Messing with the Snider carbine Tuesday

[Buckshot]

....................I'm all ready for tomorrow to do some testing with the Snider:

http://www.fototime.com/AD10AA21E7DA774/standard.jpg

Have 31 of'em loaded up of 5 each with different configurations. That lone 1 has 100grs of 1Fg! They all sport .603" RB's. Last attempt was with them cast of pure lead. This time they're WW alloy. The main charge in them is Goex 1Fg. Some have "Active Filler" and some just plain COW.

The Snider is supposed to be fond of lube. Each load has at least .250" wad of lube under the slug. After being loaded they were twice dipped in lube. More is better, eh? Hope I don't hurt myself, ha!

.................Buckshot

[Jon K]

I gotta see this...............woo-hoo lots o smoke..........

Jon

[StrawHat]

If this works are you thinking of a short bullet to try?

I can see it now, a group buy for the 58 Collar button!

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc194/StrawHat/CollarButton.gif

Enjoy the smoke.

[dromia]

Now I'd be up for a .590" collar button, Sniders and plinking.

I like that idea.:-D

[Boz330]

Buckshot, have you ever tried a Lee REAL in the Snider? As short as it is, it might work pretty good. They actually shoot better out of my 2 band musket than the Minnies. Have fun.

Bob

[45 2.1]

Now I'd be up for a .590" collar button, Sniders and plinking.

I like that idea.:-D

It would look like this and have a 0.590" diameter @ 330 gr.

[bc3660]

I want one!!!!!! Still waitin on my mold from another site. But it should be on its way soon :-D Steve

[AkMike]

That collar button would be a dandy plinker! I want one!!!

[Andy_P]

These guns are a load of fun. I've shot a 54 cal Minie in a 24 gauge shot cup - acts like a sabot. 24 gauge plastic hulls, if kept to very low pressure (<10K psi), can be used 2-3 times. No dies needed, just trim to length, load and shoot.

[Red River Rick]

Something very similar. 335 - 350 grainers, 590 Diameter.

[shooter575]

Looks a lot like a slightly shorter version of Greg Edingtons Wilkinson
compression Bullet.I have one of his early versions that were made as a custom Lee
set up.I have his Iron 2 cavity one comming.Dang thing is the easyest .58 conical
I have ever tried.Bucks the wind good.Will shoot higher POA than any other minne I
have tried.
Here is a link to s BB thread with info.

http://www.civilwarguns.com/board/viewtopic.php?id=1&t_id=5

[Buckshot]

................I need to take photo's of the targets I shot Tuesday. Some were down in the .3's ............ha! Not! But were actually a couple were some of the best ever. I had 31 cases and that one extra case had been loaded with 100grs of Goex 1Fg, COW and the 0.600" RB. It still remains intact as I couldn't bring myself to shoot it:bigsmyl2: Maybe next time?

One load really surprised me as it was one of the most accurate. It was 15.0grs of Goex 3Fg and then 50.0 grs of Goex 1Fg. Then 2 cardwads and fill to about 1.00" of the casemouth with lube, seat and crimp the ball in place. There were 2 memorable loads which had the little carbine lifting itself up off the bags and rearing back pretty stong. A bit startling to say the least!

We were walking out at the line break and Glen, who was 2 benches away started groaning that I'd messed up an unused target of his. I walked over to him and he pointed at a big glob of grease and the cardwad stuck to it :-) Yup, one of mine! All the guys were giving me gas, hacking and coughing like the BP smoke was going to kill'em or something. Now had it been that acrid terrible Pyro-Dex I might have felt bad about it, ha.

................Buckshot

[KCSO]

Pyrodex, Oooh, so that's what that awfull smell is... Sort of like John Wayne in Big Jake?

So what IS a good group from a Snider? Will it hold say 2" at 50 yards? And send pictures, please!

[Buckshot]

................There are Sniders and then there are Sniders. Best and most accurate are those sporting the 5 groove 48" twist barrels. Otherwise you have the original 1853 muzzle loader barrels made to screw onto the Snider action, and these are 3 groove with a 78" twist. The later are the ones I have. A carbine (cut down 3 band) and a 3 band rifle.

