Interesting S&W barrel problem.

[S.R.Custom]

So a couple of months ago I bought one of these new. It's one of the 3" Lew Horton M29 square butt .44 Magnums...

http://www.lewhorton.com/S%26W150122FC.JPG

I put a box o' .44 Special shells through it, brought it home, put a wet patch through it, looked down the bore and saw something funny. After 50 rounds, it was fouled unmercifully. So I ran a bronze bush through it a few times until I got all the lead out. But what I thought was the the last bit wouldn't come out.

So I ran a bronze brush through it a few more times. This time, no change. Hmmm.

So I ran a bronze brush through it a LOT of times. No change. The last bit wouldn't come out. Hmmmm.

So I put a steel brush through it a few times. No change. Hmmmm.

So now I'm getting perturbed, so I chucked up the steel brush in the cordless drill, thinking that will get the fouling out. No change. Well, what the %^#@*&!

So I take it to my gunsmith buddy, who's got a bore-scope, and the pics below are what we see. The "fouling" is steel; it's part of the barrel!

I'm guessing the barrel is one of those done on the new EDM (or is it ECM?) process, and there was something wrong with the unit that does the rifling. The "fouling" is raised steel in the grooves just forward of the throat, and is sufficiently raised in the grooves that accuracy, as you can imagine, is a sometime thing, and lead bullet fouling is horrendous. Closest to the throat it's almost as high as the adjacent lands.

The pics below are made with my digital camera on macro, the second of which was taken down the barrel, viewed from the muzzle end. Damn. How'd that barrel ever make it out of the factory? You reckon S&W will replace it?

http://www.salmonriverdesign.com/STUFF/ConeView2.JPG

http://www.salmonriverdesign.com/STUFF/muzzleView2.JPG

[357maximum]

I know I would be making a phone call to S&W this morning.....WOW EDM Electrical Discharge Machining...looks like someone forgot to pay the electric bill when your barrel was almost finished....:0

[Bass Ackward]

Doesn't that make you sick. That's why it's nice to have a bore scope.

Or maybe not so nice in this case. If it makes you feel better, I have seen far worse. :grin:

Hope they have a spare barrel for that?

[lathesmith]

Here's a link to a site where a guy had a similar problem to yours, and his final (drastic) solution:
http://tinyurl.com/yvwqh8

I am glad this guy posted this, I found the info useful. OTOH, I really hate to see people get burned on a new gun purchase, especially at those price levels. Dang....
lathesmith

[dubber123]

Interesting, I have a new 625 that leads a bit right in front of the forcing cone. I always assumed it was the common constriction at the threads. Maybe I should take a closer look....

[danski26]

HMMMMMM My prediction is S&W will say "it's within specs". Lets see if i'm proved wrong.

[S.R.Custom]

Hope they have a spare barrel for that?

That's my fear... I've sent them an email with a link to this thread so they can see the pics...


It seems to be a common issue with this type of operation. I've got a newish Model 60 (6 months old) with a 3" barrel that exibits the same defect, but to a much lesser degree; accuracy is good and there is not a fouling problem, so I'm not concerned about it in the Model 60.

[dubber123]

Being that it's basically a constriction, I would bet fire lapping would help alot, especially if that barrel cannot be replaced with the same style.

[S.R.Custom]

The muzzle view pic is deceptive; the perspective fore-shortening effect of the macrolens in the muzzle view pic doesn't show the full extent of the problem. The raised defect in the grooves extends a good 3/4" down the barrel. That would take a LOT of lapping, and wouldn't leave much rifling when it was done... :-?

[KCSO]

Having dealt with Smith a lot over the years i would bet for shipping costs you will get a new barrel.

[Bass Ackward]

Interesting, I have a new 625 that leads a bit right in front of the forcing cone. I always assumed it was the common constriction at the threads. Maybe I should take a closer look....


