Looking for casting and load development recommendations for 9mm auto

[Andy]

**Sep 2015 update: leading problem was a result of unknowingly using very old lube in the sizer, details around post 55, everything working normally now**

I'm new to reloading and am working with an experienced rifle reloader/caster friend to help me get started in general but specifically in developing a cast load for a 9mm. We are fairly well set on general equipment but due to my complete lack of experience and his focus on rifle in the past, I could really use some advice on where to start in developing a load for my 9mm. I know this is a very difficult caliber to start off on but here I am and I hope I can get off on the right foot with the help of your experience.

As a side note I'm fairly new to the forum (reading for a few weeks but just joined tonight) and completely new to reloading. I've read most of the stickies and and have spent a few weeks reading here to see how things work so I hope I won't ask questions that have already been answered too often. I have read most of the relevant posts on 9mm development in general and want to see what people think about my specific gun/needs. Mtngun44 's post was particularly helpful. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121607-Setting-up-for-boolits-in-a-new-9mm

My info:
- This is a practice round for extensive realistic practice with a carry gun, I want to eventually (nearly) replicate factory recoil on a 125gr JHP. I will pay critical attention to accuracy in other cast loads for other guns in the future, but this is not one of those loads. 2-4" at 25 yards is ok here. Reliability is not critical as I will never carry this round, and malfunctions give good training value.

- I will be shooting through a subcompact glock with a lonewolf 3.5" aftermarket conversion barrel (1 in 16 twist), please note that this is a normal rifled barrel, not a polygonal glock barrel and all the debate that goes with that.

- I have slugged the barrel with a pure lead slug and it came out at .3566, .3566, .3577 on the three opposing drive band measurements. Slugging/measurements taken roughly one hour after casting the slug.

- Finances are tight now and the main purpose of this project is to allow me to develop a load with realistic recoil (eventually) that I can afford to practice with right now. I gather I need to start slow and work up to this though so slower load recommendations are welcome. Not expecting any miracles here just want to get close.

- I am an experienced pistol shooter (20-30k rounds 9mm, training geared toward IDPA standards.)

- Available powder is limited to the following based on current powder shortage: bullseye, reloader#5, #7

- planning on using hornady carbide die set 546516, plus lyman M die on a rock chucker press, maybe using friend's dillon 550 after I get a proven load worked up, 100 rd/wk max useage

My questions:
- Based on what I've read so far I was thinking to buy the .358, 125 gr lee 90574 bullet mold, is this appropriate based on my bore diameter/requirements? The person helping me said to ask if this mold runs small/large with wheel weights. I could also try a .356 mold but I gather that is too small based on my slug measurements.

- I have COWW as on hand alloy (50 lbs+) and can get other stuff as needed, cost not a big deal on this item, what is the appropriate alloy for whatever you recommend? Especially curious based on mold type/number.

- what load do you shoot in a similar gun, what do you think of it?

Thanks,
Andy

[Jr.]

For starting off and using this as a practice round your Lee mould will do you just fine. The thing I've experienced with lees are that the cost makes them well worth it for plinking and practice purposes but they are not always consistent on their cavaties. So best bet would be to get the mold and the intended size of Lee push through sizer to start with. Low cost and produces a fairly consistent projectile this way.

As far as load recommendations get you a good manual with data for cast bullets as the data is different between jacketed an cast.

Welcome aboard lots of good information and people on this site that'll be of more help to you I'm sure.

[fecmech]

I would recommend the Lee 120TC (90239) bullet for your practice loads. They generally drop .357 or .358 sized bullets and are a very accurate and reliable 9MM bullet. I think you would do just fine with your WW mix with a bit of tin and water dropped if you wanted to. The 9 is not hard to load for if you pay attention to detail, MTNgun44's sticky has excellent info. Be careful when you taper crimp to just remove the case flare and no more. You do not want to size the bullet smaller when you crimp. Good luck to you.

[FergusonTO35]

+1 to Fecmech. You are lucky to have Bullseye available, it is one of the best powders for 9mm cast. Try 3.7 grains with a Federal primer, Lee 356-120-TC sized to .357 at around 1.052 OAL. Should produce around 975 fps out of your pistol and more accurate than you can hold. It is a one hole load out of my Glock 19 with Storm Lake barrel.

