Accuracy Expectations at 25 yards with cast bullets

[alexanderkidd]

Wondering what 'typical' groups are like from a handgun rest @ 25 yards?

Have been shooting a Vaquero and Blackhawk .38 special with my own various cast bullet loads. 4" groups is about the best I've been able to muster with cast bullets, and have no tried any jacketed loads. More typical is in the 6" range for groups. Seems like things could be better but I have no standard to judge by.

My 1911 will do 2-3" with cast bullet loads thus far, which seems acceptable to me given it's a homebrew bullet...

[Tatume]

One inch at 25 yards is typical from my revolvers. Some do much better, less than one half inch.

[alexanderkidd]

One inch at 25 yards is typical from my revolvers. Some do much better, less than one half inch.

Are you using a machine rest (Ransom) or just a 'normal' one?

[44man]

i never shoot less then 50 yards and many groups are down to 1/2" there and out to 100 yards.

[Thumbcocker]

In my expereince a person needs to know their ability with a known accurate gun and load. Then if you are doing your part and the gun and load are not doing their part you know where to start. I do my best shooting when I know that I am the weak link in the gun, load, shooter, system. If I get a gun that will not shoot well with a reasonable amount of load development or with known accurate laods and boolits, it goes down the road. Life is to short to mess with stubborn guns that won't shoot.

[220]

My stock 686 off sandbags at 25m is around 2" for 10 shots with most reasonable loads.
If I fit a 2x scope it shrinks groups to around 1.5" Im sure something like a ransom rest would probably bring it down to 1"

Regardless of if im shooting rifle or pistol I find a 22lr a great help, if I cant shoot a group with the loads/gun Im using I will grab a 22lr and shoot a few groups just to make sure it is the load/gun and not the shooter that is giving trouble.

[williamwaco]

Wondering what 'typical' groups are like from a handgun rest @ 25 yards?

Have been shooting a Vaquero and Blackhawk .38 special with my own various cast bullet loads. 4" groups is about the best I've been able to muster with cast bullets, and have no tried any jacketed loads. More typical is in the 6" range for groups. Seems like things could be better but I have no standard to judge by.

My 1911 will do 2-3" with cast bullet loads thus far, which seems acceptable to me given it's a homebrew bullet...

That is the best most people can do with any gun/load with factory sights.

If you scope it and put it on sandbags you should get around one to one and one half inch average for say five six shot groups. You will also find the your best group will be around half the size of your average group. So, if your average is 2.5", you will occasionally see a 1.25".

[alexanderkidd]

That is the best most people can do with any gun/load with factory sights.

If you scope it and put it on sandbags you should get around one to one and one half inch average for say five six shot groups. YOu will also find the your best group will be around half your average groups.

Yes, just the factory adjustable sights on the Blackhawk, fixed combat sights on the 1911, and gutter/blade sight on the Vaquero. Looks like I have some load development to do on the .38s!

[Thumbcocker]

I have found some .357's to be a bit temperamental especially with reduced loads. Using .357 brass generally gives better accuracy with .38 level loads than .38 brass. At least in my experience.

[Jupiter7]

Factory 4 5/8" Blackhawk with Lyman 454424 over 6.5grs bullseye will regularly print 2" freehand. I'm most consistent with this gun. My STI Eagle in .40 will do 1" groups from a rest with Mihec 190 and 5.6grs AA5.

[cbrick]

I'm not trying to be a smart a** so please don't take it that way, it's just that I have no way to know how much revolver experience you have. 6 inches at 25 yards is pretty poor and most any revolver with even mediocre loads should be able to do better.

It sounds very much like a shooter problem. That single action revolver is the most grip sensitive action type there is. If you change your grip on it in the slightest from the previous shot you have changed the point of impact. Work on your grip consistency and see if the groups don't get better.

Rick

[alexanderkidd]

I'm not trying to be a smart a** so please don't take it that way, it's just that I have no way to know how much revolver experience you have. 6 inches at 25 yards is pretty poor and most any revolver with even mediocre loads should be able to do better.

It sounds very much like a shooter problem. That single action revolver is the most grip sensitive action type there is. If you change your grip on it in the slightest from the previous shot you have changed the point of impact. Work on your grip consistency and see if the groups don't get better.

Rick

No offense taken. I have done a lot of Single Action Revolver shooting, but it's mostly been oriented towards action shooting (draw from holster, shoot pie plate at 10 yards, repeat). Shooting from a rest is new to me, hence trying to figure out if I have an ammunition problem or if something else is going wrong.

Groupings are much tighter with my auto, so I'm just trying to ascertain whether it's a load problem or my technique.

[dubber123]

I've been regularly getting 1" or less groups at my 26 yd. range, the longest I have available until my field gets mowed. This is with basically stock S&W's or F/A revolvers. Keep shooting, your groups will improve.

[white eagle]

Accuracy Expectations at 25 yards with cast bullets Wondering what 'typical' groups are like from a handgun rest @ 25 yards?

couldn't tell ya I only shoot 50-100 yds at the range

[Tatume]

One inch at 25 yards is typical from my revolvers. Some do much better, less than one half inch.


Are you using a machine rest (Ransom) or just a 'normal' one?

Neither. I have a Ransom rest but I can easily out shoot it. Also, I've found that store bought pistol rests don't shoot true and can damage the gun, particularly the grip panels.

[rintinglen]

With out a machine rest, scope, or a keyboard, all of which combined serve to inordinately tighten groups, you can hope to average 2-3 inches at 25 yards.

You may do better, and the gun certainly should but that is not the average that you can expect. Sometimes, we here on the boards get a little too exuberant in our claims, remembering that one really good group, but ignoring the several other mediocre groups we shot before and after. 1 inch groups at 25 yards from a stock revolver not in a PROPERLY set up Ransom rest with iron sights is not a reasonable average to strive for.

[dubber123]

With out a machine rest, scope, or a keyboard, all of which combined serve to inordinately tighten groups, you can hope to average 2-3 inches at 25 yards.

You may do better, and the gun certainly should but that is not the average that you can expect. Sometimes, we here on the boards get a little too exuberant in our claims, remembering that one really good group, but ignoring the several other mediocre groups we shot before and after. 1 inch groups at 25 yards from a stock revolver not in a PROPERLY set up Ransom rest with iron sights is not a reasonable average to strive for.


I think any good quality revolver should hold 2" or less at 25 yds. after load development. Other than maybe my snubbies, I don't think I have any that won't meet that standard. Load development is important, not all boolit/bullets are created equal, and some of the old touted stand bys I find mediocre at best. I haven't been shooting too many different revolvers lately, only a S&W m14 and a F/A .357, but I don't think I have fired a 2+" group in a while. I believe most good quality guns are capable of that or better, it's up to the loader/shooter.

[cbrick]

With out a machine rest, scope, or a keyboard, all of which combined serve to inordinately tighten groups, you can hope to average 2-3 inches at 25 yards.

You may do better, and the gun certainly should but that is not the average that you can expect. Sometimes, we here on the boards get a little too exuberant in our claims, remembering that one really good group, but ignoring the several other mediocre groups we shot before and after. 1 inch groups at 25 yards from a stock revolver not in a PROPERLY set up Ransom rest with iron sights is not a reasonable average to strive for.

All that is probably true for some but it's a pretty poor blank across the board statement.

I can out shoot a ransom rest easily, I've never gotten good groups using one. Nor have I ever shrank my groups with a keyboard and it's insulting for someone that can't do it to insinuate that others can't either and if they say they do they did it only with a keyboard.

Rick

[**oneshot**]

I've not really noticed a difference with cast vs jacketed in my revolvers. Shooting a revolver off a rest is a learned art. I use a front rest to support the frame just ahead of the trigger guard. I rest my forearms right behind my wrists on sandbags. You yourself need to find the sweet spot for consistant angle/grip placement from shot to shot. Don't rest the butt of the gun on a sandbag as i will change POI from shot to shot. If you need to rest the rear to help keep steady, build yourself a steep angled support with a harder foam (I use dense inkstamper foam) for the part that contacts the butt. Only the leading edge of the butt should hit the foam. The steep angle allows the revolvers recoil to leave the rest and rotate in your hand like it should. I've tried the pistol rests that are sold as such but the angle isn't steep enough to allow the gun to be free after recoil starts.
Try a load you know is good, jacketed or cast and play with the rest positions to see what works.

[williamwaco]

I've not really noticed a difference with cast vs jacketed in my revolvers. Shooting a revolver off a rest is a learned art. I use a front rest to support the frame just ahead of the trigger guard. I rest my forearms right behind my wrists on sandbags. You yourself need to find the sweet spot for consistant angle/grip placement from shot to shot. Don't rest the butt of the gun on a sandbag as i will change POI from shot to shot. If you need to rest the rear to help keep steady, build yourself a steep angled support with a harder foam (I use dense inkstamper foam) for the part that contacts the butt. Only the leading edge of the butt should hit the foam. The steep angle allows the revolvers recoil to leave the rest and rotate in your hand like it should. I've tried the pistol rests that are sold as such but the angle isn't steep enough to allow the gun to be free after recoil starts.
Try a load you know is good, jacketed or cast and play with the rest positions to see what works.


You got Pix?

[Lonegun1894]

Last time out a few days ago, I got a 5" group with my Ruger SP101 2 1/4" .357 Mag at 50 yds offhand. With a rest I can usually do about 1.5-2" @25yds with this gun, and most of mine have a longer sight radius, making shooting them easier. Most of mine do 1-1.5" at 25yds, and a couple do better than that, with the best two doing that at 100 yds. Like has been said though, the single action revolvers grip is sensitive to grip, and that includes the way it recoils. So same exact starting grip, same position, same tightness of grip, same recoil, same everything. Anything changes and your POI and group size changes. What helped my groups is gripping the gun with my right hand, and cocking with my left, every time. If possible, have a known good shooter watch what you're doing and watch for any changes in your grip, position, etc. The more consistent you are, the more consistently your revolver will shoot. After that, it is just a matter of trigger time and a lot of fine tuning your technique. You will see some huge improvements, and then the improvements slow down. You still keep improving, but it just isn't as dramatic. Stick with it, and soon you're doing at 100 yds what you're currently doing at 25yds. And then it is 5" @100, and then 4", and then, it may be 4", or 2", or maybe less, but you hit a wall and the increments are in 1/16" instead of 1-2", but that's what keeps us all working to improve and never give up.

[dubber123]

And if you are relatively new to handgunning, stick with it. If you have someone local who is good at it, don't be afraid to hit them up for a little coaching, most shooters are happy to help. Don't bother asking someone who isn't good, as they are just as happy to share their bad habits with you.

My first "good" gun was a police trade in 4" S&W model 10 with the tapered barrel. I shot many different loads, and if I got 4" at 25 yards off a solid rest, I was lucky. Some groups ran 6"+. I KNEW it wasn't me. Well, I kept shooting it, finally got into handloading so I could afford to shoot more, and slowly groups tightened. Lo and behold my inaccurate gun is really a sub 1" gun. Some of the poor grouping was surely the factory junk I was shooting, but 99% was surely me. Keep at it.

[Thumbcocker]

Dry firing is your friend.

[Cornbread]

From a rest of some type like sandbags etc. I expect 1" - 1.5" outside circumcircle from my guns using cast with 1.5" being more the average than 1" simply because I shoot mostly .452 caliber bullets. At that size if you have two side by side but not touching the outside circumcircle is already at 1" and I know you are supposed to calculate groups by center point not by outside circumcircle but it's just easier and quicker for me to judge my groups this way. I know all the guns I own are capable of this, some days though especially if I drink caffeine the best I can do is much larger than the best the guns can do. Caffeine and I are not friends.

[slughammer]

"................Shooting a revolver off a rest is a learned art. I use a front rest to support the frame just ahead of the trigger guard. I rest my forearms right behind my wrists on sandbags. You yourself need to find the sweet spot for consistant angle/grip placement from shot to shot. Don't rest the butt of the gun on a sandbag as i will change POI from shot to shot.....
Sounds right to me. I've shot plenty of groups off of bags similar to your technique. I don't use the rear bags under my wrist; perhaps my front bag is lower than yours. (My forearms are touching the bench). Same style, different shooters, repeatable results.

Only three other pieces of advice for the OP.
Wrap your sandbag with a piece of leather to keep the blast at the cylinder gap from blowing holes in it.
If the load is good and your technique is too, then fix the gun.
Once you have a reasonable load and an accurate gun, stand up and shoot.

[Cornbread]

Second the idea of putting something down to protect the sandbags! If you forget to do this you can ruin the sandbags real quick.

[warf73]

119139
My goal is with a standing 2 handed hold, double action putting everything inside the X ring. Inside 15 yards it's very do able, at 25 yards I can keep everything inside the 9 ring or tighter. Granted that’s nothing great but I don't shoot with a rest and groups are with 5 cylinders (8 shot revolver).
I started off close and mastered each distance (3yards, 7yards, and 15yards ) before going out further.
For me I feel I've mastered a distance once I can put 40 rounds inside the X ring (5 cylinders).

Started at 3 yards which sounds close and really easy but you can still throw a group easily if you don’t pay attention. At the end of mastering that distance (same range session) go out to 7 yards and shot for a group (3 cylinders worth) and called it a day.

