got some round lead balls to try in my 45-70 ...

[wquiles]

I want to try shooting lead round balls in my 45-70, but the bore in my H&R single shoot measured just shy of .459", so instead of using the .457" round balls, after doing more research I decided to use .490" balls sized for my particular barrel instead.

I already had the Speer .490" RB's in hand, so I ordered a Lee .457" sizing die kit from Midway. I followed these instructions to lap/open up the sizing die, and checked frequently for progress (I am using an RCBS Rockchucker press for the "sizing" operation):
http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/HowTo/How%20to%20Hone%20a%20Size%20Die.pdf

To create a baseline I sized one in my Lee die "as is":
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/45-70/490RBs/20141005_154820.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/45-70/490RBs/20141005_154826.jpg


Calipers are not accurate enough, so I am using my good micrometer:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/45-70/490RBs/20141005_154956.jpg


Following the instructions, I worked and measured my progress, with 220 grit sandpaper:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/45-70/490RBs/20141005_160050.jpg


Then I got closer to my .460" target, I changed to the 600 grit sandpaper:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/45-70/490RBs/20141005_161031.jpg


But the 600 grit worked too slowly!!!
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/45-70/490RBs/20141005_162157.jpg


by the way, here is the rod I used. The instructions said to use steel, but the only thing I had close to the right diameter was this Titanium rod, so that is what I used:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/45-70/490RBs/20141005_162312.jpg


After going to the 220 grit, I finally got really close to my target diameter:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/45-70/490RBs/20141005_162734.jpg


I went back to the 600 grit and proceeded slowly. I then checked - close enough:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/45-70/490RBs/20141005_164054.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/45-70/490RBs/20141005_163217.jpg

[wquiles]

(Rest of the photos - limited to 10x at a time)



It is interesting that the sizing (swagging?) tears up this small skirt on the bottom of the bullet:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/45-70/490RBs/20141005_163942.jpg


Once you remove this skirt, the bottom looks "beveled":
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/45-70/490RBs/20141005_164542.jpg


Not "perfect", but these should work well for plinking :)

I have to check the powders I have (besides Trailboss) to see what I can use for these now.

Will

[mac60]

Will, they should work great for a plinking load. Do you have Bullseye, Unique or Red dot? Any one of those three ought to give you what you need. I have a RB load for my .22 hornet Handi rifle. A #4 buckshot sized to .225 over 1 gr. of Red dot is a lot of fun to shoot. Good luck with it.

[wquiles]

Will, they should work great for a plinking load. Do you have Bullseye, Unique or Red dot? Any one of those three ought to give you what you need. I have a RB load for my .22 hornet Handi rifle. A #4 buckshot sized to .225 over 1 gr. of Red dot is a lot of fun to shoot. Good luck with it.

Don't have those yet. Might have to go and buy some of those to try.

This is what I got:
Winchester Action Pistol (used to use it a lot for my 45ACP mild loads)
Vihtavuori N350
Accurate No. 7
Hodgdon Tite Group
Hodgdon Long Shot
Hodgdon Lil' Gun
HodgdonTrail Boss

I can always use Trail Boss since it is so bulky :)


For lubing the "bullets", I ordered some 45-45-10 from here:
http://lsstuff.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=31

Will

[wquiles]

I got the 45-45-10 X-Lox, and lubed the round balls prior to sizing:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/45-70/490RBs/IMG_20141014_175647.jpg


I am so happy I found/read the thread on the 45-45-10: this stuff is totally awesome as it dried quickly, not sticky (unlike Alox), and even the sizing was smoother:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/45-70/490RBs/IMG_20141014_182625.jpg


I then lube them again after sizing - very quick drying!:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/45-70/490RBs/IMG_20141015_070917.jpg


Instead of the raged skirt (prior to using X-Lox) I now get near perfect sizing:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/45-70/490RBs/IMG_20141015_071037.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/45-70/490RBs/IMG_20141015_071104.jpg


Side note - I purchased these for a muzzle loading rifle I no longer shoot 10+ years ago - notice what I paid for these back then!
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/45-70/490RBs/IMG_20141014_182824.jpg

[Scharfschuetze]

I look forward to the range results. I had some fun in Trapdoor Springfields with round balls several years ago. I lubed by just seating the RB into the case with its maximum diameter just below the lip of the case. I then just used a few drops of Lee Liquid Alox dribbled around the ball. The lip of the case then held the lube till it dried. That worked pretty well and while I only had minute of rabbit accuracy to 50 yards, it was a nice project.

As I recall, I used both Bullseye and Greendot powders. Fast pistol powder is probably the best option with the light-for-bore boolit weight.

Your projectiles look like they will shoot pretty well and most likely better than a round ball given their longer bearing surface.

By the way, that was a nice photo essay.

[wquiles]

Thanks Scharf. Loading them (surprisingly enough) was not trivial!