[blueeyephil]

I'll through in a couple of thoughts here. With WW, I usually will get .358 out of the .356 dies. So, I would get a 9mm die and not try to do double duty with a .358 die. Get a Lee 6 cavity mold for sure. For pistol, you'll be glad you did. I have a 124 TC myself. I powder coat my bullets using the dry tumble method. I then use a Lee push through sizer at .358 and it works fine for me in a CZ that slugged .355. I've been using w231 myself but have thought of using bullseye. Except that I'm almost out and I've always used it for light 38 spcl loads.

I've gotten very good accuracy with my CZ with those cheep bullets. The powder coating isn't hard to do and I like them a lot better than using tumble lube like I started with. I was using the Alox/PasteWax/Mineral Spirits that isn't bad. But I've gone to all powder coating now.

[williamwaco]

My favorite 9mm bullet is the Lee 356-124 TC ( Tumble Lube ). Size .357 and cast from air cooled wheel weights.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/366607/lee-2-cavity-bullet-mold-tl356-124-tc-9mm-luger-38-super-380-acp-356-diameter-124-grain-tumble-lube-truncated-cone?cm_vc=ProductFinding

Note that in many cases the .357 die barely touches it.

The 120 would also be an excellent choice.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/241085/lee-2-cavity-bullet-mold-356-120-tc-9mm-luger-38-super-380-acp-356-diameter-120-grain-truncated-cone?cm_vc=ProductFinding

[MtGun44]

This may help.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121607-Setting-up-for-boolits-in-a-new-9mm

IMO, most new 9mm folks make the mistake of going to a RN config boolit because they
see RN in the ball JACKETED ammo. Jacketed ammo is able to use significantly smaller
diameter boolits, and even most .355 and .356 groove diam 9mms usually work the best
with .357 or .358 diam boolits. These tend to fit better with a truncated cone boolit
because they usually fit the throats better.

Bill

[Handloader109]

Agree with Bill, I Powder coat and the rn is always a problem as I increase nose with the PC. 124gr is much easier to use.

[williamwaco]

This may help.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121607-Setting-up-for-boolits-in-a-new-9mm

IMO, most new 9mm folks make the mistake of going to a RN config boolit because they
see RN in the ball JACKETED ammo. Jacketed ammo is able to use significantly smaller
diameter boolits, and even most .355 and .356 groove diam 9mms usually work the best
with .357 or .358 diam boolits. These tend to fit better with a truncated cone boolit
because they usually fit the throats better.

Bill


Ditto.

[Andy]

I wanted to thank everyone for the replies here, I'm especially grateful for the specific recommendations that were provided. I'm happy to hear that the 9mm specific molds will drop bullets of an appropriate diameter, I was worried my bore is on the large side and that I would have trouble in this regard, sounds like it shouldn't be too much of an issue though.

Based on what was recommended I think I'll purchase a lee 356-120 mold in 6 cavity. I can get the mold in a few days and have coww ingots ready to go so I hope to be able to cast this week.

Any lube recommendations for the 356-120 mold in my barrel? I figure on starting in the 900-1000 fps range and hope to work up to 1250-1300 fps if possible.

My friend already has a .358 die for his lyman lube sizer, is that a good place to start as far as bullet sizing or had I better get the .357 one as was recommended?

I just purchased that 4# can of bullseye brand new for $60, was pretty happy to find that in this market.

[retread]

Another vote with Bill. I jumped through the hoops and after all the chasing around I ended up with the TC sized to .358. Good accuracy and leading disappeared. I load the 124TC over 3.8 gr. Bullseye. I mix my COWW and PB 50/50 with an added 1-2% tin. Air cooled. I use a lubesizer for some and PC some of the time. Accuracy seems to be about equivalent between the two.


This may help.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121607-Setting-up-for-boolits-in-a-new-9mm

IMO, most new 9mm folks make the mistake of going to a RN config boolit because they
see RN in the ball JACKETED ammo. Jacketed ammo is able to use significantly smaller
diameter boolits, and even most .355 and .356 groove diam 9mms usually work the best
with .357 or .358 diam boolits. These tend to fit better with a truncated cone boolit
because they usually fit the throats better.

Bill

[fecmech]

Any lube recommendations for the 356-120 mold in my barrel? I figure on starting in the 900-1000 fps range and hope to work up to 1250-1300 fps if possible.
I'm a hard lube guy myself but my advice would be to try different lubes for yourself and see what you like best. In regards to the "working up to 1250-1300 fps", my advice would be to loose the Bullseye somewhere around 1000 fps. IME Bluedot and especially Longshot gave good to excellent accuracy at the high end.