Next time at the range warmed up at 3 yards ( 3 cylinders) then out to the 7 yard line and started shooting there paying attention to my hand hold, foot placement, all the little things that will add up once you get out further but might not mean beans up close. Once mastered at 7 yards going out to 15 yards and shooting (3 cylinders) then call it a day.

Next time warm up with 1 cylinder at 3 yards, 3 cylinders at 7 yards. Now the jitters are gone your mind is in the right place now start shooting at 15 yards. At this distance I started have some issues (finger in to far on the trigger) that didn’t show up at the closer distances but can really be see now. It took 3 range sessions to master this distance for me.

I'm currently at the 25 yard line, warm up is 1 cylinder at 3 yards, 7 yards and 3 at 15 yards. Then I start shooting for the group at the 25 yard line.


Trigger time is your friend with the any firearm but for me a handgun it’s really needed. I'm an ok shot with a handgun, but there are others that are great shots that probly can give you better advice than what I wrote.

But....... it works for me maybe it will for you.

[osteodoc08]

A quarter is .955" across. I use it as a reference when eyeballing group measurements until I can break out the calipers.

A 2" freehand group at 25 yards is excellent to me. 2" at 50 from a bench is excellent to me. I strive for better but am very happy with that level of accuracy. I've had 1" and 1-1/2" groups with regularity at 50 yards if having a good day with a known good load.

4" at 25 yards freehand is still not bad. I'd call it average for an average shooter with an average gun. Nothing wrong with it. Keep at it and keep the load development up.

[osteodoc08]

119140119141119142

Subtracting out the .410" boolit that's a 1.16" group at 52 yards with either a Lyman 410459 or MiHa 258. Can't remember. I was using 296 IIRC.

[dtknowles]

A quarter is .955" across. I use it as a reference when eyeballing group measurements until I can break out the calipers.

A 2" freehand group at 25 yards is excellent to me. 2" at 50 from a bench is excellent to me. I strive for better but am very happy with that level of accuracy. I've had 1" and 1-1/2" groups with regularity at 50 yards if having a good day with a known good load.

4" at 25 yards freehand is still not bad. I'd call it average for an average shooter with an average gun. Nothing wrong with it. Keep at it and keep the load development up.

Average shooter around here can't clean a rack of 6 ea. 8 inch plates at 25 yards with 10 shots. That's from watching them and assuming that the few than can are above average.

Tim

[44man]

Off hand escapes me now at my age. It only takes a few years to get the shakes.
My suggestion is to NOT GET OLD! :mrgreen:
However from the bench I have made cast shoot better then jacketed so I can say for a fact, cast boolits do shoot.

[tazman]

Off hand escapes me now at my age. It only takes a few years to get the shakes.
My suggestion is to NOT GET OLD! :mrgreen:
However from the bench I have made cast shoot better then jacketed so I can say for a fact, cast boolits do shoot.

I hear that. I am there now and in the process of getting shakier. I am just glad I can still shoot the pistols and hit adequately sized targets.
For me a 2 inch group at 15 yards offhand means I was having a good day. My revolver is capable of much better.

[ole 5 hole group]

With out a machine rest, scope, or a keyboard, all of which combined serve to inordinately tighten groups, you can hope to average 2-3 inches at 25 yards.

You may do better, and the gun certainly should but that is not the average that you can expect. Sometimes, we here on the boards get a little too exuberant in our claims, remembering that one really good group, but ignoring the several other mediocre groups we shot before and after. 1 inch groups at 25 yards from a stock revolver not in a PROPERLY set up Ransom rest with iron sights is not a reasonable average to strive for.



All that is probably true for some but it's a pretty poor blank across the board statement.

I can out shoot a ransom rest easily, I've never gotten good groups using one. Nor have I ever shrank my groups with a keyboard and it's insulting for someone that can't do it to insinuate that others can't either and if they say they do they did it only with a keyboard.Rick

No disrespect intended to anyone, so don't anyone take it as such.

Rick, seems you took that quote personally. 1st off I think Rintinglen was spot-on and 2nd - Rintinglen advised a PROPERLY set up Ransom Rest. If properly set-up and operated, I seriously doubt you can shoot better than a properly set up and operated mechanical rest. You might be able to match it at 25 yards but that would be about it - 50 yards, never seen a good marksmen do it yet. Not properly set-up and operated - yup, they can be beat.

I shoot both indoors and outdoors quite often and see maybe a couple hundred different non-competitive shooters on the line through out the year. 95% of them don't shoot small groups, so I would say the majority of non-competitive shooters can't consistently shoot 1 inch groups or smaller at 25 yards. 2 to 3 inch groups at 25 yards is very good for most pistol/revolver non-competitive shooters off the bench, as it seems not all the bullets want to play nice together - calling a shot out and not measuring it in the group is not allowed.

Most non-competitive shooters I know will tell you the size of their smallest group shot but while at the range they just don't seem to be able to duplicate that group upon demand - most times not even close.

As far as keyboard commandos - well, I've read some posts on forums over the years advising they could consistently shoot under 2 inches off hand at 50 yards - well, I see no reason why they shouldn't be shooting in competitive State matches and possess an NRA High Master's Classification and probably a world record to boot. I just take it with a grain of salt, as I've been there and I know that one doesn't possess a Master Class Classification Card and then have a bad day and shoot Marksman scores.

Most Expert Classified competitive shooters and all Master and High Master's keep 10-rounds within 3.3 inches at 25 yards in both timed and rapid fire. 50 yards the Expert will keep everything within 8 inches and the Master's will do better - some a lot better.

Everyone gets better with a lot of quality trigger time - so just find the time & money and shoot more.:)

[robertbank]

I shoot both indoors and outdoors quite often and see maybe a couple hundred different non-competitive shooters on the line through out the year. 95% of them don't shoot small groups, so I would say the majority of non-competitive shooters can't consistently shoot 1 inch groups or smaller at 25 yards. 2 to 3 inch groups at 25 yards is very good for most pistol/revolver non-competitive shooters off the bench, as it seems not all the bullets want to play nice together - calling a shot out and not measuring it in the group is not allowed.


As far as keyboard commandos - well, I've read some posts on forums over the years advising they could consistently shoot under 2 inches off hand at 50 yards - well, I see no reason why they shouldn't be shooting in competitive State matches and possess an NRA High Master's Classification and probably a world record to boot. I just take it with a grain of salt, as I've been there and I know that one doesn't possess a Master Class Classification Card and then have a bad day and shoot Marksman scores.

Most Expert Classified competitive shooters and all Master and High Master's keep 10-rounds within 3.3 inches at 25 yards in both timed and rapid fire. 50 yards the Expert will keep everything within 8 inches and the Master's will do better - some a lot better.


Thanks I was beginning to think I should take up checkers. Not getting old would help. Patience, eyes and patience ends early...besides shooting the equivalent of bullseye shooting is much the same as watching paint dry IMHO ...just not my thing.

Take Care

Bob

[cbrick]

Well ole 5 hole, I'll try and take your advice and shoot more. :mrgreen:

As for all the rest, I do have NRA Master classification in four different categories, AAA in a couple of others plus more than a few NRA State and NRA National Championship trophy's including individual and team entries.

Don't know about 25 yards and under, in long range handgun shooting starts at 50 and goes to 200 meters. No high master either, master class is as high as there is.

As for the ransom rest it's not just me, wasn't anyone else at the club could do as well with it either. Set up correctly? Yeah, I think so. Besides, I never did generate much interest in what it could do, was far more interested in what I could do, can't compete with the gun in a machine, had to have it in your hand.

Rick

[220]

119139
My goal is with a standing 2 handed hold, double action putting everything inside the X ring. Inside 15 yards it's very do able, at 25 yards I can keep everything inside the 9 ring or tighter. Granted that’s nothing great but I don't shoot with a rest and groups are with 5 cylinders (8 shot revolver).

We use a similar target minus the head for some matches here in Aus.
4 second series at 10y from a holster I can hold the 10 ring, same with 15 second series at 25y, 6 second series at 25y Im happy to hold the 8 ring.
This is with loads that I know will hold the 10 ring at 50y and go very close to holding the X ring. Standing is a very different scenario to benching a gun throw in drawing from a holster and time constraints and its even more difficult.
12 shot group at 25m, I blame myself for the high shot
http://madmick3006.com/ahngallery/upload/files/2014-03/2c574503.jpg

[warf73]

We use a similar target minus the head for some matches here in Aus.
4 second series at 10y from a holster I can hold the 10 ring, same with 15 second series at 25y, 6 second series at 25y Im happy to hold the 8 ring.
This is with loads that I know will hold the 10 ring at 50y and go very close to holding the X ring. Standing is a very different scenario to benching a gun throw in drawing from a holster and time constraints and its even more difficult.
12 shot group at 25m, I blame myself for the high shot
http://madmick3006.com/ahngallery/upload/files/2014-03/2c574503.jpg

Very nice group and with time constraints makes it more inpressive.

[220]

Very nice group and with time constraints makes it more inpressive.
I wish, lol pic is what it will do off a bench. Fairly typical group for my 686, target is a Olympic 10m air pistol target so the black is about 2 1/4" in size. I like using them for load testing as they take up little room and easy to transport home to record details.

Another thing that has been mentioned and worth considering is how people measure group size, best edge, centre to centre or worst edge. It can make nearly 1" difference to group size with the bigger cals, I measure on centres simply because it is how I have always done rifle groups. I think nearly all pistol competitions use best edge scoring so inside to inside does have some justification with pistols.

[TCLouis]

alexanderkidd

How many boolits, powders, loads have you tried?

Some guns are very persnicketty, others like all loads and some better..

I have had both and the persnickety ones are a pain in the kister.

[tazman]

alexanderkidd

How many boolits, powders, loads have you tried?

Some guns are very persnicketty, others like all loads and some better..

I have had both and the persnickety ones are a pain in the kister.

I hear you and agree.
I currently have a revolver that shoots everything I have stuck in the chambers well and a few loads great. I am not a good enough shot to get the best out of it though.
Perhaps with optics and a good rest setup I might be able to approach it's capabilities but I am getting too shaky with age and my eyesight is too poor.

[MT Gianni]

Dry firing is your friend.

There is the old adage that practice makes perfect and I disagree with it. Perfect practice makes perfect. Sometimes a good coach makes all the difference in the world.

[44man]

Rick is right, my friends and I all will out shoot a Ransom Rest all day, just with bags or from Creedmore.
Where I am a stickler is your practice, If the load does not shoot, you can shoot a billion rounds a week and not get any better. The first things come first, make your gun shoot one hole at 25 or 1/2" at 50 from a rest and then go off hand. I have never learned to steer a boolit.
If you get 4" or more at 25 from a rest, just what can you do off hand?
The best shooters only shoot the best loads FIRST.
Try shooting 200 meters or out to 500 meters with a 25 yard, 4" shooter.

[44man]

There is the old adage that practice makes perfect and I disagree with it. Perfect practice makes perfect. Sometimes a good coach makes all the difference in the world.
This is true but you left out how accurate the loads are. Every shot must count but if they do not go to the sights, you are digging a hole to China with a teaspoon.

[dtknowles]

Rick is right, my friends and I all will out shoot a Ransom Rest all day, just with bags or from Creedmore.
Where I am a stickler is your practice, If the load does not shoot, you can shoot a billion rounds a week and not get any better. The first things come first, make your gun shoot one hole at 25 or 1/2" at 50 from a rest and then go off hand. I have never learned to steer a boolit.
If you get 4" or more at 25 from a rest, just what can you do off hand?
The best shooters only shoot the best loads FIRST.
Try shooting 200 meters or out to 500 meters with a 25 yard, 4" shooter.

For most people waiting until they can get 1/2 inch groups at 50 yards before they shoot offhand will mean they never shoot offhand. Most people do not have a pistol or revolver that can do that so all the load development in the world won't fix it and if they did they might not have the bench rest skills to shoot that small a group.

You can learn to shoot offhand just fine with a gun that shoots 2 inch bench rest groups at 25 yards. Take that gun and shoot at a 6 inch bullseye at 25 yards and once you can keep them all in the black start worrying about keeping them more in the center.

Tim

[35 Whelen]

With out a machine rest, scope, or a keyboard, all of which combined serve to inordinately tighten groups, you can hope to average 2-3 inches at 25 yards.

You may do better, and the gun certainly should but that is not the average that you can expect. Sometimes, we here on the boards get a little too exuberant in our claims, remembering that one really good group, but ignoring the several other mediocre groups we shot before and after. 1 inch groups at 25 yards from a stock revolver not in a PROPERLY set up Ransom rest with iron sights is not a reasonable average to strive for.

^^^THIS^^^

Folks saying they consistently shoot 1" groups at 25 yds. and/or say they can hold a handgun more steady than a Ransom rest are misleading, at best, to the uninitiated handgun shooter.


i never shoot less then 50 yards and many groups are down to 1/2" there and out to 100 yards.

Statements such as the one above likewise are misleading because he doesn't bother to mention that his revolvers are scoped.

