2F or 3F in a 50

[Longone]

So I ask you, when you are shooting a 50 cal ( I have a Hawken) do you use FF or FFF when using a .490 ball? And while we are at it how about a REAL boolit? Now mind you I am only shooting paper @ 50 and 100 yds.

Thanks, Longone

[oldracer]

I use Goex FFG for everything. At our monthly matches I see shooters using both FFG and FFFG so I guess it is a matter of preference? If you buy it local that can also determine what you can get but I get mine mail order and want to reduce any chances of confusion.

[daschnoz]

70gr of 3f under 0.490" PRB, 4f in the pan.

[**oneshot**]

I'm with daschnoz! 70gr 3f under 490PRB or 350gr TC hunter slug. Mine is in a Lyman Deerstalker.

[gandydancer]

I use both at times 3F in 32 cal & 43" barreled 50 cal Bench gun & 2F in my 54's. anyone been working with any old Eysnford powder? I understand it burns cleaner? going to try it my self soon. :mrgreen:

[dlbarr]

Supposedly, .50 cal is the line of differentiation for use of 2fg & 3fg powder. i.e., 3fg for <.50, 2fg for >.50

My personal experience is you can use either with .50 and both work well, you just have to figure out your load (like with every other caliber of firearm you ever shoot).

[725]

I've seen FFg & FFFg used in just about everything. My rules, I use FFg for .50 and up and FFFg for less than .50. Care should be observed when using FFFg in the larger calibers. Faster powder / quicker pressure.

[doc1876]

I use 3f in everything. I have less fouling with it, however I have heard from others just the opposite. confusing? yes.

[waksupi]

3 F for everything round ball. The old recommendation was for generally better quality powder than we get now.

[Plastikosmd]

Either, depends on gun. Try many combos to see what works, that is the fun

[Longone]

I bought this flint gun back in 1994 as a kit, after I put it together off to the range I went. First shot on paper at 100 yds............great!!!
Second shot pretty good as well, went to load the third ball and you would have thought I was trying to push the earth off it axis. The third shot was off the paper GREAT, start brushing and running some Bore Butter down the bore, 4th shot not as good as the first or second but it was on paper. It got worse from there, again.
That was enough of black powder for me, cleaned the gun when I got home and put it in the safe. two weeks ago a friend says lets go shoot some black powder, I knew what was coming but I said OK anyway. I was struggling trying to get the ball down the bore and keep it on paper and he's next to me whistling away shooting one after another not cleaning the bore and actually shooting some good groups.
Well the bottom line is he was shooting Goex powder and I had Elephant brand powder, he said here try some of this and it was like the sky had cleared and the storm was gone.
Loading this rifle now is a breeze and it actually groups pretty well at 100 with a lead ball. So when I found a local place that sold BP the guy said you need FFF not FF and I mentioned that the T/C book that came with the rifle says FF, so I guess I'll be swinging by and picking up a lb. of FFF.
Oh, and I'm going to need another box of balls too cause most of them are now in the dirt. I would never had thought that one brand of BP could be so nasty dirty, now I know why they are out of business.

Longone

[Longone]

Also meant to ask if anyone was using the Swiss BP and your thoughts on it VS. Goex?

Longone

[Newtire]

I bought this flint gun back in 1994 as a kit, after I put it together off to the range I went. First shot on paper at 100 yds............great!!!
Second shot pretty good as well, went to load the third ball and you would have thought I was trying to push the earth off it axis. The third shot was off the paper GREAT, start brushing and running some Bore Butter down the bore, 4th shot not as good as the first or second but it was on paper. It got worse from there, again.
That was enough of black powder for me, cleaned the gun when I got home and put it in the safe. two weeks ago a friend says lets go shoot some black powder, I knew what was coming but I said OK anyway. I was struggling trying to get the ball down the bore and keep it on paper and he's next to me whistling away shooting one after another not cleaning the bore and actually shooting some good groups.
Well the bottom line is he was shooting Goex powder and I had Elephant brand powder, he said here try some of this and it was like the sky had cleared and the storm was gone.
Loading this rifle now is a breeze and it actually groups pretty well at 100 with a lead ball. So when I found a local place that sold BP the guy said you need FFF not FF and I mentioned that the T/C book that came with the rifle says FF, so I guess I'll be swinging by and picking up a lb. of FFF.
Oh, and I'm going to need another box of balls too cause most of them are now in the dirt. I would never had thought that one brand of BP could be so nasty dirty, now I know why they are out of business.

