awful performance of 303 british cast and powder coated

[Stearns]

Hi im new here. I have spent lots of time reading and educating myself. I have been reloading for a year now and just started casting. I actually only shot one cast bullet that was tumble lubed then heard about pc. I then washed the lube off all my bullets and started powder coating. That one i shot was 17 grains of 2400 not gas checked and shot good out of my enfield rifle.
It was unsized. As casted in my lee 185 gr rn mold . My bore sluged at .302 and.313. My bullets come cast at about .314.
My first run of pc in my enfield were bad as far as accuracy. I did 37 grains of 3031. lots of smoke that i dont get with jacketed. Jacketed that rifle does a 1/2 inch group at 50 yards same load data.
The powder coated at above data shoots about 4" from what im aiming at.
I have read some say that the mold i have isnt very good. Shoukd i try a gas check? Im trying to keep cost down.
Anyone shooting powdercoated bullets in an enfield ?
Any tips?

[Artful]

That's not far off from Ball load - I would say yes to gas check - and I would say maybe a slower powder like 4895 and work up not just jump up towards the top.

[supersniper]

Alloy may be too soft - how were they cast? air cooled or water-dropped? How long from being cast were they fired?

[Stearns]

Lead is wheel weights with no stick on. Water dropped. They have been cast for about a week.

[DougStump]

I also had very poor performance out of this bullet until I started using RCBS gas checks, not my Lee Enfields are tack drivers. Try 10.0 grains of Unique under the 185 cast sized to .314". Of course, you'll have to jack the sights up a mite! I've used this load out to 400 yards (two decades ago when I could see that far).

[GhostHawk]

Yes to Gas Check, lube can also make a big difference. And I am not yet sold on PC coatings for high velocity rifle boolits.

In my old school conservative opinion, if they really were all that much better then all the big name guys would be doing it.

For pistol, sure, PC is I'm sure great and stops a lot of leading problems. But Pistols run shorter distances, lower speeds/pressures, and tend toward bigger bores.

I personally predict if PC is going to well in Rifles it will happen first in the bigger bores. .44, .45, .444, .45-70 etc.

By the time you get down to .30 caliber the tolerances for variance are pretty fine. Any imperfection can simply cause too much variation leaving large groups.

I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time, and I'm not betting the farm on it.
But that is my gut hunch.

If the tumble lube worked go back to it.

Read up on the various methods to get your mold to cast a touch bigger.
I'm using 3 small strips of tape in my Lee .312 185 gr 2r mold and it made a big difference. From .311-.3135 or .314. Gas checks crimped on in a Lee .314 sizer die has them coming out consistently around .3135 which is fine for my Mosin's with .312 bores.

You might try mixing up a small batch of something like Ben's Red lube, or try the Carnuba Red for LsStuff a sponser here. Both in my experience have worked well with that boolit.

Be methodical. Change one thing at a time. Keep track of what works, what doesn't, and what doesn't seem to effect things.
Keep moving in the right direction. You'll get there!

[Yodogsandman]

Welcome to the site! More granite staters every day!

Without using gas checks, you're going to find that velocities should be kept under about 1400-1500 ft/sec. DougStump's load above seem's like a good one to try. Your original load of 17gr 2400 was close, maybe try 16.0gr.

You don't say if you sized after PC'ing or if you coated the bases. Coating the base doesn't really matter, much. You should resize after PC'ing, though. You still need to restrict your velocities without using a gas check. I found that I couldn't shoot as accurately with PC as with lubed boolits. Tumble lubing is fine.

[popper]

Probably 16 gr of 2400 & Dacron filler without the checks. Probably 0.316 after PC, should size. 3031 load needs the GCs.

[Stearns]

I will work with some of the sugestions. Thanks again for the help. ......It was a granite stater at the club that told me about the forum and convinsed me to cast.
Ill wotk on this and post my results

[docone31]

Paper patch. The SMLE is made for it. Size to .314.

[Stearns]

I got one shot off and had another case head seperate. Im done with s&b brass. Case is stuck. I have a broken case extractor but it didnt work. I read somewhere on here to fill the case with lead than tap out. I tried it and no go! Now i have to take the damn rifle apart so i can Melt the lead out.

[1johnlb]

I have no problems with S&b brass. You may have other issues, headspace is the first concern I would have or maybe overworked brass. You have to be careful not to put to much lead in the chamber ,if you overfill it into the lug area it's gonna be a pita. Is you Enfield All matching numbers or is it mismatched?