Learning to shoot a revolver is an art that requires constant practice. I am blessed to be able to shoot anytime I want, as much as I want and normally do. As such it shows when I go a few weeks without doing any meaningful shooting. Last year I shot my SA .44 Special almost daily with most of the shooting being at 50 yds. where I have a 7" x 11" steel plate mounted to a steel rod. There were a handful of occasions when I was able to keep all my shots in a 4" +/- circle at that range, but to make a blanket statement that "I shoot 4" groups offhand at 50 yds." would be misleading at best. Let's be real guys.

I'm almost finished with Elmer Keith's great book Sixguns. I personally think every aspiring handgun shooter should read it as it cuts through the BS that has flourished with the advent of internet forums.

35W

[44man]

My revolvers have red dots now for hunting but back in the day we shot 1/2" groups at fifty with open sights from Creedmore.
The S&W 29 and the Rugers would do it. Best the SRH and SBH Hunter.
I still say if your loads do not shoot, you will not get better.
No, I don't claim to shoot 4" at 50 offhand anymore. I am talking a rest only. Yet there is a day when you can hold so beat this119494 3/4" group at 100 off hand, .44 mag with a red dot. Then a guy questioned me so I took five shots down and shot them from my Vaquero at 50 from Creedmore and got this. 119495
Never tell me a 4" group at 25 will shoot better with practice.
The revolver IS an art but it is at the bench before you ever pull a trigger.
I stand by my saying that if the gun will not shoot you will never shoot either. I have dropped deer DRT at over 100 yards off hand with the Vaquero because I made it shoot.

[PAT303]

i never shoot less then 50 yards and many groups are down to 1/2" there and out to 100 yards.
Do you shoot SA?,if you do how do you cock the hammer,by reaching over with your thumb with your non grip hand?. Pat

[cbrick]

Do you shoot SA?,if you do how do you cock the hammer,by reaching over with your thumb with your non grip hand?. Pat

Considering Jim is primarily a Ruger man single action would be the order of the day yes. In my case the vast majority of my revolver competition was with FA's so again, yes single action.

Yes, always cock the hammer with your off hand. A huge part of revolver accuracy is grip, once you have placed the grip properly in your hand never change that grip by cocking with the same hand.

Rick

[PAT303]

Rick is right, my friends and I all will out shoot a Ransom Rest all day, just with bags or from Creedmore.
Where I am a stickler is your practice, If the load does not shoot, you can shoot a billion rounds a week and not get any better. The first things come first, make your gun shoot one hole at 25 or 1/2" at 50 from a rest and then go off hand. I have never learned to steer a boolit.
If you get 4" or more at 25 from a rest, just what can you do off hand?
The best shooters only shoot the best loads FIRST.
Try shooting 200 meters or out to 500 meters with a 25 yard, 4" shooter.
Can you give us some idea's as what is needed from the bench to get our guns to shoot?,one thing I've found with my 586 is it won't shoot anything unless it has a good amount of case tension with just a slight crimp. Pat

[44man]

Can you give us some idea's as what is needed from the bench to get our guns to shoot?,one thing I've found with my 586 is it won't shoot anything unless it has a good amount of case tension with just a slight crimp. Pat
This is true and why I use a harder lead, I water drop WW boolits so they withstand case tension.
I use Felix lube and there are a few others that work good like Satan's, MML and LBT soft blue. You must do a lube accuracy test, it will surprise you.
Fit to groove is important. Crimp should just be folded to the bottom of the crimp groove, never more.
Next is the hammer spring, I use the Wolfe 26# variable now. I used to watch my accuracy degrade when shooting IHMSA so I bought packs of 10 springs from Ruger and changed every year until I switched to Wolfe. Never lighten a hammer spring, primers need a certain impact. Ruger springs take a set.
Then the primer, I use the Fed 150 in the .44 and .45 Colt with 296, cuts groups by 2/3's. Larger cases like the .475 and up need the 155 for best accuracy. Shooting the S&W .45 ACP revolver showed the LP primer was too much so we tested SP brass and groups shrunk instantly. It carried over to the 1911 and that even shot better. You do not want boolit movement from the primer pressure. Even a slippery lube is no good.
I can't hold still resting a revolver like many do so I rest the end of the barrel on a bag and the butt on a firm bag. Rear bag tension needs to be the same as much as you can get it.
Case tension needs to be as even as you can get it, I can measure seating pressure and sort loads. New brass is the worst and tests have shown you will be all over the paper. Loose tension can hit 10" from a tighter case. I used my RCBS dies to make compression dies for BP and other stuff.
I had BR collar dies made for the .44, real pain to use but I found Hornady New Dimension dies worked as good. I would never buy Lee or Lyman dies. I will never use the LFCD either.
Many claim dead soft will shoot at below a certain velocity, don't buy into it. You need to keep the boolit as it was cast the entire trip so I tested many of those pipsqueak loads and found 28 to 30 BHN was needed with fast powders. The instant "thump" is too much for soft lead even with reduced overall pressures.
Keith boolits need to be hard to allow cylinder alignment so the shoulder does not get wiped at the cone. Soft Keith boolits slump all out of shape.
Don't tighten a cylinder so there is no play, even fitting a Belt Mountain pin too tight will ruin accuracy and could cause cone and rifling wear. A gun with no cylinder play at all MUST have perfect chamber alignment or you will destroy it. The throats, cone and rifling will wear oblong. Do not trust a line bored gun if fit tight. I have shot many of Jack Huntingtons guns and most have more cylinder play then factory.
Today, the most accurate revolvers are the BFR's.
I forgot grip, the sixgun should be held low and very firm so it raises your arms, NEVER, ever let it roll in your hand. The Bisley is sensitive, so is the S&W 29. No problem shooting a 1/2" group, set the gun down to change a target, pick it up and shoot another 1/2" group 10" from the first, see what the gun does between shots if you let it move a little. I only shot ONE good group with a Bisley, gun hit the road in a week. My hands do not fit them.

[DougGuy]

alexanderkidd, may I ask some questions about your revolvers? You say you are shooting a Vaquero and a Blackhawk, what are the calibers of each and the barrel lengths? Are they both .357s and you are shooting .38 Special loads in the .357 cylinders?

What about the trigger return springs and the hammer springs, have you changed or modified those in any way or are both guns stock from the factory?

4" @25yds from a rest is pretty much saying that there is a LOT of room for improvement. There are several areas that may need to be addressed, some with the gun, some with the loads, and some with the shooter.

As far as the shooter goes, Rick has it right in that the SA revolver is very sensitive to grip and the shooter's hands, and Jim shoots Creedmoor so he knows full well what it takes for him to do his best, both these guys are coming from the over-the-mountain side of been there, done that, and they give expert advice. Along with what they have to say about the grip, I have found this bit of wisdom to be valuable because it works well.

When you dry fire a SA revolver, you get to see how the long hammer throw (lock time) upsets the sights when it comes crashing down onto the firing pin and the frame. About this time the overtravel in the trigger takes up and the trigger finger tends to jerk the sights to the left and down for a right handed shooter. The art in shooting a SA, is learning to incorporate the actions of the trigger and hammer into your grip so that you minimize the movement in the sights when the hammer falls. This is where dry firing is indeed your friend because it's an important tool at this stage of learning the SA. If you stand with your SA unloaded and pick a spot on a target in your home or your garage or wherever you choose to do this unloaded exercise, what do the sights do when the hammer falls? Do they jump like crazy? If they do, right there is 3" of your 4" group in a nutshell.

The Ruger trigger return springs are pretty stiff, and they cause the shooter to exert quite a bit of effort to fire the gun, and with the overtravel once the sear breaks, can jerk the sights pretty good. You can take the grips off and remove one leg of the trigger return spring and simply let it hang loose, put the grips back on and dry fire it, see if it got any easier to hold the sights still when the hammer falls. Some shooters swap in a Wolff 30oz trigger return spring at this point because it not only makes the trigger easier to pull, it greatly lessens the amount of disturbance to the sights when the hammer falls. The bottom line, you need to be able to dry fire this gun and hold the sights motionless to shoot the SA revolver properly. Not until you can do this, will you shoot good groups with ANY single action revolver regardless of caliber, make, or barrel length. After you learn to do this, with your own guns, this dry fire exercise is no longer needed, as hopefully you have by now discovered how to hold the grip of your own gun, and memorized the hold, the feeling of the perfect trigger pull, the feeling of letting the sear break without jerking the trigger afterwards fully rearward and taking up the overtravel. It's something that you just imprint in your brain and it stays with you.

The other things you can look at are with the gun itself. What are the diameter of the boolits you are shooting? Can you push them through the cylinder throats from the front easily? In a perfect world, the boolit would be .001" to .002" greater than groove diameter, and the cylinder throats would be .0005" to .001" greater than boolit diameter so that the boolit is presented to the barrel without being sized down by tight cylinder throats. This is quite common in Ruger SA revolvers to have cylinder throats smaller than you really want them. They will usually shoot factory ammo fine, but shooting cast generally requires their diameters to be addressed and at the very least, checked for size, in many cases they will need to be reamed slightly larger to shoot cast boolits well. If you are shooting .38 Special loads in a .357 cylinder, now you have an area of freebore in front of the cartridge case before the chamfer leading into the throats, which can allow the boolits to be misaligned with the throat and once this happens they get pretty distorted as they pass through the cylinder throats so even though it works, it's not the best arrangement for accuracy by any means. You may be better off working up .357 loads that will chamber the loaded round with the driving band of the boolit seated in the rear of the cylinder throats.

Then there is the forcing cone, which by all accounts is hit or miss from the factory, some are fairly smooth, some are too short and very rough with scratches and tool marks quite visible. The best you can do with that is have a smith recut the forcing cone to 11° and smooth it out. Works great for cast boolits, and works -exceptionally- well with cast boolits that are smooth sided and don't have a driving band ala Keith style SWC designs.

Finally, if there is any "thread choke" where the barrel screws into the frame, this will squeeze down the diameter of the boolits you are shooting and they will not seal in the bore, no matter how much you practice or how much load development you do, if this choke is not addressed and fixed, you will always have poor groups. Luckily on the smaller caliber Rugers, this is less of a problem because the barrel walls are much thicker than the .44 and .45 caliber barrels, and you may have no thread choke at all.

Once you have mastered the dry fire exercise and have checked the gun for correctness in cylinder throats and other dimensions, it's time to start working up loads that are accurate, in YOUR guns. Aside from the advice given here, mastering a SA revolver is not just one thing, it is a combination of things that either work together for the good, or work together to fight you if even one component of the combination is wrong, because it throws off the rest of it. It's not that hard to do, you just have to do it.

[PAT303]

44man,what style of boolit?,RN,Truncated cone,Keith?. Pat

[ErnieBishop]

Interesting thread.
Giving me a better idea how guys set up at the bench.

[Thumbcocker]

When dry firing be sure to hold the sights on target after the hammer fall. Follow through will cut group size. I would welcome a coach but never had one. Read a lot and tried stuff. Still plenty of room for improvement in my shooting.

[opos]

I'm an older (much older) guy that has shot for some 60 years...I used to be capable of some pretty nice groups with about anything I shot and did a whole lot of practice ...but now...with aging and somewhat weak eyes and all the other fun that goes with a man in his mid 70's...what would be acceptable "back then" is only a dream now...but I still enjoy shooting and just do the best I can...4" freehand for me at 25 yards is a decent group on a decent day..I don't shoot off bags or a rest..never really have as I know the gun and the ammo will outshoot me.

Interesting bit of "reality"...I used to shoot at a local indoor range where some folks that are in one branch of Federal Law Enforcement used to shoot on a regular basis...I watched 7, 10, and 15 yard shooting that was not a group..it was a "pattern"...shooting .40 semi's...I was amazed and asked the range officer about the seeming lack of ability and accuracy on the part of the shooters and he replied that they qualify at 7 and 10 yards and a "man target" with most of the shots in center mass is "good enough"...Just surprised me...I can shoot my CZ in 9mm and in .40 closer today with all my difficulties than what I was seeing.

[ole 5 hole group]

Well, just got back into town and saw this thread is still going strong. I'm going to pay more attention to your advice Rick, since your competitive shooting pedigree reads a whole lot better than mine.

I've seen a couple Ransoms set-up on a wood bench that looked pretty solid but the operator/s couldn't get it to settle in for some reason but for those that I've seen set-up right in a solid bench with a knowledgeable operator - well, getting a 1911 to repeat 10-shot groups of 1.150 to 1.325 at 50 yards is just a sight to see - just once in a lifetime for most of us. My hats off to anyone who can match or better it off a rest and a bow to the man that can put all the 1911 parts together to accomplish such a feat.

I do have a 1911 that possesses the ability to shoot groups like that - but I currently don't possess the ability to shoot that well off a rest but I can come real close to the 1911's ability from 50-foot and 25 yards rested - and yes, I know, close only counts when talking about 155mm air-bursts or atomic bombs.

Getting grip panels for a revolver might be the problem with some ransoms as well - I'm not sure how they have progressed over the years.

No doubt some can shoot groups with a revolver at 50 and 100 yards with or without optics better than most hunters can with their most reliable rifle fitted with fine optics but for the general handgun shooting public - that's one tall order to fill.

