Range Scrap vs. COWW?

[zanemoseley]

Just got my first .45acp boolits cast last weekend from COWW and was very pleased with the result. I'm on a hunt for more lead so I can stock pile it a bit before leads gets phased out of the WW market. The WW suppliers buy back weights from the local shops for a rate of about $.40 a pound (they actually supply boxes which they give $15 credit for, a 5 gallon bucket fills about 4 boxes). The first batch of COWW's I bought I got 85 pounds of lead ingots from a bucket starting out at 120 pounds. I only have one indoor range in the area and they said one guy usually buys all their scrap lead but offered me a batch for $.40 a pound. After reading a bit it seems some people like to stay with COWW since its a more known alloy than a mixed bag of bullets.

So if you have the opportunity to get $.40/lb COWW or range scrap which would you buy? I know a lot of you get lead cheaper but thus far I haven't had any luck finding it cheaper. The local scrap yard only pays $.10 but its a chain and they won't resell what they buy. I have an ad on our local classified board offering $.20 a pound but haven't had any bites yet. I'll keep jumping the $ per pound up till I get some takers.

[Shiloh]

Range scrap works great. My .45 ACP are all range scrap. I get superb accuracy, no leading, no fail to function. Rifle boolits may get a little lino if the water dropping doesn't harden them up. 50/50 WW and range scrap water dropped gets them adequately hard for .30 cal rifle.

Shiloh

[histed]

Don't know where you are, but I'd jump on almost anything at .40/lb. I have found COWW at .50 and figured I did very well. Most yards in my area get 1.00/lb or more for COWW. Range scrap was free for a while, but the range redid the burms and burried a lot of before we could "mine" the area. I shoot both from a pair of 9mms, a .38 snubbie and a 4" K Frame. Everything is tumble lubed and I haven't tried pushing the range scrap beyond about 850-900 fps. No problems either way. I'm sure the more experienced guys will chime in shortly.

[wv109323]

If the range scrap is from mostly cast bullets then I would lean toward the range scrap. The lead within jacketed bullets is near pure lead. If from cast bullets the lead was good enough for bullets to start with. The exception is .22 LR lead.The range scrap will have a higher recovery per cent. With COWW your recovery was around 70 per cent making the price around 55 cents per pound.

[CHeatermk3]

If the range scrap has a lot of jacketed bullets in it you can smelt them down and skim off the floating jackets and sell them at the scrap yard for a tidy sum. Pistol range berms typically have lotsa jacketed bullets.

[dtknowles]

If the range scrap is from mostly cast bullets then I would lean toward the range scrap. The lead within jacketed bullets is near pure lead. If from cast bullets the lead was good enough for bullets to start with. The exception is .22 LR lead.The range scrap will have a higher recovery per cent. With COWW your recovery was around 70 per cent making the price around 55 cents per pound.

I used to believe that the lead in jacketed bullets was mostly pure lead but I don't believe that anymore. Do you have a reference that indicates that the lead in Jacketed bullets is almost pure? I sort of sort my range scrap into Jacketed, Cast and .22 as best I can without spending a lot of effort. I don't do large volumes as it is for my own use and I only get limited amounts of range scrap. The lead from the jacketed bullets seems to run 8-9 BHN, not what I would expect from pure.

Tim

[zanemoseley]

Its a pretty short range, 20yd I think. I would think there's lots of jacketed pistol bullets in there as well as a lot of .22's.

[sundog]

Quite a few years ago I called several bullet manufacturers. Felix and I and a few others on the old Shooters.com had this discussion a long time ago. Techs I talked to told me that cores on most jacketed bullets were pretty close to pure lead, unless they were intended for special use. No telling what they use now, but I would think that they would not spend more on them than necessary.

[dtknowles]

Quite a few years ago I called several bullet manufacturers. Felix and I and a few others on the old Shooters.com had this discussion a long time ago. Techs I talked to told me that cores on most jacketed bullets were pretty close to pure lead, unless they were intended for special use. No telling what they use now, but I would think that they would not spend more on them than necessary.

Did the techs share any numbers with you. Pretty close to pure lead is not very specific. We talking like 99.9% lead or 99.5% lead? Just a half a percent of antimony will get me a BHN of 9 if I can trust the alloy calculator which I don't think I can for almost pure.

Does anyone have hardness numbers for cast pure lead vs. swaged pure lead? I have read that lead softens when it is worked so does core lead get softer when it is extruded and then formed. I will go test one of the swaged lead balls I bought to shoot in a muzzle loader but I am not going to melt them down to see if they get harder when I cast them as balls. I don't have any lead that tests under 8 BHN unless these balls test lower.

