I quit on the Marlin 1894P .44

[44man]

It has been almost 2 years since I started playing with this thing. I have tried every load and powder and all boolits from 245 to 330 gr's. I was hoping to get something reliable for the running deer and standing deer shoot at 100 yd's.
I keep reading here and the levergun forum to use over size boolits but have no idea how. Even tried real soft boolits and every other alloy I could make.
I made molds for 3 boolits, .432", 433" and .434". Also lapped 3 Lee size dies. I find the largest boolit that will chamber is .4335 and the groove to groove size is .434". Even bump up will not work to make this *** shoot.
I have one 250 gr boolit that will shoot at 50 yd's, sometimes going into 1 ragged hole but only with 7 gr's of Unique. However 5" at 100 yd's is the best it will do. Every other boolit will range from a minimum of 5" to 8" or more at 100. Once in a great while something like a group appears but can not be duplicated.
I have also done extensive work on the rifle, no tight spots in the bore, it has no barrel band, forearm floats, magazine tube floats in the reciever, etc.
Anyway, here are the best I have done at 100 along with a decent 50 yd group.

[pdawg_shooter]

Do it the easy way. Paper patch !!!!

[softpoint]

I've had that same problem with 2 .44 Marlins, although I've seen a couple that shot pretty good. I couldn't get those two to shoot jacketed worth a hoot either.

[w30wcf]

44man,
Sorry to hear of your frustrating experiences with your .44 Marlin 1894P .
A friend of mine had trouble getting his .44 Marlin to shoot cast bullets.
He was using the Keith style bullet and groups were in the 3" range @ 50 yards.

He did not check his barrel dimensions, but I suggested he try using a .06" thick LDPE (Low Density Polyethylene) wad under the bullet.

Viola! Groups shrank to the 1" range. Could have been that the bullet was smaller than the barrel dimension and the poly wad sealed things up.

w30wcf

[Junior1942]

44man, PM me your snailmail address and I'll send you some freebie 1/2" x 1/8" felt wads. You have to force 'em in a 44 case, but they'll go.

[DrJay1st]

Question: Does this caliber in this gun have a reputation for accuracy? I don't own a lever gun and would like to have one or several:) I'm lurking on this site and drifting toward casting...therefore, I'm interested in which guns are cast friendly and which are not. Is the Marlin 44 so finicky that everything must be perfect on the gun or they won't shoot cast? I'm beginning to suspect that these guns are inherently inaccurate. How about a survey...everyone that has experience with this gun share your experience...We would need the negative experiences as well as the positive to get a true picture. I wonder what the numbers really are?
There's a lot of information for a newbie to sort through...which guns, what kind of rifling, what twist, what bullet style, what mold, what alloy, what hardness, gas check or not? On and On! So, your thoughts and others on your gun/caliber are valuable information.
Jerry

[44man]

This is the only caliber I have had trouble with. We shoot my friends micro groove 30-30 at 200 yd's and had some cast loads around 1". His 45-70 is sweet. My old .35 Rem would hold 1/2" at 100 with jacketed.
The big problem is the reduction of lands and grooves without making them deeper combined with a 1 in 38 twist that can't stabilize anything past 50 yd's. Bore is oversize and grooves are only .003" deep.
JR, I have wads and will try them. But there are too many other problems for them to correct.
I am writing Marlin again to see what it would cost to have the .444 barrel twist rate put on it, along with more complaints.

[bobk]

44Man,
I have often wondered if I could size a bullet base-first, making a mini heel bullet. This would obviously be a wipe on or tumble lube setup, with a homemade die (.38 Special sizers abound at gun shows, and cut well on the lathe). I have a .44-40, and while I have never slugged the barrel, I suspect it is large, so that the boolit can squeeze past the fouling. Trouble is, without the blackpowder bump-up, the boolit doesn't fit well . So, fit the front band to the ball seat, and the body to the case so that it is small enough to chamber reliably. Elmer Keith probably did this a hundred years ago.
Bob K

[Denver]

44 Man,

Your results sound identical to mine when I had the same rifle as yours. I fixed mine by trading it off. Never found a CB load that would shoot worth a damn that was over about 1000 fps and then accuracy wasn't anything to brag about. :mad:

Very frustrating.

