How far can you a shoot a 357 Magnum revolver?

[ErnieBishop]

This is something that has been cooking for several weeks now.
How far can you shoot a 357 Magnum Revolver (not a singleshot), use all six cylinders, and still group 10-12 inches?
I'm talking about a group on a steel target.
What do you think?
Or even better what have you accomplished?

[jmort]

At least 200 yards/meters. Not me, but others.

[aspangler]

200 yards at least. I have seen consistent ringing of 12 inch gongs at 300 with a six inch barrel Taurus.

[Zim]

I've been confused by questions like this. I learned to shoot pistols in a field. If you can see it, you can hit it. Our "range" went out to 100 yards and we would pop or chase aluminum cans into the high weeds. Start them at 15 yards and inevitably, they would pop off into the high grass and we would be shooting at 1 can. 50 yards, 75 yards and 100 yards where it was too small (not a piece bigger than a 1/4 of the can and that would be WELL ventilated) to see in the grass.

To answer your question, soda can at 100 yards easy. 12" is a big target compared to pieces of a can. I was shooting a 2 3/4" Ruger Security Six normally. Fun times. Been a while and I am out of practice. The new range has me shooting clay pigeons on the berm at 50 yards. Not as challenging.

These were lead bullet loads. Usually 158 gr Lyman 358156 Thompsons over Unique, green dot, bullseye or 231. Needless to say, we practiced a lot. The soda cans were good because you could call colors. Red, green, blue etc. With the clays, Orange...

Best shot, and no I will not repeat it, was a ricochet at ~75 yards, creating a large cloud of dust, then taking a 7up can full of water off of a log at 100 yards. Centered the can. Spectacularly.

[ErnieBishop]

I will be using a scope. My eyes are not that good for critical iron sight shooting.
I will shoot from either the bench or a field rest (maybe both).
I will be shooting either 170's or 180's (maybe both).
You can tell I have not done this yet.

[ErnieBishop]

I think I can see further than I can shoot accurately with a scope.
I am not looking for one or two hits, but consistent hits (6-shot group).
I know 200 yards is a given, as ISHMA folks have been ringing steel at 200 for a long time.
Really looking for a group that is 10 inches or under.

I've been confused by questions like this. I learned to shoot pistols in a field. If you can see it, you can hit it. Our "range" went out to 100 yards and we would pop or chase aluminum cans into the high weeds. Start them at 15 yards and inevitably, they would pop off into the high grass and we would be shooting at 1 can. 50 yards, 75 yards and 100 yards where it was too small (not a piece bigger than a 1/4 of the can and that would be WELL ventilated) to see in the grass.

To answer your question, soda can at 100 yards easy. 12" is a big target compared to pieces of a can. I was shooting a 2 3/4" Ruger Security Six normally. Fun times. Been a while and I am out of practice. The new range has me shooting clay pigeons on the berm at 50 yards. Not as challenging.

These were lead bullet loads. Usually 158 gr Lyman 358156 Thompsons over Unique, green dot, bullseye or 231. Needless to say, we practiced a lot. The soda cans were good because you could call colors. Red, green, blue etc. With the clays, Orange...

Best shot, and no I will not repeat it, was a ricochet at ~75 yards, creating a large cloud of dust, then taking a 7up can full of water off of a log at 100 yards. Centered the can. Spectacularly.

[Zim]

Mixed comments. We were shooting iron sights and Weaver stance. My vision has progressively deteriorated and I've now got bifocals. Can still hit clays - not every time, but 1-2 times per cylinder. The others are in your 10" circle.

I'm shooting a TC Contender off the bench and find it fairly easy at 50 yards (time for the 200 yard range.) This is with a 2x 223 14", 32 Mag 10" or a 357 10". I'm learning the Contender. More fun off hand, IMHO.

10" sounds like you are hunting. Are you planning on shooting off sticks? Or from a blind with a rest? I suggest practice without a scope and off hand to get a feel for the trigger and gun.

My scoped pistols are HEAVY. I prefer the lighter ones for casual shooting. Try it. See what works for you. Lighter means I can practice more. Just remember to smile. It makes you shoot better!

[ErnieBishop]

Yes, I do hunt, but I expect my max distance to be beyond what I would ever consider hunting at.
I still hunt, spot-n-stalk, and stand hunt.
When I hunt I use natural field rests, my pack, shooting sticks and BOG-GEAR's CLD-3 and HD-3 with their PSR Top and the Sargent Sniper Rest (SSR). I also use small field or pillow bags.
My steel targets are 10" square (1/2 A500).
I don't use TC's anymore-not pleased with their accuracy for their size.
I do use XP's and MOA Maximum's and I shoot them way beyond any consideration in this thread.
So, back to revolvers.
I will only be using a scope-NO iron sights for this.

[Beagle333]

6 shots from a revolver, 10 inch group, iron sights, standing? Mebbe 40 yards. I always cowboy shoot. I never actually shoot that far. I really don't know if I could even hit a soda can at 100 with any of 6 shots.

[ErnieBishop]

Not standing. From the bench, prone or seated using a field rest.

6 shots from a revolver, 10 inch group, iron sights, standing? Mebbe 40 yards. I always cowboy shoot. I never actually shoot that far. I really don't know if I could even hit a soda can at 100 with any of 6 shots.

[BCgunworks]

Off of bog gear 225 is as far as I have gone with the Franken ruger. And the groups are still tight enough to go farther.

The biggest factor will be your ability to adjust for drop with your optics

[Zim]

ErnieBishop,
How big is your field? Start short at 50 or 100 yards. Get comfortable on the bench at this distance and walk the steel out. Have a spotter to help you walk the hits onto the target. Set your sights and bang away. Elmer Keith tells of some long range shots. How far do you want to shoot? All it takes is practice.

What pistol are you doing this with? Scope is 2x or 4x or more? Sounds like fun, but I won't be able to spot for you. Wyoming is a drive.

You will want to prove your kit too. Make sure your velocity and boolits won't lead the barrel. High speed for flat shooting? RN or FN? GC or PB? New pistol or how loose is your cylinder? Lots to consider.

To answer your question, I've shot at 100 yards with repeatable accuracy. Others have mentioned 200 yards. If you and your kit are up to it, why not 1000 yards?

[44man]

It really depends. Long ago with a 27 S&W with the 358156 HP I could hit 1" targets from prone, scoped at 100 yards. Back in 56 and 57 I was shooting and hitting with the .44 mag to 550 yards. Open sights.
I don't know the limit for the .357 but it will be FAR.
The question should be how far is lethal on game and the .357 is CLOSER. My comfort zone might be close to 20 yards on deer but for fun, it is how you load and accuracy so why not 600+ yards?

[rintinglen]

From a bench, a good 357 loaded with a suitable bullet that it likes, will group into 8 inches consistently. Some groups will be better, but I fall into the group that says "Don't tell me what you can hit, tell me what you can't miss," when it comes to accuracy. Jesus rose from the dead, but that is not the statistical average.

[ErnieBishop]

I will be able to adjust for my drops by means of stadia lines and running the turret-No Holdovers for this project!
Not sure which scope yet though.

Off of bog gear 225 is as far as I have gone with the Franken ruger. And the groups are still tight enough to go farther.

The biggest factor will be your ability to adjust for drop with your optics

[ErnieBishop]

Oh, I miss alright. Just talk to anyone who has shot with me when I am shooting at distance.
My hitting and missing will have more to do with the wind, than anything else.

From a bench, a good 357 loaded with a suitable bullet that it likes, will group into 8 inches consistently. Some groups will be better, but I fall into the group that says "Don't tell me what you can hit, tell me what you can't miss," when it comes to accuracy. Jesus rose from the dead, but that is not the statistical average.

[ErnieBishop]

500 yards is my personal goal. Anything more is just gravy.

