Being aware, and paying attention are 2 different things. 38 S&W reloading issues.

[Buckshot]

..............I've known for a long time about what happens when you stuff cast lead slugs down through the nicely flared funnel of a casemouth, into a casebody that's been oversized. Or, put another way, "Made too small in ID". You get an addiitonal boolit sizing for free, whether you want it or not. I may be a bit too picky about some things, and not picky enough about other things. In this case I haven't been picky enough to pay much attention to this.

I don't know what made me investigate the issue. I have kind of wondered at the difference in accuracy between my heavenly S&W K-38 and the S&W 'V' model in 38 S&W. I know the Parkerized one was probably made in a big assed hurry, but everything that counts looks to be very well finished. The barrel gleams, nice trigger, etc, etc. One obvious glaring differance is the distance the poor ole boolit in the 'V' model has to travel before meeting any real guidance. I would expect lesser accuracy from it, but it just seemed "Too Lesser", if I might invent a phrase.

I did happen to kind of notice the difference in OD of a fired and unfired/sized cartridge case. It was Mk1 Mod1 eyeball noticeable, even at a distance. I dis-assembled a couple loaded rounds and was, er .......................enlightened :-)

http://www.fototime.com/9328A09C7BCC969/standard.jpg

Easy to see the differance in the cases. Of those 3 lying down the one in the middle was a loaded, dis-assembled round.

http://www.fototime.com/0F40FFA50960AF7/standard.jpg
This fired case has an ID close to the size of the lead slugs I shoot from it. The group buy 145gr RN I size to .363". I'd also made a bump die to convert regular 38 cal slugs to .363" also. I've also loaded the Lee 358-148 WC 'As Cast' of pure lead. They mike right around .357".

http://www.fototime.com/ABC5B082138E48F/standard.jpg

This was a first glimmer of a possible reason. Also, the inside of these Starline cases begin to "Shelve" or taper inward at this point.

http://www.fototime.com/C395D3A150A9504/standard.jpg

As they say, "Ah-HA! A couple Lyman 358430's cast of pure lead.

http://www.fototime.com/EC33FB6D3A87EF1/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/1E675673BEE6C9D/standard.jpg

Now I'll have to try just barely sizing the cases maybe a thousandth and see if that makes a differance in how the 'V' models shoot.

..................Buckshot

[Bass Ackward]

Yep. Found that out last year when I got my spinner.

I think most inaccuracy for cast rounds occur during the reloading process. And you found a big reason why. Modern brass and dies just doesn't think about PB anymore. That leads to all kinds of adaptation and theories by us.

And if you are loading without a form fitted punch in your seater die, that's really worse. So when guys favor this design over that, is it because their dies fit that bullet best to be able to seat it straight?

How about diameter? Does it take a larger diameter bullet for their throat? Or because their reloading dies seat it straighter?

I don't weight my bullets for high velocity, but I do spin them now. The rifles I have success with do load ammunition with little run out. Certainly makes one wonder about folks that have problems.

And it doesn't just affect the base. Now that you know it's happening, put that stuff on a spinner and watch the runout. :grin: It will have you scratching your head how it shoots as well as it does. At least to the ranges you limit it. :grin:

[lathesmith]

Buckshot, you can rule out the distance of travel as a cause of inaccuracy. I keep hearing this myth over and over--and yet my S&W N frame 45ACP shoots better than I can, and there is certainly a long jump there. In fact this isn't a fluke--these guns have a reputation for accuracy. Besides, my Victory seems to shoot as well as my other model 10's, and I consider them to be capable of good accuracy.
That's amazing that the case seems to be sizing those boolits down .018. How much force does it take to seat those things?! BTW, that 358430 you are using is VERY similar to the 358195 that I use in my Victory and other '38's, and it is one of my favorite and most accurate 38 slugs. Man, I wish a group buy would pop up for one of these! Ahh, but I'm dreaming again...anyway, you are on the right track, please let us know what you come up with, I would be very interested in your 38 S&W load.
lathesmith

[44man]

That is the main reason I use hard boolits for accuracy, I don't want the brass to size the boolit. When I use any softer lead I have a bunch of home made expanders that will still give me tension without sizing.
That is what I did with the Marlin that is giving me trouble. I changed expanders for the alloy used and as I increased the boolit diameter.
The softer your lead, the less case tension can be used. With pure, it will be very slight and is one reason they don't shoot good with heavy loads of slow powder.
If you want to check to see if the brass is sizing the boolit, DO NOT CRIMP IT before pulling the boolit to measure. The crimp will size the boolit when you pull it.

