Wet tumbler formulas

[TheGameMaster]

Got my horbour frieght duel tub tumbler and some steel pins on order. Now to the question of what formula for the liquid. The youtubers formula is 1/4 teaspoon of powder Lemi-Shine dishwasher additive, and a teaspoon of Dawn per gallion. Or for my small tumbler, a sprinkle of Lemi-Shine and a squirt of Dawn. One writer said to use Electrasol and whatever cheap liquid soap you have. One writer said to use simple green at 10 to one and a dash of Dawn. Others say simple green is a no no for the brass life. One guy just used the liquid formula and no pins. Another guy uses ceramic media from harbiur frieght and just water. So, what do you use for wet formula?

Rodney

[Nueces]

I've used the Thumler's Model B High Speed tumbler for some years now. Most often it's used to clean cowboy 45 Colt cases, which tend to be sooty. But I've also rehabilitated filthy, cruddy black powder cases for friends, all with the same protocol. Which is, decapped cases and one hour with Dawn and LemiShine, followed by a change of water (room temperature, not hot) and two hours replacing the Dawn with a glug of Armorall Wash & Wax liquid. The Armorall seems to leave a micro coat of hard wax (undetectable by feel or appearance) that retards tarnishing. Cases emerge brilliantly clean and shiny, inside and out.

Now, to be sure, really nasty cases may take two cycles with the Dawn and have been left overnight in either Dawn or the Armorall to get the last of the grunge.

[Bayou52]

I also use a Thumlers model B tumbler. I also use 1/4 TSP Lemi-Shine and have also substituted auto wash & wax for Dawn. The wash & wax definitely impedes the return of tarnish yet cleans just as good as Dawn.

For brasses that are only slightly to moderately tarnished, tumbling for 1-2 hours should do it. For heavily tarnished brass, tumbling for 4 hours is the sweet spot. I only use cold tap water for tumbling and rinsing.

I use a rotary media separator to separate the pins after tumbling. I dry the brasses by "spin drying" in the media separator.

Results are nothing less than spectacular.

Bayou52

[TheGameMaster]

LemiShine is supposed to be mostly citric acid. Thats regular old cheap rx vitamin C. Couldn't one just use a cheap vitamin tablit? One of the writers says he uses an asprin tablit and nu shine with the dawn. I wonder what effect asprin would have on brass??

[Nueces]

Wouldn't be a pain in the brass to find out....

[RP]

I use the critic acid out of the canning selection a couple of bucks for a bottle and it goes along ways. I also use dawn or laundry detergent had some my wife did not like so I tried it out worked fine. My thinking is the soap is for the oil grease the critic acid is for the tarnish and shine. SS pins are the scrubber and the water is the rinse agent.
I run mine around a hour and rinse well if not the brass will spot if I let it air dry. If I do not want to let it air dry I just remove as much water as I can and then toss them in the vib tumbler with some walnut and run it about 5 mins the media sucks up the water and the brass goes into a ammo can until it time to reload. I have also use spent primers to clean brass but I would only use it on cases with large mouths or they will jam up in the necks draw back is some primers will find there way back into the pockets.

[geargnasher]

Most of the toobers and even the folks at SSTM are a little off base in my opinion. You can't really use too much citric acid IF you use rainwater or distilled water. What you CAN use too much of is detergent. I think SSTM recommended 1/4 teaspoon Lemi-Shine and two TABLESPOONS Dawn concentrated dishwashing liquid, which is enough to do about 200 sinkfulls of dishes and foams to buggary in the tumbler. I use a teaspoon or maybe a little more Lemi-Shine (measured Justin Wilson style) and a "squirt" of Dawn or Lemon Joy amounting to about half a teaspoon. The object is to have just a few suds visible when you open the tumbler back up, the purpose is to be a surfacant and adding more is pointless and makes rinsing a pain.

For a sealant, I use a liquid automotive wax and distilled water as a rinse. The media separator SSTM sells (similar to a cob separator sold by FA, RCBS, etc.) is convenient for this as I just fill the tub up with a weak water/wax solution and tumble away to get the pins out.