[Ido356]

I don't know Hornady dies, but in Lee dies get the 38 S&W expander ($3.00) from Lee.
The biggest problem I found is getting an over size boolit into the cast without swagging it. Load sample rounds do the Ka-plunk test in your barrel, then pull the boolit and measure to make sure your not swagging the boolit. Swagging boolits in the case equals leading regardless of what kind of lube you use.

[Andy]

Thanks for the tips on lube/powder. It was recommended to me to use the lyman M die for cast bullets in this caliber so I have ordered that and plan on trying that out from the start.

[retread]

I don't know Hornady dies, but in Lee dies get the 38 S&W expander ($3.00) from Lee.
The biggest problem I found is getting an over size boolit into the cast without swagging it. Load sample rounds do the Ka-plunk test in your barrel, then pull the boolit and measure to make sure your not swagging the boolit. Swagging boolits in the case equals leading regardless of what kind of lube you use.

That has been my experience also. I machine new powder funnel/expanders for my Dillon 550. I tried the 38 spl but it still was too tight for my liking.

[MtGun44]

I would be careful with the M-die to ensure that you do not reduce
neck tension enough that there is a risk of a boolit pushing into the
case during feeding. Take a dummy round made up with your
chosen dies and components and push the boolit as hard as you
can against the edge of the bench and see of the LOA changes. If
it does, you need more crimp and/or more neck tension.

One of the NRA 50-50 lubes out there, like the old Javelina or from
LsStuff, will work well with a conventional lube Lee 356-120-TC.

I like Unique in the 9mm, although I am currently working through
a large bottle of SP-8, an oddball Nobel powder that is apparently
only useable for 9mm. It will be a good while before I am shooting
anything but SP-8, but in the past I had great results with Unique.

I apologize for not reading your first post closely enough the first time,
where you said you had already read that post on the 9mm.

Bill

[Andy]

Thanks mtngun, I figured you just missed it, I found your earlier post very helpful in deciding where to start off. Thanks especially for the tips on the M die, I will absolutely look for that now that you made me aware of it. Does the M die tend to make bullets looser or just require a more perfect crimping operation afterwards? It was recommended to my by someone who may not have used taper crimp dies before, so hopefully it is still appropriate for what I am doing.

I have access to some unique to try it out, so I'll be including that in my first trials. Should have dies in on Monday so I hope to have some loads to shoot before the end of next week.

[leeggen]

Andy welcome to the sight. Seems you are doing the homework pryor to loading for the 9mm. Some say it is hard to load for, but you have to understand some of ourlongterm members have already done the leg work so we can capitolize on them. They had to test and fail several times where we can read about their mistakes and not have to do all of them. I load for the 9mm and the 40S&W. fell in love with both. At present I am trying Bluedot in both and seem to be haveing success. I use the TL-356-124-TC and tumble lube with Alox. For me I have found if I lube with 3 light coats(it fills the lube grooves pretty full of lube) my last dab of leading went away. Good luck and you will have success.
CD

[Fishman]

One thing that will make your life easier 9mm would be to use only domestic produced brass. There are a huge variety of makers for 9mm brass and varying hardness, thickness, length, and primer pocket depth are some of the problems you find. As this is all new to you, make it as straight forward as possible. I find 9mm to be my least favorite cartridge to reload, but it still beats buying them.
.

[beroen]

One thing that will make your life easier 9mm would be to use only domestic produced brass. There are a huge variety of makers for 9mm brass and varying hardness, thickness, length, and primer pocket depth are some of the problems you find. As this is all new to you, make it as straight forward as possible. I find 9mm to be my least favorite cartridge to reload, but it still beats buying them.
.
I have noticed this and I haven't even started reloading yet! Are +P. Cases different also

[Andy]

Post edited: was having problems with bullets getting stuck in seating/crimping die but it was a result of me not following the set-up instructions correctly. Went through them step by step and everything is working fine now. I was letting one part of the die turn when adjusting another and should have been holding it steady. My no primer/powder sample rounds are within size specs and I should be able to shoot a few test rounds within the next few days.

[Low Budget Shooter]

Andy, good to see another man getting into reloading. I had a number of trial-and-error experiences even after reading alot of the good info on this board. I just didn't understand until I had tried it. Then the advice made sense and I was able to make corrections and work it all out. One of the keys for me was the Lee .38 S&W expander insert mentioned above. That was just a few dollars, and made it all work.

[tazman]

One of the most important things for me was seating the boolit then taper crimping as a separate step. This allows you to seat the boolit easily without scraping the side with the case mouth during the last bit of seating/crimping. You usually also get a better, more consistent crimp which feeds better and increases accuracy.

