Winchester 1894 bolt won't close

[Denya]

Hello everyone been a lurker here on and off for a few years now, love all the info I'm finding.


Back in September I bought a Winchester 1894 made in 1896 in 38-55, only problem I knew of at the time was a broken upper receiver tang that was brazed back on and the stock was a bit cracked and eventually I'll get that replaced.


Didn't do much with the rifle until I had brass (starline 2.125) and reloading dies (rcbs cowboy). cleaned the barrel as best I could and slugged it which came out to .380 so by my understanding I will need .381 or .382 boolits.

After getting the brass in I for whatever reason wanted to try chambering an empty case but it got stuck about 3/8" from fully chambering. Ended up renting a reamer from 4d with the .400 neck and that took care of that problem, brass just drops right in now.

Now my new problem is that the bolt will not close on the go gauge or an empty case, it will close just fine and lock up when empty. I see nothing in the extractor cut and when I have the bolt out of the gun I can set the brass on the bolt face and the extractor grips it fine.
I'm at a complete loss as to what to do or look for. Google only seems to come up with a fix for Marlin guns something about bending the extractor, but nothing really on Winchesters.


Any help I can get would be simply amazing, I'd like to try everything I can myself before I try to find a gunsmith to try their hand at it.
Also I hope this is the right forum.
118386

[Bullshop Junior]

Thats a fine rifle.

You may have to thin the rims on the starline brass. Older brass had much thinner rims then modern cases do.

[osteodoc08]

Is the extractor snapping over the rim?

[marvelshooter]

Have you sized the new brass?

[starnbar]

What junior said and you may have to trim the cases a little bit might be just a tad too long

[GabbyM]

Ditto on trimming cases. 38-55 brass comes in two lengths. I don't know what length Star Line is. So it's very possible to have new cases that are to long for the guns chamber. Plus it could easily be both length and rim thickness and the resulting stacking of tolerance.

[seaboltm]

May be time to cast the chamber.

[skeettx]

Have you tried Winchester factory 38-55 AMMO?
Will it chamber, will the bolt close?

Second queston, is there a burr or pucker around the firing pin hole
in the bolt? Is it smooth?

Mike

[Denya]

No the extractor isn't snapping over the rim and sized or unsized the brass completely drops into the chamber now since I reamed it out.

I did do a chamber cast with cerosafe and it should take the longer brass just fine. I did trim the length on one case just to see and still the same problem so I'll try thinning the rim. About how much should i take off, using my calipers I'm seeing most of the brass has a thickness of .0575. Is there a set amount I should trim off or just start thinning it little by little until the extractor snaps over the rim?


Skeettx I'm not seeing or feeling any bur or pucker around the firing pin hole and I haven't tried any factory ammo not sure I can get any in town or not.

[fouronesix]

No the extractor isn't snapping over the rim and sized or unsized the brass completely drops into the chamber now since I reamed it out.


I think that is clue of some sort.

[Iron Whittler]

Is your extractor located at top of bolt? If yes, cases may have to feed from magazine so as to slide under the extractor as the bolt closes. Load a dummy round(no powder or primer, just a booulit seated in case)to see if it feeds and closes on round. Iron Whittler

[Denya]

Ordered some boolits off of midwayusa .381 diameter before I had to go to work, thought that should at least me me load a dummy round and check that it would load from the magazine. Order should be here by Wednesday.

When I get back from work tonight I'll sacrifice one case and thin the rim to see if that helps.

I have the next 3 days off work so I'll have plenty of time to play around with it.

[Bullshop Junior]

Maybe try sticking a case half way into the chamber and the smacking the lever closed fairly fast and with a little force.

[Denya]

Actually did try that a few times in frustration worked once or twice but more often then not just damaged the rim a bit.



Alright so I get back from work and try thinning the rim thickness but that didn't work so I tried reducing the diameter of the rim and that got it working no sweat. Tried it with 5 cases so far and it worked every time. Assuming that's ok to do I just want to make absolutely sure about something, my barrel doesn't say "nickel steel" or "smokeless" anywhere but what I'm seeing is that as long as I don't exceed maximum BP pressure I can use smokeless powder. Is this true or should I stick with BP or one of its substitutes, at the moment I don't have anything to load BP so hoping smokeless is ok.

[osteodoc08]

Does the extractor move freely or is it gummed up and unable to snap over the rim?

[cwheel]

First thing I would try is to just drop a loaded round into the chamber and see if it has room to fully chamber, don't close the bolt. It should fully chamber freely. Don't try to force the loaded round into the chamber, it should just drop right in to the rim. That would separate issues with the loaded round from others related to the bolt. My brass is trimmed to 2.085 loaded with a .381 boolit and drops right in. I'd try that one first, could be you have a problem with the size of your loaded round. If it does drop right in, time to focus on some mechanical aspect of the bolt/extractor and start working backwards from the bolt. The broken tang makes me wonder as well. I've seen several Winchester 94's that have horse accident damage, broken off stock most common. Rifle rides in a scabbard on the horse, horse takes a fall. Have to wonder what broke the tang off to start with, and what other damage could have been done at the same time.
Chris

[fouronesix]

Chances are pretty good if the barrel is original to the rifle, DOM 1896, the barrel will not be the newer smokeless or nickel steel. Not a big issue with normal, sane cast bullet loads.