The first thing I did was slug my new one. I wasn't interested in exact measurement, but just the feel of it and then how well it fit the throats. No constriction, but it sure wasn't smooth either. Boy oh boy what a difference in the throats from the old 25-2s. Nice snug fit now.

Still doing break in and I noticed I was hitting a little hard high left, but my problem was high spots on the crane not allowing full or proper closure of the cylinder. Corrected that with a stone and it looks like things will be well.

[dubber123]

The first thing I did was slug my new one. I wasn't interested in exact measurement, but just the feel of it and then how well it fit the throats. No constriction, but it sure wasn't smooth either. Boy oh boy what a difference in the throats from the old 25-2s. Nice snug fit now.

Still doing break in and I noticed I was hitting a little hard high left, but my problem was high spots on the crane not allowing full or proper closure of the cylinder. Corrected that with a stone and it looks like things will be well.

Other than about 1/8" of leading rioght after the forcing cone, it shoots clean. Accuracy is 3" or so at 50 yards with a couple different loads, so I don't think it suffers from Supermags problem, or at least a much milder case of it. I don't stop shooting it long enough to really see whats up!

[rumbuffalo]

I have the same problem on my 29-10 bounty hunter 3 inch barrel. along with .014 on one side of the barrel cylinder gap and .005 on the other. :???:

It doesnt seem to affect accuracy but it has a bad leading problem as well, At least i think so. This is my first revolver so i have no reference but what i got for 50 rds can't be normal i hope, The lead gathered around the crown badly it looked like it was "lead lined". Though i shot non jacketed .44 specials out of it and it didnt do it it might be the ammo.

[leftiye]

Sounds like S&W is cycling back into it's crappy phase.

[runfiverun]

i have heard of s&w having a LOT of barell problems and some not so nice answers lately

just my perception
my 45 acp is nice and was thinking of a new smith but......

runfiverun

[Lloyd Smale]

i agree totaly with the exception of even the shipping cost. call them ahead of time and they will send you a free shipping lable.
Having dealt with Smith a lot over the years i would bet for shipping costs you will get a new barrel.

[S.R.Custom]

Well, I called S&W this morning, and they are sending out a pre-paid shipping label, and are going to give it a look-see.

As this is a Lew Horton non-catalogue gun, I confirmed the availability of a replacement barrel. They have a few, and they are reserved specifically for S&W customer service & warranty work. (They aren't selling them as retail parts.)

I'll keep updating this tale as it unfolds....

[dubber123]

Well, I called S&W this morning, and they are sending out a pre-paid shipping label, and are going to give it a look-see.

As this is a Lew Horton non-catalogue gun, I confirmed the availability of a replacement barrel. They have a few, and they are reserved specifically for S&W customer service & warranty work. (They aren't selling them as retail parts.)

I'll keep updating this tale as it unfolds....

I see a new barrel in your future. Hopefully they screw it on straight.

[odoh]

I noticed the grooves in my X Frame barrel were grey. Lands are pristine clean. Thot it was leading and cleaned, cleaned cleaned. Then assumed it was result of rough cutters in the rifling process. EDM? So thats how they're able to do the gain twist thing. All the other XVRs in the shop looked the same way. my bros included. Was made in 2006

[leftiye]

The gray is (probly) the finish an edm leaves, the edm vaporizes the metal with sparks. In dies and so forth made with an edm, the gray is polished (lapped) out, might be a real good idea in a barrel. Sounds like a real good excuse to fire lap. All the old barrels in S&Ws were real smooth and shiny, too bad someone lost their minds (or something).

[Freightman]

I do not think you will have any problem as my son has a Smith that the finish came off of and he got in touch with them, they sent a lable and when he got it back it was better than new they did the finish and a trigger job also.

[calsite]

HMMMM! I just bought a Smith Mod. 24, I'll be heading down to give it a look right after I get done with this line. OHH! I'd been on the phone yesterday............. I did notce the that the rear end face of he forcing cone and the forward side of the revolvers frame was not as smooth as my Model 57, Hope they didn't just skimp on the finish work. Good Luck, and I'll be right behind you if mine looks like that.