[cpaspr]

I went with the Lee 356-120-TC mold. For me it drops boolits large enough to size to .358". My barrel slugged at .357". I'm shooting them out of a Ruger SR9c, using 4.5gr of Bullseye, or 5.5gr of Unique. The Bullseye gave slightly tighter groups, but I have more Unique available. We'll see when I get loading 9mm again.

Fishman's comment about the domestic brass is interesting. Herters brass is turning up quite a bit around here, and I ended up with about 140 of them in .45LC. The primer pockets all ended up needing to be deswaged, and their still a bit tight. I've heard they're made by S&B, and I'd already noticed that those tend to have tight pockets. So, for all my semi-auto rounds I'm now sorting out all the foreign stuff and oddballs. Standardizing on Winchester, Federal, Speer, Blazer and PMC. I've got enough of just those that I can sell/scrap the rest.

[FergusonTO35]

Andy, do you know what your chosen carry ammo actually clocks out of your pistol? Published velocities for both ammo and reloading data tend to be optimistic at best, fantasy at worst. My chrono tests have always shown that factory 9mm ball ammo is on average 100 fps slower than the factory claims out of a 3.5" barrel. The Lee 356-120-TC at 1000 fps or so should replicate the POI of just about any standard pressure 124 grain jacketed factory load with better accuracy and somewhat less recoil.

[Love Life]

I have reloaded the 9mm cartridge successfully for years for numerous handguns. 2 of those handguns being a Glock 17 with factory barrel and Glcok 26 with factory barrel.

I use COWW water quenched and sized to .357. I use either the RCBS 115gr or 124 gr RN bullet. I seat to 1.100, lube with speed green or Lotak Hard, crimp to specs, and call it a day. Using mixed HS brass I have found no need to use a M-Die for the 9mm.

[tazman]

I also water drop the boolits I cast for pistol use. I use Lee dies and only use the stock expander in the standard dies. Never had a problem with the boolits being swaged down unless I was seating way too deep in the case.
I tumble lube with White label X-lox or 45-45-10.
I just don't get leading any more since I started sizing to .358. I got a little bit when sizing at .357 which is what my barrel slugs measure.

[MtGun44]

The functional heart of an M-die is an oversized, stepped expander button. The intent is
to ensure that a boolit is not shaved - for rifle ammo, loaded with the pull-through expanders
so commonly used for bottle necked cartridges. These dies left zero flare, so boolits were
shaved when seated and likely too tight necks for softer boolits as compared to bullets.

So - the M-type expander make the necks looser than for jbullets and add a small section of
oversized expansion at the front to the case - just larger than the boolit to eliminate shaving.

For a bottlenecked rifle cartridge, this makes perfect sense. For a tapered pistol
cartridge (9mm) to be run through a semi-auto - it seems to make a bunch less sense unless
you show by testing that your cases are sizing down your boolits as they are seated.
If this is not happening - I see no need for this kind of expander. Pistol expanders already
flare the case mouth, so the stepped section isn't an improvement, and the looser neck
tension may be dangerous.

Bill

[Andy]

I finally have an update to offer, as with most things this took a lot longer to actually get done than I had planned. The brass I had planned to load "the next day" was military crimped, which I didn't know at the time, so I had to get the tool to remove that and then realized I was missing some key components for general reloading, so here we are a few months later. Christmas was good to me though and I've got everything I need now.

I'll try to list all the major points that have happened since the last post since it has been a while
- Purchased the Lee 6 cavity 120-tc mold
- Cast about 250 good bullets out of it with COWW+2% tin (culled about 50% of my first batches while I was learning)
- ~200 of those were air cooled, ~30 water dropped (cast in october)
- Got about 300 mixed once-fired polished brass from a friend, which I've sorted by headstamp
- Borrowed a lyman 450 lubesizer with a .358 die
- Sized all bullets (dropped from the mold at .358-.360) to .358 and lubed with 50/50
- Built a reloading stand to get the operation up to a comfortable height off my bench

So, tonight I finally got some rounds loaded. I did all the case prep ahead of time and then had a friend who reloads guide me through the powder/seating steps for the 10 rounds I was doing (5 each minimum loads for two kinds of brass). I wanted to have someone there to make sure I didn't do anything foolish since this is my first time using any reloading equipment. We got my powder measure set up and triple checked it, and used that for this batch.