All Win M94s are basically push feed so the extractor is supposed to snap over the rim- either when single loading or from the magazine. The loaded cartridge should drop easily into the chamber until the rim fits easily into the rim relief cut-out in the breech face (headspace stop). The extractor cut-out slot in the breech face should align with the extractor and have enough clearance for the extractor to pop over the rim with the round fully chambered.

All this has already been covered in this thread. Try to concentrate on the obvious and not on extraneous issues that can't be the problem in the first place. It really isn't complicated to sort out. The hardest part is from this end without the gun-in-hand and trying to guess.

There is an off chance the bolt or breech has been monkeyed with is some way. I've seen replacement bolts in these guns that were not designed for the cartridge head dimensions. I've seen re-barreled guns where the rim relief and extractor cut-outs were not correct, etc. and so on. The extractor is a simple pinned lever. Obviously, if something is wrong with the extractor or it has been monkeyed with or is wrong or if the bolt or extractor is dinged, it won't swing out correctly and might bind up when trying to pop over the rim.

But still, one step at a time and the diagnosis shouldn't be very complicated. The fix may be more involved.

[yooper]

With the problems you're having chambering cartridges, the broken and brazed top tang, and the replaced buttstock and rear sight (the ones pictured are from a carbine) I'd suspect the possibility of a gun assembled from parts. Personally I'd have it looked at by a reputable 'smith. Just my opinion and worth what it cost you. Good luck.
yooper

[Denya]

Sorry about the lack of updates yesterday things got a bit crazy here.

I think I've got it going pretty well now. Watching the bolt try to close on a case it really looked like the extractor was the issue. I took the extractor off the bolt and tried closing the bolt expecting it to close but it was getting caught on the edge of the bolt. As I said before I didn't see or feel any burs but I took some fine sandpaper to the edge anyway and that made a world of difference. It's still a little hard to close and the rim still gets a bit scraped, but I don't have to hit the lever to make it close.

The dummy rounds I made all chamber and cycling it through the magazine for the most part I think the cartridge stop is a little worn out as I had a few rounds pop out under the carrier, from what I'm seeing i can either peen or weld and reshape the cartridge stop to fix that.


Hope I did good and thanks for all the help I've got so far, I really appreciate it.

[fouronesix]

Yes, the cartridge stops, guides and followers do get worn on those oldsters and they are very particular about being in spec for correctly handling the cartridge from magazine to chamber.

As to the extractor and chambering- that sounds like progress! No problem with polishing and slightly rounding the edges so they clear the bolt recess groove and the relief cut-out in the breech face. The leading edge of the extractor can also be polished so its angled contact surface is smooth for its ride over the edge of the rim.

The other place to look for irregular wear is on the contact surface between the bolt and block at the rear of the bolt. Uneven wear there can really make them herky jerky when chambering a round. That surface should be kept lightly lubed.

[smokeywolf]

If surfaces are rubbing or interfering where they should not be, like where you applied the fine sandpaper. Clean those surfaces and apply some Dykem (layout fluid) or felt tip marker, work your bolt/lever a few times, then check where the Dykem or marker has rubbed away. Not sure how good your eyes are, I have to use a magnifier much of the time to see the rub marks or transfer. In more drastic cases of poor fit or finish, Prussian Blue or lipstick is a good transfer/witness marker.

smokeywolf

[Denya]

Well I am absolutely horrible at keeping you all up to date and I apologize for that.

Rounding the edges of the bolt did the trick every round chambers without a problem now.

The brazing broke off the tang and I had to get that welded back on, only cost me a case of beer for the guy and I think he did a pretty good job. also had the cartridge stop built up no more rounds are popping out the magazine anymore.

Had a chance to shoot it finally a week ago only powder I could get was IMR3031 tried a few loads with 265 grain and 250 grain boolits, 265 didn't like to feed the 250 popped right in most every time. Haven't been able to find an accurate round just yet but I'm in no rush just glad I had a chance to shoot it.


Thanks again for all the help guys

[cwheel]

Loads I worked up for my carbine with a 20" barrel was a Ideal 375296 265 gr. gas checked bullet over 29gr. of 3031 in a 2.085 case. That said, it runs through my chrony @1600 FPS. Bullets were sized @ .381. That is a little hot for most, but mine is set up for hunting. If just for target shooting, I'd load it down to the 1300 FPS range for a little less recoil and comfort. With my old eyes, this load will do 3 shot groups under 3" @100 yards with open sights. After the 3 shots, barrel needs to cool or groups will open up quickly with the heat. In your rifle, I sure would work up the loads and keep an eye out for pressure signs. With your longer barrel, expect to see 1600 FPS at a lower powder charge.
Chris