[336A]

SuperMag I'm sorry to hear of this, I fully understand the frustration you must be going through. Last year I bought a brand new S&W M10-14. I bought some cast 158 GR SWC, loaded them up over some Unique and headed for the range (only after properly cleaning the gun of course). At first I wasn't getting what I thought was good accuracy and chalked it up to my inexperience. This went on for several months. One day a fella at the range invited me to try my hand loads through his S&W 686. What a difference I automaticly knew at that point the problem was not my handload or my ability. I got home and started to clean my M10 and for some reason thought of checking the crown of the barrel (I don't know why I never checked it prior to that).

Sure enough I found that my new gun had only two lands that extended to the crown of the barrel.:twisted: The other three lands were at the forcing cone but clearly were not visable at the crown. I called S&W and had a shipping label the next day. The turn around was 1 day shy of 2 weeks. I now have a nice new barrel and I am extremely happy. The whole experience with S&W customer service was very good. I hope that you have no problems with them as well, I hope you are able to get this problem resolved.

[MidnightCookieMonster]

I have a 1 year old model 24 with the same problem; rifling that is not fully cut at the transition to the forcing cone. I was told by S&W that this is not a defect and that the rifling is in spec - I am not a happy camper right now!

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x88/BogoRatta/014.jpg

[Bass Ackward]

MCM,

I understand your disappointment. Been there too many times myself.

But I'll bet that will shoot out in time. From the looks of the tool mark in your forcing cone, it really hasn't been shot all that much, has it?

[StrawHat]

MCM,

What you show is normal.

At least it is on all of my S&W, from 1908 (Model 1905, 32 WCF) to the 1980s (M686 357).

The tool marks can be polished out but rifling has never extended into the forcing cone.

What load are you using in the M24?

Now, the guy with 3 of the 5 grooves not making it to the muzzle, that's a problem!

Better if the rifling was only at the muzzle (as the Paradox guns of H&H).

[quasi]

Another example of why I only buy pinned and recessed Smiths, and prefer them to be 5 screws. Smith and Wessons are not half the gun the used to be.

[calsite]

After reading your post I decided to inspect my Brand New model 24 (Lew Horton) .44 special. Yep, saw the same thing as your seeing. I've only put about 150 rounds through my gun so far. Haven't noticed a bad leading problem yet. Trust me, I will be paying particular attention to that area from now on. Please keep m posted as to what S&W offers you to correct the problem. I think that is total BS, a great american company trying to make a come back and putting out semi defective or blemished barrels, just to save a buck and a minute. I also looked at my S&W mod. 57 that I purchased approximately 1 1/2 years ago. No signs of the same thing in that barrel. sounds to me like they went to a cheaper way of doing things and were willing to accept less quality. That's not what I paid over $700 bucks for. Please keep me posted..

[yarro]

I have bad luck with a lot of S&W products as I seem to buy them when they are having QA issues or when they are cutting corners. The old stuff has been fine, but I learned never to order an S&W gun, but to instead spend a lot of time looking at it at the store. The last one that I bought I made them remove the grips before I would take it just to be sure that a defect was not hidden away. Sad that you have to do this when buying a 650 dollar revolver, but when you have ordered one in the past that rounds would not go into any of the chambers because it has a defective ejector star and an auto that went full auto after 300 rounds you start to get paranoid.

-Yarro

[MidnightCookieMonster]

I haven't made any progress with my complaints to S&W or Lew Horton.... At least S&W replied though (they say the barrel's 'in spec') ... but Lew H hopes by ignoring complainers they will eventually go away and leave then TF alone.....My opinion of either company is pretty low right now based on my current experience !
Has anyone made any headway or do we have to 'eat this'?
@calsite ... any poss. of photo?