Using AA #5 for this at the lyman cast bullet #4 edition starting load(didn't want to start off with something with such a narrow window like bullseye, I'll try that once I'm more experienced), COAL was 1.170-1.171

I used the M-die for case expansion and tested the crimp by hand to see if I could move the bullet and wasn't able to, I'll do a basic test in the magazine tomorrow to see if the first four shots cause the last round to shorten.

I was given a chronograph for Christmas so if everything works out I should have a range report tomorrow and maybe even chrono data if all the stars align.

[MtGun44]

Good luck. Looking fwd to the report.

You did verify that the rounds would chamber freely, right? :-)

Bill

[tazman]

I am also looking forward to the report. It is always good to see someone new get off to a start.

[Gunslingerdoc]

Lee 6 cavity is a must. I Use the 124gr rn tumble lube bullet. I found with wheel weights they cast close to sized so unless you really want the most accurate boolits you don't have to size them (verify this yourself please). On a budget, a guy could cast, tumble lube with lee's lube (larger cheaper quantities available on eBay or mix with johnsons paste wax) load and shoot.

a better solution would be read up on non spray methods of using powder coat (PC) and powder coat your boolits rather than lubing them. This will require a bit more time and $50-60 more in cost buying a Lee push thru sized and a toaster over. The benefit will be no leading, no lube smoke when firing and more consistent accuracy and no lube build up in your seating dies (this is almost enough benefit in and of itself if you load much)...and your boolits will be a cool color!

[Andy]

Ok, so here is the full range update:

Day 1: Fired a few test rounds (5 ea.) at the minimum powder load, then .1 grain higher, no indications of over-pressure, no issues with bullet setback in the magazine, no lube star

Day 2: Loaded for my first batch of trials: Loaded roughly 90 rounds of 10 different headstamps in 5-25 round lots, all otherwise identical loads. I'll repeat the specifics here: Win SP primers, Accurate #5 powder, lyman 49th edition starting load + .1 grain, Lee 120TC bullet (COWW +2% tin, air cooled, sized to .358) weighed in at an average of 116.5 gr, COAL of 1.068-1.069. Firing in a G33 (subcompact .357 sig) with a lone wolf 9mm conversion barrel. 15-20 degrees F out but I kept the bullets and gun warm until right before firing and kept the bullets in my heated truck until shooting that 5 rd batch (wanted to see the effect on lube). 50/50 nra lube from white label lube.

Results:
R-P brass: 25 rds, 942-1001 fps at 15 ft from muzzle, kept the exact same round in the bottom of the mag for all 24 other shots, no change to COAL in that round
WCC brass: 25 rds, 971-1028 fps, std. dev. 16.6, mean 989 (this is the only one I calculated that out for so far), decrimped this by hand with the $10 hornady tool, not worth the effort to do again unless I run out of other brass, found it was hard to remove a consistent amount of bevel.
FC brass: 5 rds (best accuracy group although I wasn't shooting well that day): 933-952 fps
.FC. brass: 5 rds, 964-979
9x19 LY 93 brass (chinese?): 5 rds, 962-978
9x19 CJ 92 brass (origin?): 4 rds, 3 readings lost, only reading I got was 957
NNY (russian?) brass: 5 rds, 931-946 fps
"9mm para 91" brass: 5 rds, 941-973 fps
PMC: 5 rds, 4 readings lost, 958 fps
WIN: 5 rds, one reading lost, 940-971 fps

I had very minor leading in the barrel after all this. I could live with it if it is the worst it got, but wouldn't mind finding a solution. Could not get a lube star on the barrel even with bullets fresh out of the warm car, warm gun, fired within seconds of removing them etc., so looking for recommendations on that. (Identical shooting conditions, same lube, same day with my .45 acp got a lube star after 5 shots). Accuracy was acceptable but nothing worth too many details or photos, I wasn't able to get comfortable with my shooting setup and kept thinking about trying not to shoot the chrony rods, going to move the chrony in closer next time. I'm not likely to actually hit it at 15 feet, but I think about it too much and it distracts me from proper shooting technique. Best groups were a couple 1.5" groups of 5 at 15 yards, worst were 4" at the same.

Have some water dropped bullets already loaded, to try out on a clean barrel and see if they affect leading positively.

Conclusions:

-Similar FPS from all brass types, with the WCC being the only one that was consistently a little higher than the rest. Small sample sizes here of course, but I'm leaning toward just grouping all brass but WCC into mixed brass and reloading it in batches. I'll save the WCC in case I ever run out of other brass or sell it. What do you guys think?

- All rounds cycled the action and I had zero FTF, FTE issues so nothing but good news there.

