Expensive Start-up For Electroplating, Why not Copper wash (electro-less Plating)

[MGnoob]

Any interest in DIY copper wash? I've been thinking about doing a thread on it.

it's not that i don't like PC or Epoxy performance, i just try to keep from handling of every single projectile over and over again.

I noticed while copper plating how quickly electroless immersion plating could be.. It is something to try and avoid in my true copper acid plating set-up.

I used some needle-nose pliers to remove/recover some plastic floating in the a solution that required things to be added to it. Within 5-10 seconds i had a respectable deposit on the ends of the needle-nose pliers.

What i was thinking was a similar solution with a slightly high acid content in a Gatorade sized bottle 1/3 full of projectiles with 3/4 of the volume full with the solution and projectiles. It would be shaken or rolled for 1-5 minutes to attempt to deposit from .001-.002" on the diameter of said projectiles.

Pros:
low start up
Small volume of solution to handle have on hand
Usable/repeatable results
Minimal effort

Cons:
Over time it will be more of a brown finnish
Could be slightly "Dusty" when dry
Thin deposit
Possible slight copper fouling
will more than likely prevent leading in most applications
The solution will have to be monitored closely since there is no anode to dissolve and keep the proper copper content of the solution

If there is any interest in this i have a few great ideas that make make or break the technique. Also if i am going to do it it isn't really for my benefit so i will do it all with thing obtainable for local sources for everyone.

[runfiverun]

that's what this website is all about.

[btroj]

Let's see some shooting results. Does the process prevent leading? How is accuracy?

If it pans out then I think you will find some takers. I never though the coatings would have the following they do, including me.

[MGnoob]

I don't think it will have an effect on accuracy, i think it will be as accurate as the naked and lube projectile and maybe slightly more consistant then some coatings, although i think that alot of the coatings accuracy/consistency has alot to do with how much effort and time you put in. i've found when rushing my epoxy coatings the look of the final result suffered but didn't necessarily effect performance.....i guess we're all just suckers for "sexy" looking boolits.

I am confident it will work with most pistol rounds, and likely reduced loads with rifle.. I could see copper fouling happening over a longer barrel with higher FPS.
When i first started i shot unlubed naked boolits, so i could see leading first hand myself.. i had to shoot 50-100 to begin to be able to see it..i would assume if i kept firing at this point it would accumulate faster and faster.What i have found is keeping some of my epoxy coated projectiles around would allow you to fire a few of them and would remove any trace of leading from the barrel.Which Leeds me to believe pc/epoxy can leed to barrel wear in the same respect firing your gun will eventually wear out a barrel.. It just suprised me how amazingly shiny clean the barrel looks after shooting epoxy must have some wear..Not at a rate that would cause concern, just a reality of use and wear and tear on anything over time.


I was originally going to make a thread about how to convert welders, battery-chargers, or maybe HID lighting or car audio products into serviceable rectifiers for people who don't want to make the initial investment on the proper equipment..It takes a little experience to get a plating set-up to work perfectly, with alot for variables until you achieve perfect results and have a working knowledge to predict and make adjustments to avoid bad loads and problems.

Step 1
I am think a room temperature copper acid solution, shaken or stirred with projectiles in it

Step 2
Citric acid rinse bath (lemi-shine like we use to clean brass)

Step 3
Baking soda neutralization and rinse

Step 4
Alcohol lanoline case lube, to lubricate for sizing and for storage there-after to keep them as shiny as possible

I am pretty confidant we'll be able to achieve a minimum of .001 Dia.(.0005 thickness) with this first process, Although i doubt you'll beable to run the procedure a second time to build thick.More than likely you'll only be able to achieve what ever thickness you get the first time, due to having to use the concentration of acid to get good adhesion without it then attacking itself if tried to be "Washed" again.

My guess is what ever thickness/result you get after the first try will work if it can withstand sizing.

[snuffy]

It's an old saying that some will run full speed past a dollar to get at that dime saved.

With the performance of PC coatings showing the versatility of the process, why try to re-invent the wheel? Copper plating has shown what it can do, but home grown copper plating is just not practical. I don't know what a copper wash is, let alone how it's done. But I have fired some Winchester lead bullets that were copper washed,(very thin coating), and lubed AND gas checked. Those were SWC 240's for my 44 mag. hey worked fine, good clean load, but expesive, nearly what j-words were going for. This was 35 years ago, so before plated bullets were available.

I, myself, have seen what PC boolits can do as for accuracy and complete lack of leading. Even for a .223 boolit @ 3,000 fps! And reasonable accuracy, further load developement would bring under 2" @ 100 yds. .308-190 grain rn with HF red, 2" @ 100 yds., 34.0 grains of H-335.