Issues with getting really good accuracy is with today's drawn brass cases. They hold so much more powder then the old carboard tube interior and exterior foil wrapped Boxer type 3 piece cases. Another issue halso has to do with the old foil cases. That is that as rule military chambers have been always normally a bit generous in consideration of battlefield conditions. Add to that that the Snider was at the very dawn of the use of cartidges, and the whole concept was brand new unplowed ground. The Snider chambers (with those handmade foil cases) and other things in mind tend toward the casual.

There are Sniders' that will do 2" at 50 yards and (a military) one that does is a treasure. Civilian sporters are much more apt to be pretty decent shooters. Also in addition to all the bove is the fact that the barrels ahd progressive depth grooves, naturally deeper at the breech end. The grooves ahead of the chamber go about .013" deep. In a muzzle loader with the Minie' sitting there in the barrel ahead of the powder charge, the skirts upset into the grooves at ignition.

Same situation with the Snider except the Minie' or round ball is inside a caseneck that's in the chamber. Lot's of chambers won't accept a cartridge loaded with a .600+" Minie' or RB. Since with BP all the upset take place at ignition and at no time later, the projectile may not take the rifling well. Well as in fully, or in alignment.

So to be able to place 5 shots inside a 6" circle at 50 yards can be cause for much rejoicing :-) In my most recent attempt as I mentioned, I cast the 60 cal RB's of WW vs soft lead. I experienced 3-4 shots that fell within maybe 4", and maybe a target with 3-4 shots a trifle bit smaller. But no 5 shot loading had all 5 do that well.

Playing with a Snider may be a kind of simple Joie de vivre.

..................Buckshot

[remi1100]

Hi
Im new to this forum, but look in many times,like bc3660 im waiting for a snyder mould from anouther forum wont be long now.
I like the look of the coller button in .590 and would like one if you ordering any.
Thanks Robert

[Red River Rick]

So what IS a good group from a Snider? Will it hold say 2" at 50 yards?

KCSO:

How about 2" at 100 yards. I have a few scanned images taken from an article written in the "American Rifleman / Feb. 1979". There is some very interesting info in this article that some members may want to read.

I've forwarded these scans to "45Nut", hopefully he will be able to insert these scans into this post.

RRR

[45nut]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/45nut/snider3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/45nut/snider2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/45nut/snider1.jpg


Let's see how well this works...

[Buckshot]

...............I have a couple articles on shooting the Snider and you can get some REALLY good results from one. However it's kind of the same deal as making a really accurate shooter out of the Ruger 10-22. In both instances the first thing you do is sh*tcan the original barrel and replace it with one having a match chamber.

If you go with a barrel of at least a 48" twist, wide grooves with half width lands, and then most importantly have a chamber that is cut with drawn brass cases in mind, you'll really have something. I have a large ring Greener Martini shotgun action and 2 spare MkII** Snider actions with the idea of using them for couple things based on the 577 case.

http://www.thegunworks.com/GunIndex.cfm will supply barrels with your desired bore, groove, and twist. I don't think they'll do a custon rifling pattern though. Probably equal width lands and grooves.

................Buckshot

[StrawHat]

Buckshot,

Okay, post #3 was placed as a joke.

Now it has grown legs and started to run!

I could not find a 58 caliber barrel on the site you linked, but I did not look too hard.

I have a couple of old Douglas ML barrels in 58, I guess I need to figure what twist they have.

Don't have any (let alone a couple) Snider actions laying around. I do have a Navy Arms rolling block I had planned on reworking to 50-70, wonder if it could go to 577 Snider.