Also, I recovered one bullet from the soft pine log I was shooting into, absolutely no deformation, I could have loaded it again right there, not sure what to make of that.

Any thought on all of this are appreciated,
Andy

[tazman]

Your velocity is slightly under the book results but that would be because of barrel length. Since you are at starting loads, you have more velocity available if you wish.
From the groupings, it sounds like you have a winner.
Not certain whether the harder boolits will stop the leading but it is worth a try. Sometimes it works.
Keep up the good work.

[Andy]

Thanks tazman, I didn't know those were ok groups, that's good news. The barrel is 3.5" and the chrono was at at least 15', would that account for the velocity difference? My load has a .6 grain range from min to max and I'm at only +.1 now, so I have some room to go up later on for sure.

This is my first ever reloading effort so I'm going to keep a mid-range load as my max at least through the higher temps of summer, and to give myself more of a buffer in case I make minor mistakes. For the same reason I'm using the AA#5 on hand instead of the bullseye I have (for this and .45), since there is a little more room for error with it.

I'll be able to try the water dropped bullets for my next batch and I'll post back here as to whether or not it affects leading. I'll also shoot some "just for accuracy" groups with a more comfortable setup and without the chrony in the way and see what I can do when I'm focused on the target.

[FergusonTO35]

What kind of 9mm pistol are you shooting? If I were you I would bump up the charge to mid-range, which could help your lube to get out of the grooves and into the bore. Accurate number 5 is a great powder, very forgiving and easy on boolits.

[tazman]

The short barrel combined with the distance to the chronograph could account for the difference in velocity. It isn't really something to worry much about.
I would be more concerned with group size. You seem to be doing ok in that regard.

[Andy]

Ferguson, it is a glock 33 with a 9mm conversion barrel. 3.5" barrel.

I'm going to load up another 30 or so and shoot for accuracy (as well as trying the water cooled ones) and probably leave my powder charge where it is until mid-summer. It has been 15-20 degrees here at the range and can get up to 100 in the summer, so I want to leave room to not be over pressure in the summer heat. Does that seem reasonable to you guys, or am I being overcautious?

[FergusonTO35]

Sounds like a good plan to me. I bet the cold is making your boolit lube hard right now.What brand barrel do you have? I have Storm Lake in my Glock 19 and 26 and love it.

[tazman]

Go with your plan. You can always load heavier later. You might find the light loads to be super accurate.

[Andy]

It is a lone wolf barrel, I did test the bullets and gun fresh hot out of the truck and still didn't get a lube star though (see above for details). The leading is pretty minor though so I can live with it if necessary.

Thanks for all the help everyone, I'll definitely have another update after I test the water dropped bullets and an accuracy report. Might be a week or two though.

[Andy]

Went up to the range today and shot this to test accuracy. Fired (4) 5 shot groups at 15 yards off a bench, with the heel of my palms resting on a shooting bag. Group sizes were: 3", 2.6", 2.25", 1.75" in that order. Then I shot a 5 round group offhand of 2.8" and a 10 shot group offhand of about 5", both groups fired somewhat quickly.

I fired the 10 water cooled bullets first (3" and 2.6" groups) and leading was no better than with the air cooled, and probably worse by my estimation. No malfunctions of any kind. I'm going to leave the load alone until summer and see if I still get leading in the higher temperatures.

[MtGun44]

Another example where harder is not a route to eliminate leading. I have never seen
simply going harder fix much of anything.

Bill

[tazman]

Another example where harder is not a route to eliminate leading. I have never seen
simply going harder fix much of anything.

Bill

I have.
Specifically, it allows the rifling to better grip the boolit and stop skidding, thereby increasing accuracy. The barrel in my Taurus 9mm pistol had shallow rifling. While it worked ok with jacketed, it stunk with air cooled cast boolits. I started water hardening them and the accuracy improved dramatically.
In revolvers it reduces boolit deformation during the transition from the cylinder throat to the rifling in the barrel. Particularly in cases where the throat may not be perfectly aligned with the bore. If the cylinder is not too tight it will help pull the cylinder into proper alignment.

[Andy]

Out of curiosity I took some lubed/sized bullets and tumble lubed them with liquid alox. I was curious if this would help prevent leading since this has the normal lube and the tumble lube on top of it. Shot about 30 today (kept them warm until the second I loaded the magazine) and still had as much leading as before, maybe more. No lube star visible.