[44man]

Buckshot, the distortion is caused by seating in too tight of a case with soft lead, with a seating die that does not hold the boolit in line. Your boolit is crooked in the die and you are depending on the die to straighten them out.
Poor fit with the punch, poor die design and seating too fast all are causes too.
Loading should be a very slow, easy process so you can feel everything. My friends that work a press handle like they need to load 1000 per hour can't hit a thing. I have seen some of their loads for the .45 ACP that had lead on the outside of the brass from slamming the boolits in without enough flare to start with. None would even chamber. It was a good laugh for me. :mrgreen:
Think quality instead of quantity.

[9.3X62AL]

Some of the "problems" Rick is discussing here concerning the 38 S&W can be brought on by poorly-dimensioned die components, too. I bought the RCBS Cowboy Die Set in 38 S&W for processing this caliber, and it was a disappointment on a couple fronts. I should note here that 2 of my revolvers (Webley-Enfield and S&W M&P Victory Model) have .363" throats, while an older Iver Johnson top-break is about .361".

The set's steel sizing die is fine. It does good work at proper dimensions for the caliber (about .386"), but requires case lube as do all steel F/L sizers. Being the Collector Of Odd Caliber Pistols that I am, I have a 9mm Makarov die set with tungsten-carbide sizer die. The 9Mak T/C sizer worked perfectly, giving .386"-.387" outside diameter depending on case make. I attribute the variances between case makes to their varying wall thicknesses and resulting spring-back differences.

The first (and worst) anomaly came with the expander die--its expander rod. It is perfectly dimensioned--for the 38 Special. It mics .354", and the spud length causes it to bottom out in all cases well before the flaring shoulder contacts the case mouth. Useless.

9mm Mak to the rescue once again. Its expander rod is short in length and .360" in diameter, enabling both case mouth flare and a good hold to .363" boolits. Love it when a plan comes together

A call to RCBS was (as always) cheerful and helpful. I explained the length and diameter problem, and the rep asked, "Didn't you get two expander rods with that set?"

"No, just the one."

"We'll send you the pair." Done deal. The "pair" arrives a few days later, and the rods are marked ".358" and ".360", and have corresponding spud diameters........and 38 Special spud lengths. Mak expander, it is and shall remain.

Up to this time, I had been using the Lyman #358430 "Beagled" to about .361" and sized in a RCBS custom sizer of same dimension. This was well before Rick started making his H&I sets. Using the .361" boolits, all went well in the stock RCBS seater die--boolits went to their proper depth, roll crimp was set properly--nuthin' to not like. Enter the NEI #169A samples from OKSMLE........sized at .363", they refused to enter the seater die's bullet alignment sleeve--too fat. Having "seen this movie" once before with .461" boolits in the RCBS 45-70 seater die, I resolved the matter in the same way--I backed off the seater die body, lowered the seater stem, and carefully seated bullets using the case flare and seating stem to "center and align" the boolit (such as it was), then slowly seat to the proper depth. The tapered RN profile of the #169A gave no interference to the alignment sleeve with the boolits seated, so crimping was done as a separate step after boolit seating. PITA! With the #169A mould now in hand to provide more castings, my intent is to try using the 9mm Mak seater die for seating--its alignment collar will fit a .363" boolit--then use the 38 S&W seater die for crimping in a 4th die step on the Ponsness-Warren P-200.

That's my story--and I'm sticking to it.

Few truer words have ever been spoken (well, TYPED) on this board than those posted above by Bass Ackward concerning modern dies and cases NOT being adapted to cast boolits.