I've done some long-range shooting and I was satisfied with my groups out to 200 yards, even though they weren't usually sub-MOA groups, but when that sub-MOA did come along, it was a real treat and I normally left that target hang out there all day long for all to see and wonder about??? Now out to 500 yards - not sure whether to classify them as large groups or blow patterns. Once I got everything figured out - I could raise hell with a big target but there usually weren't too many touching bullet strikes unless I shot at that target for a hour or two.:-o

Enjoy your time on the line, as it comes to a close way too soon for some.

[cbrick]

My competitive shooting days are over. Age, 30 years with diabetes and cataracts has seen to that.

When we were building the current range about 35 years ago, before we poured the concrete slab we dug a four foot deep hole and set in a 3 foot dia. seamless 1/4" thick pipe scavenged from a pipeline project, filled in around it with concrete and poured the cement slab around it. We filled the pipe with sand to absorb any possible vibrations and welded a 1/2" steel plate to the top, to this plate we bolted the Ransom rest. Solid is an understatement. The club bought the Ransom rest and inserts for most of the common Silhouette handguns thinking this would be the ticket for load development. Many club members including me tried for months to equal the groups we were getting from Creedmoor or bench shooting and couldn't do it. The pipe & mount system is still there but the Ransom Rest hasn't been used since. It was a great idea that didn't pan out.

All that being said we weren't shooting 1911's at 25 feet, this was all for big bore long range silhouette and the guns that reflect that. What a 1911 at short range would do in the rest I couldn't say. Lot's of folks seem to swear by them for that so I guess it works for that, for us it didn't.

My only scoped shooting was from the bench doing load development. The majority of my competition shooting was open sight revolver in Creedmoor from 50 to 200 meters (218 yards). I fondly remember the days I could look downrange and actually see the targets, the good ole days.

Rick

[ErnieBishop]

That is why I use optics and field rest or prone.
My eyes are not what they used to be.
And I do not hunt or field sheet from the standing offhand position.

[41mag]

I will fully admit that my loads and revolvers are better than I am, and well they should be.

I have shot handguns most of my short 50yrs but for a while, even though never being competitive, I was shooting 3-500 rounds a week from between one and three revolvers, depending on what ammo I managed to get loaded up.

That said I fully agree with 44man that if your load ain't cutting it all the practice in the world isn't going to help you improve. What good does it do for every third or fifth round to land 3" out from where your holding? Was it you or the load?

When I get REAL serious about my loads I set up form the bench and as mentioned I rest my frame on the rest, not the barrel, nor the butt of the grip. Only thing touching anything solid is just ahead of the cylinder. I also dissected an old pair of leather work boots to use to cover up the owl ear bag on my rest. Otherwise in about a dozen shots it will be toast.

I can say that in most outings my revolvers are capable of this sort of accuracy, standing with a two hand hold at 25yds,
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?122541-Did-a-little-shootin&highlight=
8.75" Raging Bull in 454, Lee 452-300RF@1550fps,

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f285/41nag/Shooting/Cast%20Boolit%20Loading%20and%20Shooting/P1010248.jpg

Those were shot during some testing I was doing right after I started to pour my own. They will still pretty easily shoot like that, but I am the weak link. At that time I was shooting that revolver nearly weekly putting 50 or so rounds through it, or until I would get tired. Some days I could go longer some not so long, but I know when it is me and not the loads that are having an issue.

The same can be said with my 357, 41, 44 and 45 Colt. They will all shoot great groups with tailored loads, both cast and jacketed, and it took a while to get them worked up to that point. However once there it is real easy to shoot average groups while piddling around but when, as my bud calls it, I really bear down to the nitty gritty and get serious, things will fall into one big ragged hole.

I have to say that in my initial load work up for that 454 that 44man and several others gave me great advice in both my casting and my load development. I have the background in loading and shooting to put things together properly and when working with something new I am not bashful about asking questions. But simply asking the questions and knowing what to do with the answers once you get them is what makes it happen.

Since I hunt with my revolvers I feel I owe it to not only the game but to myself to hit the woods with everything being the best I can make it. With my 41 I have made shots out to just past 100yds on feral hogs that simply blew a few other hunters away. It wasn't a hail mary shot or a wonder if I can do this, they were practiced and multiple hundreds of rounds were put down range well before I ever sent one after a critter. One thing I have learned with hunting using my revolvers is, when you think you have to hold in the air over hair, your usually shooting beyond your abilities.

[44man]

44man,what style of boolit?,RN,Truncated cone,Keith?. Pat
Never a Keith, can't pull a cylinder. WLN, WFN or RNFP. truncated cone is great.
My .44 has an 11* cone so my boolit was made to try to match 11* at the ogive. I shot a 1-5/16" group of 3 at 200 yards during a drop test. Shot Creedmore.
Now that I have larger guns with a LOT of recoil, things still hold true and a Keith from any is a waste of lead.
Rick is exactly right and both of us suffer from age now. We both shot open sights to 200 meters. I shot my revolvers to 500 meters (547 yards) and hit steel.
I am failing more and more with age, I am near 77 now.
Many of my revolvers will shoot the same off hand as they do from bags because the right hold is used. Nothing works better for me as good as a Hog Leg, no other grip lets me move my hand on the grip for distance changes.

[44man]

My friend has a Dan Wesson 1911 and came to shoot. I shot it Creedmore at 50 yards and got a 1/2" group of five. I told him to keep that load but he never did. Every time he comes he changes something so it is spray and pray. I sold him my SRH and gave him loads that could hit a pop can at 200 yards but he never comes with the right loads. He even uses my boolits, comes to cast or I make them for him. Just what makes him change the load?
In the end it does not matter because I put cardboard deer targets out for him and he pokes the center out but will miss a live deer by 10 yards.
I did the work but he still thinks he can do better.
I did build a few 1911's that would poke one hole groups at 30 yards, too much work for me anymore. Lapping slides and fitting triggers and links. Had to make links from the back of mill files to fit.
Made many longer Ruger transfer bars from tool steel by hand so a 1-1/2# trigger pull would not drop the transfer bar. A real pain with hardening and tempering. I made a mistake on one when it did not fit right. Had to heat a place to change it and it broke. I should have done the hardening and tempering all over again. Don't fool with steel, Mine has gone 79,000 rounds done right.

[35 Whelen]

[QUOTE=44man;2977888]Never a Keith, can't pull a cylinder.
Now that I have larger guns with a LOT of recoil, things still hold true and a Keith from any is a waste of lead. [QUOTE]

Pure, unadulterated balderdash with brown smelly stuff oozing from all orifices.

Danger Will Robison. Seek advice elsewhere when someone tells you a Keith bullet won't work, PERIOD, and when someone tells you they're shooting 1 1/2" groups @ 200 yds. with handgun....but especially when they make both statements in the same post.

35W

[MostlyOnThePaper]

Unless the person giving the advice has won serious matches in silhouette competition, in which case it might be wise to listen.
Just because the Keith bullet was the top of the ladder 80 years ago doesn't mean it still is, necessarily.
It is all down to what level of accuracy you expect/are satisfied with.

[cbrick]

Pure, unadulterated balderdash with brown smelly stuff oozing from all orifices.

Danger Will Robison. Seek advice elsewhere when someone tells you a Keith bullet won't work, PERIOD, and when someone tells you they're shooting 1 1/2" groups @ 200 yds. with handgun....but especially when they make both statements in the same post. 35W

Not so fast, what you see in the picture is 5 shots from a 10" FA 41 mag, scoped from the bench. That target is at 150 meters (164 yards), the target size is 4 1/2" from the top of the leg to the edge of the back. Lead splatters laterally when striking steel so the group is smaller than it looks.

119886

Just because some can't do it has no bearing at all on whether someone else can. Before you call someone a liar learn how to do it yourself.

Rick

[Cornbread]

I think 35 Whelen's issue was with the absolutes taken by the poster that Kieth bullets won't work "period" in any high recoil revolver. I have a 45 colt and a 454 Casull that absolutely love 260gr water dropped COWW Kieth bullets sized to .452 travelling at 1200 fps out of the Ruger 45 Colt and 1500fps in the Casull. For the Ruger 45 Colt that Kieth bullet will shoot touching bullet holes at 25 yards, open sights with a rest very easily day in and day out. On my best days I can do it without a rest.

I have two other 454s one by Taurus and one by Magnum research that HATE Kieth bullets and I can't keep a reliable 4" group with them but if I switch to a 260gr NOE RNFP with those two I can shoot 1" rested groups at 50 yards all day long.....so long as I haven't had caffeine as it gives me the shakes really bad.

Out of those pistols 2 are single action, 2 are double, all are open sights. Each one is different.

Saying Kieth bullets don't work "period" just because they don't work well out of one person's guns is asinine. Absolutes like that in the world of cast bullets simply have no place. Every gun is different and working with your load and bullet styles to get that gun dialed in is why so many of us have notebooks for each gun we own.

Some guns like softer lead, some like harder lead, some like to be pushed hard, some like mid range loads etc. the list goes on forever. The best we can do is to take what we see going on with the person's gun and if we had a similar situation with one of ours let them know how we resolved it. That same thing might make their issue worse or it could work. There are very few things that I have found work in every gun I own. One of those few things is Carnuba Red lube, every gun I own likes it, but I'll never say it will work for everyone else too because I fully expect I will someday own a gun that will hate it. Locking yourself into absolutes is a dangerous thing if you want to get the best accuracy you can for your guns with cast.

[35 Whelen]

I think 35 Whelen's issue was with the absolutes taken by the poster that Kieth bullets won't work "period" in any high recoil revolver. I have a 45 colt and a 454 Casull that absolutely love 260gr water dropped COWW Kieth bullets sized to .452 travelling at 1200 fps out of the Ruger 45 Colt and 1500fps in the Casull. For the Ruger 45 Colt that Kieth bullet will shoot touching bullet holes at 25 yards, open sights with a rest very easily day in and day out. On my best days I can do it without a rest.

I have two other 454s one by Taurus and one by Magnum research that HATE Kieth bullets and I can't keep a reliable 4" group with them but if I switch to a 260gr NOE RNFP with those two I can shoot 1" rested groups at 50 yards all day long.....so long as I haven't had caffeine as it gives me the shakes really bad.

Out of those pistols 2 are single action, 2 are double, all are open sights. Each one is different.

Saying Kieth bullets don't work "period" just because they don't work well out of one person's guns is asinine. Absolutes like that in the world of cast bullets simply have no place. Every gun is different and working with your load and bullet styles to get that gun dialed in is why so many of us have notebooks for each gun we own.

Some guns like softer lead, some like harder lead, some like to be pushed hard, some like mid range loads etc. the list goes on forever. The best we can do is to take what we see going on with the person's gun and if we had a similar situation with one of ours let them know how we resolved it. That same thing might make their issue worse or it could work. There are very few things that I have found work in every gun I own. One of those few things is Carnuba Red lube, every gun I own likes it, but I'll never say it will work for everyone else too because I fully expect I will someday own a gun that will hate it. Locking yourself into absolutes is a dangerous thing if you want to get the best accuracy you can for your guns with cast.

Thank you Mr. Bread. You said what I was trying to say only you're much more tactful!

35W

[robertbank]

Absolutes in any walk of life are dangerous and often just dumb. I have a Keith design I use in my 45 Colt that shoots as well as I can hold - which isn't saying much but at handgun ranges using open sights I feel I can hit any man/bear size target in a defensive situation. I disliked bullseye shooting when I had eyes that would cooperate. If I could I wouldn't but hats off to those who enjoy that style of shooting. Place your hand over your chest. I can put six in there quickly inside of 25 yards and more with a pistol. Good enough for me.

Take Care

Bob

[44man]

Unless the person giving the advice has won serious matches in silhouette competition, in which case it might be wise to listen.
Just because the Keith bullet was the top of the ladder 80 years ago doesn't mean it still is, necessarily.
It is all down to what level of accuracy you expect/are satisfied with.
Rick and I are serious. Both of us have been very serious IHMSA shooters. You darn sure better believe Rick can poke a very small hole at 150 to 200 meters.
My best group ever was 2-1/2" at 500 yards from Creedmore.
Back in the day it was done with open sights.
I shot all guns in IHMSA at International class. I expect Rick was as high. There is no higher class.
Yes, darn right I have shot many groups to 1/2" with revolvers at 100 yards.119918The hole in the top of this can is 5 shots at 100 yards. Had to stand the can back up after every shot.
Tell Rick he is full of junk. Wish i could swear

[ole 5 hole group]

I've done some shooting over the years and I know the difference between skill and luck relative to my shooting. A couple weeks ago I re-tested some loads I previously had worked up for my 1911. This is luck with a skillful 1st shot touching the inner ring.

119912

This is my rested skill level at 25-yards

119913119914119915

Now this is my 15 yoa granddaughter's skill level at 50 feet with a 45 Colt - offhand I might add. She has to shoot on a weekly basis to maintain this level - but, she's pretty good with that SW 25-2 converted by Bowen to 45 Colt.

119916 119922


100 yards rested with iron sights from a 500 Linebaugh Maximum - I can shoot larger groups, no problem. Offhand, I can really shoot some patterns.:-o

119917

For those shooting 1 or 2 inch groups at 200 yards - God gave you a gift that I missed out on, but then again, I missed out on a lot of stuff.