It really depends. Long ago with a 27 S&W with the 358156 HP I could hit 1" targets from prone, scoped at 100 yards. Back in 56 and 57 I was shooting and hitting with the .44 mag to 550 yards. Open sights.
I don't know the limit for the .357 but it will be FAR.
The question should be how far is lethal on game and the .357 is CLOSER. My comfort zone might be close to 20 yards on deer but for fun, it is how you load and accuracy so why not 600+ yards?

[BCgunworks]

Well we know 101 is a clean deer kill

[dubber123]

What is the gun and load? Some revolvers can shoot 200+ gr. boolits which I feel might be a help at longer distances. I'm currently fooling with a 210 gr. in one of my .357's. It did well enough I need to stretch the range out a bit. Another member on the site shot silhouettes in Ca. for years with the same gun I have, and prefers boolits in the 200 gr. range. He now shoots groups for fun with a scope, and I believe he was reporting 200 meter groups in the 2" range.

[ErnieBishop]

It is a Ruger GP-100, that will be turned into what Chris Rhodes of Bayside Custom Gunworks calls a Franken-Ruger. Read this and watch the vids for more info (If you want) http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?255451-Bang-s-Paradise-Valley-hunt-and-shooting-cool-handguns
I shot two of his prototypes last week and I was impressed with accuracy I was getting.
Mine will be a 13" barrel. It will be a scoped field shooting and hunting revolver, not a carry on your hip set-up.
Not sure of the load but will consider the 170 grain Sierra, and the 158 and 180 grain Hornady XTP's. I may just use Frank Bliss' Extremuntion commercial ammunition.

[gunarea]

I shot IHMSA for many years with all the different race guns and chose to try some 357 work for the challenge. Turned a S&W 66 blue(the color of motorcycle pipe using regular gas) with max Blue dot loads. Failed miserably with 2400 looking for velocity from a Blackhawk. Dubber is correct on using heavier bullets. A Saeco 200 gr was the ticket for full points on rams. The Ruger and a Uberti rolling block give consistant head hits and knock them several inches clear of the rail. My Lyman 160 gr devistator was just as accurate but failed to carry the steel clear of the rail. I would be hesitant to take a 200 meter shot at a deer using the lighter slugs. The Saeco bullet was actually ment for my 35 Rem and at similar muzzle velocities takes deer. My opinion falls with those whom are very confident in accuracy only being dependant upon the loose nut on the trigger. On rams, I aim at the hole. At big matches, I hit the damm hole, a lot! With this in mind, I am waay not the best shot out there.

Roy

[ErnieBishop]

Thanks.
Not trying to knock anything over or kill anything except steel.
500 yards is my goal for a 6-shot group (full cylinder), anything beyond that is gravy.

[ProfGAB101]

At our old shooting area we climbed up the back side of the hill and hung the lower half of a rear door from a 76 Chevy van with some 1/4" steel cable. Not sure the exact size but I'm guessing about 24" x 30"

We mark our informal firing line across the opening like underlining the Omega character, this gives us a closed canyon area where we have almost 180 degrees of fire. The door would be up about 11 o'clock and a golfers laser range finder put the door at 1180ft. Myself and a good friend could thump that door 6/6 all day long with cast lead - he used a 357 Ruger Blackhawk while I was using a Virginian Dragoon in 44mag. These are both single action pistols with outstanding triggers, but just using the factory iron sights.

But this was back in the 80's when I was in my prime, but I can still keep most of a magazine on a paper plate @ 250yrds with my Desert Eagle when there is no wind and I use a good 2 hand grip. My DE is how I get my once fired 44mag factory brass. :)

[Hickory]

500 yards is my personal goal. Anything more is just gravy.

Keep practicing. You may reach that goal in another 10-12 years.

[ErnieBishop]

:bigsmyl2:
Time will tell.
I believe this is very doable.
Cant succeed unless you are willing to fail trying.

[williamwaco]

Not standing. From the bench, prone or seated using a field rest.

I have never tried this but I can do 4 to six inches at 100 yards depending on the bullet and the wind.
I would estimate 150 to 200 yards would be the limit for a 10" group.

You didn't ask but I think I could stretch this about 50% with a long barrel .44 mag.

[BCgunworks]

I have never tried this but I can do 4 to six inches at 100 yards depending on the bullet and the wind.
I would estimate 150 to 200 yards would be the limit for a 10" group.

You didn't ask but I think I could stretch this about 50% with a long barrel .44 mag.

That's the part people seem to misunderstand. And it's easy to see why.
One would assume more powder and bullet weight flatter shooting.

Now since we don't have real good bc data that's proven for lead bullets I'll have to pull data from Sierra.

Both are their match bullets and are the best ones to look at.

#8350 357 170 fmj match has a bc of .285 running 900-1300 fps. Standard speed for a longer barreled 357.

The #8615 250 44 fmj match only has a bc of .230 at 900-1200fps

And the #8605 220 44 fmj match at 900-1100 only has a bc of .200

For the most part 357 bullets are longer and give you a better bc.

[375supermag]

Hi...

I can consistently hit a 10-12" steel gong at my gun club with my iron-sighted S&W 686 Silhouette model with an 8-3/8" barrel.

4-5 hits out of a cylinderful from a rested position is quite doable, on a good day with nearly 60 year old eyes with bifocals.

I use 158 and 180 gr Hornady HP/XTPs with near-max charges of H110/W296. The 125gr Hornady offerings are not as accurate at that range, at least in my revolver.

I can do the same with my Dan Wesson .44Mag on a good day, but it seems those days occur less often than with the Smith.
I could probably make that happen more often if I could get more practice time. The gun is capable of it.

And, no...I can not do it from a field shooting position. I need to have a rest and plenty of time.
In the field, 50 yards is as far as I will try a shot on any game animal.

[warboar_21]

I haven't done it for several years but my friends and I set up a bunch of gallon jugs from 50 to 150. I hit 6 out of 6 at 150 using factory 158gr pmc ammo

[ErnieBishop]

Thanks guys!
Keep it coming.

[Combat Diver]

I used to have no problem hitting a 10" plate at 100yds standing with my .357 Coonan back in the late 80s. My longest handgunning has been with the 9x19mm out of a Beretta M9 at 300m in Iraq few years ago (target was a Larue Iron Maidian ie 1/2 shilouette)

[leftiye]

Was a guy shootin' balloons recently with a 9mm FWIW. At 1000 yds!

[leftiye]

Miculek comes to mind.

[Davidk]

The guns themselves can be amazingly accurate. Longer barrels help!

[44man]

Sights and scopes will run out of adjustment to be sure so once so far, it is a hold over game. I hit steel at 500 meters with my 45-70 BFR by aiming at a tree branch about 26' over steel. My heavy 330 gr from my .44 drops 35" at 200 yards with a 75 yard setting.
Don't run scope adjustments to limits, not good for the scope.

[bedbugbilly]

Interesting thread. No criticism or bad things intended . . . but it really would be interesting to know the age of you fellows. I know there are a lot of good shooters out there . . . . and oh, to be young again and have good eyesight! I really do admire those who can shoot at distances like that - I know it's a case of a lot of practice but it also takes good eyes and good muscle control. My hat is off to you fellows!

[Hickok]

I have never tried this but I can do 4 to six inches at 100 yards depending on the bullet and the wind.

I agree with you William, as my results duplicate yours, using a S&W 686 with a 6" barrel, and Keith 170 gr SWC, off sandbags.

[BCgunworks]

118310

Working out the drop is all that's left.

100 yards. Center to center hits. Sub 1/2"

357 mag. Shooting off a bog gear tri pod

[ErnieBishop]

Oh yes. That was cool for sure!
But I am not looking for a hit on a big piece of steel, rather sustained accuracy. 6-shot group, not a 1-shot hit.

Was a guy shootin' balloons recently with a 9mm FWIW. At 1000 yds!

[44man]

I got out of sorts with over 1" at 100 and have shot hundreds of groups at that distance to 1/2" with out of box revolvers.
But it is true, I am not doing as good now, I am almost 77 and shake more with poor vision.
My loss is not knowing what I now know back then.
It is how to load and that makes my friends shoot much better then I can now. They all use what I do and do shoot better then me now. I am in the memory position now. Yes, we get old!