[Jim]

Buckshot,
I like the way you backdrop your photos with graph paper. Gives it a kind of "labratory" look.

[Bret4207]

Jim, that's not graph paper. It's shelf paper like your Mom used back in '67. Al tells me Bucksnort is SO cheap he did the entire interior of his loading room in shelf paper he bought at a a clearance sale at the very last Woolworths store in Calyforneeay. The onlyist problem is he got it a little crooked and everyone tends to walk downhill and to the left in his loading room.

It gets worser- He did his machine shop in shelf paper made for an infants rooms. Duckys and bunnies are nice, but lack a certain manliness we'd expect from a mule lover.......

[Dale53]

This is a good thread, all...

>>>modern dies and cases NOT being adapted to cast boolits.<<<

I have been loading for a long time and discovered some of the same problems back in the dark ages. I have NO explanation why this sort of thing continues, but it does. Years ago, I had a friendly machinist (man, it is NICE to have friends) make me a custom expander stem for my .38 Specials (when I was shooting NRA Bullseye). It REALLY made a difference.

When using an expander for soft bullets (including BPCR) I like the expander to be bullet size or .001" smaller. This gives adequate bullet tension (the brass spring back will normally give about .002" tension) for target loads and BPCR without damaging those carefully cast bullets.

Keep mind that you need considerably more case neck tension for magnum revolver loads using relatively slow burning powders to get adequate ignition and to keep the bullets from jumping the crimp (I am talking about such as .44 magnum or .454 Casull, etc). THAT is a whole different ball game.

Knowing what to use for what purpose takes you to a higher level of expertise and tends to come after many years of experience. The cast boolit forum is shortening the learning curve for many of us as WE FREELY SHARE INFORMATION! (the real reason we are here, IMO).

Good thread!

Dale53

[mroliver77]

On other forums I would see guys state that they dont use the expander and get .007 amount of interference and other statements to this effect. I dont know how many times I have been advised to post size and taper crimp and yadda yadda. When you have oversize throats and need a boolit .003 - .005 oversize from standard this just does not work but sizes boolit in the case. Same for over sized(too small) cases and soft boolits. I do not use the Lee universal expander or needle nose pliers to expand as it makes starting the boolit concentric with the case much more of a hit and miss affair. Like Al I play muisical die parts sometimes to get the fit I want. The Lyman M die makes it much easier to get a concentric start (and finish).
I do load peestol boolits on a progressive and set no speed records but can pile it up quickly. It shoots better than I can hold. I am no Elmer Kieth with a pistol but do impress most of my friends. ;)
Very good thread.
J

[lathesmith]

make me a custom expander stem for my .38 Specials


The cast boolit forum is shortening the learning curve for many of us as WE FREELY SHARE INFORMATION! (the real reason we are here, IMO).

Dale, you hit the nail on the head buddy. For me, making my own stuff in my little machine shop is even BETTER than having friends do it. And it really amazes and impresses me the nice folks you meet on the 'net who are willing to share their fixes, experiences, and information. I guess that is the main reason I take the time to do it myself--get a little, give what you can. I love these forums!
lathesmith

[AZ-Stew]

Buckshot,

I realize you're an experienced caster and handloader, but I have to ask a question, with all due respect, since the answer's not obvious from what you posted.

Are you sizing the .38 S&W cases with a .38 S&W die, or a .38 Special/.357 Magnum die? The .38/.357 die will excessively size .38 S&W cases, since they're larger in diameter than the .38 Special/.357 Magnum. The .38 S&W requires its own sizer die.

This may have been a stupid question on my part, but I had to ask.

Regards,

Stew

[happy7]

Anybody have any experience with what is a good alloy for 38 S&W in the older guns? Pure lead or some mixture of WW and lead I assume. Advise requested!

[Dale53]

lathesmith;
Thanks for the kind words. In my early reloading days, I had a couple of VERY close friends and we all shared information. We all had mechanical backgrounds of one sort or another and that helped us to understand the "mechanics" of the problems and cures.