[Cloudpeak]

I had one of these rifles many years ago. What a well made, good looking gun. I went through many loads with cast and jacketed bullets and could not get that rifle to group. The groups pictured in this thread were better than I could come up with. I could shoot better groups with my Ruger Blackawk 44 magnum so traded the rifle. It was such a let down because this was such a good looking, handy rifle.

Cloudpeak

[Leftoverdj]

I see no mention of GCs. I'll agree with you if you are just talking about PB bullets. Mine won't shoot PB worth a whoop much past 1000 fps, neither. Lyman 429244 does very well cast of linotype, GCed and driven hard. Water quenched ww shoot acceptably, but not as well, probably because of the slight diameter difference.

I believe that a GC can make up for a very slightly undersized bullet. With your barrel as big as it is, that's your only hope.

Forget the running shots, though. After three consecutive inexplicable misses, I came home and did the math. Even a top load is going to take a fifth of a second to travel 100 yards. Assuming a broadside shot on a deer at a full run, that's about NINE FEET of lead and no telling how much up and down for the bounces. Even at 50 yards, you can hold under the chin and still completely miss behind the deer.

[dubber123]

I have never really tried cast in mine other than to chronograph some, as it won't feed a WFN profile and thats what I wanted to shoot. HOWEVER, with 240 XTP's, or now 270 gr. Speer Gold Dots, this gun will happily put 5 rounds in 3/4" or less at 50 yards. Mine shoots like I have come to expect of Marlins, and that is excellent. I have one question, have you tried a different scope? I have fixed many a friends rifle that "just wouldn't shoot", by ditching whatever *** scope they had on it. Just a thought.

[Lloyd Smale]

ill give you 250 bucks for that ***!!!

[dubber123]

ill give you 250 bucks for that ***!!!

I'll go 275$, Lloyd. (shipped of course).[smilie=1:

[dubber123]

Another thought, have it re-crowned. I read an article recently, whre they took a brand new bolt gun, a Remington I think, and shot a series of groups as delivered, re-crowned it, and shot more. groups were about 1/4 as large after the muzzle was straightened out.

[Lloyd Smale]

my p isnt a tack driver but it does 3 inch at a 100 with 240 rcbs swcgc and 19 grains of 820 it is the only load that did that well in it though. It doesnt seem to like heavys.

[Lloyd Smale]

by the way dubber the price is now up to 300 shipped ;)

[EDK]

Have you tried the RANCH DOG 432 265 mould? I got one a few weeks ago, but weather and other things have kept me from doing much with it. All the reports were good enough that I initially "subscribed to a 6 cavity" and then decided to get the 2 cavity that was in stock and get busy NOW.

IIRC the conventional wisdom is that you have to play with bearing length, alloy and velocity. "A fast, hard cast gas check design." BUT you seldom get specific data. Is that a discreet way of saying "I haven't found the answer either."

I've had the 1894 44 magnum MARLIN in either the 20 inch round barrel or 24 inch octagon since 1973. I never expected much of them in accuracy, but they work well for a saddle gun/short range woods gun/Cowboy Action Shooting. It shoots minute of coyote/feral dog that was chasing my herford calves; feeds pretty good with almost anything I shoot in my 44 pistols.

For now, its 429667 or 431244 or the Ranch Dog.

:cbpour: :Fire: :redneck:

[BABore]

I doubt Marlin will budge on a barrel. They charge about $115 to rebarrel a levergun. They unscrew your *** bbl, and screw on a new one right off of the production line. No custom shop capability. They won't sub in a 1 in 18 or 20 twist (444) bbl for your 44 mag.

But, giving up already! After just two years! I thought old men were supposed to have patients.:-D[smilie=1:

Your options are;

1. Sell it off to Lloyd.

2. Use it for jacketed only.

3. Open up the chamber a couple thou. so you can shoot the proper sized bullet.

4. New Marlin installed bbl for $115 which consists of another roll of the dice.

5. New custom bbl. About $450 complete.

[dubber123]

by the way dubber the price is now up to 300 shipped ;)

Allright moneybags, you got me!:drinks:

[beagle]

I went the same route with the Marlins and finally gave up in disgust and it went on a one way trip to the gun show.