Tim

[dragon813gt]

I'd rather deal w/ range scrap. A lot less cleanup. And the alloy is more consistent. Wheel weight lead is anything but consistent. You can't really trust the old values from back in the day. They're all over the place and did I mention the mess you have to clean up?

[tazman]

I get most of my lead from indoor range scrap. Lots of jacketed. lots of 22lr. Some cast. I water quench as I cast. My boolits come out 18+bhn. They work just fine in my 38/357 and 9mm.
If you can get range scrap for $.40, jump on it. Even if you only recover about 75%(which is what mine runs), final cost is only $.53 per pound.
At 45-60 boolits per pound that's as cheap as you can get around here and lots cheaper than buying from online suppliers.

[dkf]

I really like range scrap and a lot of I get ahold of is around 10bhn sometimes harder.(usually a mix of cast, plated and jacketed) I have melted down a number of jacketed pistol and rifle bullets both fmj and jhp and a lot them are harder than pure lead for sure. I have also crushed a bunch in the arbor press.

[twc1964]

I use range scrap for the most part. I am getting about 8-9 bhn on mine and after i toss in some pewter and a dozen or so really hard cast boolits in the mix i get around 12 bhn . Works for me in 45acp, 9mm and 38-357.

[dtknowles]

Ok, I just did some tests, take them with a grain of salt. Not really scientific.

I tested a Hornady swaged round ball with my Lee tester and got an indent of 0.122 inches in diameter. The chart I got with the tester only goes down to 0.079 inches for a BHN of 8.0. Linear extrapolation put that at a BHN of less than 6.0 but the scale is not linear and I am not going to try to do a curve fit. Lets just say that is really really soft and probably pure lead.

I tested a cast round ball I cast a long time ago but I expect that at the time I tried to use the softest lead I had on hand. Probably a mixture of SOWW, .22 rimfire bullets and pellets from my air-rifle trap. I got an indent of 0.103 inches. Again off the scale but extrapolated to a BHN of 7 or so.

Finally I pulled a 45 caliber FMJ out of my bin of unsmelted range scrap and I pealed off the jacket. On it, I got an indent of 0.078 inches for a BHN of 8.1

Tim

[Shiloh]

Range scrap changes with every lot you pick up. If there is a lot of cast, it'll be a bit harder. Lead from jacketed bullets may not be pure, but is on the soft side.

Shiloh

[Bigslug]

I am in a happy situation of being able to pick up a lot of range scrap off the ground, and reclaim decent quantities of birdshot. I figure between the two, I can pretty much MAKE wheel weights.

I am in the UNHAPPY situation of living in the Land of the California Condor Cuddlers. While I'll gleefully glom onto any old wheel weights I find, and have feelers out for more, I pretty much consider them an alloy of fortune. I'd rather deal with re-incarnating bullets into bullets than sort out zinc.

[btroj]

Won't go wrong with either one. Both vary from batch to batch but that is easy to deal with.

[dtknowles]

Range scrap changes with every lot you pick up. If there is a lot of cast, it'll be a bit harder. Lead from jacketed bullets may not be pure, but is on the soft side.

Shiloh

That is why I do a quick sort on my range scrap. I can only pick up what is laying on the ground as the ranges does not allow digging in the berms. I sort the obvious cast from jacketed and .22 rimfires and shotgun slugs. I wish I could find more of the even softer lead but mostly I end up with .45 and .40 FMJ's.

Tim

[Shiloh]

That is why I do a quick sort on my range scrap. I can only pick up what is laying on the ground as the ranges does not allow digging in the berms. I sort the obvious cast from jacketed and .22 rimfires and shotgun slugs. I wish I could find more of the even softer lead but mostly I end up with .45 and .40 FMJ's.

Tim

Shotgun slugs are soft, massive chunks of metal.
When "Mining" the berm, it really only consists of scraping the surface into my rectangle sieve with 1/4" screen on it.
I pck out the rocks, clods, wads, chunks of plywood backer and have it smelted. My buddy has the smelter.

Shiloh

[btroj]

I just move the surface dirt with my hand or foot. No digging. It is amazing how much you can get by handpicking. Today was a bad day, it rained recently and the surface is pretty hard. I need lots more shooting to occur to loosen the surface. Despite all that I came home with 35 pounds. I love high volume handgunners!