Another tip, if your brass is really grungy or has a lot of primer residue in the pockets, soak the stuff overnight in your cleaning solution and then put it in the tumbler, it cuts the cleaning time in half (down to about 2 hours tops).

Gear

[jmorris]

I built some really big tumblers for a business and they don't use any media. It obviously doesn't clean the inside of the case or primer pocket as well as with pins but you can't tell the difference before or after you fire the ammunition (unless you pull the bullet, dump the powder and deprime the case).

[mac60]

Have used the HF dual drum rock tumbler for several years. Hot water (hot as I can get it from the tap), a good dash of Lemishine and a small squirt of dawn (no ss pins). Run it 1 1/2 - 2 hrs. Works just fine. Needing more capacity, I recently got a F/A tumbler. Haven't even used it yet.

[McE1911]

I recently started to use the HF dual drum rock tumble. Almost use the same recipe as mentioned above. Hot water (hot as I can get it from the tap), a good pinch of Lemishine and a small squirt of any liquid soap & degreaser w SS pins. Then run it for abt 1hr. Works just fine. They come out shiny & purtty.

[gunoil]

lemishine, dawn. My ss media turns at 500rpm. Do batches every 10mins, rinse in really hot water and throw out on a beach towel in spare room. I stay 1000 ahead on the pistol brass.

Decap a pile real quick: deticated lee loadmaster decap monster.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThMYhaZ-bMM

I built one of these, l enjoy prepping brass with extra stages to feed 1050.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_FpiTzVYP8

[blikseme300]

Most of the toobers and even the folks at SSTM are a little off base in my opinion. You can't really use too much citric acid IF you use rainwater or distilled water. What you CAN use too much of is detergent. I think SSTM recommended 1/4 teaspoon Lemi-Shine and two TABLESPOONS Dawn concentrated dishwashing liquid, which is enough to do about 200 sinkfulls of dishes and foams to buggary in the tumbler. I use a teaspoon or maybe a little more Lemi-Shine (measured Justin Wilson style) and a "squirt" of Dawn or Lemon Joy amounting to about half a teaspoon. The object is to have just a few suds visible when you open the tumbler back up, the purpose is to be a surfacant and adding more is pointless and makes rinsing a pain.

For a sealant, I use a liquid automotive wax and distilled water as a rinse. The media separator SSTM sells (similar to a cob separator sold by FA, RCBS, etc.) is convenient for this as I just fill the tub up with a weak water/wax solution and tumble away to get the pins out.

Another tip, if your brass is really grungy or has a lot of primer residue in the pockets, soak the stuff overnight in your cleaning solution and then put it in the tumbler, it cuts the cleaning time in half (down to about 2 hours tops).

Gear

I'm with Gear in that the water quality plays a huge role in the efficacy of the recipe. We have very hard municipal water where I am at and distilled water is what I use. Very little Dawn is needed and I also use automotive wax during the rinse. Brass not only does not tarnish as readily but pistol brass needs less effort to size. (I de-prime without resizing using a Lee universal de-primer die fed by a collator on a LnL AP. BTW - I like clean brass when I reload. :))

[prs]

Enough hot water to cover dirty brass with spent primers in, about a teaspoon of citric acid powder and another of Dawn. Tumble several hours. Rinse until clear. Drain water and with a small dib of Lee case lube on hands, run my fingers through the wet cases. Dry in food dehydrator for a few hours. I have used ceramic and SS media with same solution and procedure and see no benefit, they get just as clean without. See no reason to deprime first, pockets are plenty clean even with spent primers left in. KISS

prs

[lightman]

I sold my model "B" and bought a "Big Dawg". I use dawn and Lemishine . Good water helps and so does drying them, if the water spots bother you.

[pjames32]

LemiShine is supposed to be mostly citric acid. Thats regular old cheap rx vitamin C. Couldn't one just use a cheap vitamin tablit? One of the writers says he uses an asprin tablit and nu shine with the dawn. I wonder what effect asprin would have on brass??
Vitamin C is ascorbic acid....not the same as citric acid. Citric acid is cheap even as Lemi Shine! Why chance it?