LongoneI bought a can of that elephant powder and mine jammed up on the 2nd shot. I think I'll make some firecrackers out of the rest. Now am hooked on Triple-7. Pyrodex will probably get used up in my shotguns.

[waksupi]

I bought this flint gun back in 1994 as a kit, after I put it together off to the range I went. First shot on paper at 100 yds............great!!!
Second shot pretty good as well, went to load the third ball and you would have thought I was trying to push the earth off it axis. The third shot was off the paper GREAT, start brushing and running some Bore Butter down the bore, 4th shot not as good as the first or second but it was on paper. It got worse from there, again.
That was enough of black powder for me, cleaned the gun when I got home and put it in the safe. two weeks ago a friend says lets go shoot some black powder, I knew what was coming but I said OK anyway. I was struggling trying to get the ball down the bore and keep it on paper and he's next to me whistling away shooting one after another not cleaning the bore and actually shooting some good groups.
Well the bottom line is he was shooting Goex powder and I had Elephant brand powder, he said here try some of this and it was like the sky had cleared and the storm was gone.
Loading this rifle now is a breeze and it actually groups pretty well at 100 with a lead ball. So when I found a local place that sold BP the guy said you need FFF not FF and I mentioned that the T/C book that came with the rifle says FF, so I guess I'll be swinging by and picking up a lb. of FFF.
Oh, and I'm going to need another box of balls too cause most of them are now in the dirt. I would never had thought that one brand of BP could be so nasty dirty, now I know why they are out of business.

Longone

I tried Bore Butter, and got serious bore fouling every time. I stick with Moose Milk, and can shoot all day with the same bore condition.
I shot up two or three cases of Elephant, had less fouling than GOEX, and very good accuracy.
Try using Bore Butter in cold weather, you are going to find you can't load after about three rounds.

[shdwlkr]

The rule an old muzzle loader gave me is to use 10-15% less 3f in .50 caliber and larger has worked for me for over 40 years so I guess he knew something. I also use ww lead for my round balls in my muzzle loaders same old gentleman tipped to this little deal. For maxi balls or maxi hunter projectiles they are as close to pure lead as I can get.
That 10-15% is charge amount, example if you are going to use say 80 grains of 2f and want to use 3f the charge would be 70-68 grains.

[mooman76]

Everything in your load will effect your shooting different ways. Yours could have been the combo of BB and Elephant powder. Someone else may have better luck in another gun with the same combination or the same using less fouling. heavier charges generally foul more. BB is not my favorite lube but I use it sometimes because I have it and it's handy. I generally have to swab every few shots when I use BB or accuracy falls off quick. Point is, it is unfair to say any one thing is bad or to blame. One of these days I will have to make a batch of Moose milk to give it a try. Generally I use spit patch.

[Maven]

"I tried Bore Butter, and got serious bore fouling every time. I stick with Moose Milk, and can shoot all day with the same bore condition." ...Waksupi

Amen to this!

[Newtire]

Everything in your load will effect your shooting different ways. Yours could have been the combo of BB and Elephant powder. Point is, it is unfair to say any one thing is bad or to blame. One of these days I will have to make a batch of Moose milk to give it a try. Generally I use spit patch.I made up some Moose Milk a long time ago but haven't used any since I moved. That was good stuff. Sta-lube brand soluble oil and water was all it was and worked great. I was using bore butter as a matter of fact. I'll give it a try with Moose Milk and see.