Today I loaded 50 rounds with unsized (.358-.360) bullets and will try those out soon to see if the larger diameter helps with leading. Maybe it will grip the rifling better. Test rounds dropped into the chamber fine so all seems ok there. If that doesn't help I have access to a .359 sizing die and might try that (vs .358 I have been using), and if there is no improvement then I'll wait until summer and see how they do with the warmer temperatures then.

It was recommended to me to try hand-lubing some bullets with lithium grease and see what that does, any thoughts on that?

The amount of leading I have cleans completely out with 10-20 brush strokes after firing 50-100 rounds, so I don't want to make a mountain out of a mole-hill here.

[Andy]

Well I said I would try these loads out in warmer weather and update the thread accordingly and I just had a chance to do that last week.

The result was that I got actual leading this time, now I really realize what leading looks like. There were streaks of obvious, thick, lead in the barrel grooves (most severe toward the muzzle) and the leading problem was far worse than this winter. This didn't clean out of the barrel with 30+ strokes with a brush and I finally had to wrap chore-boy copper around a brush and it took another 15 with that to get it out.

Unfortunately forgot to check for a lube star before I wiped the gun down.

This was with a variety of rounds with the same powder/primer and different lube/sizing options. Variations included: sized/unsized, whitestar 50/50 beeswax/xlox vs liquid alox, water cooled vs air cooled.

One of the unsized bullet rounds would not go into battery with any amount of force and was nearly impossible to rack the slide back on (couldn't do it by hand at all) so I think I'll avoid unsized bullets from this mold in this gun in the future.

Couldn't chrono the loads because my chrono battery died seconds before I began shooting (of course after I had already checked it and set it up) and I didn't have a spare, so that's a new thing to add to the range bag list.


I've had a few months to read about things more since I started this thread and in going back through everything I feel like one of the obvious things I ought to be trying next is sizing to .357 instead of .358 like I have been. The first post has my barrel slug sizes, but .357 would put me at roughly .0015 larger than lands vs the .0025 larger I am right now. Intuitively, this seems like it could help with the leading issue, what do you guys think?

[bcp477]

Here is something that occurred to me, regarding the leading in the OP's Lone Wolf barrel. Has he broken in the barrel with jacketed or plated bullets, before trying cast ? It sounds as if perhaps this was not the case.

The load(s) he is testing, as we all know, is a light load. The boolit alloy is not too soft. It sounds to me as if he's got the sizing right. He is using good lube, popular with cast boolit shooters. So, IMHO, these things don't seem to be the culprits.

I have had a couple of 9mm pistols that would lead stubbornly, for no apparent reason. Finally realized that the barrels must of had minor machine marks, etc., which contributed to leading. Running 500 - 700 rounds of jacketed through the barrels solved the problem.

I strongly suggest that the OP put down the cast for now..... and break in the barrel of his G33 with something like 500-1000 jacketed pills. THEN try the cast boolits.

[Boolit_Head]

Check to make sure the load is crimped enough that you don't get set back. Push one into the bench to make sure the crimp holds the bullet firmly. The 9mm has a small enough case that setback can cause much higher pressures quickly. Although if you look at the loads the competition shooters are running for 9 major in comped guns almost all are above the usual load data.

[Andy]

Thanks for the idea boolit head. I have gone through a pretty thorough check to make sure I'm not getting any bullet setback though, here is what I did:

- load 10 rounds in magazine,
- fire 8 rounds leaving the last round unchambered and still in the mag
- load 9 rounds on top of that
- fire 8 rounds again
- repeated the above so that the same round had sat in the mag for 24+ firings
- checked round and it was within 2 thousandths of where it started

I'm new to reloading so I could have something wrong, but my understanding is this means my crimp is adequate.

[Boolit_Head]

Set back may not necessarily occur in the magazine. The test you did while laudable only proved a bullet sitting in a magazine won't set back. The forces cambering a round are much greater and could cause the bullet to set back in the case without adequate crimp. One test I do one I get my OAL and crimp set is to push a loaded round or two nose first into the bench to see if I can move the bullet back. If the crimp is firm you can use pretty good pressure and the bullet won't move.

[Zaneiel]

My favorite 9mm bullet is the Lee 356-124 TC ( Tumble Lube ). Size .357 and cast from air cooled wheel weights.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/366...ProductFinding

Note that in many cases the .357 die barely touches it.

The 120 would also be an excellent choice.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/241...ProductFinding
That was my go to boolit as well, that and 7.5 grains of blue dot.. made a mini magnum that was accurate as all heck!