[TheGameMaster]

I was never really picky about how clean my pistol and revolver brass was. I was kinda with ol' Mr. Lee on that one. But I did get a small Lyman 1200 all the same to shine up my rifle brass. Then when I did some more looking into things, I decided that reducing the amount of lead dust exposure wouldn't be a bad thing. Clean brass is a lot easier to deal with when reloading. I tried using my vibrating tumbler with a teaspoon of dawn, and a 1/8 cup of simple green, fresh fish tank gravel, water to cover the 300 9mm brass. I duct taped the strainer holes on the Lyman 1200 lid to keep the solution inside. It worked. It worked well for making the brass sparkle. But the fish tank gravel stuck in the primer pockets on about a third of the brass, and bigger chunks stuck in the brass mouths. I had to take my HF pick set and pick them all out. It was a PAIN! The brass looks great however.

But after this, I discovered a number of writers saying that you shouldn't use simple green on your brass as it degrades it's integrity. Is there any truth to that? I found it on sale at Safeway. $3 a bottle, plus a $1 off coupon, so I got it for only $2 a bottle that normally sells for $5. It does not have ammonia in it. Here is the MSDS (http://simplegreen.com/pdfs/MSDS_EN-US_AllPurposeCleaner.pdf) Its got 2-butoxyethanol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2-Butoxyethanol), Ethoxylated Alcohol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethoxylation), Tetrapotassium Pyrophosphate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrasodium_pyrophosphate), and Sodium Citrate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_citrate) as the main cleaners. If it's just the acid concentration that is the problem, that's easily fixed by adjusting the solution density. Is alcohol bad on brass? Maybe that's the problem? Got any chemists out there?

One chemist did an alnalysis of LemiShine (http://www.chemistry-blog.com/2012/05/18/whats-in-lemi-shine/) for those who want something to read before bed... it was posted before in the fourm I see in google.

Anyway, I decided that I'd get the HF tumbler and some Steel pins after that. My wife has a dehydrator she doesn't use so I can dry my brass in it. Funny thing, it's the same dehydrator one of the web sites (http://www.stainlesstumblingmedia.com/brass-dryer.html) was selling as a Brass Dryer for over $60, that we got on sale at Walmart (http://www.walmart.com/ip/Presto-Dehydro-Electric-Food-Dehydrator-06300/20924338?action=product_interest&action_type=title&placement_id=irs_middle&strategy=PWVUB&visitor_id=87431081715&category=0%3A4044%3A90548%3A90546%3A133025&client_guid=5eac1480-974a-4c1a-9e8e-23f103a4f37d&customer_id_enc=ad8120d5ed66f5f137f8bd77e2985a45&config_id=0&parent_item_id=24690320&guid=8050202c-9f94-4dd9-ab2d-043f4b00db3f&bucket_id=irsbucketdefault&findingMethod=p13n) for $39 with 4 extra trays. Change the stickers and call it a brass dryer so you can charge $20 more.

Several folks have stated that they like to use a wax of some sort in the tumble or in the rinse. Someone used Wash & Wax car wash. One guy uses Armor All. Another used Nu-shine. Another used One Shot. And another said they used WD-40. Sounds like it really doesn't matter which product so much, as long as it adds a thin film. Would that be a fair assessment? How would that work in the rinse process? What's the procedure you use?

Same can be said for the citric acid. I found LemiShine on sale at Winco for only $3.58 a can, so I'm all set there. Ordered the 0.047 pins from Bullseye. So we'll see what happens.

Rodney

On a completely unrelated note; Home Depot has alox toilet rings for $1.49! Had to snag me some when I was there. They also carry Johnson's Paste Wax. Made my day easier.