[Longone]

I picked up some Ballistol and a friend let me try some of Mr. Flintlock. MF worked very well for me compared to BB, but with all the problems I experienced anything would have been an improvement.
I am going to mix up some Ballistol and try that next time out, I'm trying not to change but one thing at a time.

Longone

[Doc Highwall]

I use 3F for lighter target loads and 2F for heavier hunting loads with conical bullets.

[snoopy]

Not an experienced shooter here, but I use 3f in everything, including .54

[fouronesix]

I shoot muzzleloaders from 45 through 69 calibers. I try both FF and FFF blackpowder in most all when working up the most accurate load and use the powder and load that is the most accurate. However, during this testing I've found that is FF is usually a little cleaner than FFF.

[bob208]

i shoot 50 gr 3f in my lyman gpr with patch round ball. won many 25 and 50 yd, matches with it went to 55 gr 3f for 100 yd.

[DIRT Farmer]

The first batch of Elephant powder that came into the country burned like Sam's club charcoal in my guns. I had bought a case of it and burned it up in shotguns. After the first batch it was very good powder but the damage to their reputation was done. The only ones who would shoot it were shotgun shooters looking for the cheapest powder out there and a few who tryed it and found the following batches were good.
When I was shooting mostly caplock shotguns I went through phases where I shot ffg for a while then would shoot fffg. I found that I could get better than a year from a set of nipples with ffg, but had to replace them beforethe Fall match schedule started. More pressure, more erosion to the nipple.

[waksupi]

I had one bad lot of Elephant. It had been very good in the previous case, but the new case just plain wouldn't shoot. In one of my most accurate rifles, it wouldn't stay in six inches at 25 yards. I called Petrochemical, and they had another case coming free of charge that day. They advised lawn fertilizer. We used it in salute cannons on the 4th of July.

[waksupi]

I shoot muzzleloaders from 45 through 69 calibers. I try both FF and FFF blackpowder in most all when working up the most accurate load and use the powder and load that is the most accurate. However, during this testing I've found that is FF is usually a little cleaner than FFF.

That should be opposite in my observation.

[Longone]

That should be opposite in my observation.
Yea, I think one F too many in the wrong place.

[rodwha]

I use 3F in my .50 cal rifle mostly because I don't want to require several powder flasks, especially when hunting, and so my .44/.45 cal pistols NEED 3F.

I use Olde Eynsford or Triple 7 powders, and 70 grns seems to be the ticket with a .490" RB and 0.016" pillow ticking patch. It also showed great promise with the 320 grn REALs I shot, also with 70 grns of powder.

Instead of considering Swiss try Olde Eynsford. It performs on the same level as Swiss and Triple 7 but is far cheaper and made by Goex to compete with Swiss.

Olde E is certainly cleaner the Pyrodex, but what isn't? I hate that stuff!

[fouronesix]

So I ask you, when you are shooting a 50 cal ( I have a Hawken) do you use FF or FFF when using a .490 ball? And while we are at it how about a REAL boolit? Now mind you I am only shooting paper @ 50 and 100 yds.

Thanks, Longone

If you have pre-conceived notions or simply like to parrot a mantra, why ask this type question in the first place.

[fouronesix]

That should be opposite in my observation.

And that should be opposite in my observation.

[Longone]

If you have pre-conceived notions or simply like to parrot a mantra, why ask this type question in the first place.

If that is something that you find offensive I suggest you take a walk away from you computer and go outside and take in some fresh air.
Get a grip, life is too short.

Longone

[Boogieman]

.I've used both in 50&54 cal. 2f worked better in faster twists(1-48 in) . 3f burned cleaner in 1-60 & slower. In my TC Hawken with Green Mountain barrel ( 1-70 twist) 55gr. of 3f=80gr. of 2f.