As for it being abrasive, I refuse to believe it would even come close to what copper jaxeted bullets could do/does. Want proof? Then take something vinyl, rub it on bare steel, see if you can abrade it!!??¿¿

[mdi]

I don't think many of the methods, components, processes we use today are dictated by money/cost (if I were concerned with $$, I would use only one bullet with one powder and all my ammo would use the same primer size, and I would buy in bulk, and reload for the smallest centerfire cartridge I could find that worked for my uses). I have a few $$$ invested in my PC stuff (10 lbs of various powders, dedicated tumbling containers, an electro-static gun, compressor, along with various tools, etc.).,and I have no idea when/if I will break even. Since this is mostly a hobby for the folks here, cost is prolly secondary. I would be interested in more info. on a "copper wash" process, not for any cost savings, but for sumpin' different, fun...

[MGnoob]

The goal was to make the copper wash less expensive and less labor intensive and/or messy than other coatings...

As far as copper plating, electroplating. Your statement of "Copper plating has shown what it can do, but home grown copper plating is just not practical."
Couldn't be further from the truth... my copper plated projectiles cost less than $.01 apiece compaired to .11 for the only projectile i could buy for the last 1.5 years.
Have you read my thread, or at-least looked at the photos.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?236015-Plating-better-easier-than-coating
regardless of what that setup cost i think i have shot(or family members) have shot 30,000+ of the 9mm and i've shot about 10k .223s. I well on my way to recouple my entire reloading equpiment in less than a year...My rifle press only need alittle more use to catch up with the pistol press.The numbers above only reflect my plated projectiles.. i've loaded 10,000 berries 9mm and 2,500 hornady .223s, nevermind the countless i have handcast lube or Epoxy coated.
When you go through that much ammo $.01s add up quick.. I would be happy if i was doin it just to do it or coolness factor, for me it's all about the cheapest ammo without having to find,order, or wait for components.. This powder shortage sucks.

[MGnoob]

I
As for it being abrasive, I refuse to believe it would even come close to what copper jaxeted bullets could do/does. Want proof? Then take something vinyl, rub it on bare steel, see if you can abrade it!!??¿¿

This is far oversimplified explanation, Water is softer and less abrasive than rock, and it has managed to carve the grand canyon overtime.
I never said PC causes barrel wear, just some coating may cause some more wear than naked or plated (elctro-less or electro).
And even then I don't think it's somthing to worry about for 99% of shooters.(everything causes wear)

Anyway, i think i am going to give it a try after my next casting session.The are 3 things i am thinking about before i attempt it

The first thing i think might cause failure is maybe steel immersion-plates/washes better than lead, so maybe i won't experience what i discovered when i dipped my needle-nose pliers. Or maybe with steel you could keep re-dipping it with increased thickness of plate whereas this may not work with lead.

I wanted to use all ingredient available to everyone locally which i will try, but the imersion plating i experienced was brighter and might adheare better with some of the copper brightener additive i use.. it's still available to everyone but not localy and even the small containers you can buy would be a virtual lifetime supply for this application.

The final thing is to maintain the solution i may be easier to electrify it with a small battery (9v) or whatever, of maybe a cellphone charger, plating back and forth between 2 pieces of copper... This may be ideal due to it being almost free compaire to the powersupply/rectifier you need for true electro plating.
It also wouldn't require any special monitoring or regulating just very basic... I think some would ask why not just plate with the battery or cellphone charge. The short answer is that won't work or produce the volume i am trying to achieve (50-100 projectiles, i'm going to start with 25 probibly).

it will probibly be a week or two untill i cast again, i'll post photos and a step by step. I don't want you guys thinking it take lots of containers and baths. i have used 1 box of baking soda and 2 or the Lemi-shine "pouches" to try the approx 40,000 projectile i have sucessfully plated and used it on maybe half of the massive piles i through out while learning how to do it.. This will be somthing you do over you sink.

[GabbyM]

Put the copper in the lead alloy!

Poor fellow whom used to date one of my daughters told me a story. He was waiting tables up here in Yankee land. Pair of southern gents came in and ordered sweet tea. He, being a teenage neophyte, brought around tea with sugar. They politely asked for sweet tea. He replied there is more sugar on the table. They replied. No the sugar goes into the tea. Hard theory to grasp sometimes.

I put my copper into my lead alloy.

[MGnoob]

Put the copper in the lead alloy!

Poor fellow whom used to date one of my daughters told me a story. He was waiting tables up here in Yankee land. Pair of southern gents came in and ordered sweet tea. He, being a teenage neophyte, brought around tea with sugar. They politely asked for sweet tea. He replied there is more sugar on the table. They replied. No the sugar goes into the tea. Hard theory to grasp sometimes.