[williamwaco]

That's the part people seem to misunderstand. And it's easy to see why.
One would assume more powder and bullet weight flatter shooting.

Now since we don't have real good bc data that's proven for lead bullets I'll have to pull data from Sierra.

Both are their match bullets and are the best ones to look at.

#8350 357 170 fmj match has a bc of .285 running 900-1300 fps. Standard speed for a longer barreled 357.

The #8615 250 44 fmj match only has a bc of .230 at 900-1200fps

And the #8605 220 44 fmj match at 900-1100 only has a bc of .200

For the most part 357 bullets are longer and give you a better bc.


Yogi Berra said "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is."

Your observation as absolutely correct but I can still shoot better at long range with the .44.

PS: I know a guy who used to shoot long range silhouette matches and win many of them.
He swears that the .41 Mag has the highest BC, less drop, and more knockdown at long range than any other handgun.

( I don't know. I have never seen him shoot but I have seen his Trophies and his awards photos.)

[ErnieBishop]

Appreciate the heads up on the scope adjustments. A good number of folks would not have known that.
A little bio with me and distance shooting which most here would not know.
I am very used to shooting at distance with scopes. Usually I am shooting single-shot specialty pistols (mainly MOA Maximum's and rear-grip and center-grip XP-100's.) I compete in LR tactical matches with my XP's against rifles (5" triangles & 10" square steel out to 1K with bonus targets being further) in roving field courses, with targets at unknown distances, plus I shoot in 1000 yard BR matches with my XP's against rifles from time to time as well. Then comes pd shooting. Longest pd kill with a XP is 1590 yards and 1800 yards respectively.
I am new to shooting distance with a revolvers, but I am not new to revolver shooting or hunting.
I am pretty pumped over this whole project, and to see what I can actually do or not do.

Sights and scopes will run out of adjustment to be sure so once so far, it is a hold over game. I hit steel at 500 meters with my 45-70 BFR by aiming at a tree branch about 26' over steel. My heavy 330 gr from my .44 drops 35" at 200 yards with a 75 yard setting.
Don't run scope adjustments to limits, not good for the scope.

[ErnieBishop]

I will be 54 sooner than later:mrgreen:

Interesting thread. No criticism or bad things intended . . . but it really would be interesting to know the age of you fellows. I know there are a lot of good shooters out there . . . . and oh, to be young again and have good eyesight! I really do admire those who can shoot at distances like that - I know it's a case of a lot of practice but it also takes good eyes and good muscle control. My hat is off to you fellows!

[ErnieBishop]

I won't be using holdovers, but rather dialing and or using the reticle in conjunction with dialing.
As far as BC goes, it is what it is. Proof comes from the actual drops, not the ballistic software.
And atmospheric changes will change the original data/drops.
The chrono & software just gets you started.

[Artful]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ3XwizTqDw

[ErnieBishop]

And?
Jerry is the real deal and simply amazing, but I am not trying for a off-hand shot or a hit.
Looking for group shooting at distance from field positions (prone and seated) and from the bench.
It does make me think I need to increase my goal from 500 yards (6 shot group on either 10" or 12" steel), to further, but everyone needs a starting point

[wbrco]

6 shots from a revolver, 10 inch group, iron sights, standing? Mebbe 40 yards. I always cowboy shoot. I never actually shoot that far. I really don't know if I could even hit a soda can at 100 with any of 6 shots.
Thank God! I was having a serious confidence moment.

I practice for 6 in the black on a B-16 target at 25 yards standing with iron sights on my NMBH 7". With consistent practice I could do 40-50 yards. I'd feel confident shooting a whitetail at 50 yards sitting or from a rest in the blind.

From a rest/prone with optics makes a big difference in how some here are answering the question.

[ErnieBishop]

From a rest/prone with optics makes a big difference in how some here are answering the question.

Agreed!
I am learning how most guys shot a 357 Revolver. I have also noticed from several different forums there used to be a quite a few guys competing in ISHMA as well.

[dubber123]

If you venture into cast, look at the RCBS 180 Sil boolit. Very pointy, gas check, and my copy casts at 198 grains. It has consistently been one of the most accurate boolits I have shot. The fellow I mentioned that gets 200 meter groups in the 2" range has informed me he recently switched to it as it is a accurate as his old boolit, but has a higher BC and shoots a bit flatter. I'd load those to as fast as your gun will shoot them well and give it a try. Good luck.

[leftiye]

And?
Jerry is the real deal and simply amazing, but I am not trying for a off-hand shot or a hit.
Looking for group shooting at distance from field positions (prone and seated) and from the bench.
It does make me think I need to increase my goal from 500 yards (6 shot group on either 10" or 12" steel), to further, but everyone needs a starting point

The OP question was - how far can I shoot a .357? Answer is point it up in the air at about 30 degrees, and figure out somehow where it hits the ground (water?). Accurately? Well, jerry can hit a baloon at 1000 yards. Effectively, that depends on how accurate you can shoot, and what you want to kill. If you want to shoot for group, and perhaps shoot 5 hundred yards, well, that's your choice, and you're welcome to it. All are valid.

[osteodoc08]

How far can you see?

Game animals like deer I impose a personal limit of 100 yards with optimum shot.

[BCgunworks]

Op question was in reference to paper and steel. Not game.

Limitations on game depend on a lot of factors. But this thread wasn't intended to go there

[44man]

I use a scope on my BPCR to work loads and the 45-70 has a tremendous drop. I made the base from Weaver stock and cut it on a taper so the front of the scope is lower. Works like a charm and I don't run out of adjustments now.
You could do that to a revolver or pistol base.

[ErnieBishop]

Currently, I plan to use the Burris Signature Zee Rings, as I can add up to 40 MOA through the rings if needed with the 1" rings.

[ErnieBishop]

A long ways with a scope:mrgreen:

How far can you see?

[44man]

Currently, I plan to use the Burris Signature Zee Rings, as I can add up to 40 MOA through the rings if needed with the 1" rings.
Sounds good to me.

[bobthenailer]

Lets See ! A good 357 mag revolver & load using a scope or a red dot sight with at least a avg shooter ability, fired from the bench should be able to hit a 10" to 12" steel target at to at least 200 yards or farther just about every time , once there dialed in at that range.

[ErnieBishop]

How much MOA do you end up getting with your base set-up?

I use a scope on my BPCR to work loads and the 45-70 has a tremendous drop. I made the base from Weaver stock and cut it on a taper so the front of the scope is lower. Works like a charm and I don't run out of adjustments now.
You could do that to a revolver or pistol base.

[44man]

How much MOA do you end up getting with your base set-up?
Never measured but have scope settings to 500 meters now. I was running out at 200 with a straight base. I never measured how much taper either on the base. Eyeball only.
Like my cherries I make for my molds, nothing on paper. File the ogive and meplat, plunge a GG and say, "looks good."
Me and math are so far apart, don't even ask. I really don't know what the hell I am doing most times.

[ErnieBishop]

:drinks:
Sounds good

[jhalcott]

Many years ago a bunch of us sillywet shooters would practice/play at ranges that we would never hunt at. Several had 38 revolvers and loaded for them. We'd shoot at clay pigeons and drink bottles at 200 and 300 yards. Not many BULLETS will let you go that far (300 yds) accurately! It is surprising how far the slow bullets CAN go accurately. Of course , this is on a CALM day! One of the guys shot in a storm drain near his home to negate wind factors. He found the height of the drain to be a big factor in how far he could shoot before the bullets hit the top on the way to the targets. It was a 4' by 6' drain.

[44man]

I had a 30-30 model 94 here that shoots good but needed the rear sight moved .019" to center. I used a formula but just how do you move a sight .019"? i used pencil marks but it was hit and miss.
How do you move a sight in a dovetail .019"? Best to try and adjust as needed

[Beerd]

............. One of the guys shot in a storm drain near his home to negate wind factors. ...........

