Load Data Thread for 7.62x25 Tokarovs and not 7.62x25 Mausers

[bruce drake]

So I am a proud possessor of a Romanian TT-33 Tokarov as of this week and busily preparing my first 200 cases for what I hope to be my first range trip with it soon. I'm been reforming and trimming 5.56 cases to the smaller 7.62x25 this week while I waited for the dies and a mold came from Midway. While I waited I cut the brass down below the neck with a pipe cutter and then formed the base of the 7.62x25 neck with my 300/221 Fireball dies.

And I received my LEE 7.62x25 Tokarov dies and the 30caliber 93gr roundnose mold in the mail from Midway today. Opened the case to pull the LEE load data for 7.62 TOK from the instruction sheet to see that they only recommended two powders and both of them being from Norma...Now come on people! Norma Powders are nearly extinct in my part of the United States...

Thankfully, my Sierra manual has several suggested powders to shoot with the LEE 93gr boolit. I just find it funny that the load data was pretty anemic from LEE's data sheet...

So do any other folks shoot the 7.62x25 on a regular basis and would you be willing to share the data here in this thread and perhaps a couple of photos of your pistols with either targets or small game that you've taken with the pistol which would be a great way of informing folks of this cartridge and its uses. I'll upload some photos on this thread of my pistol as well as the processes need to convert a 223 Remington case to 7.62x25 when you can't purchase the correct headstamped brass from your local gunstore.

Bruce

[Dan Cash]

I am loading for a C96 Mauser and a CZ52 but am using commercial brass. I would suggest starting with 4 grain Unique and work up very carefully. Your reformed brass has much less capacity than mine and the boiler room could get really hot really quickly.

[Outpost75]

I use the Accurate 31-087T bullet, cast of wheelweights quenchefrom the mold, tumbled in lee liquid alox it 5.5 grains of Bullseye in my CZ52 for 1420 fps. Try 5 grains and see if it cycles.

[Cowboy_Dan]

I'll keep my eye on this thread. I want to start loading for my Yugo M57.

[LAGS]

I have a Co- Worker that wants me to cast up some 100 Gr Lee .312 slugs for his Takorov, and wants to try them Powder Coated.
He is in no hurry as he hasn't got his dies yet.
But does anyone have any suggestions for loads, before he shoots up all the boolits that I cast for him in his 30/30

[frnkeore]

I've got a little data with my Norinco 54-1 and 110 gr Remington (Carbine) jacketed bullets.

11.5 gr WC 820, F100 primers, 1.37 COAL

1408 fps, ES 31, SD 12.4

I fired one shot at 12.0 gr and got 1472 fps

Factory S&B ammo went 1477 fps with a ES of 87, with the 85 gr bullet.

I like my 54-1 they are great pistols. So good that I went to the trouble of making a Red Dot sight mount for it.

Frank

[Tackleberry41]

They must have changed the data they put in the Lee dies. I have a set I bought 2 yrs ago, but only really lists loads for Acc # powders. Label on a box of 7.62x25 I loaded up a while ago says 12.9gr of H110 under a 90 XTP. Alot of printed data is going to tend to be pretty mild, way it tends to be when dealing w surplus weapons.

I have tried making the brass, just to much work when you can buy the brass. I know getting it back is usually an issue with these guns. I put a 7.62x25 barrel in a 1911, going to say strength is not really an issue, and w a 22lbs spring in it the brass doesnt go far.

[bruce drake]

I have about 75 rounds of S&B and PPU commercial bullets to shoot off as a baseline and to compare to my eventual reloads with the reformed military cases. Now it is a matter of casting the boolits, and then loading the military cases.

I love the responses already to this thread. I plan to develop loads with 800X for this thread to share with others.

Bruce

[mac60]

I have a Romanian version of the Tokarev like yours. I'd like to detail some problems I had to deal with when I first started working with it. Forming cases from 5.56/.223 was a pain. I used a Harbor Freight mini chop saw to shorten a bunch of random 5.56/.223 brass I had hoarded, then ran them through a Lee f/l sizing die, Then inside reamed the necks and wound up with necks .011" thick. I trimmed them to final length, chamfered/deburred and ran them through the f/l sizing die again. It was then I discovered an empty case would not chamber. A Little trouble shooting revealed the shoulder wasn't being pushed back far enough. The 2 options were to remove material from the s/h or from the bottom of the die. The folks at Lee were kind enough to modify my die (no charge). I cast some Lee 311-93-1R out of coww and sized .311 (bore slugged .3105). I then discovered the largest diameter boolit that would chamber was .309". Finding a powder/charge weight that would give 100% reliability was next. I ultimately found out 7.0 gr. of Blue dot cycled my pistol and was accurate enough for my purposes (3" to 4" @ 20 yds.). I was happy to see minimal leading. Here's the pistol in question.

118833

The results of several hours work.

118834

A few loaded rounds.