Unfortunately, the loading dies that I am using don't allow me to seat this low/close to the mouth of the case without crimping at the same time!. Basically I needed a longer seating stem, so I had to make one from scratch:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/45-70/490RBs/IMG_20141018_213718.jpg


This is the 2nd seating stem I made for this Hornady seating die. From left to right: OEM, shortie that I made, which I used with the flat point bullets, and the new longer one I made for these round balls:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/45-70/490RBs/IMG_20141018_214227.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/45-70/490RBs/IMG_20141018_214237.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/45-70/490RBs/IMG_20141018_214316.jpg



Once I had that made, everything went smoothly (these are neck-sized only cases):
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/45-70/490RBs/IMG_20141018_220307.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/45-70/490RBs/IMG_20141018_221912.jpg



This gives you an idea of the potentially larger bearing area:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/45-70/490RBs/IMG_20141018_200015.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/45-70/490RBs/IMG_20141018_200057.jpg


Will

[NavyVet1959]

A .490 round ball should weigh about 178.5 gr. if you are looking for a mold to cast your own, here is an option.

http://buckshotmold.com

[longbow]

I did much the same for my .44 mag Marlin using .440" RB's sized to 0.434". Not quite the extreme sizing you are doing but still produced a nice bearing area around the equator.

You might find less distortion if you made a hemispherical punch for the sizing operation. A formed fit would likely result in less sideways squishing.

Also, if you were going to cast your own I would suggest wheelwights rather than soft lead.

Nonetheless those look good and should shoot well at least to moderate velocities. Can't help with loads for .45-70 though. The lightest boolit I ever shot in mine were some old collar buttons at about 130 grs. IIRC and I loaded those over Unique but that was about 40 years ago and I do not recall details other than they shot very well with little recoil (no kidding!).

There's lot's of folks on this site that have loaded round balls and lightweight collar button style boolits though so you should get some first hand advice.

And +2 for a nice write up and great photos.

Longbow

[Wizwheel]

.375 RB sized to .358 works great in the 357Mag. Perfect for the first time shooter!

[GoodOlBoy]

Will I love what you have done here. gives me all kinds of ideas, and honestly I think that is going to be a heck of a good round for you.

GoodOlBoy

[GoodOlBoy]

I was just looking and Lee will do a custom Lube and size kit all the way up to .575 for $34. I am seriously thinking about copying your work on this one for my H&R and 45-70.

GoodOlBoy

[wquiles]

I was just looking and Lee will do a custom Lube and size kit all the way up to .575 for $34. I am seriously thinking about copying your work on this one for my H&R and 45-70.

GoodOlBoy

Enlarging the .457" Lee die using the link in my first post is not difficult, just a little slow. It is hard to mess up since you are cutting a little at a time.

As to the range performance, I did go to the range on Sunday, and had to go back home: the range was packed, and with many folks waiting for a turn at the 50 & 100 yard lines. I hope to try again this coming weekend as I am dying to know how those swaged round balls will do at 50 yards :bigsmyl2:

[wquiles]

Finally, range time today. About 65F, windy, but a very nice day at the range:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/shooting_range/20141102_160039.jpg


This was at 50 yards with my "heavier" loads (still relatively mild, 405gr lead bullet and 40gr VARGET), as I wanted a baseline first.
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/shooting_range/20141102_161812.jpg


And these are the 5-shot groups that I got at 50 yards, using the "swagged" round balls.
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/shooting_range/20141102_173414.jpg


Since these lack the "edge" that the flat point bullets have (VARGET loads above with the Oregon Trail 405gr), these round nose do more "damage" to the target paper:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/shooting_range/20141102_173436.jpg


I loaded this batch with 7, 7.5, and 8gr of Titegroup with a foam filler, but did not see much difference in the 50yard grouping (lower right had 10x shots instead of 5x). Barrel bore was/looked "dirty", but no leading that I could see:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/shooting_range/20141102_173429.jpg


I did try at 100 yards, but the opened up more than the proportionally 2x - more like 3x. So I would say these are "good enough" for plinking at 50yard or less as the recoil was very low, and the noise was also a lot lower. Definitely fun to shoot at the range today, and there is definitely room for improvement.

[GoodOlBoy]

Looks good. I mean heck what more could you ask for?

GoodOlBoy

[wquiles]

Yup, not too bad. I did not take my chronograph with me, but QuickLoad predicted about 1229 fps with the 8gr TiteGroup.