Bet that was kinda loud.
..

[ErnieBishop]

Many years ago a bunch of us sillywet shooters would practice/play at ranges that we would never hunt at. Several had 38 revolvers and loaded for them. We'd shoot at clay pigeons and drink bottles at 200 and 300 yards. Not many BULLETS will let you go that far (300 yds) accurately! It is surprising how far the slow bullets CAN go accurately. Of course , this is on a CALM day! One of the guys shot in a storm drain near his home to negate wind factors. He found the height of the drain to be a big factor in how far he could shoot before the bullets hit the top on the way to the targets. It was a 4' by 6' drain.

bullet stabilization is my main concern in this project.

[MtGun44]

1000 yds with good groups has been documented in the American Rifleman by some
shooters in Colorado with a Contender. Not the same as a revolver, but it does
show what is possible.

Bill

[ErnieBishop]

Are you talking about the article about Don Bower.
Had a quote something like this, "Shooting so far and groups so tight that not even his grandmother would believe him?" And the guy doing the article apologized because he thought Don was a fraud and had basically went out there to prove him wrong?

1000 yds with good groups has been documented in the American Rifleman by some
shooters in Colorado with a Contender. Not the same as a revolver, but it does
show what is possible.

Bill

[44man]

Guys have come here to prove me wrong too. Seems once you are stable, boolits will go very far.
It is not a game for those that get 12" at 50 yards. That stuff will not tighten as range increases.
This is not like over spin with a rifle where the rifle can group better after the bullet goes to sleep. This is a revolver that needs to be stable at the start. Even 4" at 100 is not enough for 500 meters.
It can be done even with a .38 or nine. It is not YOU, it is what the gun and load can do, but you still must be able to shoot. You can't steer a boolit so if you spray and pray at 25, don't tell me you can hit at 1000. Pock marks in dirt do not count.
Jerry is like Bob Munden, knew the loads and guns but shoots enough to see where to hold. If you watched Bob shoot you would see his hands were black from powder. It took more work and shots then we can afford.
We are lucky to have Jerry and the loss of Bob deserves a prayer from all of you.

[ErnieBishop]

I am not concerned whether folks try to doubt what I do in terms of shooting.
That doubt just simply inspires me even more in whatever project I am attempting[smilie=w:
My distance shooting over the years has been done around a lot of folks in practice, various comps, and in teaching others.
I intend to video this as well.
I don't pretend to be a Bob or a Jerry.
I am not going to be attempting this from the off-hand position.
I am not trying to "hit a target," but rather shooting sustained groups at distance.
I have no problem shooting good at what would be considered close, mid-range, or at distance with a variety of weapons.
I am not going to be holding over for my distance shooting with a revolver-Why waste ammo needlessly?
I was shooting sub MOA at 100 yards shooting from the seated positions using the HD-3 Bog-Gear trip-pod and their PSR top.

I am learning (or at least I think I am) that handgun bullet once it is stable from the muzzle stays stable even through transonic and subsonic.
Will be doing some reduced load testing to confirm this soon.
Guessing a 170 grain Sierra Tournament Master at 1400-1500 fps MV.
At 1500 fps MV with a 100 yard zero, my impact velocity is 937 fps at 500 yards with 50 MOA of drop, and 891fps at 600 yards with 65 MOA of drop.
If I am not consistently shooting MOA or under at 100 yards, there is no sense even trying.
Since the two Franken-Ruger's I shoot several weeks ago both shot sub MOA @ 100 yards, I am real confident mine will too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTfh6OKvIgk
My first time to shoot the 8" Franken Ruger was to zero it at 50 yards on paper.
We then set up an 8" piece of round soft steel at 100.
Not knowing where it would hit, I aimed a little high on the first shot.
Saw steel move, but couldn't see the hit.
Then I raised my point of aim and fired four more, seeing where it was hitting.
I could not bring myself to shoot the last round as the group was so good. This was shooting from a camp chair and Bog-Gear.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j4/xphunter_2006/657EEABB-D30E-4930-978C-BDD405654126_zpss8gwdxl2.jpg (http://s76.photobucket.com/user/xphunter_2006/media/657EEABB-D30E-4930-978C-BDD405654126_zpss8gwdxl2.jpg.html)

[williamwaco]

I could not bring myself to shoot the last round as the group was so good.





Don'tcha just love it when that happens?:bigsmyl2:

[rlb]

That's the kind of shooting I would expect out of you. This will be a really interesting project for you. I hope it all comes together and works out. I bet you get to 500 or better.

keep us informed.

[MtGun44]

Yes, I believe that they went out to disprove the stories, and wound up
verifying them.

Bill

[ErnieBishop]

Don sadly has passed from this life, but he was a friend. I do miss him
He was shooting his Super Bower or 30 Alaskan cartridges.
These were not straight-walled cases but Ackley Improved cartridges with a rim for use in the Contender, based off of the 44 Marlin and hte 307 Winchester.
Burris optics came out with their 10x IER scope because of Don.
Him and his brother John definitely plowed some LR ground back in the day with specialty pistols.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/5326Ernie_shooting_contenders.jpg

Yes, I believe that they went out to disprove the stories, and wound up
verifying them.

Bill

[44man]

Some great shooting shown! But we will see stability counts and even a WFN will shoot astounding distances.
I agree with Ernie, my off hand shooting suffers BIG TIME now. Groups like that are 1000 yard shooters, nice job.
But the scope might not reach adjustment out there and what let me hit were trees in the back ground so I could pick a branch. No trees and it is tough. I would look at a tapered base to allow adjustment.
The posts that always bothered me were those that say a FN goes unstable. It is always the twist rate/velocity even if the FN drops more.
Now Ernie, how about cast boolits?

[ErnieBishop]

I have 2 different guys sending me some cast bullets, for shooting at distance:mrgreen:
Remember, I don't even have my Franken Ruger yet.

[dubber123]

I have 2 different guys sending me some cast bullets, for shooting at distance:mrgreen:
Remember, I don't even have my Franken Ruger yet.

Let me know if any are sending you some of the RCBS 180 Sil's. Also let me know what your cylinder throats measure, I am sure your gunsmith will be making sure they are all uniform.

[BCgunworks]

Bullets sized to 358 will work in his cylinder. I know the gunsmith

[dubber123]

Bullets sized to 358 will work in his cylinder. I know the gunsmith

I bet you do.. I have a fair pile of .38"s and .357's, and .358" works well in all but one.

[BCgunworks]

The biggest issue with lead is the fact we don't have a true bc calculated for any of the bullets.

Most of these bullet companies send their stuff out to an independent lab/tester to come up with their bc.

Confirming drops isn't a big deal. But getting wind calls down it would help to have the data.

[BCgunworks]

And yes I am aware that you can use several different online calculators to get a somewhat close bc for lead bullets

[country gent]

The load is important it has to be accurate and perform well. Also as important is finding the correct elevation changes and reading correcting for wind and changes. Some of the early long range testing done with 45-70s used a target 6-8 ft tall and 3 times as wide. Learning wind is a big plus as is finding the "come ups for long ranges. With accurate information 50 yd velocity and 200 yd velocity BC can be figured with most ballistic programs making it possible to get a close idea of come ups and wind corrections from the ballistic program. Long range is a true combination of firearm, shooter, load, and experience. Also dont always expect a load that perform close to continue to perform at extended ranges, I have seen rifle loads perform at 200 and fail at 600, and loads that perform at 600 fail at 1000. Elevation above/below sea level weather conditions light temperature will also have an effect.

[BCgunworks]

Thanks for the long range 101

[ErnieBishop]

Thanks for the info.
I am familiar with LR & ELR shooting and hunting.


