Who wins and who loses

[dtknowles]

"The Atlantic: The Rise of the New Global Elite (http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/01/the-rise-of-the-new-global-elite/308343/?single_page=true): The U.S.-based CEO of one of the world’s largest hedge funds told me that his firm’s investment committee often discusses the question of who wins and who loses in today’s economy. In a recent internal debate, he said, one of his senior colleagues had argued that the hollowing-out of the American middle class didn’t really matter. “His point was that if the transformation of the world economy lifts four people in China and India out of poverty and into the middle class, and meanwhile means one American drops out of the middle class, that’s not such a bad trade,” the CEO recalled."

The discussion continued that their biggest markets were now in India and China not the U.S.A. so more wealth in India and China was a winner for them even if it cost them an American customer.

Tim

[Springfield]

No big surprise, all they care about is money.

[BrassMagnet]

100 years ago, businessmen thought of America first.
Now businessmen think profit first.
The Fed is 101 years old. 101 years of assisting the Gov't in twisting our economy. Could there be a connection?

[BrassMagnet]

Little businessmen think country first and big businessmen think world first. Any connection?

[shoot-n-lead]

100 years ago, businessmen thought of America first.
Now businessmen think profit first.


You would benefit by reading the link. Business has never been altruistic...it has always been about profit...if good was done, that was a by-product of earning a profit. It is fine to be nostalgic and romanticize aspects of history...but that seldom reflects reality.

http://www.sageamericanhistory.net/gildedage/topics/railroads_industry.html

[starmac]

Businesses, being about profit, who would have ever thunk it.

What is the difference in a business and a laborer? The working man has always been concerned about who would put the most in his pocket too.

[shoot-n-lead]

Businesses, being about profit, who would have ever thunk it.

It amazes me that our uninformed population has no understanding of why businesses exist. They have taken the bait of the government to demonize the very thing that makes this society work.

[Springfield]

I don't mind businesses making a profit, but if they have a choice I prefer they support their fellow citizens also. And that may mean a little less profit for them. It shouldn't be ALL about the money.

[dtknowles]

I did not start the thread to demonize the companies but to inform the public that the worm has turned and the U.S. consumer is not the customer of first choice and the U.S. worker is not the worker of first choice. U.S. workers are not a best value, foreign customers are the market being sought and U.S. companies are starting to look to mover not only work but their headquarters overseas.


General Motors makes and sells more cars in China than it does in the U.S. for just one example. I am surprised they have not moved their headquarters to Hong Kong instead of Detroit.

Tim

[shoot-n-lead]

I don't mind businesses making a profit, but if they have a choice I prefer they support their fellow citizens also. And that may mean a little less profit for them. It shouldn't be ALL about the money.

The American public would be well served to educate themselves a little more on the actual workings of business and how the business atmosphere has changed in the last 50yrs. The majority of decisions that businesses make are driven by the spiraling cost of doing business in this country due to government regulation, unions and business infrastructure. And, they also have to be competitive with more companies that do not have the same challenges in their countries. Most people think decisions are made to INCREASE profitability, when in fact the majority of business decisions are made to MAINTAIN profitability to satisfy obligations to the aforementioned players as well a the stockholders...another aspect that was not the case, 50yrs ago.

As our personal lives have grown more complicated and expensive over the same period, business has not been exempted from the same.

[Houndog]

Business has always been about proffit first, BUT there's one lesson they are forgetting! When the US economy colapses, and I think its VERY close to happening, the rest of the world's economy will do the same! While the US isn't the world's biggest economy any longer, thanks to the *** infesting the Whitehouse and his minions, we are still the world's biggest importer. Let our economy fail and imports will decline drastically. Other countries will follow us right down the drain. Big business leaders and stock brokers aren't immune no matter where they are in the world. They only have further to fall and a harder landing than us poor folks will.

[dtknowles]

I don't mind businesses making a profit, but if they have a choice I prefer they support their fellow citizens also. And that may mean a little less profit for them. It shouldn't be ALL about the money.