Dies, sizers, hmmm, what else do I need

[Buckshot]

................All shot at 50 yards benched. Not those not familiar with 'Active Filler' it was developed on the British and Militaria forums, and is a 50-50 mix of 2fg BP and COW. All targets had 5 rounds fired at them, whether you see 5 holes or not :-). Cartridge cases were all Mag-Tech brass shotgun shells trimmed to length and altered to accept 209 primers.

http://www.fototime.com/16A68280BE50598/standard.jpg

10gr SR4759
70.0gr Goex 1Fg vibrated down & .200" compression on cardwad, then 2.2cc COW and another carwad with .150" compression. Melted lube pour in and a .603" RB seated and crimped.

http://www.fototime.com/6B7DDA0EB79A324/standard.jpg

70 gr Goex 1Fg, vibrated down, 3.1 CC Active filler, cardwad and .250" compression. Lube and Rb seated and crimped

http://www.fototime.com/AA6F004C2EB48EC/standard.jpg

20.0gr Goex 3Fg
70.0 Goex 1Fg, Vibrated down, cardwad, COW, cardwad and .150" compression, lube and RB seated and crimped.

http://www.fototime.com/F1C403E4AE88060/standard.jpg

70.0gr Goex 1Fg Vibrated down.
3.1cc Active filler, cardwad, compressed.
1.6cc COW, cardwad, compressed .300", lube and RB seated and crimped.
One of the boolit holes to the left belong to the group fired above or below it. I don't remember now which.

http://www.fototime.com/DF481E977178D95/standard.jpg

50.0gr Goex 1Fg vibrated down
4.3cc Active Filler, cardwad, 1.6cc COW, cardwad, Compressed .200"
Lube and RB seated and crimped

http://www.fototime.com/AAA154F8ADB8308/standard.jpg

15.0gr Goex 3Fg
50.0gr Goex 1Fg vibrated down, cardwad
Fill with COW to casemouth cardwad, and compress .360"
Lube and RB seated and crimped.

http://www.fototime.com/35572699B1D8361/standard.jpg

The little begger that supplied all the punishment.

All except groups 3 and 5 show promise. Group 4 & 6 are actually about the best ever shot. I have no idea how to refine the loads, or what direction to take in hopes of improving accuracy further.

................Buckshot

[45 2.1]

I have no idea how to refine the loads, or what direction to take in hopes of improving accuracy further.
................Buckshot

Your RB, even crimped is too light to start a consistent burn with that slow BP. Try putting some ground corn cob between the powder and the ball. Start low and increase the volume a little at a time. GCC grabs the case wall and stretches cases if too much is used. It will also retard the ball and cause the powder to burn better.

[Mayor]

Howdy

Fellow Snider owner here with a question:

What are you using for a front sight? Mine shoots about three feet high at 50 yards and the info I have gleand from the snider/enfield forum points to this being the norm. Are you aiming elsewhere to hit the target (like at a target pasted in a much lower spot)?

[Buckshot]

Howdy

Fellow Snider owner here with a question:

What are you using for a front sight? Mine shoots about three feet high at 50 yards and the info I have gleand from the snider/enfield forum points to this being the norm. Are you aiming elsewhere to hit the target (like at a target pasted in a much lower spot)?

............AH! You noticed :-) That's an old photo. It now has a dovetailed base soldered to the barrel and a Lyman blade in it now. Using a 'try' (clip and file) front sight hose clamped to the barrel I determined I needed a sight height of .480". That is, with the rear sight flat on it's bed and the front at 6 o'clock of the bull I can hit centerbull.

I should take a picture of it.

................45 2.1. "Your RB, even crimped is too light to start a consistent burn with that slow BP. Try putting some ground corn cob between the powder and the ball. Start low and increase the volume a little at a time. GCC grabs the case wall and stretches cases if too much is used. It will also retard the ball and cause the powder to burn better."

You mean put some GCC over the COW? That, "Start low and increase the volume a little at a time" part has me stumped if you mean something else.

BTW, I need to recheck my previous work with Swiss 1-1/2Fg and this RB cast of WW alloy. Would definetly be faster then the 1Fg Goex!

....................Buckshot

[45 2.1]

.. You mean put some GCC over the COW? That, "Start low and increase the volume a little at a time" part has me stumped if you mean something else.
....................Buckshot

No COW at all, replace it with GCC. All fillers have different properties in relation to what they do when fired. The GCC will provide more resistance to help the BP burn correctly.