[Stearns]

Its a sporter non maching but jacketed bullets its a tack driver.

[1johnlb]

Are you full length sizing or just neck sizing?
No.1 mk3 or no4 mk 1-2?
Does your rifle " kick like a mule"?
How often are your cases splitting?

If your F.L. sizing you may just be over working the brass. F.L. sizing and the typically large chambers for L. Enfields greatly reduce the case life of your brass, and at the high pressures your shooting, cases don't last long at all. Neck sizing only will allow your cases to fill out to the chamber and only works the neck, also typically increases accuracy, but increases drag on extraction.

If your rifle is splitting new ammo [cases] and "kicks like a mule", this is a good sign that your head space is out. It's typical of pieced together L.E.'s that wasn't done by a smith and high round count L.E.'s. In either case, it's fixable just a no1 might get a little pricey.


37 grains of 3031

My opinion, to much of a to fast of powder. I read it here, " Forget all you know about jax when you start shoot'n boolits", and it's the closes thing to a true statment as I have read yet. If you haven't already once you get the lead out the chamber, be sure to get all the copper fouling out your bore. Your accuracy will suffer until you do.


17 grains of 2400

My No1 mk3 and No4 mk 2 both prefered 15.5 gr of 2400 w/gas check.

I don't PC but from reading here PC doesn't help accuracy in rifles but they suffer from inconsistancy causing out of balance, thus larger groups. Consistency has shown to be key for me when making my own ammo, it starts with conponents, now with casting adds another factor in, that I must be consistent with. Another true statement is " before you can run you got to learn how to crowl". If you don't learn how to crowl or walk you miss out on the exsperience that is essential to running. I hope this helped.

[Stearns]

Are you full length sizing or just neck sizing?
No.1 mk3 or no4 mk 1-2?
Does your rifle " kick like a mule"?
How often are your cases splitting?

If your F.L. sizing you may just be over working the brass. F.L. sizing and the typically large chambers for L. Enfields greatly reduce the case life of your brass, and at the high pressures your shooting, cases don't last long at all. Neck sizing only will allow your cases to fill out to the chamber and only works the neck, also typically increases accuracy, but increases drag on extraction.

If your rifle is splitting new ammo [cases] and "kicks like a mule", this is a good sign that your head space is out. It's typical of pieced together L.E.'s that wasn't done by a smith and high round count L.E.'s. In either case, it's fixable just a no1 might get a little pricey.



My opinion, to much of a to fast of powder. I read it here, " Forget all you know about jax when you start shoot'n boolits", and it's the closes thing to a true statment as I have read yet. If you haven't already once you get the lead out the chamber, be sure to get all the copper fouling out your bore. Your accuracy will suffer until you do.



My No1 mk3 and No4 mk 2 both prefered 15.5 gr of 2400 w/gas check.

I don't PC but from reading here PC doesn't help accuracy in rifles but they suffer from inconsistancy causing out of balance, thus larger groups. Consistency has shown to be key for me when making my own ammo, it starts with conponents, now with casting adds another factor in, that I must be consistent with. Another true statement is " before you can run you got to learn how to crowl". If you don't learn how to crowl or walk you miss out on the exsperience that is essential to running. I hope this helped.

Thanks for the reply. It doesnt kick bad. All the s&b brass is my origional rounds since i got the gun last year. At first i was fl sizing but just started neck only. I think the brass is at its limit. I got the lead out and now im back to just stuck case.

[HollowPoint]

I had an enfield that would do the same thing. Those store bought broken case extractors were useless in my gun; and all of the helpful suggestions I tried failed to remove the broken cases. At one point I had to use a metal pick to get the broken shell out of the chamber. This was a big mistake. I ended up putting small gouges in the floor of the chamber. Those small gouges would emboss the surfaces of all the brass I fired thereafter.

I ended up welding an old tapping-die onto the end of a short piece of 1/4" metal rod. Whenever I got a broken case stuck in the chamber, all I had to do was lightly stick the tapping-die end of that rod into the broken brass case, twist just enough for the teeth to grip the wall of the brass and it came right out.

There was never any danger of further damage to the chamber because it's not like I was threading the broken case. The tapping-die just gave me a superior grip on the inside walls of the brass than the store-bought shell extractors did.

I eventually re-chambered and re-barreled my enfield and I haven't had a problem since. I still carry that home made extractor in my range back whenever I take the old girl out to the shooting range. There's been a couple of times I've loaned it out to other enfield shooters who's guns wouldn't give up those broken cases.