[TheGameMaster]

The toilet rings have a 1 year warranty. If my barrel's lead after using it, can I get my $1.49 back? :-)

[Bayou52]

"Several folks have stated that they like to use a wax of some sort in the tumble or in the rinse. Someone used Wash & Wax car wash. One guy uses Armor All. Another used Nu-shine. Another used One Shot. And another said they used WD-40. Sounds like it really doesn't matter which product so much, as long as it adds a thin film. Would that be a fair assessment? How would that work in the rinse process? What's the procedure you use?"

Hi, Gamemaster-

I wet tumble and substitute auto wash and wax for detergent for the tumble process. I've used several brands including Blue Coral, ArmorAll and RainX. Thay all wok and clean about equally well. So, I just use the cheaper Blue Coral - about $3.60 per 3 quart bottle at WallyWorld.

I add the wash and wax to the tumble drum, not during the rinse. The brasses tumble in the mixture of water, wash and wax and 1/4 TSP of Lemi-Shine.

Happy Tumbling....

Bayou

[abunaitoo]

Has anyone tried non spotting dish washing liquid instead of Dawn????
I'm thinking this might help stop the tarnishing when drying.

[Handloader109]

I've Been using a squirt of rv wash&wax from wally world in place of the lemy shine. Usually add just a few drops of dawn. Works well in the HF tumbler with pins.

[Weaponologist]

I've used several different drums but the Drum I'm using now. Takes 8# of .62 SS Media 5# Brass little over 1gal. of water...I add 2 Table spoons of Dawn and 1/8 Tease Spoon of Lem Shine...If I add to much Lem Shine I get a Blue/Purple streaks as they dry...I Dry my Brass with a Fan with all the Brass laying flat on a Towel..

I think I'll give that non Spotting Dish Washer cleaner a try that ABUNAITOO was talking about...Sound like a good idea...

http://i61.tinypic.com/zj6vt5.jpg

[Bonz]

I use cold water, 1 tablespoon of Dawn dish soap per gallon of water, 1/4 teaspoon of Lemishine per gallon of water

[monmouth]

I built some really big tumblers for a business and they don't use any media. It obviously doesn't clean the inside of the case or primer pocket as well as with pins but you can't tell the difference before or after you fire the ammunition (unless you pull the bullet, dump the powder and deprime the case).

+1

water temp doesn't make a difference, I never use waxes or auto care products to stop tarnish, and i don't tumble for hours. Water, soap, and a little lemishine will be plenty. If you want brass that will be jeweler quality after cleaning, whole different process. Won't make better ammo, but it's what customers expect when they purchase processed brass from me.

[TheGameMaster]

I got a brand new Lee Breech Lock Hand Press and loaded it with my Lee Universal Decapping Die. I then sat down and watched a couple of hours of Marvels Agents of Shield and NCIS while mindlessly decapping 9mm brass. Then I got my bad of pins from Bullseye, so I had to put all of this collective internet wisdom to the test. I loaded them into my HF duel drum tumbler with 1.5# of brass, 1# of pins, a sprinkle of Lemishine, and a few drops of dawn in each drum. One I covered with 209 degree water out of my in sink Erator (yes, I'm a tea drinker...) and the other with just cold tap water. I filled the drums almost full, leaving a little air space. I then tumbled them while watching NCIS:LA. Dumped out the water using a kitchen strainer I got for just such projects. The pins were big enough to stay in the strainer. Then I rinsed them in the strainer with cold water stirring them up with my hand. Then I sprayed Armour All on them and stirred them up to spread it around. Then I used one of trays from my wife's dehydrator with duct tape over the center hold to sift the pins out into a bucket. I then laid them out on some paper towels and rolled them around to get any extra pins out and dry them off. Then I let them sit on the paper towels overnight. Next morning: Perfect. Nice shinny clean brass. I've ran two batches now, and they all come out perfect. About 600 rounds thus far. I still have half a coffee can (ok, yes, I drink coffee on occasion, but my wife drinks almost a whole pot every day) of 9mm to decap and "wash". I also have a coffee can of 40 and 45 to deal with. Now I have to cast some boolits for all of the brass. I ran out of Lee 356-95-2R's and Lee 358-105-SWCs on the last round of reloading.