The load is important it has to be accurate and perform well. Also as important is finding the correct elevation changes and reading correcting for wind and changes. Some of the early long range testing done with 45-70s used a target 6-8 ft tall and 3 times as wide. Learning wind is a big plus as is finding the "come ups for long ranges. With accurate information 50 yd velocity and 200 yd velocity BC can be figured with most ballistic programs making it possible to get a close idea of come ups and wind corrections from the ballistic program. Long range is a true combination of firearm, shooter, load, and experience. Also dont always expect a load that perform close to continue to perform at extended ranges, I have seen rifle loads perform at 200 and fail at 600, and loads that perform at 600 fail at 1000. Elevation above/below sea level weather conditions light temperature will also have an effect.

[GP100man]

I killed a deer at 88 measured yds. & shoot at a truck rim across the field 225 yds & hit it occasionally, hit it more often 30 years ago, BUT it`s still BIG fun !!!

Effective range now , with open sites 50-70 yds 5 0ut of 6 on a 8" plate

But still LOVE it ,if not more !!!

GP

[ErnieBishop]

Having fun is what it is about

[44man]

Light is funny. I made a test long ago by clamping a scope on a bench, zeroed at 200 in the early morning. I looked through it every 15 minutes and the cross hairs went far left, then up and soon across the top of the target to come back down on the far right and as the sun set, it went back to center. The cross hairs followed the sun because the target was no longer where it was seen.
Do long range stuff quickly before the sun moves much or you will shoot where there is no target.
BPCR shooters first on the line shoot better scores then those later in the afternoon even though sighters are taken. By the time the last ram is shot at, the sun has moved and so has the target picture. 1000 yards has unreal movement. Time will change your sight settings. Mirage will move a target picture big time too. It is NOT where you see it.

[ErnieBishop]

Wow guys....how many of you guys that are posting on this actually shoot 1000 yards and beyond, not counting 1000 yard benchrest or F-Class?

[BCgunworks]

None.

[M-Tecs]

None.

I shoot 1,000 yard BPCR, Palma (800, 900 & 1,000) and Highpower long range at a 1,000. I have played out to about 1,200 just for fun. I have shot 1,000 yard F class and Benchrest but I don't care for it. I much prefer in position from a sling via NRA Highpower with iron sights.

Some others on this forum go out to a mile and some have commented on shooting at the Billy Dixon match. http://www.gunblast.com/AndyTuttle_FOBD.htm

[country gent]

I competed for years in NRA High Power matches ( service rifle and later on match rifle) I was High master accross the coarse ( 200-600 yds) and long range (800, 900, and 1000 yds) both. I shot M1A most of the time and was switching to ARs when MS forced me to stop. I also had a bolt gun in 243 fast twist for long range with the heavy vld bullets. I no compete in BPCR with friends locally out to 500 yds with heavy cast lead bullets and black powder. Last match was 9 rams at 400 yds out of the 10.

[cbrick]

I could not bring myself to shoot the last round as the group was so good.

hehe . . . No kiddin. I've ruined many a fine group simply by shooting that fifth shot. :roll:

Your 10-12 inch group goal in post #1 is generous at best. You'll be shooting well beyond distances I've shot at before you get to 12" groups, the vast majority of my shooting has been done on a 200 meter range.

It's kind of amazing how low some posters in this thread set their sights, pun intended. What you are proposing with the 357m is very doable as you will soon discover.

As for your choice of bullets to each their own but as for me, I can't afford the handicap of shooting those ugly brown store bought bullets. I pour my own. I highly recommend your taking dubber123 up on his offer to send you some of the RCBS 180 silhouette bullets. In addition to a good BC for a revolver bullet you'll benefit greatly from it's 65% of bullet length as bearing surface. Whatever bullet you decide on make it a heavy for caliber bullet with H-110. With that combination much test firing for groups says the CCI 550 is the primer of choice.

Don't let the naysayers discourage you, it is very doable and great fun.

Rick

[ErnieBishop]

Trust me when I say, I am not discouraged.
I am not intimidated by distance.
I am primarily a field shooter.
I have shot groups, five shots at a thousand yard matches, under 4 inches with my specialty pistols. Yes, that was a good day with good conditions.
I have made connections on prairie dogs at over a mile with an xp-100.
I've killed big game over 1000 yards with my center grip XP 100.
I compete successfully and long-range field matches on 10 inch square & 5 inch triangles steel at unknown distances that will be over 1000 yards in those matches.
I don't use a rifle but one of my specialty handguns.
There are no sighter shots or pits
My biggest concern at this point is to confirm bullet stability with the barrel twist I am intending to use. And I have already pretty much ruled out that being a problem.
I am planning on shooting further than my original goal for sure.
I am excited about the whole project.

I am not really worried about many of the long-range issues that are being mentioned as making this goal of mine difficult.
I am not going to be attempting this goal in difficult conditions.

[cbrick]

I am not going to be attempting this goal in difficult conditions.

Now I did wonder about that . . . Is it ever not windy in NE Wyoming? :mrgreen:

Rick

[ErnieBishop]

Why do you think Wyoming starts with a "W?":mrgreen:
Like many places winds tend to be down in early morning and late afternoon.
We are not as windy as Casper or some other towns.


Now I did wonder about that . . . Is it ever not windy in NE Wyoming? :mrgreen:

Rick

[dubber123]

As a side note, the added velocity of cast over jacketed at the same pressure might help you a bit. I've never personally shot past 200 meters with a handgun, but I'm guessing retained velocity at long range will factor in.

[ErnieBishop]

That would be helpful as
long as I keep my accuracy

[Plastikosmd]

I shoot my silhouette fa between 100-200. Generally 180-200 great boots w check, bench and open sight.
I run close to Mr taffin's loads, maybe 10% less (200gr at 1500fps) http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt353.htm
It shoots quite well, working on new powder/ boolit combo now

[ErnieBishop]

Thanks for the information. My biggest question is, are any of your loads with CB's grouping 6-shot at a inch or under at 100 yards that have good speed? MOA or sub MOA is what I am looking for @ 100 yards, combined with the speed and BC for distance shooting.

[44MAG#1]

ErnieBishop

I went through the posts to this thread but failed to understand what the purpose of this exercise is. If course it is none of my business, but, I am curious since you seem more of a single shot man. Also with your reputation on another site it would seem that you would already have the answers to your questions. But, maybe your world is SS handguns and have never studied revolvers which I would find hard to fathom in my shallow mind.
Also why not try it with a stock revolver just for the giggles of it?
I am sure you could locate one, if you don't already have one, and have a go at it now.
Also why a 357? Why not a 44 Mag or a 41 Mag stock revolver?
To me, what a stock 44 or 41 Mag would do is highly interesting.
In other words, something most of us would own and tote instead of something few owns and much less carry.

[ErnieBishop]