I bought a new Winchester Legacy and have been a very happy camper.

Now, I know there's guys that say they get MG Marlins to shoot .44 Mag cast but I'm not one of them./beagle

[Bass Ackward]

From an educational standpoint, this kind of thing makes for interesting reading cause we generally only hear the good stories. Or the stories that turn out well.

Sometimes it's nice to let folks know that regardless of their experience level, there may just be a situation that won't work out no matter what you try.

[Old Ironsights]

I just took out a friend's M94 (dunno whether it is a P or what).

Shot some beauty ragged holes offhand with it... until I got the Dreaded Marlin Jam.

Absolutely locked up. Nothing moves. Now I have to figure out how to take the fool thing apart.

(edit - this is not a double-feed jam, this is one shell wedged into the carrier or somthing...)

Another reason I prefer the Win 1892 clones...

[44man]

You guys are tempting me big time.
Most of my boolits have been gas checked--- no difference. Like I said, it shoots most anything great up to 50 yd's but after that is when it just loses everything. I still say the boolits can't be spun fast enough to last past 50.

[willy]

Sell it and get a Rossi 92 .
I got the Rossi in 45colt with 20" oct. barrel with a peep sight that I shoot 255 gr. SWC bullets with 22 gr. of 2400 into a inch at 50 yards and under 3 inchs at 100 easy.
Also got a Rossi 92 in 44mag. with 20" round barrel that shoots just as good.



Willy

[Shuz]

44 Man,

Your results sound identical to mine when I had the same rifle as yours. I fixed mine by trading it off. Never found a CB load that would shoot worth a damn that was over about 1000 fps and then accuracy wasn't anything to brag about. :mad:

Very frustrating.

I had the same experience with my Marlin 44 carbine. I sold it and bought a Winchester Trapper. I'm a happy camper now!--Shuz

[longbow]

44man:

Since you seem to have tried most everything, I have one other suggestion if you haven't checked already - run an oversize ball or slug through the bore to check for tight spots.

I was having trouble getting my .44 mag Marlin 1894 to shoot well and not lead badly - even just one of those would have been good. Tried several things with only moderate success then read on the Marlinowners site that many (most?) Marlins have tight spots in the barrel under the dovetails!

I drilled a hole through a .440" ball and fit it to the end of a ramrod then pushed it through the barrel - sure enough, tight spots!

I hand lapped the tight spots out very carefully so as not to lap out the microgroove rifling. So far leading is no more and accuracy seems to have improved dramatically - at least from the buckshot patterns I was getting. I will have to do some serious shooting off the bench to be sure but I do believe this has fixed or at least improved the situation.

Longbow

[35remington]

Check the throat. I'm betting you don't have one, which is problem #1 I look for when cast of the proper diameter won't shoot.

If you have a throat that some of these leverguns are burdened with, nothing you do will improve things. Period.

Check it out, and decide if jacketed accuracy versus cast is sufficient for you to want to put in a proper throat which is not overlong for the gun, and does not compromise jacketed accuracy. Check OAL to see if the Marlin will cycle somewhat longer rounds first if the longer throat is the way you want to go.

[felix]

That's true. Most (winning) BR boolit guns have a small amount, say 100 freebore, before a 1.5-2.0 degree inclusive leade in. The freebore is what enhances centering, where the boolit is seldom seated long enough to mark the boolit unless required for the load that day. Now, that's an ideal throat. However, my Marlin in 41 mag has a cave for a throat which is 200 long before the lands strike the boolit (solid copper wadcutter). I have no idea what the the leade is. The same for my Ruger 44 lever gun, but I have no idea what the total throat is in that thing. Reason is that gun requires a nose not to exceed 300 to cycle, so there is no reason to know the internals. Both shoot very good now, after shooting antimony excessive boolits for a year's worth, say 1000 rounds for each gun. Now, I have a 22-250 Remmie VS that has zero freebore and fairly abrupt lands. I shot that thing for about 750 rounds with 60K cup condom loads. It now shoots boolits with great authority at 2400. So, to make these factory guns shoot, you have two choices (assuming the twist is OK). Mechanically fix them up front, or shoot the hell out of them. I prefer the latter. If the gun won't shoot after 1K rounds, then consider a mechanical fix or gunshow it. By the way, the older Rossi cowboy guns have 30 twist. The latest Winnie guns have 26 twist. Both work good for nominal length boolits. ... felix

[Pavomesa]

I had one and got similar poor results. Finally solved the problem by jacking the rifle up and putting a different mfg's rifle under it in different caliber.

