bullet backed by 5.5 grains of Trail Boss for both .45 Colt and .45 ACP. All of a sudden, Trail Boss is non-existent. I'm looking for another powder that I can do the same thing with, but most of the sites don't list the 230 gr bullet for .45 Colt. Any loads that anyone would like to share that I could accomplish both? Thanks. PS would like to keep velocity under 700 FPS out of a 5 inch barrel.

[DougGuy]

I had a 1941 production Colt made 1911 A1 slide numbered to the frame, it shot hardball into a raggedy 3" group on a 6" paper plate @25yds standing. It was the worst shooting .45 auto I have ever owned as far as accuracy goes. It was such a joy to shoot! If all of mine shoot better than that one, that just means they all are pretty dang good shooters. That is how I judge accuracy for a 1911. Not a hard test to pass. the best shooting one was a 1960s Colt Commander upper on a Caspian frame, I fitted it myself, used a Briley spherical barrel bushing, it would put everything in a 1" hole rested if I did my part. I don't expect every 1911 to do what that one does but with a little work and some quality made parts, one hole groups @25yds are very possible. For a defensive gun, an every day carry, the old 1941 Colt is plenty accurate since if you DO have to use it, shooting for groups will be the last thing you will be thinking about.

Point being, there are several different contexts that a given degree of accuracy is plenty acceptable. It has nothing at all to do with how well the gun shoots or how well a load groups. It's whatever style shooting you are doing at the time, how acceptable the accuracy will be.

If you are shooting for group to check a load, use a rest @25yds. 3" is acceptable, 2" is average for a decently made 1911, 1" is phenomenal and usually reserved for 1911s in the $2k+ range. Clean the barrel between 5 shot strings if shooting cast. Let the barrel and slide cool off after 3 strings. Use your normal two hand grip, rest your hands mostly on sandbags and let the bottom of the pistol touch down lightly. You can do 50yd strings but it's not really necessary until you get down below 2" @25yds, and you pick your best load and see what it does @50yds.

[Andy]

Final follow up here, didn't want to leave the thread hanging. I decided I wanted to try out the 200 gr SWC instead of the 230 round nose, so I never attempted to replicate that borrowed load. Once I got the gun back from Colt (great service there) I bought a lee 6 cavity and have been working on loads for that. I just shot 90 rds today for accuracy using Acc #5 and some mediocre bullets (probably what most experienced casters would call plinking rounds). All groups are 5 shot groups at 15 yards, off a bag on a bench: 1.25", 1.25", 1.5", 2", 2.75", 2.75", 4", 1.75", 1.25", .9", 2.25", 1.5", 1.5", .8". Also shot two offhand groups, 2.5", 3.75".

I'm going to try out some loads with bullseye powder and see how they compare to these.

[MtGun44]

'For 200 SWC, I recommend Lyman 452460 or H&G 68 clone (several makers have them, Lee's
version of 200 SWC is definitely not a clone, but a 'sorta-like') are top choices. IME, 460 tends
to be a touch more accurate, but this is gun-dependent. H&G 68 set up properly will be 100%
feeding reliable in any modern 1911, 452460 is similar in most guns, but there are a minority
of guns which will be less reliable at feeding with the shorter nosed shape of the 452460.

With BE, target accy is usually found in the 3.8-4.0 gr range, depending on what your gun will
function with. Full power IPSC major loads were usually at 4.8 gr. Taper crimping as a separate
operation is important. Set LOA with true H&G 68 or clone to 1.250 to 1.260, depending on the
throat, but with a Colt, start with 1.260. Use dismounted barrel as guage, loaded round should
drop freely into chamber to flush with hood, or at most 1 lb finger push.

Just a nit to pick, if it has 5" bbl it is not a Commander. Commander is 4.25" bbl with shortened
slide. Says "Commander" on the slide, so no difficulty deciding. Revolvers measure from front
of cyl to muzzle, semiautos from breech face to muzzle. So a "5 inch" revolver is more like a 7"
semiauto.

Sounds like the gun is working well, and you are shooting well. If "leading" scrubs out with
10-20 passes of a bronze brush and a few patches, it is irrelevant.

Bill

[Groo]

Groo here
That all depends...
If a target load , all touching, I would think ,is good.[at 25]
For hunting you "may" trade small groups for power, I would say , 1/2 the size if the K-zone with full up loads , as far away as you intend to shoot,
That might be 8in paper plate at 100yds with "Groo monster maulers".[ the heavy hot stuff!!!}

[Andy]

Mtngun, thanks for the correction on the pistol model, I'm just getting familiar with 1911 terminology.

Once I read up on the types I realized that this is an XSE model also, if that affects anything.

Shot some 3.8 gr bullseye loads though it and they shot well, same charge happens to be a nice plinking load in my 9mm so that is convenient, one setting on the powder measure. Was only getting about 650fps out of it and I've read that you want to be in the 700-750 fps range (any thoughts on this?) so I loaded up some 3.9 and 4.0 rounds to try out as well. The bullseye seemed to hold closer groups than the Acc. #5 loads, but I have a lot of other variables going on right now so I can't say that conclusively.

[Andy]

Small update here. I'm getting 700-730 fps from 4.0 of bullseye, good accuracy and a really clean barrel. I'm pretty happy with that charge so far and like the recoil level that 4.0 gives in the 9mm as well, so for the time being I think I'll play around with that. Hard to shoot accurately with this weather/bundled up clothing but when everything feels right I'm getting 5 shot groups at 15yds where all are touching. That's nothing special, but leads me to think the load is fine and the rest is me.

I had 2 "failure to fully chamber" situations out of 50 with the 3.8 charge and only one with the 4.0 charge. Not a huge test basis but it gives a margin of error for reliability as well.

Bumped up my COAL to 1.250 (I think I was at 1.225-1.230 before) and that had no ill effects: rounds still drop fully into chamber and reliability was better.

[35remington]

Most SWC's of target shape perform best when approximating target velocities, especially if said shape is similar to that of the short nosed 185 target factory loads. These do around 775 fps or so but your 730 fps range is still considered correct for good results.