[Shiloh]

Four screens fills a 2 1/2 gal. bucketa bit more than 2/3's full. Thats all I fill it for weight and to not tear the bottom out of it.
Four of these buckets fills a 5 gal. plastic bucket. Currently have four to smelt.

Shiloh

[fredj338]

At 40c/# for good lead coww, I am buying all I can stack. The lead ww is going bye, bye sooner than later. So 1000# would be a good investment. Out here, the lead ww is pretty much dead. I am down o berm mining at the couple of private ranges I go to.

[dtknowles]

Shotgun slugs are soft, massive chunks of metal.
When "Mining" the berm, it really only consists of scraping the surface into my rectangle sieve with 1/4" screen on it.
I pck out the rocks, clods, wads, chunks of plywood backer and have it smelted. My buddy has the smelter.

Shiloh

I love finding slugs, wish there were more, they are just what I need more of. No digging of berms here means no tools on the berm and no climbing on the slope only ok to pick stuff up on level just behind the target stands. Access to the area is only during cold range while people check targets. I will not hold up shooting to collect lead so I head back to the benches before the last target checker. Last two trips to the range it was very busy and I did not pick up any lead. Twice the range was cold and I did not even go down range to check my targets because I still had plenty of clean targets and had spotted my shots using a spotting scope.

Tim

[dtknowles]

I just move the surface dirt with my hand or foot. No digging. It is amazing how much you can get by handpicking. Today was a bad day, it rained recently and the surface is pretty hard. I need lots more shooting to occur to loosen the surface. Despite all that I came home with 35 pounds. I love high volume handgunners!

I am lucky if I get 10 pounds from a trip to the range, there is very little time to collect lead and the berm is very hard as the soil has a lot of clay in it. I can usually collet as much lead as I shoot so at least I break even.

Tim

[btroj]

My club has multiple, independent pistol bays. With high berms between them I can have one to myself and spend plenty of time gathering spent bullets. I don't tie it up if others want to shoot but that is easy. I have a job where I am off one weekday each week, not many people shooting on Tues or Fri morning.

A good day is 40 pounds, 75 is great. A couple years back my daughter and I hit 151 pounds in a day.

Your comment about breaking even is the best thing to do. I figure if I always break even or run a surplus I can't ever run out!

[Yodogsandman]

My club just covered the berms in fresh bark mulch making it near impossible to mine anymore. I'd just started mining this summer in Aug!

[dragon813gt]

My club just covered the berms in fresh bark mulch making it near impossible to mine anymore. I'd just started mining this summer in Aug!

So what's the rest look like? Is it grass covered or exposed dirt. I won't say I'm lucky because it sucks for good portions of the year. But there is no ground cover at the main range I frequent. The best time to go is after it's rained hard for the first time in a week or two. It washes a good bit into the natural drainage ditches that have formed. Just start at the firing line and work my way forward. The rain will wash a lot directly underneath the backers. I don't spend a lot of time picking up lead. I figure as long as I'm close to what I shot that day it will take me a long time to shoot it all up.

[zanemoseley]

Well I was off work today and went to the range for a while. After I got done shooting there was nobody else there so I went to the end of the 50 yd range. Once I got looking there were bullets laying everywhere. I ended up picking up 13lb of bullets in probably 20-30 minutes, enough for about 400 .45 boolits, not bad.

[lightman]

I've cast and shot lots of both, and both work well. Wheel weights are probably more consistent than random range lead, but they need to be sorted. Range lead may become easier to find than wheel weights. Its all going to become scarce, grab what you can when you can.

[fredj338]

I've cast and shot lots of both, and both work well. Wheel weights are probably more consistent than random range lead, but they need to be sorted. Range lead may become easier to find than wheel weights. Its all going to become scarce, grab what you can when you can.
Exactly! I would rather smelt range lead, I know I will get no zinc there, but I will also have pretty soft alloy, on avg about 8-9bhn. Which is fine for 90% of mys shooting needs. I have enough ww alloy & lino to sweeten for the other 10% of my needs. Even water dropping range scrap gets me the bhn I want for higher vel/pressure loads.

[jwber]

No problem with my free range scrap pickups mixed 2-1 with COWW and powder coated in 9mm.

I haven't tried running straight range scrap at all...but figured the little bit of tin and antimony wouldn't hurt in the COWW.

[dtknowles]

No problem with my free range scrap pickups mixed 2-1 with COWW and powder coated in 9mm.