118835

I thought I had a target to show, but couldn't find it. I enjoyed the experience - every moment of it. This may not mirror anyone else's experiences with the cartridge - but that's how it shook out for me. At any rate I have a safe/reliable load to shoot for minimal cost.

[frnkeore]

A picture of mine with the red dot mount that I made for it. I think of them as exceptional pistols. Not a lot of recoil, very accurate and very powerfull. With the accuracy and velocity they generate, they can well use use a scope or red dot.

Frank
119005119006

[spfd1903]

I have a Polish TT-33 and a CZ-52. Molds that are used: Lyman 313249 (85 grain), Lyman 311252 (75 grain), Lee C309-113-F. Sources for load data: Lyman CB Handbook 4th Edition, Load data.com, Makarov.com, and Lee 2nd edition manual. Alloy for all boolits was 50% Lead, 50% Linotype.
Loads that cycled both pistols and stayed within an inch of the bullseye at 35 ft. :
85 grain- Acc#2 5.0 grains, OAL 1.29, sized to .309, New Starline brass
75 grain-Acc#2 5.2 grains, OAL 1.28, " , "
113 grain-Acc#7 7.0 grains, OAL 1.24, " , "

Hornady # 3100 86 grain soft point, Acc#2, 5.7 grain, OAL 1.37
Hornady #31000 90 grain HP/XTP, H110 12.0 grain, OAL 1.32

All cast boolits were same POI at 35 ft., same groups, from the CZ-52. The TT-33 was only accurate with the 113 grain boolit. I am going to try another round of loads for the TT-33 using the largest diameter that will chamber as it slugs just under .312". The CZ-52 shoots the Hornady bullets with more accuracy also.

[Brett Ross]

I'm still struggling with mine and put it down for a bit, Polish Tok. My issues stem from a large bore .313 grove with a tight neck that will not chamber a .314 sized boolit. I have sized boolit to .311 and run them back though the FL size die, so not sure what the end up squeezed down to but they work. Leading is moderate and accuracy is 5-8" at 25 yds. I have purchased a neck turner to see if that work better than reaming the necks (also using 223 brass). I think getting cast to shoot well in this odd, tight necked old war horse may not be in the cards but will be keeping close tabs on this thread.
Tony

[bruce drake]

I took my Romanian TT-33 to the range yesterday and I will tell you the surplus ammo put the brass down about 8ft from me...The PPU and the S&B brass was ejected about 15ft or so away in the TALL grass...I think I rescued about half the commercial brass I shot before I switched over to the berdan surplus stuff which I didn't mind losing. At 50 yards and using a two hand supported hold I was able to use the military sights to be on target at 50 yards. I'm going to like shooting this pistol although I'm sure the cast lead loads will be a little slower now that I have reloadable brass (not enough...) to work with.

[bruce drake]

NICE! You know, If I had another I would have to copy your efforts and then take it my local Bullseye pistol match and use it in the centerfire portion of the 2700 Match!

My Romanian has its BATF safety placed right below and to the rear of the slide stop lever. I see yours is towards the hammer. interesting that each importer placed their BATF safety in different places.


A picture of mine with the red dot mount that I made for it. I think of them as exceptional pistols. Not a lot of recoil, very accurate and very powerfull. With the accuracy and velocity they generate, they can well use use a scope or red dot.

Frank
119005119006

[bruce drake]

mac60, what was the lube that you used?

[kopperl]

I've had good luck with 6.5gr unique and 110gr Seirra spire points. They have to be seated a little deep but work well in both pistol and carbine.

[mac60]

Bruce did you give up on making brass from .223/5.56? I made my mind up at the get-go I wasn't gonna pay for tokarev brass when .223/5.56 was laying all over the ground for free. Aside from the 93 gr. cast boolit (lubed with Randy rat's TAC1), I use 71 gr. fmj bullets commonly loaded in .32 acp. I run 'em through a .309 push through sizer. I hope it works out for you.

edit: Bruce I just remembered the first 50 I loaded were coated with LLA as well as lubed with TAC1.

[bruce drake]

Nope, just a little busy to post on the process. Step by step on using 5.56 brass to prepare the brass for reloading.

1. I selected 200 fired brass at random out of my 223 Rem Range brass coffee can proceeded to deprime them using a 257 Roberts resizing die. This allowed me to bring the neck up from .223 with an intermediate stage as I find I don't tear the necks as often as when I go from 22 to 30 caliber in once swipe.

2. I then reformed the neck of the 223 rem cases with a 300BLK resizing die. This also pushed the 30 caliber neck down to 7.62x35 dimensions with a new shoulder and a very long neck.

3. I then used a pipe cutter to cut the neck down to a more manageable length (roughly at 35mm in overall shell length)

4. Using a pipe cutter causes the neck to squeeze down most time so I then use a 7.7 Arisaka resizing die to open the necks up to .310 which is large enough for me to use the LEE Case Length Gauge cutting system to them trim the cases down to the proper 25mm finally.