Businesses always have a choice and when they choose what do you think should guide their decisions. For Corporations the decision should always be what maximizes the value to shareholders with the secondary considerations for long term vs. short term benefits. For partnerships and sole proprietors they can think about what would be good for their country or town and what it will cost them for their generosity the money is coming out of their pockets so they can do as they like.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Business has always been about proffit first, BUT there's one lesson they are forgetting! When the US economy colapses, and I think its VERY close to happening, the rest of the world's economy will do the same! While the US isn't the world's biggest economy any longer, thanks to the *** infesting the Whitehouse and his minions, we are still the world's biggest importer. Let our economy fail and imports will decline drastically. Other countries will follow us right down the drain. Big business leaders and stock brokers aren't immune no matter where they are in the world. They only have further to fall and a harder landing than us poor folks will.

Blaming Obama is just scapegoating and ignores the fundamentals that are driving the changes. This has been coming for a long time and it is a freight train, it will not stop on a dime. It will actually not stop until a new balance has been achieved.

Tim

[shoot-n-lead]

Business has always been about proffit first, BUT there's one lesson they are forgetting! When the US economy colapses, and I think its VERY close to happening, the rest of the world's economy will do the same! While the US isn't the world's biggest economy any longer, thanks to the *** infesting the Whitehouse and his minions, we are still the world's biggest importer. Let our economy fail and imports will decline drastically. Other countries will follow us right down the drain. Big business leaders and stock brokers aren't immune no matter where they are in the world. They only have further to fall and a harder landing than us poor folks will.

For the record...United States still has the largest economy in the world, by a large margin.

There is also a lesson "folks" need to learn...if they ain't making money, you ain't getting a paycheck. If they cannot compete with other companies...they cannot survive. So, if they make a decision to help the"home folks", and that decision puts them out of business...did they really help them?

[dtknowles]

................Let our economy fail and imports will decline drastically. Other countries will follow us right down the drain. Big business leaders and stock brokers aren't immune no matter where they are in the world. They only have further to fall and a harder landing than us poor folks will.

What do you mean when you say "our economy fail" Do you mean when interest on Government debt gets so high that the government can't service its debt? Do you mean that when U.S. taxes get so high that companies move out of the country and the rich take their money overseas? Do you mean another recession or even depression with high unemployment? Do you mean runaway inflation. Each of these are possible and some like the next recession is unavoidable, historically it would be about time for the next recession but the last one and the FED's actions have been unprecedented, so hopefully it will be delayed. The rich and companies are sheltering their wealth overseas. No if the U.S. goes down the tubes the world will not go down the tubes, China is already working to create an economy that depends less on exports and more on local demand. The runaway inflation is a serious long term threat but it always is, hedging against inflation it something I am working to learn more about. Historically the stock market and gold are the typical inflation hedges but I don't see them working if the U.S. is hit with hyperinflation.

Tim

[shooter93]

I've run a small business for more years than I care to remember. I believe there has become vast difference between small and large businesses. Yes...we all have to make a profit but for pretty much all businesses and still for most small businesses profit was not the primary motivation for starting the business. It was to turn out an excellent product or service at a fair price while making a profit not profit above all other with little to no regard to employees or the country you started in.

[Echo]

^^^^^ Big Plus 1! As a Management Consultant for many years, I saw a range of businesses. The highest return was earned by a couple of disparate companies, that of about 22%. And a 100M company I worked at was doing only about 1% net. Believe me, large (jillion dollar) companies are dancing in the street if their net profits are 5%. That may be a Jillion dollars, but it is still only 5% of the overall gross. And that profit goes out to us, as Mutual Fund shareholders, or stockholders, whatever. Over-regulation is the name of the game now.
Remember when the US was the Land Of The Free? Not so much these days...

