What, if anything, do I need to know about overpowder wads in revolver loads?

[C. Latch]

I have been tinkering lately with some medium-pressure loads (2400 and 800-x) in my .45 Colt.

I have noticed that when I chronograph my loads, the first shot is always 40-75' slower than subsequent shots. It occurred to me that I always cock the revolver with the muzzle pointed down, then bring it up, for my first shot, then for subsequent shots it comes down out of recoil (slowly).....the upshot of this is that, in all likelihood, I am shooting powder-forward for the first shot and powder-rearward for subsequent shots.

I doubt that the consequences of this would be noted in a hunting situation, but, being a tinkerer, I am curious: could I use an overpowder card wad (circle-fly sells a 1/8" wad in .450 and .455 sizes) to take up this airspace in my ammo, in order to get more consistent ignition and velocity?

Also, would this possibly help with the leading problem I have described elsewhere with this revolver? Wads are less than a penny each. The cost is negligible.

I realize that I might have to reduce my loads and work back up due to the presence of the wad, but with both powders in question, I am currently ~10% under max loads, and wouldn't be opposed to further reductions, if needed.

[Chihuahua Floyd]

I've never used an over powder or any type of wad in a 45 Colt or used Alliant 2400 powder. I think I would log onto the Alliant website and ask that to the experts there.
That is information I can't find in my manuals (I looked)
CF

[MGySgt]

A number of us use Dacron as a FILLER in some of our loads when using 2400 in 45/70, 45/90, etc. (bottle neck cartridges too).
The key word here is FILLER - we are filling the air space between the powder and the base of the boolit. You do not want any air space between the wad and the base of the boolit.
Yes you have to re-work your load when you use a filler.

[Jackpine]

I did some experimenting a few years back with really light 38 special loads, comparing no filler vs using instant grits as filler. I was amazed at the consistency of velocity I got with the filler. If my memory is correct, I found I could load 20% less powder and get the same average, but much more consistent velocity. I used enough grits to completely fill the space between powder and bullet, as I obviously did not want the powder and grits to mix.

I have loaded a lot of 45-70 with Dacron, but have not ever worried about totally filling the space; just holding the powder against the primer. I store and carry the rounds primer down in the box and use them only for range work, so I am not concerned about the Dacron being pushed forward. MGySgt, I am curious about your statement about totally filling the space.

Jackpine

[C. Latch]

If I loaded 20% lighter, I'd still have airspace. This may not be what I'm looking for.

[35remington]

He's saying to fill said airspace, even if it is more airspace, with filler. No airspace then. Concur with the advisability of filling the space completely when using filler. Do not leave a gap.

Jackpine, trouble has been reported with leaving airspace between wad or dacron and bullet. Thus the advice to avoid it. Look up the filler sticky. Dacron cannot be pushed anywhere if it fills the available space, so there is nothing to worry about even with rough handling.

If filler is used, many consider it more prudent to use slower powders. Lots of guys use it in rifle calibers with slower powders only. You could tip the barrel up before shooting.

[MGySgt]

Most of my rounds that I loaded using a filler were practice and hunting rounds (45/90) so I want to make sure things don't move around. I was hunting in the high country of CO on horseback.
There have been reports of issues where your initial lighting of the powder moves your wad forward and then you get secondary spike in pressure when the wade comes in contact with the base of the projectile, thus causing a rung chamber.
Many have tried to duplicate it at will but can't.

I for one am not taking a chance of a rung chamber.

Drew

[williamwaco]

Do a search. There are at least a thousand posts on this forum about how much dacron to use and how to use it.

[Harry O]

I had problems with large cases and small amounts of powder, too. Some items I have found about fillers/wads.

I have never used wads pressed against the powder, leaving a space between the wad and the base of the bullet. There are way too many reports of ringing the barrel when doing that, even with black powder. When I used wads, they are with black powder and are immediately under the bullet.

I used to use Cream-of-Wheat filler in light smokeless powder loads. It cut down on the flyers considerably. However, several years afterward, I had an occasion to take a cartridge apart and found that the filler had become a solid block. That is not great with straight cases, but could be a disaster with bottleneck cases. I quit using that.

I later went to Puff-a-Lon, a light plastic granular substance for shotgun pellets. It works and I have not seen it become a solid block so far. When I need a filler, I use that. It also stops the flyers. I have not tried Dacron.

The last way to stop this is to change to Trail Boss powder. That does a great job of filling an oversized case. I use that with more and more loads any more.

One thing to remember if using filler is to pack the case full enough with it so that when seating the bullet, you compress the filler against the powder. If you don't, the powder and filler can mix with handling. This will lead you back to flyers, and possibly hangfires. I fill the case full to the top with Puff-a-Lon and use the bullet to compress it.

[Messy bear]

Don't use a fluffy filler! You don't want recoil shaking up that combination on the other rounds in the cylinder. What do you think will happen if Dacron gets in the middle of the charge?
Keep trying powder AND primer combinations. I am confident you will get something better if you expirement a little. As I have said before on here, there is a huge difference in large pistol non mag primers. Hope this helps.

[MGySgt]

Messy Bear - I have used Dacron for more years than I care to think about. I have pulled some boolits that were loaded for years and went to the high country in CO for at least 2 or 3 years. These rounds were carried in a but stock cartridge carrier.

When the boolits were pulled the Dacron was next to the boolit and all the powder was were it was suppose to be.

When loading the Dacron was slightly compressed. I loaded an shot thousands of these rounds, at least 1000 a year for 4 or 5 years. No issues, no mixing of powder and Dacron.

Drew

[C. Latch]

Do a search. There are at least a thousand posts on this forum about how much dacron to use and how to use it.


The thing is, I don't really have any interest in Dacron.