This has been very educational. I'll try the wax in the mix idea next time. It's a lot cheaper than Armour All. I have some cheap liquid turtle wax, so I'll try a small squirt of that with the dawn and see how that dries.

Rodney

[dikman]

I'm in the process of building a (small) tumbler, now that I've become involved in reloading cartridges (I never thought that would happen!) and I've been reading these cartridge cleaning threads with interest. Most mention Lemishine, which got me curious, so I looked up the MSDS - two ingredients, both secret, although one is obviously what gives it the lemon smell. More searching, and I found a thread by a guy who used it and also wondered what was in it. Being a chemist, he figured he should use his skills and knowledge to find out. He posted as he went, and invited others to offer advice. End result, he believes it's simply citric acid. All of his tests point to it, and the slight discrepancies he found while testing were not significant enough to change his view.

Of interest, the Lemishine people apparently run a facebook page and became aware of his efforts. When he said citric acid they said "close, but no first prize" - which, of course, they would do, wouldn't they?;). The fact that they don't list the ingredients means that it has to be something commonly available, and his testing (what little I could understand of it!) was pretty conclusive, in my opinion.

For anyone who might be interested......

[zomby woof]

Which is, decapped cases and one hour with Dawn and LemiShine, followed by a change of water (room temperature, not hot) and two hours replacing the Dawn with a glug of Armorall Wash & Wax liquid. The Armorall seems to leave a micro coat of hard wax (undetectable by feel or appearance) that retards tarnishing. Cases emerge brilliantly clean and shiny, inside and out.

I tried this yesterday. I ran 900 9mm de-capped cases in Dawn and pins for one hour and the left overnight. I dumped the dirty water out and replaced along with Wash and Wax and Lemi-shine for two additional hours. Worked great.

[Nueces]

I tried this yesterday. I ran 900 9mm de-capped cases in Dawn and pins for one hour and the left overnight. I dumped the dirty water out and replaced along with Wash and Wax and Lemi-shine for two additional hours. Worked great.

Hooaah!

[dikman]

Anyone use anything else beside the pins? They are horribly expensive here!

[beroen]

Anyone use anything else beside the pins? They are horribly expensive here!
Check EBAY

[dikman]

Thanks, but I was wondering what other options there are that others are using. I tried small steel ball bearings, but I don't think they're overly effective.

[Bayou52]

Anyone use anything else beside the pins? They are horribly expensive here!

Check out this vendor:

http://www.bullseye-reloading.com/

Reasonably pticed, fast shipping.

Bayou52

[dikman]

Thanks Bayou, prices certainly seem reasonable, but he only mentions local shipping. I suspect O/S shipping would be high, due to the weight.

[Bayou52]

Thanks Bayou, prices certainly seem reasonable, but he only mentions local shipping. I suspect O/S shipping would be high, due to the weight.

Yes, I see now that you are located down-under. Sorry about that, dikman.....

Bayou52

[TheGameMaster]

Okay, I've been experimenting. I've tried several different combinations of soap, additives, waxes, time, soaking, etc. And what I have found works the best FOR ME in the HF dual drum is:
In each drum, put one pound of .047 Stainless Steel Pins, a generous dash of Lemmie Shine, a good squirt of Dawn, and a couple of handfuls of brass, so the drum is about 3/4 full. Cover with water. Tumble for 30 minutes. Rinse with water and then separate the pins out. I use a large kitchen strainer from Walmart to rise the brass over a bucket. Then I use a tray out of a dehydrator with duct tape over the center hole to separate out the pins over a bucket and pour them back in the drum. Spray down the brass with regular Armor All and tumble it with your hand. Tumble Nickle Plated brass by itself, not with regular brass as it will dull badly. Brass comes out nice and bright. Once in a blue moon, you may find some brass that needs to be cycled again. Some really nasty +P stuff or really old range recovery stuff usually. Watch the +P stuff, as they can get hairline case splits that you won't notice until after you've cleaned and inspected them. It looks like a watermark from drying, but upon closer inspection it's a nasty crack in the case. Word of advice, don't put wax in your tumble mix. I know some of the guys do that and it works for them. But it turned out nasty for me. I use a squirt of Turtle Wax once, and it made a mess of the shells. Black residue all over everything they touched. Armor All after the rinse works really well.