[Houndog]

What do you mean when you say "our economy fail" Do you mean when interest on Government debt gets so high that the government can't service its debt? Do you mean that when U.S. taxes get so high that companies move out of the country and the rich take their money overseas? Do you mean another recession or even depression with high unemployment? Do you mean runaway inflation. Each of these are possible and some like the next recession is unavoidable, historically it would be about time for the next recession but the last one and the FED's actions have been unprecedented, so hopefully it will be delayed. The rich and companies are sheltering their wealth overseas. No if the U.S. goes down the tubes the world will not go down the tubes, China is already working to create an economy that depends less on exports and more on local demand. The runaway inflation is a serious long term threat but it always is, hedging against inflation it something I am working to learn more about. Historically the stock market and gold are the typical inflation hedges but I don't see them working if the U.S. is hit with hyperinflation.

Tim

Tim, ANY and all of your listed reasons could bring about a total collapse of our economy, and in my way of thinking are all connected.I don't think it's an either-or that is coming, but all or most on your list will happen at the same time! Our nation's financial situation is poor at best. Add to that there are as many people on some sort of government assistance as they are working PLUS most of the illeagals now pouring into our country going straight to welfare instead of work. Couple that with the choke hold the EPA and other government regulations are placing on businesses. Is it any wonder businesses are closing their doors or moving off shore instead of staying here! I really don't think there's any way to avoid a total economic melt down in the US no matter which party is in control.

As far as the "next recession," I havn't really seen a recovery from the one we have presently! All you have to do is look at the labor participation rates and unemploymant numbers. Yes the unemployment FOR FIRST TIME APPLICANTS has decreased, but they are still in negitive territory! The GAO manipulates the unemployment number they want the unwashed to see to put as good a face on the economy as possible, but if you dig a little deeper you can find the true unemployment numbers, and currently they are somewhere around 18%

I sold my business just after the democrats took control of congress, bailed on the US stock market and invested the proceeds offshore. Could I have done better in the US? MAYBE, but I'll risk a little less profit for what I think is a more secure position any day. After all, our country now owes more to other countries than the entire GDP of the US! How much longer will it be before other countries start calling in their loans? I'm more than sure you know what happens then.

[dtknowles]

Tim, ANY and all of your listed reasons could bring about a total collapse of our economy, and in my way of thinking are all connected.I don't think it's an either-or that is coming, but all or most on your list will happen at the same time! Our nation's financial situation is poor at best. Add to that there are as many people on some sort of government assistance as they are working PLUS most of the illeagals now pouring into our country going straight to welfare instead of work. Couple that with the choke hold the EPA and other government regulations are placing on businesses. Is it any wonder businesses are closing their doors or moving off shore instead of staying here! I really don't think there's any way to avoid a total economic melt down in the US no matter which party is in control.

As far as the "next recession," I havn't really seen a recovery from the one we have presently! All you have to do is look at the labor participation rates and unemploymant numbers. Yes the unemployment FOR FIRST TIME APPLICANTS has decreased, but they are still in negitive territory! The GAO manipulates the unemployment number they want the unwashed to see to put as good a face on the economy as possible, but if you dig a little deeper you can find the true unemployment numbers, and currently they are somewhere around 18%

I sold my business just after the democrats took control of congress, bailed on the US stock market and invested the proceeds offshore. Could I have done better in the US? MAYBE, but I'll risk a little less profit for what I think is a more secure position any day. After all, our country now owes more to other countries than the entire GDP of the US! How much longer will it be before other countries start calling in their loans? I'm more than sure you know what happens then.

I am going to put this a gently as I can because you may be right and I may be wrong I but I don't think you are. I think your thinking is flawed, your analysis is faulty and your data is inaccurate. I don't mean that as an insult it is just my opinion and your conclusions could be right.

When you say our country, do you mean the Federal Government. The Federal Debt is less than the GDP and much of that debt is held by organizations in this country so: no our country does not owe to foreign countries than the GDP.

The unwashed do not read GAO reports or the CBO reports or anything like that if they pay attention at all it is to the mainstream media or conspiracy reports.