44MAG#1,
That is a fair and relevant question.
Here is the history or evolution of this project. A year ago I never imagined I would be wanting to shoot a revolver at distance.
My questions here are really not about shooting technique or issues with LR shooting, with the exception of bullet stabilization.
I was curious to see what was the status quo, and what some others were doing at distance-I really had no idea.
If it were a specialty pistol with a bottleneck cartridge or a rifle, there would be no questions.
Even though I have a 586 6" S&W, a 7.5 SRH 44 Mag, and an old S&W 44 Special, I just haven't been shooting them much, and I have never tried benching them for 100 yard accuracy.
Enter in WY-SHOT. This is a steel competition and prairie dog shoot for handguns only that I started last June. This is how I got connected with Chris Rhodes of Bayside Custom Gunworks. He helped a lot with the shoot-Even provided the T-shirts for free to everyone. He stayed at my house during WY-SHOT. A friendship ensued. I have unsuccessfully tried to get him to build me a XP, but he is really into semi's and revolvers. I am not sure when he actually came up with the Franken Ruger concept, but when he brought it up it really intrigued me. Then things worked out to go to Bang's and then we begin to make plans to do intentional testing of his FR (a customer at the last minute let us use his and that made 2-FR's) and a custom line of ammo Extremunition. I have used his bottleneck loadings (223, 260 Rem & 308), but never Frank's straight-wall loadings. A gunsmith here that I work with had come up with a new caliber (.296) and built one in a XP for me, so testing with it was added to the hunt. Chris can explain why he started with the 357 Mag versus the 41 mag or the 44 or the 45LC. He does do the FR conversion to the Redhawk so you 41, 44, and 45 guys have at it.
He does not convert the SRH. I am going to sell my SRH to get a RH, and then I would be able to do something with a 44 or something like that.
The FR appeals to me because of the shroud/free-floated barrel that lets me use field rests of different kinds without changing POI.
My heart is in field shooting.
And the accuracy-Have I mentioned, how much stellar accuracy trips my trigger?:mrgreen:
Don't be surprised to see me using a bi-pod on a revolver (connected to the shroud).
Do I see a bigger bore/cartridge in my future with a FR conversion?
Yes. I am excited about revolvers for the first time in my life, and now I want to push things.
For distance itself (grouping and steel) the 357 will have better BC's and lower recoil compared to his bigger brothers, which should make LR shooting with a revolver more possible.
I am a accuracy nut, and I didn't expect to shoot small groups with a Ruger revolver off of Bog-Gear.
Twist rates and handgun bullets are just weird to me, and how to accurately load for a revolver is new to me. Never really done it before.
What could be done with a factory revolver? I don't know. But I was never motivated to spend the time or effort to try that.
I hope I answered your questions.
Using cast bullets is another whole world of ignorance for me, except I know if it has a gas check I can run it as hard as a jacketed.
I have a couple of guys who are going to be sending me some bullets they believe to be suitable for LR shooting and another who is willing to tailor make some. I told him, I don't even know what to ask for:confused: right now until I get my FR.
I can shoot traditional handguns fine, but great accuracy in them with distance in mind is new to me.
I am on a learning curve and loving it.
The most accurate revolver I have shot before this was my FA Field Grade 7.5" 454 Casull.
Once I got acceptable accuracy for 150 yard killing, I only used it for hunting.

[Plastikosmd]

My grouping is 5 shots as the 353 is based on the model 83. I own 5 of these and they are wonderful. As far as my groups, I am shooting at or just under 1" scoped at 100 even in 22lr. I am not doing that with open sights yet but getting close. It is not the machine but the man with these 83's
This was just the 22's a week ago or 2, can't rem when I posted. Open was 50, scope was 100. Not my best by far, just average
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j5/plastikosmd/freedom%20arms/IMG_20140906_092628_681_zps9x7nopg5.jpg

[cbrick]

Ernie, some here may not understand but I sure do. For many years revolver accuracy was my motivation for shooting. Learned some things along the way. As a silhouette shooter my main goal was 200 yard accuracy and the range I did my shooting was 200 yards. One of the goals was not just the 200 meter rams but the shoot-off targets used to break ties during the match. If you had a revolver accurate enough to take the full size targets during the match but not accurate enough to reliably take shoot-off targets at 200 meters that could fit in the palm of your hand you weren't going to win anything.

Many of the silhouette handguns are mind boggling in their accuracy, not just revolvers. Every year at the Central Coast Range in California they host a combined rifle/handgun competition on the rifle silhouette range. Rifle silhouette is shot to 500 meters. A rifle has yet to win that match.

Here's a few tips on loading cast in your 357 once you get it:

Size the bullets to a mild snug fit in the throats where sized bullets can be placed in the throats and not fall through but can be lightly tapped out with a pencil. You want a bullet long enough that a chambered round has the full front driving band seated inside the throat. If your smith building this gun is as good as you make him sound your revolver will have very uniform throats that match groove diameter.

Size your bullets nose first in a straight thru sizer, not an in & out sizer. It does make a difference in concentricity and you certainly want concentricity.

Accept no bullets with anything less than a perfect base. Covering up a defect on the base with a gas check or lube simply means you can't see the defect but it is still there. Make 110% sure the gas checks are installed perfectly flat against the bullet base and completely square to the bullet. To make sure my checks go on that way I size them before installing them.

My FA revolver shoots best with my alloy convection oven heat treated to 18 BHN at over what is current book loads. The RCBS 180 at 188 gr at 1550 fps. Your revolver with your alloy will need testing to determine what it likes best, like all handloading your revolver knows what it likes and will tell you when you find it.

There's more, brass prep etc. but I think first we need to make you a bullet caster, something that can be a passion itself but with Wyoming winter nights you need something to keep you interested right?

Good luck with your project and please keep us informed about it.

Rick

[jmort]

"Every year at the Central Coast Range in California they host a combined rifle/handgun competition on the rifle silhouette range. Rifle silhouette is shot to 500 meters. A rifle has yet to win that match."

I would have thought the opposite would be true. Amazing to me at least.

[cbrick]

Every year at the Central Coast Range in California they host a combined rifle/handgun competition on the rifle silhouette range. Rifle silhouette is shot to 500 meters. A rifle has yet to win that match. Rick


I would have thought the opposite would be true. Amazing to me at least.

That's true though.

There is a reason for it aside from the accuracy of the silhouette handguns. The rules of the match say that rifles will be shot using shooting positions legal in the rifle silhouette rule book. Handguns will be shot using shooting positions legal in the handgun silhouette rule book. That means rifles are fired off-hand and the handguns are fired from Creedmoor. Still, the handguns must not only hit but also take down the 55 pound ram at 500 meters and they do. Very well in fact.

Rick

[ErnieBishop]

Not getting into casting:mrgreen:

There's more, brass prep etc. but I think first we need to make you a bullet caster, something that can be a passion itself but with Wyoming winter nights you need something to keep you interested right? Rick

[cbrick]

Not getting into casting:mrgreen:

hehe . . . Wanna bet? [smilie=s:

Just wait until you see what you can do with cast in a revolver. It's in your future. :mrgreen:

Once you get and try the RCBS 180 silhouette boolit you'll have two choices, cast or buy them. When you start casting NOE makes an excellent copy of this bullet or of course the RCBS two cavity. To buy them the commercial caster "LeadHeads" makes a pretty good bullet for commercial cast and offers this bullet.

Rick

[Dan Cash]

This is something that has been cooking for several weeks now.
How far can you shoot a 357 Magnum Revolver (not a singleshot), use all six cylinders, and still group 10-12 inches?
I'm talking about a group on a steel target.
What do you think?
Or even better what have you accomplished?

I think you mean all six chambers.

[ErnieBishop]

Yes, my bad

[ErnieBishop]

Does anyone else make up for larger chambers diameter compared to your dies, only resize enough of the case for the cases to still fit in?
I know of one guy that does this. Anyone else?
With bottleneck cases I always bump the shoulder about a thou, but I use a bushing neck to control seat tension (no crimping here), and sometimes I have a resize die made off of the reamer so there is a minimal working of the brass.
With good dies I minimize both neck and bullet run-out.
Are there any equivalents for straight wall case reloading?

[cbrick]

Yep, for straight wall I size down the length of the case only as far as the bullet seats into the case. Kinda makes a bottle neck out of it but the FA is pretty tight in the chambers so it's not a lot.

Rick

[ErnieBishop]

Could you see an accuracy difference, when you did this even in a tighter tolerance FA?


Yep, for straight wall I size down the length of the case only as far as the bullet seats into the case. Kinda makes a bottle neck out of it but the FA is pretty tight in the chambers so it's not a lot.

Rick

[44MAG#1]

Ernie,

Would you you go over the specs on this "handgun" you are having built? Please?
What would be interesting would be to take a stock 357 and the testing first and then do testing after you get it customized.
Using the same "care" in loading etc. that you would with the custom gun. It would take longer but would be interesting.
Then after getting the very best load shooting maybe 3 six shot groups and getting an average for the groups rather than just relying on a single 6 shot group to be mesmerized over.
That would be more realistic to me.

[cbrick]

I never did side by side accuracy testing of the principal but logic would dictate that the more centered and inline with the center line of the bore the better, proper fitting front driving bands in the throat and the rear of the case fitting as well as possible. I am also a believer that confidence in your equipment is worth a lot at a championship match.