[ErnieBishop]

Never played the IHMSA game.
Until last month, it had been a long time since I had shot a revolver for group.
The way I look at accuracy, it is a systems approach.
Quality of the gun (including the sights), combined with the quality of the ammo (determining what THAT gun likes), the rest system, and of course the skill of said shooter.
My eyes are not going to do well with irons anymore for precision work, so I will have a reflex, dot sight or scope of some kind for accuracy work. Even if I take it off and use irons afterwards, I know I will be more accurate with a sight of some kind.

To the OP,
One of the best things you can do is to find a mentor for both reloading and shooting.

[cbrick]

I don't know about a gift but I can tell you all about years of working at it. I shot NRA long range handgun (mostly revolver) and I had been working at it for 10 years before the guys that could do it even noticed I was there. I kept working on it till I was giving those guys a run for their money and even beating them every now and then. Kept working at it till I was one of the guys those guys had to beat. I can assure you I didn't run down to the LGS, grab a revolver and a box of factory loads off shelf and start doing it, that would be a true gift from above (and take all the fun out of it).

Not a gift but a strong desire and years of practice, years of honing mental discipline on the firing line, years of taking no half steps in the loading room. Years of tremendous fun, even on a bad day when you know where ya screwed up.

Rick

[MostlyOnThePaper]

I think 35 Whelen's issue was with the absolutes taken by the poster that Kieth bullets won't work "period" in any high recoil revolver. I have a 45 colt and a 454 Casull that absolutely love 260gr water dropped COWW Kieth bullets sized to .452 travelling at 1200 fps out of the Ruger 45 Colt and 1500fps in the Casull. For the Ruger 45 Colt that Kieth bullet will shoot touching bullet holes at 25 yards, open sights with a rest very easily day in and day out. On my best days I can do it without a rest.

I have two other 454s one by Taurus and one by Magnum research that HATE Kieth bullets and I can't keep a reliable 4" group with them but if I switch to a 260gr NOE RNFP with those two I can shoot 1" rested groups at 50 yards all day long.....so long as I haven't had caffeine as it gives me the shakes really bad.

Out of those pistols 2 are single action, 2 are double, all are open sights. Each one is different.

Saying Kieth bullets don't work "period" just because they don't work well out of one person's guns is asinine. Absolutes like that in the world of cast bullets simply have no place. Every gun is different and working with your load and bullet styles to get that gun dialed in is why so many of us have notebooks for each gun we own.

Some guns like softer lead, some like harder lead, some like to be pushed hard, some like mid range loads etc. the list goes on forever. The best we can do is to take what we see going on with the person's gun and if we had a similar situation with one of ours let them know how we resolved it. That same thing might make their issue worse or it could work. There are very few things that I have found work in every gun I own. One of those few things is Carnuba Red lube, every gun I own likes it, but I'll never say it will work for everyone else too because I fully expect I will someday own a gun that will hate it. Locking yourself into absolutes is a dangerous thing if you want to get the best accuracy you can for your guns with cast.

Touching holes at 25yds is quite a bit different from 2 1/2 inches at 500yrs. Not that it isn't nice shooting, I'd certainly be happy with it, but not remotely in the same class.

Elmer obviously had it working enough to suit him, still doesn't make it the be all end all.

[44man]

I don't know about a gift but I can tell you all about years of working at it. I shot NRA long range handgun (mostly revolver) and I had been working at it for 10 years before the guys that could do it even noticed I was there. I kept working on it till I was giving those guys a run for their money and even beating them every now and then. Kept working at it till I was one of the guys those guys had to beat. I can assure you I didn't run down to the LGS, grab a revolver and a box of factory loads off shelf and start doing it, that would be a true gift from above (and take all the fun out of it).

Not a gift but a strong desire and years of practice, years of honing mental discipline on the firing line, years of taking no half steps in the loading room. Years of tremendous fun, even on a bad day when you know where ya screwed up.

Rick
The way it is, Hard work and many years. We have reached the point that if you bring loads here we can tell you what primer you used.
Like Rick, I was hated to be seen on the range. Being poor it was a pain when a guy signed up for 5 guns at a time so it was hours to get on the line. Once there we would laugh and joke all the time, that pissed off the tight butts to no end. One of our friends had a billy club on his spotting scope tripod to bash his shooter when he missed. Of course, he never did but it was funny and to be relaxed meant better shooting. a miss was just a laugh.
At Ohio state I cleaned 20 chickens, 20 pigs, 20 turkeys and 19 rams, clean missed the last ram, my fault.
You have not lived until you hit 20 turkeys at 150 meters. SBH, open sights.
ask Rick about turkeys.
I went from unclassified to International quicker then anyone with all guns from single shot and revolver production to unlimited. I shot with Josie Engle, Boyde Carpenter and Blacky Sleeva.
Shoots were won with shoot off chickens at 200 meters. The first 40 were just gotten rid of. Miss one only and you would lose. You better hit 5 chickens at 200 meters.
i also won .22 state with a new Ruger Mark II with no sight settings. Missed the first pig, turkey and ram but my spotter seen the hits. I adjusted and shot all 5 shoot off chickens at 100 yards. 57 out of 60. Open sight production.
I shot Belfountain, Lima, Youngstown, Ozark, a club in PA, PSC in VA and Quantico marine base.
Never made the nationals because of work and money.
Rick knows the game. We shot better groups at 200 meters then some of you do at 25 yards.
Once at the club I belonged to, guys with rifles and scopes were shooting a 6"X6" steel swinger at the turkey line, about 400 yards. I asked if we could shoot at it. My first shot was low from my BFR .475, I needed to set the red dot bottom on the 500 meter berm and hit the swinger the next 4 shots. Creedmore. I gave my gun to Pete and he hit 3 times. Some rifle shooters packed up and left but some came to see what we were shooting, could not believe a revolver.

[cbrick]

Shoots were won with shoot off chickens at 200 meters. The first 40 were just gotten rid of. Miss one only and you would lose. You better hit 5 chickens at 200 meters.

hehe, Jim, your age is showing, that's old school. I ran the Los Angeles Silhouette Club for several years, one of the things I started was a match called The Extravaganza of Silhouette, a huge success. By the third annual held on Labor Day weekend it was a three day event with shooters from 5 different continents and too many states to count, shoot from 7:00 AM and last entry to the line at 5:00 Saturday and Sunday, on Monday started at 7:00 and last relay at 12:00. There were 650 entries fired through in 2 1/2 days on 10 banks of targets and I had a half day to resolve all shoot-offs, compile all results and hold the trophy presentation. I was in a pickle to be sure, there were shooters there that could hit all five chickens time after time meaning the shoot-offs would drag on forever. What to do? I set up the range with the normal chicken shoot-off targets at 200 for AAA class and below. For the Master Class shooters including revolver I had a surprise waiting for them, 1/2 size chickens at 200 meters. I don't remember the size in inches of the chicken but you can palm one in your hand. Lot's of grumbling and moaning but still there were some that cleaned a bank of 5. It did get the shoot-offs finished much quicker so it was a success. That was the first match to use 1/2 size targets in shoot-offs but it's pretty standard now throughout silhouette, both IHMSA and NRA.

The IHMSA California State Director was there and he was dumbfounded by the shoot-offs and wrote a long article in the IHMSA News about it. That was the biggest three day handgun silhouette match ever held. IHMSA has had more entries during their International Championships but that is a 7 day event, not 3. In the two and a half days of competition, not including the shoot-offs there was more than 30,000 rounds sent down range, all from single shots and revolvers. It was the day shoot-offs changed forever in handgun silhouette.

Rick

[PAT303]

44man,thanks for answering my questions. Pat

[35 Whelen]

The OP asks for typical groups from a handgun rest at 25 yds. and he got:

"I shoot 2 1/2" groups at 500 yds. with a revolver."
"I can hold a handgun more steady than a Ransom Rest."
"Keith style bullets are a waste of lead."
"I can tell what primer you used blindfolded, with my hands tied behind my back."
Etc., etc. ad nauseum.

Senility...?
Deliriousness...?
Old men starved for attention...?

Ignore button.....YES!!!

[PAT303]

35 Whelen,have you ever wondered why people don't want to post results they have achieved and don't want to share information?,your post adds nothing to this thread and nothing to the world of cast boolit shooting,the best thing you have written is the last line,don't let the door hit you in the backside on your way out. Pat

[BCgunworks]

Here is the answer without all the bs.

Its kind of a loaded question with a ton of variables.
Without any real gun work and just modest load development you should be able to match standard factory ammo.
So if your shooting 3" groups with your Wally World ammo you should be able to match that with ease with some modest load development.

If your shooting worse than YOU do with standard off the shelf ammo you need some more load development.

Once you you get good and comfortable you may need some special work done to dial your gun in for cast.

[35 Whelen]

35 Whelen,have you ever wondered why people don't want to post results they have achieved and don't want to share information?,your post adds nothing to this thread and nothing to the world of cast boolit shooting,the best thing you have written is the last line,don't let the door hit you in the backside on your way out. Pat

Oh I'm not leaving, just "Ignoring" those that spew the BS (You're the latest, by the way).

Thanks for your post BCgunworks. Succinct, to the point and spot-on.

35W

[cbrick]

Oh I'm not leaving, just "Ignoring" those that spew the BS (You're the latest, by the way).

Thanks for your post BCgunworks. Succinct, to the point and spot-on. 35W

You could do me a favor and add me to that list. :mrgreen: Thanks, appreciate it.

Rick

[BruceB]

Amigo;

"44 man" became an early tenant of my own Ignore List quite a while back.

I got SO tired of his 1/2" groups, his endless self aggrandisement, his perpetual "Me,me me" that out-does Obama, for Heaven's sake..... I couldn't stand it any more and put him on the List.

There are a couple others who differ from 44 man mostly in degree ("multigunner" comes to mind) but 44 man is the gold standard for bloviating and tall tales.

I certainly do hope that you meant it when you said you aren't leaving. We need a few voices of sanity to counter these fools who think that all of us will believe their incredible tales.

I've done a good bit of long-range rifle competition, out to one thousand yards, and I think I have a fair idea about small groups at long yardages. BS stories of his 500-yard 1/2" handgun groups stretch my powers of discreet disagreement perilously close to the breaking point.

I agree with what you posted, and I also findytour contributions on this site to be unfailingly worthy of my attention.... I ALWAYS read what you write.

Just wanted to assure you that you're not alone.... and the Ignore list sure saves a lot of aggravation!

B

[35 Whelen]

Thank you, sir. Not leaving because this forum has SO many enlightened, informed, open-minded, experimental types. I've learned so much here.

I feel a little bad this post has strayed so far from the OP's original question. alexanderkidd if you're getting 2" - 3" groups with your 1911, you obviously know how to shoot a handgun. I really cut my teeth on a 1911 when I was a teenager, well a Colt Series 70, and in retrospect it seemed easier to get decent groups with it after learning to shoot it, than to do so with SA's.

As I've posted many times here, my NM Vaquero 45 Colt has been maddening in regards to accuracy. After putting lots of work in to it to make it shoot, and shooting some really decent 50 yd. groups, I still find it difficult to consistently shoot good groups with it. On the other hand, my Uberti .44's are fairly easy to get to group. Point is, there seems to be something with the Vaquero that requires me to pay attention to every minute detail of my grip, my sight picture, being careful not to squeeze my knees against my wrists (I shoot only from a sitting position), etc. I know beyond any doubt the revolver is very accurate. Maybe this is the case with your Vaquero.

Keep at it and keep us posted.

35W

[MT Chambers]

Ya? Well yer all amateurs, I been shootin' half inch groups at 1000yds. with my thumbuster for decades, just last week I decided to put sights on it.

[ErnieBishop]

That is a good one!:2_high5:

Ya? Well yer all amateurs, I been shootin' half inch groups at 1000yds. with my thumbuster for decades, just last week I decided to put sights on it.

[robertbank]

Man I do respect those who can and do. That said:

Nobody I know of can, with a iron sighted handgun shoot a 1.5" group out at 300 yards or 500. Well unless you are counting one shot groups. With human eyes you cannot see a 1.5" mark at 300 or 500 yards. Ok maybe 300 with florescent paint but not 500. My wife's grand -dad shot military shoots after WW1 through the 1950's with a six year hiatus to attend to WW11 at the Sarcee Range in Alberta. I have his target book. 500, 600, 900 and 1,000 yard targets. Using a SMLE bedded and decked out with a micrometer rear sight and none of his 500 yard targets reached 1.5" at 500 yards. None and we have several of the small Gold, Silver and Bronze medals he acquired over the period.

Unlike humans, targets always get tighter with age.

I mean no disrespect.

Take Care

Bob

[9.3X62AL]

BruceB.......soft point cast bullet developer, outdoorsman and hunting partner of note, and on-site polygrapher as well. Things were getting deep in this thread, for darn sure.

[PAT303]

Oh I'm not leaving, just "Ignoring" those that spew the BS (You're the latest, by the way).

Thanks for your post BCgunworks. Succinct, to the point and spot-on.