The GAO reports their methodology you can call it manipulated but they tell you how they get the data and how they analyze it and they and other data gathering organization report on the labor participation rates, the under employment rates, yada, yada, yada. It is not the data gathers and analysts who spin the numbers it is the media and administration lackeys. How could you have not seen the recovery, don't you remember how bad the great recession was, that is behind us. What you see now is one of the weakest recoveries of all times. We are experiencing growth at a rate about equal to the rate of population increase, so GDP growth per Capita is about zero. That is the recovery we have and it will not get much better before the next recession because the stimulus that got us here will be turned off. More people have jobs in this country now than have ever had jobs in this country. Their are more high paying jobs in this country than in any country on the planet. Did the great recession cut a big whole out of the middle class, yes it did. Employers cut all the fat and some of the lean. The dead wood is gone from private business, padded payrolls with un or under productive workers are gone for now (well almost). Too many workers in this country were not earning their pay. The public sector is still too fat, dumb and happy. The government needs to start cutting fat and lean too.

This new leaner workforce is now more competitive on the world stage and some jobs are coming back home even if the companies are moving their headquarters overseas. The American work force is, overall, the best in the world a great balance of talents and motivation.

The federal government, not the American economy is what will fail. American companies (except a bunch of over valued .com co.) are running very good balance sheets and produce great products that are need both domestically and world wide. The federal government is over extended and has made promises that they will not be able to keep. What that will do to the dollar it is hard to say, hyperinflation is a possibility.

Foreign governments cannot call in the loans they made to the Federal government. Federal bonds and Treasury Bills have maturities and if you want your money before the bonds or bills mature you have to sell them on the open market you can't force the Treasury to buy them back, that is how the loans are structured. If foreign governments do that or stop buying new issues of these loans then the interest rates will rise and a fiscal crisis will soon follow. If the U.S. Government has to default on its debt a lot of people will be hurt. We would probably see hyperinflation first.

Tim

[Handloader109]

Tim, few stats are wrong, there has been over 10 million new jobs created since nobama went into office, but there are over 25 million new job age workers. Big net loss. I do agree the government is heading for failure, but economy will tank when that happens. Too may freeloaders. Oh, and not directed at you, there are a lot of good big companies that look out for their workers and their customers.

[dtknowles]

Tim, few stats are wrong, there has been over 10 million new jobs created since nobama went into office, but there are over 25 million new job age workers. Big net loss. I do agree the government is heading for failure, but economy will tank when that happens. Too may freeloaders. Oh, and not directed at you, there are a lot of good big companies that look out for their workers and their customers.

Stats not wrong. You might have misunderstood when I said more Americans are working than ever before. I did not say that a larger percentage or what ever you thought I said. It is not a net loss but yes more people are unemployed as well as more working and more not working the population is growing and the rate of job creation is not keeping up with the number of new people who want jobs. It is not a net loss in jobs. If that is what you said your statement is incorrect.

You say too many freeloaders but I say what do you do with the millions of people you would not want in your work place? People who can't find their head with two hands or who by merely being there make the other workers less productive or even quit.

146,000,000 workers with jobs fy 2014
144,000,000 workers with jobs fy 2013
142,000,000 workers with jobs fy 2012
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146,000,000 workers with jobs fy 2008
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139,000,000 workers with jobs fy 2012
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137,000,000 workers with jobs fy 2001

[MaryB]

Government fire anyone? With the unions protecting them? Keep on dreaming, only way we are going to trim the federal government is to ban union membership for anyone being paid by the government, including state and local governments(schools especially).

[leftiye]

Blaming Obama is just scapegoating and ignores the fundamentals that are driving the changes. This has been coming for a long time and it is a freight train, it will not stop on a dime. It will actually not stop until a new balance has been achieved. Tim

I don't think Obummer is the whole pie. But to not blame him is to ignore his animus against America. His whole thing is reducing America's "footprint" in the world. Purposeful continual damage to all aspects of our culture.

[Handloader109]

Job Participation rates are at historical Low. Less people are working more on public dole. I hire Good college graduates, not students at $11.00 an hour. Impossible 8 yrs ago.