I'm much more interested in using a 0.125" overpowder wad, as made by circle-fly or others. I don't see much about those in smokeless handgun loads.

[C. Latch]

I had problems with large cases and small amounts of powder, too. Some items I have found about fillers/wads.

I have never used wads pressed against the powder, leaving a space between the wad and the base of the bullet. There are way too many reports of ringing the barrel when doing that, even with black powder. When I used wads, they are with black powder and are immediately under the bullet.

I used to use Cream-of-Wheat filler in light smokeless powder loads. It cut down on the flyers considerably. However, several years afterward, I had an occasion to take a cartridge apart and found that the filler had become a solid block. That is not great with straight cases, but could be a disaster with bottleneck cases. I quit using that.

I later went to Puff-a-Lon, a light plastic granular substance for shotgun pellets. It works and I have not seen it become a solid block so far. When I need a filler, I use that. It also stops the flyers. I have not tried Dacron.

The last way to stop this is to change to Trail Boss powder. That does a great job of filling an oversized case. I use that with more and more loads any more.

One thing to remember if using filler is to pack the case full enough with it so that when seating the bullet, you compress the filler against the powder. If you don't, the powder and filler can mix with handling. This will lead you back to flyers, and possibly hangfires. I fill the case full to the top with Puff-a-Lon and use the bullet to compress it.


I don't have any trail boss and don't think a full case of it would give me the speed I want, but I do have some VV Tin Star. I just don't have any load data for it beyond the 14kPSI loads that data is published for. Those happen to be very accurate in my .45, but that's not what I have in mind here.

[MGySgt]

The general consensus is DON'T use wad's - use fillers. Wads in BP days was to fill the case and keep the BP compressed.

You can try your wads, but if you leave an air space you may have problems. A chance I for one, am unwilling to take with my firearms.

[C. Latch]

The general consensus is DON'T use wad's - use fillers. Wads in BP days was to fill the case and keep the BP compressed.

You can try your wads, but if you leave an air space you may have problems. A chance I for one, am unwilling to take with my firearms.


The idea that sparked this thread was the possibility of using a wad that would completely take up the airspace, leaving no space between powder and wad or powder and bullet.

However, I am reminded that I have read elsewhere that 2400 doesn't respond well to compression, so this may be a dead-end for me.

[MGySgt]

I have used lots of 2400 and Dacron in 45/70 and 308 cast loads. The Dacron usually gets me to 1 -1.5 MOA with 2400. Don't see why it would not work with straight walled pistol cases

[Messy bear]

I have used vegetable wads and fillers like cow and pufflon under bullet in 45 colt. I didn't get the results I was looking for. Decreased accuracy was one of them . Maybe I did something wrong? Just my expiriences.
I have just started to mess with 2400 w 270 gr bullets. 16.1 gr with a WLP was poor ignition.
Same charge with CCI 300 has been better. Try different combinations.

[44man]

I never seen 2400 be position sensitive, unless in a large case like the 45-70. Dacron is the best filler, needs little to no load reduction unlike a solid filler.
Puff-Lon did not give the accuracy I was after, even working loads. I only use COW or corn meal in a BP revolver with reduced loads.
The BPCR needs no wads at all if the powder reaches the boolit base with a little compression, only needed if the load is reduced. BP will form it's own wad and is why no air space must be there.
Any hard wad MUST be in contact to the boolit, no matter the powder. I will not use that stuff in a bottle neck case.
Dacron might be the safest filler ever used. It has no weight and will not form a plug. Other filler weight needs added to boolit weight. It can stretch necks in a bottle neck.
Look at too much primer too, primer pressure can push a boolit out of the case before ignition. It is why I use a standard primer in the Colt and .44 mag even with 296. Pushing out a boolit increases air space. Not something you want with 296.
Experience with any SR primer in the .454 has shown failures to light 296/H110 powder if starting loads are tried, only max loads light off.
You read all day that you need a mag primer, because the book says so. Case size dictates the primer and even a LP in the ACP is too much.
2400 does NOT need a mag primer. Neither does Unique or any other powder. I start a LP mag primer in the 45-70 , .475 and .500 revolvers. These show better accuracy.
Go full circle with a muzzle loader and a no. 10 cap will work with a full charge of BP. Now you need a shotgun primer because the pellets need fire in the holes of the pellets. If you load loose powder in the inline, why do you need a shotgun primer?

[MGySgt]

I was wondering when you would chime in 44man!

[44man]

I was wondering when you would chime in 44man!
It is hard to accept old wives tales my friend. i just don't know where some stuff comes from.
I remember when the books said the .44 NEEDS a mag primer with 2400 because the stamp on the case says "MAG." Then you Need a mag if it is cold out when at -20* the mag still shot worse even with 296.
Wads are another, you can ruin a gun FAST. Dacron has one purpose, to hold powder next to the primer, I never seen powder migration through it. yet primer fire is what you want, not primer pressure.
I live with the fed 150 in a lot of guns but some say the cup is soft so why did I exceed 55,000 psi in the .454? Why have I used them in rifles? yes I got every load to fire in the .454 with a Fed 150 but the 155 is more accurate.
You need a Fed in a revolver that will not set off a CCI, get real, the hammer spring is a curse and no primer will give accuracy. Buy springs and a slingshot is better. Back off a strain screw and wonder what those 2' patterns are from.
You need almost pure lead to "OBTURATE" The best is you need over throat size when the throat is already over groove.
My biggest gripe is hard boolits cause leading. Shoot 20 to 1 in a nine, range lead is another, what is it? A million .22';s and a million wad cutters will give you an alloy. Someone says add some tin---WOW.
I have been shooting my 30-30 with COWW's and see a difference from one batch to another. Last batch SUCKS. Yet a pile of range lead will do it! My revolvers have not been doing good with the last either.