35W
I read what everyone posts weather I agree to it or not,I don't feel the need to call people liars,BS artist or belittle people who I don't agree with,put me on ignore if it makes you feel better,I have little time for such immature acts. Pat

[PAT303]

Man I do respect those who can and do. That said:

Nobody I know of can, with a iron sighted handgun shoot a 1.5" group out at 300 yards or 500. Well unless you are counting one shot groups. With human eyes you cannot see a 1.5" mark at 300 or 500 yards. Ok maybe 300 with florescent paint but not 500. My wife's grand -dad shot military shoots after WW1 through the 1950's with a six year hiatus to attend to WW11 at the Sarcee Range in Alberta. I have his target book. 500, 600, 900 and 1,000 yard targets. Using a SMLE bedded and decked out with a micrometer rear sight and none of his 500 yard targets reached 1.5" at 500 yards. None and we have several of the small Gold, Silver and Bronze medals he acquired over the period.

Unlike humans, targets always get tighter with age.

I mean no disrespect.

Take Care

Bob
I didn't believe a bloke could pop a balloon at 1000 with a 9mm but it's been done,there's plenty of 2''-3'' rifle groups shot at 1000. Pat

[ErnieBishop]

no doubt specialty pistols can turn in some great groups at a grand and beyond.
Really curious to see what can be done with a revolver in terms of a group.

[MostlyOnThePaper]

I would suggest that you might enjoy finding an IHMSA shoot somewhere near you and go watch some amazing shooting. Those guys don't know they can't do that, so they are.

[Cornbread]

Amigo;

"44 man" became an early tenant of my own Ignore List quite a while back.

I got SO tired of his 1/2" groups, his endless self aggrandisement, his perpetual "Me,me me" that out-does Obama, for Heaven's sake..... I couldn't stand it any more and put him on the List.

There are a couple others who differ from 44 man mostly in degree ("multigunner" comes to mind) but 44 man is the gold standard for bloviating and tall tales.

I certainly do hope that you meant it when you said you aren't leaving. We need a few voices of sanity to counter these fools who think that all of us will believe their incredible tales.

I've done a good bit of long-range rifle competition, out to one thousand yards, and I think I have a fair idea about small groups at long yardages. BS stories of his 500-yard 1/2" handgun groups stretch my powers of discreet disagreement perilously close to the breaking point.

I agree with what you posted, and I also findytour contributions on this site to be unfailingly worthy of my attention.... I ALWAYS read what you write.

Just wanted to assure you that you're not alone.... and the Ignore list sure saves a lot of aggravation!

B

Well I'm glad to see I'm not the only one with that on their ignore list. I know what it takes to make long shots and I have seen and done many myself at or over 1,000 yards while working for Uncle Sam's Misguided Children and those targets shot back. I saw my best friend make a shot with a 50 cal at 2,700 meters that unless I saw it I would swear it couldn't be done so I know some people have a gift, get lucky, and or practice until they can make shots like that but it isn't the expected norm for most shooters, even most Marines never shoot beyond 500 meters in training.

But back to the original post:

Accuracy Expectations at 25 yards with cast bullets
Wondering what 'typical' groups are like from a handgun rest @ 25 yards?



FWIW I think this is the most accurate and complete answer to the original poster's question:


Here is the answer without all the bs.

Its kind of a loaded question with a ton of variables.
Without any real gun work and just modest load development you should be able to match standard factory ammo.
So if your shooting 3" groups with your Wally World ammo you should be able to match that with ease with some modest load development.

If your shooting worse than YOU do with standard off the shelf ammo you need some more load development.

Once you you get good and comfortable you may need some special work done to dial your gun in for cast.

[BCgunworks]

Well I'm glad to see I'm not the only one with that on their ignore list. I know what it takes to make long shots and I have seen and done many myself at or over 1,000 yards while working for Uncle Sam's Misguided Children and those targets shot back. I saw my best friend make a shot with a 50 cal at 2,700 meters that unless I saw it I would swear it couldn't be done so I know some people have a gift, get lucky, and or practice until they can make shots like that but it isn't the expected norm for most shooters, even most Marines never shoot beyond 500 meters in training.

But back to the original post:

Accuracy Expectations at 25 yards with cast bullets
Wondering what 'typical' groups are like from a handgun rest @ 25 yards?



FWIW I think this is the most accurate and complete answer to the original poster's question:

It's amazing how easy it is to answer a question without telling shooting stories that grow like fish tails.

[FlatTop45LC]

I haven't read all the post so i will throw my 2 cents in without all the background.

I only shoot cast in a S&W M10 and a Lipseys FlatTop 45 LC. I shoot Missouri bullets in both.

I just plink with the 38 and as long as i hit the milk jug or whatever I am shooting i don't worry about it.

I carry the 45 Colt on our farm and also hunt deer and hogs with it so i punch paper every so often to keep myself honest.

With 9 grains of Unique and a 255 Keith from Missouri Bullet Co., i can keep 6 shots on a 6 inch plate at 50 yards freehand with a weaver stance and a two hand hold. That load does 2 inches for 6 shots at 25 yards off a rest.

[ErnieBishop]

No offense, but ISHMA has never intrigued me.
I know a number of ISHMA guys and have shot with them in a different handgun discipline.
They beat me sometimes in that discipline as well:mrgreen:
I am a field shooter and hunter (Yes, I do some bench shooting as well), and none of those positions are practical for what I like.

I would suggest that you might enjoy finding an IHMSA shoot somewhere near you and go watch some amazing shooting. Those guys don't know they can't do that, so they are.

[Beerd]

Worth repeating:"Wondering what 'typical' groups are like from a handgun rest @ 25 yards?"


Here is the answer without all the bs.

Its kind of a loaded question with a ton of variables.
Without any real gun work and just modest load development you should be able to match standard factory ammo.
So if your shooting 3" groups with your Wally World ammo you should be able to match that with ease with some modest load development.

If your shooting worse than YOU do with standard off the shelf ammo you need some more load development.

Once you you get good and comfortable you may need some special work done to dial your gun in for cast.

[MostlyOnThePaper]

No offense, but ISHMA has never intrigued me.
I know a number of ISHMA guys and have shot with them in a different handgun discipline.
They beat me sometimes in that discipline as well:mrgreen:
I am a field shooter and hunter (Yes, I do some bench shooting as well), and none of those positions are practical for what I like.
Fair enough, I haven't ever had time to try it but it looks like a blast to me, I was just speaking as to being pretty impressive from a marksmanship standpoint.

[cbrick]

Really curious to see what can be done with a revolver in terms of a group.

Me too! :mrgreen:


No offense, but ISHMA has never intrigued me. .

Can't see why that would be offensive. Precisely why there are so many shooting disciplines, everything couldn't possibly be for everyone.

Rick

[cbrick]

It's amazing how easy it is to answer a question without telling shooting stories that grow like fish tails.

That's interesting to say the least. Doesn't interest you therefore how could it possibly interest anyone?

Rick

[BCgunworks]

That's interesting to say the least. Doesn't interest you therefore how could it possibly interest anyone?

Rick

Prob a waste of time to tell half the culprits the point but here ya go.

You obviously were given a question by a new to cast bullet shooter.

That person wanted some sound advice. A little guidance.

He needed a to the point post which after what....5-6 pages I put up there....sorry I didn't see the thread sooner.

Instead he got.....well....everything but that.....

And what he got a lot of was rubbish that was so deep you needed waders to walk through.

I'm sorry if that offends you or the 1.5" at 500 yards poo post.....

By the way.....there are a good bit of optics equipped custom bench rifles that don't do that....with shooting rest and bags worth more than your wheel gun....so it's safe to say that's a false statement.

[cbrick]

Prob a waste of time to tell half the culprits the point but here ya go.

You obviously were given a question by a new to cast bullet shooter.

That person wanted some sound advice. A little guidance.

He needed a to the point post which after what....5-6 pages I put up there....sorry I didn't see the thread sooner.

Instead he got.....well....everything but that.....

I guess you just missed post #11. Aside from my reply addressing the question there were others also.


And what he got a lot of was rubbish that was so deep you needed waders to walk through.

I'm sorry if that offends you or the 1.5" at 500 yards poo post.....

By the way.....there are a good bit of optics equipped custom bench rifles that don't do that....with shooting rest and bags worth more than your wheel gun....so it's safe to say that's a false statement.

Why would you attribute that to me much less include it in a reply to me? Offend me? Hardly! Arrogance doesn't offend me but it can be amusing.

Now if you want to talk about thread drift I highly recommend you read your own posts. My reply to you was in regard to shooting stories and since you don't find them interesting it's all settled, no one could possibly be interested. Instead of addressing that look at the reply I got.

Rick

[ErnieBishop]

Me too! :mrgreen:



Can't see why that would be offensive. Precisely why there are so many shooting disciplines, everything couldn't possibly be for everyone.

Rick

I enjoy LR (Out to 1K and further), with single-shot handguns.
Some ISHMA guys in the past have basically told me that you pretty much need to shoot ISHMA if you want to be aligned with precision shooting and or distance. Basically offended that I would try LR handgunning and not have their background.
I am all about folks finding what they enjoy, and not try to fit someone into anyone's box.
Doesn't matter to me if it is in an area that is different than mine.
The Franken-Ruger transformation is in the process.
I know what folks can do on a good day with an XP or MOA Maximum at a grand or further, because we have been doing that for awhile.
I can't say that about distance shooting with a revolver, yet:mrgreen:

[ErnieBishop]

I get that.
If it was prone shooting, shooting over a pack, sitting with shooting sticks or some Bog-Gear (field shooting), it would have been more interesting to me. Oh yes, and make the distances further please with targets about the size of an animals vitals or smaller.
Just because that is the way I would like it, sure doesn't make it right or better. I'm just an odd-duck as far as preferences I guess.

Fair enough, I haven't ever had time to try it but it looks like a blast to me, I was just speaking as to being pretty impressive from a marksmanship standpoint.

[robertbank]

I didn't believe a bloke could pop a balloon at 1000 with a 9mm but it's been done,there's plenty of 2''-3'' rifle groups shot at 1000. Pat

Well in point in fact he didn't exactly. He did manage to hit a steel plate after several tries and the splatter broke the balloon. Quite the feat considering, IIRC the bullet drop for the 9MM is something in the neighbourhood of 110 inches at that distance. Jerry is a shooting god and nobody is going to argue that. His feat is a far cry from shooting a 1.5" group at 500 yards with an iron sighted handgun. That is what was claimed and not only claimed but suggested to be a frequent occurrence and that is nonsensical and simply not true. It has been years since I tried my hand at geometry but have someone work out the type of accuracy at the medium distance of say 250 yards necessary to complete a 1.5" group at 500 yards. If you wish to believe it was done and I use the past tense then there is nothing more to say. Enjoy Santa, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy. All of which do exist incidentally.:bigsmyl2:

Take Care

Bob
With a rifle shooting a 2" - 3" group at 1,000 yards would be quite an accomplishment using iron sights. With a scope I am sure there are folks who may have done it. Conditions would have to be perfect. No doubt there will be some on this thread who do it regularly and to them I raise my hat.

[cbrick]

Ernie, I really am interested in your long range revolver shooting. I hope you post your trials, tribulations and results. It'll be some fascinating reading and no doubt I'll learn something from it.

Rick

[DougGuy]

I'm going to ask for a mod to close this thread. There are some earnestly posted replies that tried to address the OP's question, but by far it has gotten out of hand and it needs to have the brakes applied..

[cbrick]

I'm going to ask for a mod to close this thread. There are some earnestly posted replies that tried to address the OP's question, but by far it has gotten out of hand and it needs to have the brakes applied..

?

That's quite an interesting post. Considering it's not your post what would give you the idea that locking it is up to you? If any thread is not to YOUR liking the solution is really simple . . . Don't read it!

Rick

[ErnieBishop]

I will share all the good and gory details.
I am the one doing the learning here. Everything will be a first time attempt.
It is an attainable goal, but that does not mean it will happen.
That is not to say that there has not been a lot of planning going on.
TOF @ 500 yards, will be similar to a couple of my SP's at 900 & 950 yards respectively.

Ernie, I really am interested in your long range revolver shooting. I hope you post your trials, tribulations and results. It'll be some fascinating reading and no doubt I'll learn something from it.

Rick

[robertbank]

To the OP there are a few excellent replies. So much depends on your skill level with a handgun and access yourself then do the best you can with the skill levels you now have and may acquire over time. From personal experience it can be very frustrating. In my prime I never had the patience (read skill) to shoot really tight groups at a distance of 25 yards with a handgun. Over time my skills improved to a point, then the ageing process set in and I am comfortable with where I am now and continue to marvel at what is possible. One thing I have learned and have known for years is tight groups are shot less often then often claimed. Magazine writers all seem to be America's 2nd squad for the Olympics but for the fact the groups, shot with an off the shelf/demonstration/prototype gun, would have been under (2" - 4") had it not been for their always claimed called flyer. This statement is often followed with a suggestion the tested blaster could do much better with someone who could really shoot and was a must buy for anyone who was serious about shooting.

Good luck, practice often and be the best you can be. You will die a happy man.

Bob

[ErnieBishop]

Well said Bob.

[9.3X62AL]

Well said Bob.

Full agreement. Another poster from British Columbia pretty much nailed it as well.