HollowPoint

[firefly1957]

I am new to the 303 and have also had S&B cases separate they were bought new and sized in a new sat of Lee dies load was mild removing it was done with a 45 caliber brass (bronze) bore brush pushed in then pulled out.
My gun also leaded badly with first attempt i found the paint did not cure all the way while baking leading was so back i ended up using mercury to clean the bore.

[LAGS]

I have used Cerosafe to remove stuck Broken cases.
You are just doing it like a chamber casting,with a Jacket.
Just make sure you cast the cerosafe into the free bore and Don't Over Rag the stop.
I use a 1/4" Aliminum rod with one patch over the end of the rod for a casting stop, and I leave the rod with the patch on the end in the bore when you cast.
The Patch is basiclly a Gasket for the rod, and not a Rag Plug.

[Stearns]

I have used Cerosafe to remove stuck Broken cases.
You are just doing it like a chamber casting,with a Jacket.
Just make sure you cast the cerosafe into the free bore and Don't Over Rag the stop.
I use a 1/4" Aliminum rod with one patch over the end of the rod for a casting stop, and I leave the rod with the patch on the end in the bore when you cast.
The Patch is basiclly a Gasket for the rod, and not a Rag Plug.

What is cerosafe?

[RP]

Cerosafe is a low temp alloy that you can do a chamber cast without harming your firearm. There was a fellow selling some about a month ago can not place his name now but if someone remembers maybe you can contact him to see if he has any left.

[PAT303]

Mate you have more than one problem.First,have you fire formed your cases?,do you neck size or FL?,what is the dia of the boolits noses?,what is the throat dia of your rifle?,do the boolits drop easily into the neck of a fired case?.Lets start from the beginning,my S&B cases have fired dozens of times without issue,it's not the cases fault. Pat

[Stearns]

Mate you have more than one problem.First,have you fire formed your cases?,do you neck size or FL?,what is the dia of the boolits noses?,what is the throat dia of your rifle?,do the boolits drop easily into the neck of a fired case?.Lets start from the beginning,my S&B cases have fired dozens of times without issue,it's not the cases fault. Pat

I buy new boxes of ammo. Shoot then reload. When reloading i was fl sizing but have changed to neck sizing. My bore sluged at .312 / .302 i do not know the throat diameter. Not sure how to get that. I have reloaded these cases a few times. Not sure how many. I think that is my problem. Just statted having seperatiin problems after probably 3-5 reloads.
my bulleta were casting at .314-.315 with pwder coat. I have now found some measuring as large as .317. I think the one that was shot that the case got stuck may have been one close to the .317. I wasnt measuring everyone.
Another thing i did not mentikn before because i didnt thing it was relavent is right after this shot i could not get the bolt all the way open. I beloeve my friend may have forced the bolt closed with a bullet to large to chamber. I had to use a rubber maller to get the bolt to slide open. I then had to use a bench grinder ans lightley grind the side of the bolt to get it to go in and out easily.

Could an oversized bullet forxed to chamber cause the bolt to bend in some way when it was fired?

[1johnlb]

DWas the bolt head screwed all the way down on the bolt before it was installed? If there's a gap between the bolt and bolt head it's not on all the way.

Oversized bullets can cause over pressure. If your already shooting max loads this could very well be a problem and you are risking life and limb. This can also be the very reason your splitting cases. Please stop and find you a qualified gun Smith.

[Stearns]

DWas the bolt head screwed all the way down on the bolt before it was installed? If there's a gap between the bolt and bolt head it's not on all the way.

Oversized bullets can cause over pressure. If your already shooting max loads this could very well be a problem and you are risking life and limb. This can also be the very reason your splitting cases. Please stop and find you a qualified gun Smith.

Bolt head was screwed on tight. No gap. Gun has performed flawlessly until just recent. Was shooting jacketed bullets at 38 grains of 3031. Not even close to max load. I then started casting and have shot 4 cast bullets from it. First one was as cast and tumble lubed. 16 grains of 2400. Shot great. Then heard about powder coat. First 3 powdercoated i shot at jacketed loads. Someone told me you could shoot powdercoated cast like jacketed. I have since gone back to the 2400 loads. Which is one that the case got stuck...none of the otger cadt bullets was a problem chambering. I read on hear if it chambers its ok to shoot. My buddy forced the bolt closed when he shot the one that got stuck. I then started measuring the cast diameters of all the casted bullets and found some were larger and would be a problem chambering. All the ones measur3d before and that i tested had no problem chambering. Before this one shot action worked as it should and only got head seperation on the last loadof the s&b brass that probably were reloaded one to many times.