I haven't tried running straight range scrap at all...but figured the little bit of tin and antimony wouldn't hurt in the COWW.

ain't much tin in COWW.

Tim

[Intel6]

Thought I would reply to this thread, specifically for people wondering what the lead is in jacketed bullets. This may not be the end all answer but since I was involved and can verify everything it is as solid info as I can come up with.

I got a sample of range lead from an indoor range of a government entity and can verify with certainty that they only shoot jacketed JHP ammo there along with some shotgun slugs and OO buck but the majority is from .40 cal JHP ammo made by Federal.

Took some scrap brass and fired primers up to be recycled and asked if they could hit my sample of lead with the tester gun. They did and here is what they said:

97.+% - Lead
2.+% - Tin
less than a percent of copper

The guy was puzzled by the copper but I wasn't. When I smelted this stuff down I got a layer of what looked like dirt but it was really heavy and if figured it was basically the copper jackets that had been pulverized when they hit the steel bullet traps. I figure that some of it was so small that it was incorporated into the lead when it was smelted? Not sure of that is how it works but it seemed like a reasonable explanation. :roll: I did ask to make sure that were no frangible rounds fired at the range and was told none.


So at least in this instance, the lead used in jacketed bullets is very pure.

[jwber]

Pretty good amount of tin in there...

[dtknowles]

Thought I would reply to this thread, specifically for people wondering what the lead is in jacketed bullets. This may not be the end all answer but since I was involved and can verify everything it is as solid info as I can come up with.

I got a sample of range lead from an indoor range of a government entity and can verify with certainty that they only shoot jacketed JHP ammo there along with some shotgun slugs and OO buck but the majority is from .40 cal JHP ammo made by Federal.

Took some scrap brass and fired primers up to be recycled and asked if they could hit my sample of lead with the tester gun. They did and here is what they said:

97.+% - Lead
2.+% - Tin
less than a percent of copper

The guy was puzzled by the copper but I wasn't. When I smelted this stuff down I got a layer of what looked like dirt but it was really heavy and if figured it was basically the copper jackets that had been pulverized when they hit the steel bullet traps. I figure that some of it was so small that it was incorporated into the lead when it was smelted? Not sure of that is how it works but it seemed like a reasonable explanation. :roll: I did ask to make sure that were no frangible rounds fired at the range and was told none.


So at least in this instance, the lead used in jacketed bullets is very pure.

Thanks for the data, I appreciate you sharing it with us. That lead is not pure at all. To be dead soft pure lead it needs to be more than 99% lead. Your data is close to mine not counting the copper. 2% tin is a nice amount of tin and is what is often recommended to be added to alloy to get it to cast nice full bullets. Playing with the alloy calculator 2% tin and half a percent copper get me a BHN of 9.2. My range scrap runs from 8 to 9 BHN. Pure runs from 5 to 6 BHN.

Tim

[MBTcustom]

I've done XRF testing of both these alloys (COWW and range scrap).
the results have been surprisingly consistent.

COWW is about 2.5% SB and lead across the board. I don't even measure it anymore. a random sample from a 200lb smelt has always been the same. Very little tin in the mix. Occasionally, I find one that has higher tin content, but its never been over .5% and is the exception rather than the rule to the point that in a large smelt, it's so diluted that it is immeasurable with XRF.

Range scrap also has been very consistent at about 1% Sb and lead.

Hornady A-Max target bullets have a 100% pure lead core (for reasons that will be more obvious to some than others)

The upshot of it all is that strait coww is much too hard for 45ACP IMHO. I usually cut all my COWW 50/50 with SOWW (which have a Sb content of about .5% average) which gives me 1.5% SB 98.5%Pb across the board. Which is just about the same as range scrap.
Thus, I use 50/50 or range scrap interchangeably for everything from 45ACP to 30 caliber rifles. If I need a different alloy, I modify to suit, but that just about covers 99% of my shooting. (PS. I often spike the range scrap to get it up to the 1.5% Sb range like the 50/50 mix if I'm really pushing it. just an FYI)

[zanemoseley]

Well I've got over 2500 .45acp's cast to try in a new gun next year. After that I my jump over to 50/50 COWW with range scrap assuming I can collect enough scrap.

[tomme boy]

I have been looking into some of the new plated bullets and some are listing the lead as 13-18 bhn. I know that CCI is using Extreme plated for their aluminum cased ammo. So the rounds we have been finding in the last couple years that are completely jacketed are actually plated from Extreme. So it has to have something in it to get to 13-18bhn.