Hope that's helpful,

Rodney

[USMC87]

I use one teaspoon of lemishine and a big squirt of any dish detergent I have on hand, I run the tumbler for about 1.5 hrs and rinse well. After the rinse I use a media seperater and spin off what water I can, I place my brass on a screen off the floor and run a fan over them until dry. I have always had very good results with this, I am interested in the auto wax rinse process and will be trying it on the next round of brass.

[Bayou52]

After the rinse I use a media seperater and spin off what water I can, I place my brass on a screen off the floor and run a fan over them until dry.


I use the media separator to "spin dry" the brass as well, but I throw a dry towel/rag in the squirrel cage and agitate back and forth. The rag absorbs the moisture. I repeat a second time, at which point the brasses are just about completely dry. No need to use any fans, dryers, etc.
Works real well and real simple.....

Bayou52

[beroen]

Man you guys are using a ton of lemon shine the one time I used a heavy dash the brass got darker. Now I am using a .3cc lee dipper the smallest one they have in the measure kit and after a hour in the HF tumbler they come out nice and white brass looking. With a dime size glob of dawn

[USMC87]

Hey Bayou52, That rag in the seperater is going to be a hit with me now. I never thought of doing that.

[jimbull34]

Great info here, thanks to all, now my .02$! I use a mix of arm and hammer with oxy-clean, citric acid and a dash of vinager and let soak in my cement mixer. When I start tumbling, I add several pieces of 000 steel wool that I get from home depot for 2-3$. It works really great and its cheap. I did one batch using wd-40 on the dry cases and it stained a bunch of them really bad, so I don't use that any more. I do stray them with hornady one shot lube and of course, that works really good, but its expensive. I am going to try the wash and wax and see how that works. Bright and shiny sells!!!!

[Bayou52]

Hey Bayou52, That rag in the seperater is going to be a hit with me now. I never thought of doing that.

Hi, USMC87 -

Glad you like the "spin dry" technique using the rag/towel in the squirrel cage. It's works great for me, too, and it's so simple of an idea..........

Happy Tumbling!

Bayou52

[Cadillo]

lemishine, dawn. My ss media turns at 500rpm. Do batches every 10mins, rinse in really hot water and throw out on a beach towel in spare room. I stay 1000 ahead on the pistol brass.

Decap a pile real quick: deticated lee loadmaster decap monster.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThMYhaZ-bMM

I built one of these, l enjoy prepping brass with extra stages to feed 1050.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_FpiTzVYP8

How is it that the centrifugal force does not just lodge the cases in a lump in on spot of the drum at that high an rpm? My tumbler's drum rotates at 46 rpm, which allows the cases to be constantly rolling to the bottom of the drum, thus scrubbing against the pins. If 500 rpm is the correct rpm, I'm guessing that you have some sort of mechanical agitation mechanism rather than depending on gravity to pull the cases and pins to the bottom of the drum. A picture, or better yet a video of your system would be most enlightening.

[hickfu]

Great idea with the wash and wax! I will have to give that a go next time I tumble! Geeze I see now that I have been putting in way too much dawn and LemiShine.... And the towel in the squirrel cage is brilliant...

[Bayou52]

In addition to the speed issue, the Thumler's tumbler, Model B, has an octagon shaped drum with flat sides to assure constant tumbling of the contents.

Bayou52

[257]

I have a frankford arsenal rotary,i use a teaspoon of lemi shine I use warm water the lemi dissolves better in warm water, on the dawn soap use a couple of drops per gal of water. the first time I ran a load I used about table spoon of dawn it was way to much had to really rinse them for ever. on the citric acid I used to clean brass by soaking it in it. I used to make it by dissolving it in hot water it didn't dissolve well in cold water. after it was made up it would work well cold or hot.