Here, on this forum, we don't have a couple of friends, but several thousand of them. The only problem, we don't know, at least at first, who is knowledgeable and who is only parroting something that they heard from "Charlie's cousin, who got it from a very reliable source from his cousin in Afghanistan:mrgreen:". However, after you are here for awhile you begin to understand that there are some VERY knowledgeable people who have tons of skills in various aspects of reloading and bullet casting.

We are blessed...

Happy7;
The alloy for a .38 S&W should not be a "critical" decision. My old "go to" formula is w/w+2% tin and that should work just fine if the bullets are sized correctly. The tin is just to make for better/easier fill out.

Dale53

[beagle]

Buckshot...pull some cast from .30 Carbine rounds and you're really in for a surprise. That sturdy little case swages them way down but doesn't seem to affect accuracy./beagle

[Buckshot]

Buckshot,

I realize you're an experienced caster and handloader, but I have to ask a question, with all due respect, since the answer's not obvious from what you posted.

Are you sizing the .38 S&W cases with a .38 S&W die, or a .38 Special/.357 Magnum die? The .38/.357 die will excessively size .38 S&W cases, since they're larger in diameter than the .38 Special/.357 Magnum. The .38 S&W requires its own sizer die.

This may have been a stupid question on my part, but I had to ask.

Regards,

Stew

...............Gee, I'm a bit late getting back eh!? Like 9.3x62AL mentioned his size die issues (RCBS) I had the similar problem with my Lee dies. They seem to think you're supposed to use a .360" boolit in the 38 S&W. Since one at .363" fits easily that's what I use. So on AL's endorsement I bought the Makarov dies. The seater die will work with a .363" cast slug. The sizer still sizes the case down a bit too much though, as they assume you're using a jacketed bullet. I suppose a new M die is called for.

Reviewing this further and inspecting many fired cases, the roll crimp I've been using is still very much in evidence. I think this is what is doing the bulk of the 'downsizing' as the boolit passes out. I haven't checked to see if it will work, but a 38 Special size die may be usefull to use as a taper crimper.

My shop looks like the Wreck of the Hesperus. I can see where my loading bench is supposed to be :-) I'm hoping in a couple days to have all the flotsam and jetsom back into their new places.

...............Buckshot

[44man]

Strange that Lathesmith has expressed the way I feel about boolit jump. It has been such a myth that some gun makers insist on making cylinders so short that a seated boolit is exactly at the front edge so even a few thousandths crimp jump will tie up the gun. Not a good position to be in with an attacking griz! [smilie=1:
Anyway I took a picture of what can be called a LARGE jump with target results you have all seen before but it will put things in perspective.
There are two, five shot groups on the right target and the left is three shots. These were shot at 50 yd's.

[Glen]

If the taper in the case walls are giving you an extra .018" in bullet sizing, then doing a short-stroke sizing of the case mouth won't do you any good. There is, at most, only .005" of sizing coming from that issue, but another .018" coming from the thick-walled case farther down. The solution here is to either ream the cases out and get rid of that extra thickness, or to use a hollow-based bullet (like the 358431).

[slughammer]

...............

I haven't checked to see if it will work, but a 38 Special size die may be usefull to use as a taper crimper.

My shop looks like the Wreck of the Hesperus. I can see where my loading bench is supposed to be :-) I'm hoping in a couple days to have all the flotsam and jetsom back into their new places.

...............Buckshot

I've been using a 9mm size die for a taper crimp on 38 spl. Works great.

Are you sure you're not in my shop? And how can we tell?

[Echo]

Re the .38 S&W - I bought my youngest son a 4" Colt PP in 38 S&W. Just his size, as he was about 12 at the time, and noticed that the RCBS dies oversized the brass, similar to preceding posts. We partially sized in 38 Spec carbide, then cast hard boolits that would hold shape as they were seated. Worked for us.
And I don't use GI .38 brass for the same reason - too tough, and swages down the boolit when seated, unless made of very stern stuff.

EE