[41mag]

Wondering what 'typical' groups are like from a handgun rest @ 25 yards?

Have been shooting a Vaquero and Blackhawk .38 special with my own various cast bullet loads. 4" groups is about the best I've been able to muster with cast bullets, and have no tried any jacketed loads. More typical is in the 6" range for groups. Seems like things could be better but I have no standard to judge by.

My 1911 will do 2-3" with cast bullet loads thus far, which seems acceptable to me given it's a homebrew bullet...

From your post above,

With 38's loaded over around 3.8 or so grains of BE give or take a grain you should get some decent groups. That said your alloy, seating depth, case tension, primer, and crimp all play a significant role.

At this range WC's might work out best. As for weight usually around 140-150grs depending on the mold and alloy.

With the 45 you might try some 185-220 SWC's using around 4 or so grains of BE.

[M-Tecs]

Quite the feat considering, IIRC the bullet drop for the 9MM is something in the neighbourhood of 110 inches at that distance.

Robert I agree 100% except for the drop. Per the Federal web site http://www.federalpremium.com/ballistics_calculator/ a 9mm sighted with 124 FMJ at 50 yards drops 3199.3" at a 1,000 yards.

A 308 with 168's is 420" drop at a 1,000 yards when sighted at a 100. It's 399" when sighted at 200 yards.

For the OP I don't shoot the standard blackhawk grip very well. I can half my groups with a bisely grip. Factory jacketed ammo is a good baseline. You should be able to equal factory. If not start looking a throats or barrel constriction under the threads.

[aya]

Testing a new gun, i shoot some quality factory loads and some proven handloads with jacketed bullets. The best loads would be shot again in 4x5 shot groups. This would give me, what i call the accuracy potensial of the gun, AND the shooter. The last mentioned , the weak link!
Anyway, i expect my castboolit loads to at least equal this, or to be a tad better.
I had period of ten to fifteen years with no serious testing, when sparetime again was available , I had some new boolits and powders to test, but none of them was what i was hoping for. Then i tried some proven loads, just to cheer myself up a bit, BUT those groups was not as the last time i tested from the bench. Sadly had to admit, i was not thirty years old any longer, closer to sixty in fact. I had to adjust my accuracy standards with all my guns, so now it is fun again! It is nice to compete against yourself, not just the X-ring. By the way, in my opinion, a good handgun with an balanced load, should be capable of 2 inches or better from the bench at 25 yards, as an average from 4x5 shots.

[robertbank]

Holy horse feathers that is significant. I kinda thought my info was shady on the drop. I suspect Jerry would not want to pay for the ammo to try to do the shot again. Brings new meaning to the phrase "shoot the moon.".:bigsmyl2:

Take Care

Bob

[M-Tecs]

Just a side note on the 168 in a 308. You get 109" of drift with a full value 10 mph wind at 1,000 yds. I did shoot one match that required 18 to 22 minutes of wind.

On the long range handgunning hitting larger targets is suprisingly easy if you can see bullet impact dust. You just walk them in. I have only shot 45 colt out to about 600/650 yard but hitting a 18" x 24" rock wasn't that hard. First shot may miss by 30 or 40 yards but with walking them in I normally could get a couple of hits with two or three cylinders. If it was too wet to see impacts it was almost impossible to get a hit.

As kid I reloaded 45 Colt and 45/70 for a reenactment club (7th Calvary) . I basically had an unlimited supply of ammo. The club range only went to 300 yards but across the creek up on the hill side there was a white chalky rock about 18” wide by 24” tall about 600 or 650 yards out. Every time you hit it you would see a puff of white dust.

Since you could normally see the bullet impacts on the hill side you could walk the rounds in. I was using light loads in Colt Old Army type pistols, a Ruger Blackhawk and Trapdoor Springfield’s. Shot thousands of rounds at that rock. Got quite good at it.

I also shoot NRA High Power and Long range and I understand wind drift and trajectory. As a long range shooter it seems like BS because I am looking a first round hits and repeatability. As someone who has done a lot of long range rock busting with 45 Colt and 45/70 it’s really not that hard if you can see the bullet impacts and you can walk them in.

[MT Gianni]

I'm an older (much older) guy that has shot for some 60 years...I used to be capable of some pretty nice groups with about anything I shot and did a whole lot of practice ...but now...with aging and somewhat weak eyes and all the other fun that goes with a man in his mid 70's...what would be acceptable "back then" is only a dream now...but I still enjoy shooting and just do the best I can...4" freehand for me at 25 yards is a decent group on a decent day..I don't shoot off bags or a rest..never really have as I know the gun and the ammo will outshoot me.

Interesting bit of "reality"...I used to shoot at a local indoor range where some folks that are in one branch of Federal Law Enforcement used to shoot on a regular basis...I watched 7, 10, and 15 yard shooting that was not a group..it was a "pattern"...shooting .40 semi's...I was amazed and asked the range officer about the seeming lack of ability and accuracy on the part of the shooters and he replied that they qualify at 7 and 10 yards and a "man target" with most of the shots in center mass is "good enough"...Just surprised me...I can shoot my CZ in 9mm and in .40 closer today with all my difficulties than what I was seeing.

With all qualifying data available to a lawyer, the last thing an LEO wants it to have qualified at the highest level possible and be on the stand having to account for an errant shot that went anywhere other than the hostile that was shooting at them. The B27 target has an accurate resemblance to a human with very wide ringss when compared to a bullseye target.

[PAT303]

Prob a waste of time to tell half the culprits the point but here ya go.

You obviously were given a question by a new to cast bullet shooter.

That person wanted some sound advice. A little guidance.

He needed a to the point post which after what....5-6 pages I put up there....sorry I didn't see the thread sooner.

Instead he got.....well....everything but that.....

And what he got a lot of was rubbish that was so deep you needed waders to walk through.

I'm sorry if that offends you or the 1.5" at 500 yards poo post.....

By the way.....there are a good bit of optics equipped custom bench rifles that don't do that....with shooting rest and bags worth more than your wheel gun....so it's safe to say that's a false statement.
It's a false statement to say it doesn't happen sorry,we shoot 500m fly shoot here,unless you shoot under 2''-3'' at 500m your not in the top 20,like posted already,you blokes need to get out more and see what really good shooters can do. Pat

[PAT303]

Worth repeating:"Wondering what 'typical' groups are like from a handgun rest @ 25 yards?"
Actually the answer has been given as well as what boolit styles,grip,bag technique etc etc is needed for accuracy. Pat

[runfiverun]

heck 12' at 1,000 yds would be what? 1-2 mm front sight hold over from the actual target.



this thread has just wandered away from the op's question, if insults or whatever start then it will be closed and points issued.
we are already following the thread over in the staff section.

[cbrick]

It's a false statement to say it doesn't happen sorry,we shoot 500m fly shoot here,unless you shoot under 2''-3'' at 500m your not in the top 20,like posted already,you blokes need to get out more and see what really good shooters can do. Pat

Don't loose any sleep over any of his posts Pat, none of them make much sense. He's had a couple or three posts such as below where he attributes me to lying about my groups, calls them poo posts. I just chalk it up to an arrogant poster that can't figure out who posted what. Since I have never fired a single revolver round past 200 meters it would probably be a safe bet that I've never posted grouping results at 500 yards. I was also accused by a different poster that the only way I could do what I do is with a keyboard. No shortage of people that are convinced that since they can't do it there couldn't possibly be anyone that could therefore they are liars. Just chalk it up to comedy central time and move on.

Still trying to figure out just what the cost of any of my revolvers has to do with the price of Panda poo in China but I guess that must be important to him. Perhaps it's because my revolvers don't cost as much as a shooting rest it's obvious I'm lying about groups I never fired or posted. So yeah, comedy central time.


I'm sorry if that offends you or the 1.5" at 500 yards poo post.....

By the way.....there are a good bit of optics equipped custom bench rifles that don't do that....with shooting rest and bags worth more than your wheel gun....so it's safe to say that's a false statement.

Now if you really want comedy just read the posts in this thread since he went on his thread drift rant. Really strange, not another word about thread drift.

Some of this stuff is much better than what is supposed to be entertainment on the tube. :mrgreen:

Rick

[ErnieBishop]

With a revolver?
With a revolver with iron sights?
I think you are referring to rifle BR matches.
If I am right, people were doubting someone shooting a revolver at 500 yards that grouped 1.5".
I don't think anyone here is doubting what a BR rifle shooter can do at distance (primarily 600 and 1K here).


we shoot 500m fly shoot here,unless you shoot under 2''-3'' at 500m your not in the top 20,like posted already,you blokes need to get out more and see what really good shooters can do. Pat

[cbrick]

With a revolver?
With a revolver with iron sights?
I think you are referring to rifle BR matches.
If I am right, people were doubting someone shooting a revolver at 500 yards that grouped 1.5".
I don't think anyone here is doubting what a BR rifle shooter can do at distance (primarily 600 and 1K here).

There are four different types of posters in this thread.

Those on short range revolver.
Those on long range revolver.
Those on bench rest rifle.
Those that can't figure that out and calling everybody a liar.

In reality should be nobody get their shorts in a wad. All good entertainment. :mrgreen:

Rick

[9.3X62AL]

Someone capable of repeatable 1.5" groups at 500 yards with a revolver belongs at Camp Perry every summer, and at the Olympic Games every 4 years. A skill set of that sort is preternatural. I think that is the basis of the doubts expressed in the body of this thread. I have seen some phenomenal shooting at IHMSA matches in Production Revolver, capabilities that far exceed any I could muster on my best day. But I'm sorry--I can't accept a few of the claims made in this thread and others concerning revolver grouping ability at great distance, whether fixture-fired or handheld. These strain credibility past the point of delusion.

[Lonegun1894]

I think what gets some people is that they keep thinking that you can't hit something at longer ranges. What I was always taught was to practice out to double the distance that I plan to hunt to. It has taught me that I can hit out to ranges that I wouldn't have believed possible. We all have seen shooters who have been worse shooters than us, and better shooters than us. What that tells me is that I can outshoot some of you here, and then turn around and be outshot by others. Personally, I like shooting with the ones who can outshoot me, cause they have skills I don't, and I will eventually learn something and be a better shooter for it.

As to the "unbelievable" groups, we have all shot groups that we can't seem to repeat. My last one was a .75" cloverleaf at 100 yds with an iron-sighted Ruger SBH 5.5" shooting a Lee 240gr SWC TL, standing and without a rest. I almost fell over when I saw that group, cause most days, I have a hard time keeping 6 shots out of that revolver in a 4" group at 100yds with a rest. And I was trying a new load so put up gift wrap on the backboard to make sure I could find my bullet holes on that test. There were no other holes, and I have been trying to repeat that group at 100yds again, and have been unable to. My closest to date is 2.75", and most are still in the 4-6" range, with a rest. I doubt I will ever repeat that group, but if it was possible to do it once, it should be possible to do it again. Now I just have to keep trying and hope I get lucky again someday, cause I don't expect to ever be that good. I mean, I can do that with a handful of my scoped rifles, but not with iron sighted rifles. So I KNOW that that one group was a fluke. Yes, it happened once, but it is FAR from what I am capable of on demand. And my on demand performance is what counts in my book, and not some happy accident.

[BCgunworks]

Someone capable of repeatable 1.5" groups at 500 yards with a revolver belongs at Camp Perry every summer, and at the Olympic Games every 4 years. A skill set of that sort is preternatural. I think that is the basis of the doubts expressed in the body of this thread. I have seen some phenomenal shooting at IHMSA matches in Production Revolver, capabilities that far exceed any I could muster on my best day. But I'm sorry--I can't accept a few of the claims made in this thread and others concerning revolver grouping ability at great distance, whether fixture-fired or handheld. These strain credibility past the point of delusion.

Yup. Agree! And that person hasn't posted anymore since the first several people called bs.

[BCgunworks]

I reckon with the above being stated.....we have all made our point and prob should just let it go....

[ErnieBishop]

Even though it has gone off original topic, I have enjoyed guys share what groups they are getting.
I get the wallet groups/once in a blue moon. They are not sustained accuracy, but they are sure fun when they happen.
The only thing that has stood out to me as a tall tale is 500 yards with revolver/iron sights 1.5" (Whether it was a claimed 5 or 6 shot group).

This is the one, where I would say, "Show Me."
Doable with a bench rig? Oh Yes.
Doable with a specialty pistol? Oh yes.

If someone accomplishes something outside the pale, then that person should be able to have credible evidence to prove that (If they want it to be accepted as truth), like witnesses, video, etc...

I enjoy pushing the envelope, but I know that I need to have evidence if it is to be accepted.

[dtknowles]

I doubt some of the claims made in this thread (an others) but I will not call them out as liars or BS. I just have doubts. In my mind, incredible claims require a higher standard of evidence. That kind of evidence is hard to provide on the internet, I almost have to witness it myself. I hope my doubts are not because I don't want them to be true but just a reasonable suspicion.