[TxGunfighter]

My Suggestion is to send the gun back to Marlin with your complaints... Marlin will work with you. You might even get them to install a barrel with ballard rifling... Marlin has always treated me well in the past.

[dubber123]

Dang, I'm the only one who got a good one!

[Lloyd Smale]

I like mine too Dubber. Id actually like to have another one. 44man. dave clements is doing a custom 4570 for me right now and one of the things hes doing is changing the throat of the barrel in a way that is suppose to improve cast bullet shooting. I dont know exactly what he does as i never really checked into it because ive not had a problem with cast out of a marlin other then my 44p which like i said is finiky but does shoot some loads real well but maybe he has a cheap fix for you to try. He also is changing the way the mag tube is hung and glass bedding the but stock which he claims helps accuracy too. I know you probably dont want to sink more money into that gun but id look at it this way. there about as cute and handy of a 44 mag carbine as youll find and if 200 bucks thrown at it would make it become a gun your proud of instead of one you detest it would be money well spent. Ive also read paco kellys articles on accurarizing a lever and you may want to look them over. I think were all pissing in the wind if were looking for a 44 mag marlin to shoot moa but id certainly expect it to be a minute of whitetail gun at a 100 yards!! By the way my offer to buy it is legitimate. I really like mine and would be willing to buy it and continue your quest for accuracy with it.
Dang, I'm the only one who got a good one!

[WKAYE]

Dang, I'm the only one who got a good one!

No you're not. Mine was bought new about 5 years ago and shots very well with Saeco 431. Alloy is WW with 2% tin Babbitt and 2% Mag shot. Air cooled Bhn is 14.5 . A .432 sizer just touches the part lines. They average just over 2" @ 100 yards. The groove diameter is .431 and like 44man's, the lands are not very tall. I had to firelap it as the rollstamp created a tight spot underneath. It also shots various PB plinker loads with Unique. Luck of the draw with groove diameters , I guess. :(

[Lead melter]

44Man,
Being no expert on the topic, I cannot speak conclusively about what the problem is. I can, however, add a few suggestions to the thread.
1. My own 1894-P likes to have the forearm rested on the bag in the manner that the contact point is just ahead of the action.
2. Give the RD 432-265-RN/FP a try. I have shot them at both .430" and .432". My own rifle will not show a marked preference for either size, but will have a totally different impact point with the difference in boolit size.
3. Try the Hornady 300 grain flat point j-bullet over 20 grains of L'il Gun. The 300 grainer is made for a 444 Marlin, but works great in my shorty.
4. For any high speed loads, jacketed or cast, get rid of 296, or H110 and try the L'il Gun. I have been amazed at the difference this powder makes in just about any 44. My 1894, my Ruger BH, and three others that belong to a buddy, have all come around well with this powder. If you go the RD mold route, try 18-19 grains.
5. On a previous post I had trouble with a 240 grain SWC boolit at 100 yards. The 50 yard performance was great, but 100 yards left the group at about 6" left of the target. Sighted dead on at 50, but way left at 100? Never could figure it out, till I remembered the load was 10 grains Unique at about 1350 fps. This should be fine in this gun, but it sure wasn't fine enough for me. In short, try a heavier boolit, with L'il Gun powder and I would not be surprised if your rifle will start to behave a little better.

[Bass Ackward]

I think were all pissing in the wind if were looking for a 44 mag marlin to shoot moa but id certainly expect it to be a minute of whitetail gun at a 100 yards.


I'm sorta spoiled. Mine has never failed to shoot any design I have put through it up to 280 grains and that had to be a Keith type. Out to 50 yards, it'll handle anything. It's scoped to 9X and if she shot a 2" group at 100, trust me, I would be back to the reloading bench or servicing the gun to correct the problem. So it's piece of mind.