Rick

[ErnieBishop]

I'm not going to have Bayside Custom Gunworks send the stock GP back to me, just to shoot it, and then compare.
I can see how it would be interesting, but I am not going to use time and money to do that.
When I buy a rifle or a XP-100 for a custom set up, I never shoot them first to see how they shoot-You could say that this is my typical way of doing things (Not saying it is the best, just the way I do it).
Both of the protoype FR's shot a inch or less @ 100 yards with several people, and I shot more than a couple of cylinder fulls
20T Green Mountain barrel (May consider a Douglas later IF a faster twist is required).
Chris Rhodes would be the one to explain what he is doing.
I am not a machinist or a gunsmith, I just shoot them:mrgreen:
I get your point on a wallet group.
What I do do with this FR after I get it done, will be far more than 100 yard groups from a bench, but also shooting at distance from field shooting positions for group at distance.
The FR really wasn't designed to be a BR revolver, although I think it would work nicely for that.
It's intent is for field shooting/hunting from a variety of positions with a resting point forward of the receiver that will not change POI.
If you have read my stuff before, you already know I am not interested in a once in a lifetime group, but sustained accuracy.
Plus, I was using off the shelf ammo, and I had not fired or even touched either revolver until I got there.


Ernie,
Would you you go over the specs on this "handgun" you are having built? Please?
What would be interesting would be to take a stock 357 and the testing first and then do testing after you get it customized.
Using the same "care" in loading etc. that you would with the custom gun. It would take longer but would be interesting.
Then after getting the very best load shooting maybe 3 six shot groups and getting an average for the groups rather than just relying on a single 6 shot group to be mesmerized over.
That would be more realistic to me.

[williamwaco]

Yep, for straight wall I size down the length of the case only as far as the bullet seats into the case. Kinda makes a bottle neck out of it but the FA is pretty tight in the chambers so it's not a lot.

Rick

How about accuracy? Did it help?

I have never tested this but this past summer I did a test with the .38 Special with factory wad cutter cases not sized at all. Average of 10, 6 shot groups showed no difference in accuracy.

( Obviously this would not be a suitable way to load for any normal use since the bullets were loose enough to be pulled easily with pliers. )

[dubber123]

It would be of benefit to only neck size, to help keep the body of the cartridge centered, but I see a problem with the variances in the factory machining tolerances. You may get lucky enough to have one consistently chambered that any cartridge will fit any chamber, but I doubt it. I have a fair pile of revolvers, and you can eject 6 empties, and attempt to rechamber them, and they will only fit in certain chambers. I have a custom 50-70 Contender, blessed with a large chamber that I only neck size in, and it surely makes a difference, but I can get away with this due to the single shot platform.

It's worth experimenting with, and is one of many variables that will keep you interested for a while trying to attain maximum long range accuracy. I predict you will appreciate your single shots much more before you are done. :)

[pkie44]

Six chambers likely a bit different, mark each chamber, segregate the brass, mark the brass, index the brass in each chamber. I'm not likely to do all that.:mrgreen: Start with a bullet with a snug fit in the throat, throat big enough for the bullet to fit grooves even if it's sized down a bit passing thru the throat. Might have to go with cast!:mrgreen:

[44MAG#1]

Ernie,
I am old, slow and not too bright but I get what this exercise is all about now.
Sorry I bothered you.

[cbrick]

Start with a bullet with a snug fit in the throat, throat big enough for the bullet to fit grooves even if it's sized down a bit passing thru the throat.

Poor practice for long range accuracy. You want the bullet to fit the throats correctly and the same fit into the bore. The least you molest the bullet the better. None of that silly bumping up, obturating, squeezing back down stuff. What you load into the case is what fits the throats and is what fits the groove diameter and is what comes out the muzzle. The only change to the bullet is rifling engraving.

In addition, with a heavy for caliber bullet if it doesn't fit the throats you won't be able to chamber the rounds. The only alternative would be to really deep seat the bullets costing valuable powder capacity and then ruining possible accuracy by squeezing the bullet too small and then expecting it to still fill the groove diameter and then still be accurate.

Rick

[dtknowles]

I am not sure how to take "revolvers that consistently shoot one inch or under at 100 yards with stock ammo". Amazed, incredulous, dumb founded, unbelievable, awesome. It is truly mind blowing. Not sure I can really believe it until I see it for myself. I know I couldn't do it even if I had such a revolver. If this is being done with cast bullet you sure are putting a bunch of CBA members to shame.

Tim

[cbrick]

I am not sure how to take "revolvers that consistently shoot one inch or under at 100 yards with stock ammo". Amazed, incredulous, dumb founded, unbelievable, awesome. It is truly mind blowing. Not sure I can really believe it until I see it for myself. I know I couldn't do it even if I had such a revolver. If this is being done with cast bullet you sure are putting a bunch of CBA members to shame. Tim

I can't speak to factory ammo, I can't even speak about them ugly brown overpriced store bought bullets but here is a 5 shot cast group, scoped from the bench FA 41 mag, stock except for the scope and a trigger job. The turkey target is at 150 meters, the target size is 4.5 inches from the top of the leg to the edge of the back.

118965

This was a friend's FA, he handed it to me and said give it back when you make it shoot like yours. I worked up this load using 414 Super Mag brass, N-110 and cast though not mine. I used Lead Heads bullets to avoid my going into the casting business keeping him supplied.

Rick

[cbrick]

BTW Tim, 150 meters is 164 yards. :mrgreen:

Rick

[dtknowles]

I can't speak to factory ammo, I can't even speak about them ugly brown overpriced store bought bullets but here is a 5 shot cast group, scoped from the bench FA 41 mag, stock except for the scope and a trigger job. The turkey target is at 150 meters, the target size is 4.5 inches from the top of the leg to the edge of the back.

118965

This was a friend's FA, he handed it to me and said give it back when you make it shoot like yours. I worked up this load using 414 Super Mag brass, N-110 and cast though not mine. I used Lead Heads bullets to avoid my going into the casting business keeping him supplied.

Rick

Rick

That is nice. All these FA and FR's seem to shoot incredibly small groups, I can't wait to see a few done in person. Never seen a FA or FR revolver. Nobody at the range seems to shoot much better than me. I have not been to the pistol line for many months, working cast bullet loads a couple of my rifles. They don't shoot under an inch either. You can call it sour grapes or envy. I will wait until I see it to believe it.

Tim

[BCgunworks]

Well eliminate half the fuss by using Sierra match bullets.

All the chambers will be corrected and uniformed as much as possible.

Both guns were set up so close to one another they basically shot the same at 50 and 100 yards.

But using jacketed eliminates all the casting fuss. Not that cast can't do it but were setting up to go for the extreme. No sense in making it harder than it already is.

I'm sure Ernie will try some cast. But it's doubtful they will do better than the very high bc and very uniform Sierra 170 match.

We had two of the Fraken rugers down in sc. Different barrel lengths. Different barrels, different brakes. Different generations of gp100. One started as a new 2014 gun. The other was a 1990s gun.

There are many witnesses to the groupings. And none of the people including Ernie bishop have any thing to gain from my shop.

At the moment I am reworking the gen one fr (grey gun) to a gen 2. It's a mock up of what Ernie's gun will be.

The shroud on the first couple was pretty much just roughed out to make it work. The new one has more angles and such to break up the slab sides. Trying to make it look better but looks are not the focus.

Shrouds have been extended to about 5 3/4" to allow it to have more distance between the front and rear support on bog gear or bags.

Hogue big butt grips will be used to give a better contact point for the rear.

Both will have different brakes on them. Mine will be a round brake. Ernie will be running a holland.

Barrels will be under 13".

I think the 10" had a good balance and could still be easily shot off hand. The barrels are of a light contour.

The just under 13" barrel is to give us more velocity but still be under the standard tc contender lengths.
That's the new shroud in the pic. Still has to be de burred and finished.

118977

[cbrick]

Casting BS?