I think I posted earlier in this thread so this might be a repeat. For the OP, 2 inches or less bench rest groups (25 yards) with good ammo and a moderately priced ($600 range) Revolver, if you can't get to that you either need to practice more or something is wrong with the revolver. One inch groups with at .22 LR semiauto of similar quality. If I can't shoot the one inch groups with the .22 then I know that I am the problem and need to practice because the .22 will do a bit better than that. My guns, me shooting. Others do better I am sure but rarely where I shoot. Where I shoot, when I hit the 8 inch plate at 100 yards with an iron sighted revolver it turns heads even if I miss once in a while.

Tim

[dvnv]

Even though it has gone off original topic, I have enjoyed guys share what groups they are getting.
I get the wallet groups/once in a blue moon. They are not sustained accuracy, but they are sure fun when they happen.
The only thing that has stood out to me as a tall tale is 500 yards with revolver/iron sights 1.5" (Whether it was a claimed 5 or 6 shot group).

This is the one, where I would say, "Show Me."
Doable with a bench rig? Oh Yes.
Doable with a specialty pistol? Oh yes.

If someone accomplishes something outside the pale, then that person should be able to have credible evidence to prove that (If they want it to be accepted as truth), like witnesses, video, etc...

I enjoy pushing the envelope, but I know that I need to have evidence if it is to be accepted.

I believe the quote to which you refer was:

"My best group ever was 2-1/2" at 500 yards from Creedmore. "

It does not say if it was with iron sights or how many shots were in the group, nor did he say he could do it again.

[jmort]

Cbrick has the patience of a Saint.

[ErnieBishop]

I stand corrected.
1/2 MOA at 500 yards-Still a remarkable claim.
But, like you said if the # of shots are not listed or the optic or irons, then....

I believe the quote to which you refer was:

"My best group ever was 2-1/2" at 500 yards from Creedmore. "

It does not say if it was with iron sights or how many shots were in the group, nor did he say he could do it again.

[robertbank]

Well after walking in our guns two of us using 4.2" Ruger GP-100's and our handloads were able to hit an 18" steel plate about 75% of the time at 100 yards last week end. Nothing special for those who can shoot but not to bad for us. We were using 38spl cases and our cast bullets resting our arms on our shooting bags. No big deal for most here I suspect but not bad for us. My semi-autos aren't quite as accurate as my revolvers and results at that range fall well below 50% for us. Fun though. When it is raining and cool hearing a steel ring out is preferable to patching targets.:bigsmyl2: Besides the Edmonton Oilers weren't playing until the following Monday so what else was a man to do.

Take Care

Bob

[ErnieBishop]

Bob,
If it was fun shooting that way, it was worth it!

[9.3X62AL]

At some point, it might be wise to find a rifle for the 500 yard recreation.

I'll state my biases up front--my shooting centers around hunting applications as its primary focus. Secondary focus is self-defense, and makes up about 15% of the activity. Otherwise, it's about hunting. Grouping? Most of my revolvers can meet BCGunworks' standard most of the time, if I'm paying attention to business. There are times the "fun" aspect of shooting overwhelms my self-discipline at the trigger, and hits widen out. Not to the point of compromised safety, but I have lapses. That's me. I probably lack the patience and discipline required to be a match-quality shooter, the consistency of effort to repeatedly do the same thing the same way time after time--day after day--ad nauseum. It bores me after a short time. Being a hunter and having been a law officer, I have cultivated skills to enable rapid accurate shot placement under compressed timeframes, not using sights on handguns or shotguns to 25-30 yards and on rifles to 50 yards. I very seldom miss under these conditions on still targets, and am almost as good on movers.

It boils down to what you train yourself to do.

[Lonegun1894]

Robertbank,
Way to go! If I may ask, was there an aiming point on the steel plate or was it just a blank plate? I ask because I tend to do much better if I have a small aiming point, and the smaller and more precise, but still visible, the better. For example, instead of shooting at a bullseye and using a 6 o'clock hold like many do, I use a small black square about 1-1.5" across drawn on the back of gift wrap paper (white) when shooting at 100 yds, so just the smallest thing I can see. I make it about 1/2" across at 25 yds. Or shoot at a triangle drawn on the same piece of paper, with a tip down so my sight picture is the perfect textbook sight alignment we are all taught, with the tip of the triangle sitting dead center right on top of the front sight. This way I get an easily visible target, and a VERY fine point to aim at for very precise sight alignment. This always shrinks my groups down a bit, but I tend to use it for when I want the smallest possible groups, such as load development or when pushing myself. The vast majority of the time, I use just the black square because I think it tends to approximate field targets more, being about the size of a rabbits head or smaller. Maybe that will help? Your revolvers with good loads will do much better than just staying on an 18" plate, but now that you know you can hit that thing, I bet your confidence, and skill, improves dramatically in a short time. You have the skills needed, now it's just a matter of fine-tuning them into something that will make jaws drop. When I just want to have some fun, I fill empty coke cans with water and set them on the slope of the berm for reactive targets at 100yds. They're actually kind of boring at 50 yds, but at 100yds, they're just challenging enough that I still miss them with my 4" Security Six about half the time on a good day and 2/3 of the time on an average day, so it keeps it interesting enough to keep trying, but not enough to frustrate me too bad and make me want to quit and go home. Your groups will shrink if you practice. So try different targets to see what you like, and change things up now and then to keep things interesting. Hunting/field use isn't the same every time, so why should practice be?

[44man]

My group was shot with an Ultra Dot by aiming at a tree branch in the area of 26' over steel. I used the BFR 45-70 revolver.
On "demand" NO so don't get shorts in a wad.
What most fail to see is the loading bench is what makes accuracy and a WHOLE lot of work.
Rick understands this concept due to IHMSA experience.
I can never get it across that a revolver is a wonderful gun and can shoot better then anyone knows. yes I have done crazy stuff, never to be done again but the BFR's are the most accurate revolvers ever made and I have more sub 1" groups at 100 yards then I can count and even went to 1/2" on occasion. Yes, it takes a rest and I use Ultra Dots but a scope does improve things, just not for hunting.120149 I set these shotgun shells on the side and shot at the bases at 50 yards. I hit 5 in a row but only found 3. BFR in .500 JRH, old Loopy scope. Then I shot at a shotgun shell at 100 yards with the Ultra Dot, sorry I missed the first shot by 1/2" but hit with the second. 120151 You fellas need to understand it is not my old 76 year old butt, it is the loads used.
I feel like Rick and I are kind of like kin. I don't know why you don't listen to him?
The start is a good gun of course but you still need to make a good gun shoot.
You blame yourself too much when you feed the guns junk.
I bet most of you guys can shoot good enough to do anything but you waste lead with stuff that goes where it wants to go.
I can't allow that and never work anything less then 50 yards and I expect well under 1" or I toss the failure. My little loading book is as big as your hand with one load for each boolit in each caliber. I will not put failures in my book.
I have hundreds of molds and nothing is on paper, all cast the same and I do not need 725.666* for a mold. To keep a log for each mold is so silly I toss my hands up. I do the same with every mold. Only one I had trouble with was a huge brass mold that needed to be HOTTER.

[cbrick]

My little loading book is as big as your hand with one load for each boolit in each caliber. I will not put failures in my book.

Really? My load notes contain all tested loads. Much can be learned from what didn't work. For one, it keeps me from repeating a failed load over and over. If it seemed worthy of testing today but didn't pan out and I didn't record it next year it would probably seem like a worthy test again, and the next year and. Just not possible to remember everything I've tested. What didn't work well can also give clues at to what to tweak & test any difference, in other words, why didn't it work?

Good notes from failed loads can be as useful as notes from loads that do work well.

The key is keeping "good" notes.

Rick

[ErnieBishop]

What group are you speaking of (Distance, total shots fired, type of rest)?
The Ultra Dot is 1x optic, correct?

My group was shot with an Ultra Dot by aiming at a tree branch in the area of 26' over steel. I used the BFR 45-70 revolver.

[robertbank]

Lonegun1894 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?12305-Lonegun1894) we were shooting at a flat piece of steel about 18" square. When you hit it you get to hear the ring. Once you get the slight hold over correct it is just a matter of keeping the front sight centered. Fun to do an one of us usually wins a coffee and a donut at the local Tim Horton's. I have to say it is easier than hitting clay pigeons at the same distance but at Abottsford I used my Model 27 with a six inch barrel. I am sure I could hit a clay pigeon at that distance ..but not very often. For me, more luck than skill I am afraid. I remember what Clint Eastwood said in one of his movies. "A man has to know his limitations":bigsmyl2:

All of the above is with notch and post sights with stock guns. I don't claim to be any more than an average shooter. I am certain everyone who has posted here can do the same thing without to much practice. I will say that I am not capable of shooting anything resembling a group with a handgun at that distance and none of my handguns would be either. 4" at 25 yards is not 2" at 100, 200, 500 or a 1,000 yards. Note I can't shoot 4" groups at 25 yards even from a rest but I can manage an 8" group shooting rather quickly, standing and 2" - 4" groups at 15 yards fairly quickly that is good enough for me.

Take Care

Bob

[cbrick]

Note I can't shoot 4" groups at 25 yards even from a rest. Take Care Bob

Bet ya could! :mrgreen: All it would take is first, the desire to do it, some concentration and some practice. Key there is "desire". If it's not something your particularly interested in and didn't really care it would be very tough to do. If ya decided to give it a go and see just what you could do it would probably surprise you.

Rick

[9.3X62AL]

Bet ya could! :mrgreen: All it would take is first, the desire to do it, some concentration and some practice. Key there is "desire". If it's not something your particularly interested in and didn't really care it would be very tough to do. If ya decided to give it a go and see just what you could do it would probably surprise you.

Rick

I'll buy this--any day of the week.

[Lonegun1894]

"A man has to know his limitations":bigsmyl2:

That's exactly right. But at the same time, forget what someone told you is impossible. Just cause they can't do it, doesn't mean you can't, and vice versa. If or when you decide your groups are good enough, you quit improving. I was taught for quick hits on human sized targets, and then the teacher started moving the targets further away. Here is what that Viet Nam vet did to me, and teaching was done with a 1911. I was told to read the old manual which said it was effective to 25 yds, and told it was written by men who REALLY knew their stuff. Being in my early teens, I believed it. So he started me at 5 yds, then 10, and then we got to 25 after about a month of shooting it, and I was getting cocky cause I had pushed the gun to it's absolute limit and was holding 3-4" groups. So then that old geezer put the target at 100 yds, and proceeded to put a magazine in the chest, and told me to do the same. Even after seeing it done, I accused him of cheating somehow cause the manual said what I had just seen couldn't be done. My first magazine, I got a couple in the target, which got me curious if maybe the geniuses who wrote the manual had maybe been wrong. Not too long after, maybe another couple weeks, I was keeping all my shots on the human silhouette, and that old man moved the target out to 150 yds, and then 200 yds. Y'all get the idea. He was teaching me to test, and then try to exceed my limits instead of believing what some expert says. That's what we all need to do. I mean, if you can shoot 4 inches at 25yds, that should translate to a 16" group at 100 yds, which is easily good enough to stay centermass on a b-27 target, and is doable for you right now with that 4" @ 25 yd group. So that means that if you don't pull any shots and don't have any ammo issues, etc, ALL your shots should be on that 18" plate. I have no doubt that you can do this, and improve on it, if you try. It is just a matter of wanting to. And once you want to do that, and improve, you will be doing the same thing with a 8-9" paper plate at 100yds next, and then a 6". The only things needed are a desire to improve and extend your range, time, and ammo. Lots and lots of ammo. Just have fun with it and don't let things get frustrating when it doesn't work out the way you were g the first time.

[robertbank]

Lonegun1894 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?12305-Lonegun1894) all what you say is true. I know this but I am doing gmy best to stay reasonably competitive in IDPA at the present time. To do so,few of the skills required to improve in IDPA are found in the discipline you speak of. I have to improve on my reload times and my transitions from target to target in order to offset slower reflexes and declining mobility. That does keep me busy. For now I am happy to plink away at the 100 yard gong and enjoy the odd cup of free coffee.

I wll say once my back prevents me from maintaining a reasonable level of skill at IPDA I suspect I will transition to shooting cast boolets out of rifles using a scope. I have already passed the point of trying to use most iron sights on a rifle. :cry:

All the best and go for the ring.

Take Care


Bob

[9.3X62AL]

In accordance with the above recent posts, a shooter should do what is enjoyed. Sure, there are serious overtones to a portion of my range and target work--but the larger majority consists of fun and recreation. Downtime. A large measure of my resentment for the current 6-years-long drought of ammo and reloading supplies is connected to the greed and avarice that drives and sustains these shortages. Their presence is a real buzz-kill for me.

[44man]

Really? My load notes contain all tested loads. Much can be learned from what didn't work. For one, it keeps me from repeating a failed load over and over. If it seemed worthy of testing today but didn't pan out and I didn't record it next year it would probably seem like a worthy test again, and the next year and. Just not possible to remember everything I've tested. What didn't work well can also give clues at to what to tweak & test any difference, in other words, why didn't it work?

Good notes from failed loads can be as useful as notes from loads that do work well.

The key is keeping "good" notes.

Rick
Yes, true, I remember bad stuff only and only write what works. I have no interest in 4" at 25 or 50 so what does that is not entered. Most of my guns have one load ONLY. There is no need for 100 fluffs. I know what fails so I remember them, no need to record failures.