[gpidaho]

I shoot .311 sized 0 Buckshot LLA lubed out of my 762x39R Encore over 1.8 Bullseye or Tight Group seated to the size mark. This is a very economical load and a good 22lr replacement. I shot 50 into a 4" circle at 25yrds with only a couple straying. Would probably do better out of a rifle as I'm old and shaky with this 15' Handgun GP

[wquiles]

I have been wondering how much more can I push these, and I found this site (http://www.montanabulletworks.com/page9.html) that states that the max chamber pressure for pure lead is about 7700psi. When I run that by QuickLoad I get that (in theory) I could use up to 27gr of Lil'Gun and achieve 7504psi and 1544 fps - wow!. For about 177gr lead bullet that is about 939 ft-lbs of energy, which (for comparison only) is about 2x the muzzle energy from 45ACP ammo (http://www.ballistics101.com/45_acp.php), and not too far off from the lower-end 44Magnum levels (http://www.ballistics101.com/44_magnum.php) :veryconfu

[karlrudin]

128230

This was my result of the instructions from the beginning of this thread. I did a few things different. I took Hornady .495 caliber balls and sized them in my .458 Lyman sizing die. Did not lube them. Loaded them in Star cases, LR primer, H4227 at 22gr. Seated the bullet till the sized part of the bullet was flush with the mouth of the case. Crimped the mouth down .002 into the bullet. This group is at 50 yards, sunny day about 50 degrees. This was the last group of 5 starting from 19gr to 22gr. My ONLY complaint was unburnt powder in the barrel and partially in the chamber. Would using filler reduce the unburnt powder or leave the load alone. I thought it turned out pretty good. Input please, these light easy loads and are cheap to load. Thanks

[wquiles]

128230

This was my result of the instructions from the beginning of this thread. I did a few things different. I took Hornady .495 caliber balls and sized them in my .458 Lyman sizing die. Did not lube them. Loaded them in Star cases, LR primer, H4227 at 22gr. Seated the bullet till the sized part of the bullet was flush with the mouth of the case. Crimped the mouth down .002 into the bullet. This group is at 50 yards, sunny day about 50 degrees. This was the last group of 5 starting from 19gr to 22gr. My ONLY complaint was unburnt powder in the barrel and partially in the chamber. Would using filler reduce the unburnt powder or leave the load alone. I thought it turned out pretty good. Input please, these light easy loads and are cheap to load. Thanks

That was awesome - good job!

I am in the process of loading a new batch myself, so I hope to test them in the next couple of weeks.

[nanuk]

dead bambi inside 100 yds with that load

[karlrudin]

dead bambi inside 100 yds with that load

Yeah these should be somewhere around 1250fps at the muzzle, extrapolating, and would do the job for a third eye, but all I do is kill paper nowadays. Unless I get hungry :smile:

[wquiles]

Loaded a new batch today. The OAL is slightly longer, and the ball now touches the lands when loaded (also testing some new PC'ed boolits):
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/45-70/490RBs/20150130_120941.jpg

[karlrudin]

Those are some nice "heavy" bullets lol. I love shooting those balls. They work great at 50 yards. Mostly where I shoot cast so its a win/win.

[wquiles]

These are still my left-over balls from my 50 cal muzzle loaded rifle, but once I am done with them, I have to consider what other "really lightweight" bullet that I can cast and that can be sized at .460". Right now there is a group buy for a new lightweight bullet at the NOE forums which I already signed up for:
http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php/topic,494.0.html

[wquiles]

OK, second and last try with these. At 50 yards again:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/shooting_range/Feb6_2015/20150206_151630.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/shooting_range/Feb6_2015/20150206_151644.jpg


That above was the best I could do. And it wasn't "me", as I shot these with my "hunting load":
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/shooting_range/Feb6_2015/20150206_151703.jpg


I am just going to wait until I get the NOE collar button bullet instead :)

Will

[Certaindeaf]

Yeah these should be somewhere around 1250fps at the muzzle, extrapolating, and would do the job for a third eye, but all I do is kill paper nowadays. Unless I get hungry :smile:
I've always wondered what a pulled .457 ball out a Ruger Old Army would look like.. sure shears off a hank and with it mashed down over 45grs of FFF'll do 3" at 100yds from the bags.

[karlrudin]

OK, second and last try with these. At 50 yards again:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/shooting_range/Feb6_2015/20150206_151630.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/shooting_range/Feb6_2015/20150206_151644.jpg


That above was the best I could do. And it wasn't "me", as I shot these with my "hunting load":
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/shooting_range/Feb6_2015/20150206_151703.jpg


I am just going to wait until I get the NOE collar button bullet instead :)

Will

I found out yesterday that these are not for cold and overcast miserable days like yesterday. The good group I was getting at 50 yds went to hell in a handbasket. They wouldn't barely stay on a 8.5 x 11" sheet of paper. Oh well, they will wait for spring :)

[wquiles]

I found out yesterday that these are not for cold and overcast miserable days like yesterday. The good group I was getting at 50 yds went to hell in a handbasket. They wouldn't barely stay on a 8.5 x 11" sheet of paper. Oh well, they will wait for spring :)
I hear you loud and clear bud! I am definitely looking forward to the NOE collar button group buy (I am ordering a 4x cavity Al mold).

Will

[BAGTIC]

Seems like a lot of trouble for what is basically a plinking load. Use your Quick Load to see what you get with about 8 grains of Red Dot with the ball seated deep, about 1.5 inches, directly on the powder. You would probably get about the same velocity with a lot less powder, recoil, noise.