[Stearns]

Still have not got tge case out. Once i get it out i will investigate the problem with the action.

[1johnlb]

Would you please post pictures of the split cases and the primers. Also of the bolt, the area you grinded. Then maybe someone could help you better.

[1johnlb]

The Hogdon site shows 38.3 grs of 3031 to be a max load for a 180 jacketed bullet. Your original post states you were shooting lee's 185 gr., this load is unsafe with a oversized bullet or even the correct sized boolit. Your 2400 load is safe. Is it possible that you may have double charged the case or done the damage before changing powder?

[Stearns]

119313119314119315119316119317
Here are some photos. You can barely tell where i used the grinder. Its the sides of bolt that are showing on the rounded part.
the photo with the bolt entering the action is showing where it starts to bind up. Hard to slide on. Its like that with or with out the bolt head on the bolt. And its hard to slide all the way till its closed. Every other head seperation i hqve had has been during reloading the case not in the gun when it was shot. Basically when i would resize decap when i was pulling the case out of the die it would seperate.

Would you please post pictures of the split cases and the primers. Also of the bolt, the area you grinded. Then maybe someone could help you better.

[Stearns]

The Hogdon site shows 38.3 grs of 3031 to be a max load for a 180 jacketed bullet. Your original post states you were shooting lee's 185 gr., this load is unsafe with a oversized bullet or even the correct sized boolit. Your 2400 load is safe. Is it possible that you may have double charged the case or done the damage before changing powder?

When this happendd it was the 2400 load. 38 g of 3031 was used on 150 grain jacketed bullet which acording to my lyman manual is starting load. Your right my calculation was off for the 185 grain bullet and the load of 3031 i used.

[Stearns]

How can i tell if the gun is damaged? Its a sportered 303 that i paid $120 thats why i am hesitant to pay a gunsmith to checkit out. I would rather just buy another if i can find one. I dont want to discard a good shooting rifle either

[1johnlb]

My advice, gunsmith. Your life is worth more than $120. Looks like headspace problems to me and now possibly a bent bolt. Use it as a crouch, a boat Paddle, a baseball bat ,but I wouldn't shoot it. Just my 2cents.

[PAT303]

Not head space but over sized chamber. Pat

[Stearns]

Not head space but over sized chamber. Pat

I thought oversized chamber was normal on these? I do i tell if its too big?

[Stearns]

My advice, gunsmith. Your life is worth more than $120. Looks like headspace problems to me and now possibly a bent bolt. Use it as a crouch, a boat Paddle, a baseball bat ,but I wouldn't shoot it. Just my 2cents.

I have no intention of shooting this gun until i confirm its safe.

[Eddie1971]

I find S&B cases the worst. I've been shooting 303 for years and the best are PPU and Winchester. Neck sizing is way to go. Regarding heads I use Lymans 314299 sized to .314, powder coated, gas checked, over 35-36.5 grains of IMR4350. Shoots great at 100 yards like jacketed with sights at lowest setting. I went up to 40 grains in tests and at 37 accuracy went south and kick went way up. I use a 1916 vintage SMLE. 32-33 grains of IMR4895 worked well too.

[JWFilips]

10 Grains Unique!

[Tigrr]

Lubed versus powder coated and you have to increase the powder to get the same velocity. That is why the accuracy went south.
PC is slipperier.
Same deal with lubed versus molly coated.

[Kraschenbirn]

Lubed versus powder coated and you have to increase the powder to get the same velocity. That is why the accuracy went south.
PC is slipperier.
Same deal with lubed versus molly coated.

Huh? Haven't tried PC in my .303s yet but have consistently picked up a 5%-6% INCREASE in MV using the same powder charge when switching from lubed to PC in other calibers. Actually, backed off powder in my .30-40 Krags by 5% and still gained 26 fps avg. (10-shot string). Ditto with the 7.5 Swiss: same powder/boolit combination with PC chronos just over 100 fps faster (with a slightly lower SD!) than conventional lube.

Bill

[Bama]

I have had several separations. Using a correct sized easy out made short work of removal as long as you don’t get over aggressive. The old school way of using a sharpened paper clip will help prevent loading of cases near. Separation.