[koehlerrk]

Well, my dad's been burning charcoal longer than I've been alive, and he always used FFF Goex in his 45 and his 54. Never had an issue with either, and I've seen him hit deer at a measured 300+ yards with the 54.

Myself, I use FFF Goex in my 50 Hawkin and 99 times out of 100, the gun shoots better than I can.

[Longone]

I will try some out tomorrow. I cast some lead balls and a minnie from Lee and will light them off with FFF. Also found a Lyman muzzle loading handbook at a G/S and they list FFF for every conceviable combination out there. It's gonna be a smoke filled day.

Longone

[Tar Heel]

Not to sound absolutely absurd here but have you read the owners manual? I'll bet there are suggested loads in it.

[Fly]

3 fffG in everything.
Fly

[TCLouis]

I shoot FFFG in everything I own including the 54s.

I have a bunch of FFG I need to get shed of, so I guess this is going to be the year of FFG powder behind everything including the 50 cal. Scout Pistola. I even plan to run it in the 45 where I am going to try the 255 grain 45 Long Colt boolit. Yes barrel is that oversized. Did get some 0.451 RBs and a mold to make more of the same. Plan is to use that boolit to make it into a 45-60 "Light".

I have Elephant and Goex and really find the only difference is the Elephant seems to be a bit "weaker".

[longbow]

I'm with the FFFG crowd. I don't shoot much black any more and all I have right now is FFFG. When I did shoot a lot though I used mostly FFFG in everything up to 12 ga.

I tried FFg in muzzleloading rifles of .45 and .58 cal. and 12 ga., and in my .45-70 with standard weight boolits of 385 to 405 grs. I found I got less fouling and better trajectory using FFFG so stuck with it. If I recall, the FFG I tried was Curtis and Harvey if that makes a difference. According to the Lyman Black Powder Reloading Manual it takes more Curtis and Harvey than G-O with any given ball or boolit to reach the same velocity. Regardless, I always had better results using FFFG.

Longbow

[OverMax]

Preference in powder choices. 2-FFG verses 3-FFFG for rifle. It's what you get use too using.

[Longone]

Not to sound absolutely absurd here but have you read the owners manual? I'll bet there are suggested loads in it.

Yes sir I have, T/C manual only powder listed is FF. It's when I went to a gun store that the clerk mentioned folks at his club were very fond of FFF, that's what prompted the question for me to see what other folks were partial to.

Longone

[Tar Heel]

Yup...just ask yourself why GOEX and all the others make FFG & FFFG when producing just one or the other would make more sense to an industrialist. For gray beards, rule of thumb is <45 caliber is FFFG and >44 caliber is FFG. Most of the older owners manuals indicated that too. I haven't seen one of the newer owners manuals so I am not sure what they say. Black Powder Instructor literature also holds with the above. Ultimately I would use what's on-hand if you can only get one or the other but if I had a choice, I would default to what the provided literature calls for. There are some pretty good reasons they call for what they do.

Probably won't be too much longer until all we have are "pellets" or "tubes" of propellant at 3x the cost. That stuff is all the rage with the new-age BP guns.

[shdwlkr]

The reason that 2F powder is used in the manuals is because that was the old standard in 54 and larger caliber muzzle loaders. Then some creative types realized that if you can't get 2F what is now the powder of choice. Logic was that 3F was the next and they worked out that 10-15% less 3F powder gave the same results fps wise and then it was noticed it also burned better leaving less fowling.
You are correct no manual that I have seen recomends this change in powder or charge rate but it has been used for over 30 years that I know of and if there was something wrong with 3F powder in the large muzzle loaders it would have surely come to light by now.

Just like the idea that you have to shoot pure lead round balls in a muzzle loader. I know and do it myself use ww lead as the patching material is what engages the rifling to some extent and have seen no real issues with using ww lead balls. I have even used Hornady buckshot if the size is right in my muzzle loaders adjusting the patching material as needed.