5. I chamfer and deburr the case mouth and primer pocket (to remove any primer crimps) and then finally run it through the 7.62x25Tok Resizing die to properly set the neck and shoulder of the reformed case and its ready to be reprimed & reloaded .

For cast lead loads, I plan to use Lee's 93gr RN mold and I will use a neck expander allow the cast bullet to seat without the case mouth shaving the sides of the bullet.
for jacketed loads, the mouth expansion isn't required but is recommended as that way all brass is ready for either cast or jacketed. I've already made 10 dummy rounds out of the first 200 cases made this way. 5 are loaded with 93gr RN boolits sized at .309 and 5 are loaded with Hornady's 100gr RN bullet that they make for 30 carbine rounds. All ten cycle and chamber in my Tokarov with no issues.

I owe you all pictures of the process.

Bruce

[bruce drake]

I've had good luck with 6.5gr unique and 110gr Seirra spire points. They have to be seated a little deep but work well in both pistol and carbine.

I like this load as I have a 115gr mold and once I can gain another pound of Unique from the LGS, this will have to be tested out

[mac60]

There's more than one way to skin a cat Bruce. I'm glad it's working out for you.

[GhostHawk]

I found out my shooting buddy was sitting on a bag of .223 blanks that he doesn't have a gun for.

So I'm using those to make cases for my 7.62x25 Cz-52.

I have a Lee loader for the 7.62x54r and I discovered that I could put a cut off .223 blank (with primer) into the resizing die, followed by a flat head punch, give it about 11 good raps with the hammer, and Voila, neck is formed. Drop out, bell the mouth slightly with a center punch, then use my RCBS deburring tool to clean up inside and out.

I have not fired these yet and I am still looking for a good mold.

7.62x25 dies are inbound, and I will run them through that prior to loading.

I was able to get a couple of pounds of Red Dot from Bass Pro shops recently.

[bruce drake]

I haven't seen Red Dot in nearly 2 years. Good Score!

Did you cut the 7.62x54R sizing die down to size at 25mm as I can't picture you forming a 7.62x25 with a complete 7.62x54Rsizing die which is cut to form an approximately 54mm length case.

Bruce

[GhostHawk]

That is where the punch comes in, remember the punch?

The only thing cut is the .223 case.

Drop the .223 cut down shell casing into the lee loader.
As you noted it goes way way down there to where the neck sizer is.

I say to self "Self, this thing will I think put a 7.62 neck on this brass if I can find a way to reach that .223 case in there.

Self goes "Hey idiot, put something in there with a nice sized flat end, something solid, hold it in your lap so the other end of the lee die is held in place against the crease between my stomach and my leg. Then grab that little hammer you got over there, and WHACK it. After you do that a few times, compare it against a factory load. Match em up, keep whacking till they are both the same"

I say to self Ohhh, good idea, let me try that.

Dang if it didn't work. Note, I am hitting the working end of the punch, using the end you would normally hit to drive the brass into the die.
Not elegant, not suave and debonair. No press involved, its strictly a low class farm boy operation.
No guarantee's of success for anyone else. Indeed your mileage may vary.

Update!

Have had a chance to refine this system a bit.

Lee dies I agree do not really push the neck far enough down.
Lee trim system however does a great job of turning the inside of the neck down and giving me uniform length. Being a little shorter doesn't hurt on that bullet into the chamber either.

Range report puts them all into about a 6" circle at 25 feet. Not perfect, not super accurate, but not terrible either.

I have tried making a few from once fired .223 brass but the neck seems a fair bit thicker.

[bruce drake]

I see you like to think out of the box to fix an issue. Sounds like the 7.62x25 is right up your alley.

[Kilroy08]

The only load I've got worked up so far is as follows:

100 grain .309 LRN (Actually for .30 carbine)

3.0 grains of Red Dot

Milsurp small rifle primer (I used what was still in the cases I converted, no sense in wasting a good primer)

Case formed from Lake City M200 5.56X45 blanks. (I had a bunch and knew I'd never use them otherwise)

I've also used regular small pistol primers.

The load seems accurate enough to terrorize tin cans. It's also courteous enough to drop the spent brass right at your feet.

I've been too busy to come up with anything else for my Romanian Tokarev.

[rbuck351]

My Dad brought home a Russian T-33 from WWII and I decided to try to shoot it about 40 years ago. Ammo did not exist in the US at the time but I found a box of 30Mauser in an old gun store that fit close enough to work. I also found a set of 30Mauser dies that worked. It didn't take long before I needed more brass so I made a couple hundred from 38spl brass. That is labor intensive. You have to lathe off the rim and cut an extractor groove then size them and trim to length. They are very close to proper body size when done. I also outside turn the necks in order to get a big enough cast bullet to chamber as the neck area is tight. I'm using a Lyman mold that throws a 93gr boolit and 6grs of Unique. Since then I have found several hundred 7.62x25 commercial cases so I no longer make them but I still have to outside turn the necks. Sometimes I wonder why I go to all the trouble.