[Andy]

Sorry for the delay in responding,

boolithead thanks for the thoughts. My understanding was that the forces on the last round in a magazine were greater than pushing a bullet by hand into something so that's why I went through what I did. I don't know if that is true but that is my assumption with the test. For what it is worth I have also tried to push a bullet back into a loaded round against a bench and was unable to move it by hand so I think I'm good in either case there.

bcp I appreciate the idea on breaking in the barrel. That is something that very well could matter from what I have read. I did shoot roughly 100 jacketed through before switching to lead (made sure to remove all copper fouling first). This barrel looks absolutely pristine though, and since it is only a few inches long I can get a fairly good look at it from an angle. I know these problems can be smaller than the eye can see but man it looks good compared to any other barrel I look at that isn't causing similar problems.

I don't want to buy jacketed bullets for this as I have caught the casting bug, any way to confirm if this is the cause of the problem?

[Forrest r]

Seeings how you've caught the casting bug you might consider catching the pc'ing bug.

Nothing more than range scrap lead/hill picking/berm lead that has been cast and pc'd. Then sized to .356 with either 5.5gr of longshot or power pistol pushing the mihec boolit.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/9mmtaurus_zpsnlqcm8kg.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/9mmtaurus_zpsnlqcm8kg.jpg.html)

That taurus pt111 has had nothing but those pc'd .356" bullets ran thru it, no jacketed, no plated, no plain cast lead. I also have a springfield ro in 9mm that has had nothing but .356" pc'd (3 different cast/pc'd boolits) boolits ran thru it also. No jacketed, no plated, no bbl break-in, nothing.

I have yet to experience any leading in those 9mm's or a tc contender bbl in 9mm, all the boolits are cast with range lead, pc'd and sized to .356".

Playing around with the contender 9mm bbl & pc'd 150gr hb boolits @ 50yds.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/358709mm_zps9110adbe.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/358709mm_zps9110adbe.jpg.html)

Pc'd bullets are as accurate as any other cast boolet and the same alloy/pc can be driven with loads that are anything from mild to wild. No need for a soft alloy for lite loads and a hard alloy for heavy loads. 1 alloy & pc and will work with a wide range of firearms/velocities/pressures/loads.

Same range lead & pc, plinking boolits for the 308 @ 50yds.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/50ampflier_zpsaadf309a.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/50ampflier_zpsaadf309a.jpg.html)

44mag plinking loads @25yds with the same range lead/pc.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/200gwcs_zps072309fe.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/200gwcs_zps072309fe.jpg.html)

Same range lead & pc in a new 686 (bbl has only had pc'd cast bullets ran thru it/no jacketed bbl break-in). Figured I'd start @ 50ft and then re-test any loads that looked promising @25yds and 50yds. Haven't been able to get much range time in with it yet (3 trips to the range, 1st trip was just to test the 686 for function), but I did manage to come up with these.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/keepers_zpsrmfa629l.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/keepers_zpsrmfa629l.jpg.html)

Anyway, just something to think about. No bbl break-in, no over sized boolits, no hard alloys or special lubes and most importantly no leading in any firearm I've tried any pc'd boolit in.

Good luck

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

I went the PC route in my G17 with factory barrel almost identical load to Forest r
I am running a Lee 356-120TC air soft BB shake method powder coated sized to .356 and loaded over 5.6gr power pistol I can feel no difference between rounds if I load factory in half the mag and my powder coated in the other half , my boolits ready to load weigh in at 124gr on my scale

I was loading for a few other 9mm handguns , and they were working fins with just a little leading nothing that a few strokes of a brush with chore boy on it didn't remove but I would also smoke up the indoor range with my lube , the powder coat gets rid of the smoke and makes for a barrel that is clean when I am done shooting

[Andy]

Sep 15 update:

Hate to have such a simple resolution after all this time, but the cause of the leading was old lube left in the sizer that I borrowed. It was 50/50 beeswax/alox in there but in retrospect it was ancient by the looks of it. I put fresh lube in the top of the sizer when I got it but the lube groove is so small on these it took probably 500 bullets to get to the fresh stuff, I thought I was using new lube the whole time but just didn't know what it should look like. I had made a bunch of loads and was trying them in order over the summer, when I finally got around to the .358 sized bullets that had fresh lube in them everything shot fine.

This was one of the first things I cast for so I just didn't know the difference in the look of old vs new lube until I finally got the new stuff running through it. I appreciate everyone's help and wish it wasn't such a simple mistake, now I know better though.

[tazman]

At least you figured it out. Now you know what you need to continue doing.