[44man]

lead melter, I am going to buy the RD mold next to try. I re slugged the bore and it is smooth with no tight spots. I also have some Lil'Gun. I will try what you say.
Big problem I have is the gun belongs to my grandson and he loves it. He lives with us so I use it when I want to. I don't dare sell it out from under him. I just mentioned it and he came apart.
I guess I better not give up yet.

[44man]

RD mold is on the way.
A question about it. Will it work OK with Felix lube?
I have a lapped out .432 size die and plenty of Lee LA if needed. I just never liked the stuff.

[felix]

felix lube should work fine unless the boolit grooves are sized too much to hold anything. If you have to, just make a special batch with a little more lanolin. That would mean two sizers, eh? ... felix

[44man]

Thanks Felix. I do have .432, .433 and .4335 sizers.

[dubber123]

RD mold is on the way.
A question about it. Will it work OK with Felix lube?
I have a lapped out .432 size die and plenty of Lee LA if needed. I just never liked the stuff.

I have been shooting RD's 425 gr 45-70 boolit with my version if Felix lube, and it seems to be doing fine. Like was stated, the lube grooves aren't very deep, so minimal sizing would be best for lube capacity.

[OBXPilgrim]

Assuming a broadside shot on a deer at a full run, that's about NINE FEET of lead and no telling how much up and down for the bounces. Even at 50 yards, you can hold under the chin and still completely miss behind the deer.


shoots minute of coyote/feral dog that was chasing my herford calves;

I'm taking it for granted that you aim at the calves!! Right?

[Old Ironsights]

...Forget the running shots, though. After three consecutive inexplicable misses, I came home and did the math. Even a top load is going to take a fifth of a second to travel 100 yards. Assuming a broadside shot on a deer at a full run, that's about NINE FEET of lead and no telling how much up and down for the bounces. Even at 50 yards, you can hold under the chin and still completely miss behind the deer.

That's about right.

I took my 8pt at aprox 110yds on the full bound with about a 1/2 body-length lead, on the up-bounce.

Blew the shoulder to hamburger... with a GB C358-180RF.

Just like leading a shotgun. :mrgreen:

[HORNET]

You could turn the case necks a little to let you seat .434 or .435 dia. Just a few to see if it might be worth opening up the chamber. Could also check the throating, see Finn45's sticky on lapping throats to a different shape. Might want to check out that Ranch Dog mold first.

[spurgon]

44man

What about sending it back to marlin for a fix?
spurgon

[lovedogs]

44... too bad you're having so much trouble. I'm not expert enough to offer much advice. As you've probably seen previously, I had trouble at first with my 1894 Cowboy .44. When new it had a rusty bbl. and a cracked stock. Marlin re-stocked and re-barrelled it but the bbl. is way oversized at .4315 dia. Of course, the Cowboy is a Ballard bbl. so we're talking apples vs. oranges there. I had poor accuracy and low vels. with 2400 and a 250 RNFPGC Saeco bullet. When I pushed it harder using H110 vels. were great at 1840 FPS, no leading and fabulous accuracy, about MOA at ranges to 250 yds. I'm now very happy with it.

A friend has an older Marlin with MG bbl. He loaned it to me just to play with and compare to mine. I shot my cast loads and some Speer 240 gr. jacketed that also shot well in mine. The only difference was that mine got better vels. His MG shot just as well as my Ballard. I still like mine better because I like the balance and longer sight radius but found his to be a good rifle, also. Couldn't find any fault in it. I would suggest calling Marlin and talking with a tech. That's what I did. He had me address it to his attention and he handled it personally so it was done right (except for the typical oversized bbl.). I think with all the tricks you've tried that more tricks won't fix it. A bum bbl. is still a bum bbl. You're stuck with having Marlin remedy it or going custom. Just my 2 cents. Hope it works out for you. Don't believe those who think a .44 can't be VERY accurate. A good bbl. will shoot very well. I have a Contender Super 14 in. .44 with a good bbl. and chamber that'll shoot into a pie plate at 500 yds. Any gun, set up right, will shoot well. Good luck!

[405]

Quote:
"It has been almost 2 years since I started playing with this thing. I have tried every load and powder and all boolits from 245 to 330 gr's. I was hoping to get something reliable for the running deer and standing deer shoot at 100 yd's."