Shooting black powder is an experiment that we know some of the results because of the long history of its use, but even that is controlled by the steel in the barrel, the length of the barrel, the twist, the patching, the powder, the ball, weather, etc.

Just saying that you have to use 2F in calibers larger than 45 or 50 caliber really hasn't answered the question. One has to go and seek out those who have been using what you are using for decades and see what results the real world has been getting, what is being done in the real world and go from there. If you want to be really safe then use 3F in everything below 50 caliber and 2F everything above. the only exception I can think of is that 4F is really only used in flintlocks, but even that has an exception with one muzzle loading firearm that I can think off and you can use it in that as the primary charge up to 40 grains even.

[Rick Hodges]

3f in 50 and 54 for me.

[Longone]

I did get to the range on Mon. and used 3F exclusively, 50 grains to be exact. My best group was 2"x1" @ 100 yards 4 shot group. This was with lead balls I cast from a Lee mold and using a pillow ticking .018" thick patch. My intention is to take that ball and patch combination and increase the powder charge to see when the group opens up, then I plan to go back to 2F and take the same patch and ball combination and do the same.
During the day I probably shot between 40 to 50 shots, I ran a single patch of Bore Butter down the bore one time and saw no significant fouling so I just continued shooting and smiling.

I must say, now I have distanced myself from that Elephant powder that caused me so much headache this black powder stuff is a ball. Pun intended.

Longone

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

I am using 3fg in my 45s and50s , with speed juice and diamondback (new elephant) and doing fine

[scattershot]

As has been stated, either will work. Personally, I use fffG with target loads (roundball) in .50 and below, and ffG in 50 and above with bullets in the 50 and balls or bullets in the larger calibers. I also use and like Bore Butter, but you can't deviate from it. Clean with windshield washer fluid, or plain water, season the bore with Bore Butter, and be happy. The point is to never use petroleum products in a muzzlestuffer.

good luck!

[dondiego]

I use petroleum products to protect the bore after properly cleaning with water based solvents and have been doing so for almost 50 years. No problems.

[doc1876]

ah, the pratfalls and pitfalls of black. I hope you are not a real addictive type of personality, as you have just unleashed the Giant.

Btw, when I said I use 3f in everything, I shoot .36- .75, and the only other I use is 4f in the pan.

[smilin jack]

Use Goex 3fff in 50 Lyman GP. It likes 70 grains with PRB.

Use Goex 3fff in 58 Navy Arms Hawken Hunter. It likes 120 grains with a greased 5776111 Minnie. Knocks down Big Game very well.

The 3fff seems to burn much cleaner than 2ff and lights off better in nasty cold hunting weather. The safety thing is to reduce your charge with the finer granulation of powder.

Dave

[Hanshi]

I don't like formulas for anything to do with BP shooting. So, regardless of caliber, I shoot 3F in everything from .32 to .62 and prime with 4F. Keeps everything simple. Have experimented with 2F in the .62 but the results were inconclusive.

[Zouave 58]

I use Swiss in all my guns these days; I find Swiss 1F burns about like 2F Goex, 2F Swiss like 3F. Swiss seems to have more energy so I find I need to back off my loads by about 10% over Goex. It fouls less than Goex but the fouling is dryer. The powder is very uniform without the "finds" you get with Goex. I guess I prefer it over Goex and it does give appreciatively better accuracy in my rifles. In regards to the 2F/3F question, I've found over the years that individual rifles will prefer one or the other and the only way to tell is to work up an accuracy load to see which one preforms better. Rifles are like beautiful woman, you have to take a lot of time to figure them out. And considering that every component change you make has to be thoroughly tested out, one can truthfully say that you can shoot a rifle for years without ever fully exploring all of its accuracy potential. Of course, by the time you really begin to figure it out the bore at the muzzle starts to wear an your accuracy goes to pot. That's life!

Old guys are more likely to forget stuff