I put my copper into my lead alloy.


Now why would i want to put the copper in the alloy? I considered it due to when i melt rejected plated projectiles i could add copper content to the alloy.I even did some reading about it.But i kept thinking what would be the benefeit to what i am trying to achieve.Harder more durable alloy?? Why is this something i would want? I don't really want a harder alloy, i am trying to keep the effects of my projectiles on steel to a minimum.

[btroj]

Copper in the alloy won't increase barrel wear.

Mcnoob, are you looking to sell the stuff for the process? Is it stuff we can easily purchase? How long does it take to "coat" the bullets?

My suggestion is to find a couple guys who are willing to test the process and report on the results. Let them report on how it works, ease, cost, and results. That will be what it takes to sell the members here.

[MGnoob]

Copper in the alloy won't increase barrel wear.

Mcnoob, are you looking to sell the stuff for the process? Is it stuff we can easily purchase? How long does it take to "coat" the bullets?

My suggestion is to find a couple guys who are willing to test the process and report on the results. Let them report on how it works, ease, cost, and results. That will be what it takes to sell the members here.

I'm not looking to sell anything, just trying to off an alternative method to other members.I plan to do a few initial tests and let those interested in the community loose on the idea on th eidea / process....i am thinking the whole thing will take between 5-10 min. per batch.

Can anyone tell me what a pound of intermediate quality Powder coat costs? and an estimated number of projectiles(and size) that 1 lb will coat?

I can give you and idea of what the supplies cost, but until we are further along than concept and initial testing we won't know how far you can strech the supplies.To start your own experimenting you would need:

1 quart battery acid from auto zone $7.00 (This is 33% concentration)
1 gallon DI water from walmart under $1
1 16 ounce container of a product containing copper sulfate/pentihydrate don't remember the brand name off hand but i think it is $5-$6

1 box baking soda $1
1 pouch of lem-shine... They range in size but are a few dollars

Copper brightening agent, we are going to start without due to cost..i think the smallest containers are about $45, which we may not need and would treat probably over 100 gallons of this solution

Other then that you will need a few plastic containers


as soon as i give it a try. fail or sucess i will provide photos, if unsuccessful i will try 2-3 attempts/methods.
Maybe it won't work or won't be thick/durable enough but you never know till you try and if it does work it may be worth doing

[MGnoob]

Copper in the alloy won't increase barrel wear.


I wouldn't think it would.. but i still don't see why you would want to...Whats the benefeit?

[MGnoob]

i i saw this thread and read most of it
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?176886-Cast-bullets-with-copper-enriched-alloy

I liked the thread for a few reasons then it kinda of fell apart into a "I caught a fish and it was THIS BIG!" to "No you didn't!"
it suggested a place to get copper sulfate
It disucced using copper sulfate to add copper to alloy
It said zinc contamination can be removed from alloy with copper sulfate.

I would like to read more about all these things, The only benefeit i learn about adding copper to an alloy was maybe hardening Pb or range scrap with copper.
I don't know enough about it yet to say if that would work for me. I just think i should be reclaiming the copper from my rejected plated boolits, to either Use to harden alloy, Melt it down and try to use it as an anode again for electro-plating, or just cash it in for scrap.

I used to pretty much use WW for everything, i like an alloy that has sufficient characteristics without having to heat treat.Now the longer i cast and with the amount of casting i do, i grab anylead i can get my hands on for free and try to say away from buying WW even though it is such a multi-functioning alloy.

Now for the completely off topic, I want to try adding some Tin to my alloys, i don't really have a problem with fill out or rejects, most bad bases or rear drive bands that do com out bad are opperator error, but there must be a couple that are cause by bad fill-out. Just somthing i would like to try.

[MGnoob]

I just want to finish this thread by saying I have been experimenting with my copper wash. And while it does produce usable results in pistol cal, its results are less than desirable.Other options surpass it from an effort-result-cost standpoint.

It does prevent leading in pistol, but the reject rate is just to high.

[62chevy]

I just want to finish this thread by saying I have been experimenting with my copper wash. And while it does produce usable results in pistol cal, its results are less than desirable.Other options surpass it from an effort-result-cost standpoint.

It does prevent leading in pistol, but the reject rate is just to high.

Cool that you came back with this update. Just got into powder coating this year and would have loved copper plating better but as you have already said cost are to high. Copper wash sounded good but may not be usable at all or more testing is needed.

Are you done testing or just getting started?

[Walter Laich]

Love PC but always looking out for something new to learn. What keeps me from being under the sod.

[fredj338]

There were quite a few casting outfits offering copper washed bullets years ago. I no longer see them offered so maybe it wasn't all that & a bag of chips.