They are what they are :-? If I had to "force" any of my 38-40s or 44-40s to shoot to 100-200 yards I'd probably be trying the same things. They are superb 50 yard guns but to push them to Hollywood sniper Win 73 range may not be in the cards and may not be the fault of the gun or the ammo. Hate to say it but the Jboolit might get there????

[leftiye]

Not to be simplistic, but way back there someone mentioned oversized groove diameter, twist rate from h@!!, undersized chamber for correctly sized boolits, too shallow rifling, and shooting what amounts to undersized boolits. What more could possibly be needed to destroy, or make impossible accuracy? What short of a good barrel could fix it?

[44 flattop]

Hello,
I think this may be my first post here! I have 3 or 4 [smilie=1: different 44 Marlins and I've never had ANY problems shooting with cast. I guess what I may be doing different here since I cast everything .430, is I cast a bit softer than most. By doing that my bullets 'bump up' to fit the bore better than the overly hardened bullets. Using 75% WW's and 25% pure lead with no quenching, I have no leading up to 2,000fps (high as I've ever went with a 225gr) and what *I* consider pretty darned good accuracy for what I use the .44 for (deer, elk, bear and small game) which is usually a bit under 2" at 100 yards. None of them will ever make sniper rifles, but are darned good hunting rigs.

So far I"ve used about 10-12 different moulds all with the same results accuracy wise. I've used lots of different lubes and have a couple cases of Tamarack since I've pretty well settled on it. M&N for high velocity rifle but the Tamarack works best for me with velocities under 2,000fps.

25 years ago I bought some 2,000 240gr JSP's for my 44's. I bet I still have over 1800 of them left. Long live the cast bullet!

44 :castmine:

[44man]

Lovedogs, I do get very good accuracy at 50 yd's and have thought about stepping it up more to spin the boolit faster. When I get the Ranch Dog mold I will try higher velocities. I am also going to speed up that little spitzer boolit I have. It has poked one ragged hole for 5 shots at 50 yd's with 7 gr's of Unique. I have only used it for plinking because it is a terrible deer boolit. It is a cheap way for the grandson to shoot too, not much powder!
Leftiye, I really don't see any difference in 50 yd accuracy from .431" to .433" boolit diameters. They all shoot fine. Groups spread bad at range because I am convinced they designed the thing around the cowboy shooters and the short ranges. I could make it shoot long range if the twist was right. Maybe more speed, more spin, more stability. We shall see.

[Bass Ackward]

Lovedogs, I do get very good accuracy at 50 yd's and have thought about stepping it up more to spin the boolit faster.



Jim,

Well that is a stabilization issue. I thought we were talking accuracy problems in general. Since this is a grandson anyway, why not try a lighter bullet? You sure don't need a heavier weight with your deer down there.

If you want to try some, let me know. Then you can have a mold made for what you need.

[44man]

I have a 245 and the spitzer weighs 250.
I just would love to use it at 100 for the running deer. It doesn't move too fast but covers a short distance and I need to get 4 shots at it. There are several trees in front of it so shooting has to be planned.
The only other rifle I have is the Swede and it is hard as the devil to operate fast because sometimes the empty will not clear the action and I will pick up another round winding up dumping both on the ground.
I would love to find a used 30-30 just for the shoot but prices I have seen are beyond what I can spend.
I have already sold off my other rifles and some handguns to buy my BFR revolvers.
It is a case of "make do" or borrow a gun.

[runfiverun]

44 man
you may need to try short light and fast
something i've heard somewhere
havn't had this problem in a 92 yet. just dies that dont size to my bbl

runfiverun

[lovedogs]

44man... yes, you may find accuracy when you push 'em hard enough. I remember when I started loading for mine. I tried using 2400. I got pressures before I got speed. Accuracy wasn't near as good at 1400 FPS as it got to be when I hit 1800 FPS. Now, at 1840 FPS, I get MOA accuracy out to as far as I can see to shoot, which is 250 yds. using an old Weaver 3X scope mounted for test purposes. Drop and wind drift is a lot at that range but accuracy is surprising once you get it right. If you don't get accuracy once you are pushing them and getting good obturation I'd suggest a call to Marlin like I mentioned earlier.

[44man]

Sounds good to me. Thanks.