I'll put forth the proposition that done correctly your revolver results will be BETTER with cast. Of course the throats must ALL exactly match the groove diameter. The cylinder timing must be precise for ALL chambers. If that can't be done perhaps cast would be BS.

Casting BS? Really? Heck of a thing to say on site dedicated to that BS!

Rick

[jules]

118979118980

[cbrick]

Calm yourself. Step back from you ninja keyboard skills

Calm myself? :roll: Ninja key board? Got any more good one liners?

The only real question I guess is why post any of this on a forum dedicated to the BS? :groner: What responses did you expect if not BS? (BS = The new name for boolits)

Rick

[jmort]

This is perplexing.

[jules]

It's not for everyone but FR2 is fun to shoot. I have not tried any cast yet but I will soon. It's loud but super accurate.:Fire:

[ErnieBishop]

I'm sure others had the same questions as you-no problem on my side.

Ernie,
I am old, slow and not too bright but I get what this exercise is all about now.
Sorry I bothered you.

[ErnieBishop]

Tim,
Admittedly, I was pretty surprised myself.
It was just "wrong" for a Ruger revolver (Sorry Ruger fans:shock:) to shoot that good, especially from Bog-Gear.
I just don't equate Ruger and precision accuracy in the same phrase. At least I didn't in the past.
The only other guy that shot the Franken-Ruger when I was at Bang's Paradise Hunt club besides Chris (he shot very little) was a guy named Frank Glover who live about 1.5 hours away from Bang's. He was doubtful as well until he shot the 10" FR @ 100 yards.
If you want to make your way up to NE Wyoming, once I get mine rolling, you would sure be welcome to shoot it.
I am seriously thinking about using some more of the off the shelf Extremunition ammo that Frank Bliss makes for gun stores/shops to see if it could be done with say the 180 XTP ammo.
I will other do the shooting at Mac's Gunworks south of Gillette or at Frank's place which is North of Gillette.
Frank has a lot of steel permanently set-up as his ranch is the location for the WTRC (Wyoming Tactical Rifle Championship).

I have some guys sending me some cast bullets to use, but I will first be trying it with jacketed ammo.

This is will be a first time endeavor for distance with a revolver, for me anyway.
I have never grouped a revolver beyond 200 yards.



I am not sure how to take "revolvers that consistently shoot one inch or under at 100 yards with stock ammo". Amazed, incredulous, dumb founded, unbelievable, awesome. It is truly mind blowing. Not sure I can really believe it until I see it for myself. I know I couldn't do it even if I had such a revolver. If this is being done with cast bullet you sure are putting a bunch of CBA members to shame.
Tim

[ErnieBishop]

Really nice shooting!


I can't speak to factory ammo, I can't even speak about them ugly brown overpriced store bought bullets but here is a 5 shot cast group, scoped from the bench FA 41 mag, stock except for the scope and a trigger job. The turkey target is at 150 meters, the target size is 4.5 inches from the top of the leg to the edge of the back.

118965

This was a friend's FA, he handed it to me and said give it back when you make it shoot like yours. I worked up this load using 414 Super Mag brass, N-110 and cast though not mine. I used Lead Heads bullets to avoid my going into the casting business keeping him supplied.

Rick

[ErnieBishop]

I welcome all Thomas':mrgreen:


You can call it sour grapes or envy. I will wait until I see it to believe it.
Tim

[ErnieBishop]

I am a "Thomas" in the area that a cast bullet will equal or out perform in terms of accuracy at close range and at distance.
I am more than willing to prove myself wrong in this area.
Do I think that I can shoot 6 rounds using CB's at 500 yards at 10 inches or under?
I think so, but until I do it with any kind of bullet it is just speculation.
At the same time, shooting is shooting. I believe this to be doable goal in good conditions.



I'll put forth the proposition that done correctly your revolver results will be BETTER with cast. Of course the throats must ALL exactly match the groove diameter. The cylinder timing must be precise for ALL chambers. If that can't be done perhaps cast would be BS.
Rick

[ErnieBishop]

I sort of wanted to take the revolver home with me!:mrgreen:


118979118980

[dtknowles]

I am pretty sure even if I had a revolver that could shoot an inch at 100 yards, I could not. I just don't have enough practice shooting revolvers off a bench or pistols off a bench either. Once I get my handguns sighted in on the bench I shoot some more targets offhand and dial the sights or scope in offhand as that is how I expect to shoot them. The recoil response is different offhand so the point of impact changes. I have not been practicing much with my handguns lately as once a week range time limits things and I am working on cast bullet rifle loads lately. My opinion of 1 inch at 100 yards and handguns matters little, I am no expert.

Tim

[ErnieBishop]

Tim,
You don't have to be an expert to have a great time.
The lack POI issues is why I like the FR concept so much.
The way I will shoot prone, from the bench or off of Bog-Gear is the same in terms of grip.
One hand hold, with the off-hand running a small rear bag under the grip, which is also the typical way I shoot my SP's.


I am pretty sure even if I had a revolver that could shoot an inch at 100 yards, I could not. I just don't have enough practice shooting revolvers off a bench or pistols off a bench either. Once I get my handguns sighted in on the bench I shoot some more targets offhand and dial the sights or scope in offhand as that is how I expect to shoot them. The recoil response is different offhand so the point of impact changes. I have not been practicing much with my handguns lately as once a week range time limits things and I am working on cast bullet rifle loads lately. My opinion of 1 inch at 100 yards and handguns matters little, I am no expert.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Tim,
You don't have to be an expert to have a great time.
The lack POI issues is why I like the FR concept so much.
The way I will shoot prone, from the bench or off of Bog-Gear is the same in terms of grip.
One hand hold, with the off-hand running a small rear bag under the grip, which is also the typical way I shoot my SP's.

Again, I am no expert but I disagree about no POI changes going from the bench to offhand. On the bench my arms are much more relaxed but offhand my arms are holding up the gun, sometimes a very heavy gun. Never shot a handgun prone or from a pod. Not looking for new fun. I have a hard enough time staying proficient at the courses of fire I currently practice.

Tim

[ErnieBishop]

Again, I am no expert but I disagree about no POI changes going from the bench to offhand. On the bench my arms are much more relaxed but offhand my arms are holding up the gun, sometimes a very heavy gun. Never shot a handgun prone or from a pod. Not looking for new fun. I have a hard enough time staying proficient at the courses of fire I currently practice.

Tim
cant comment on offhand.
Havnt tried it yet with the FR

[44MAG#1]

"Admittedly, I was pretty surprised myself.
It was just "wrong" for a Ruger revolver (Sorry Ruger fans:shock:) to shoot that good, especially from Bog-Gear.
I just don't equate Ruger and precision accuracy in the same phrase. At least I didn't in the past."

Just to keep this grounded this exercise has nothing to do with what a stock
Ruger will do.
McGivern has, in his book, targets shot with the then unmodeled M27 out to 500 yards using nothing but custom sights on some. Using just an everyday load too.
That is the reason I mentioned testing the stock Ruger first then test the custom.
That was shot down and I understand that.
BUT, let's keep this well grounded regardless of the bullet he uses.

[ErnieBishop]

There is no pretense here of using a stock revolver.
No intention here of trying to match or beat anything.
Part of the reason for this thread was to find out what was both common and exceptional.
The way I determined my goal was the belief that I should be able to shoot 1 MOA or better (Of course at times worse than that) at 100 yards.
Trying to be realistic when adding distance to the equation, I doubled my MOA to 2 MOA (approximately 10") for 500 yards.

[44MAG#1]

"I just don't equate Ruger and precision accuracy in the same phrase. At least I didn't in the past."

Well maybe you didn't mean the pretense but it could be taken that way. I don't know.
It still is interesting. Although I don't know what it has to do with information that would pertain to the majority that owns "stock" Rugers.
I am still interested in the results.
Oh yes, why the muzzle brake since it isn't like you are fighting horrendous recoil?
The 357 is really quite a pip squeak in the recoil department in that gun.

[Grizzly Adams]

I have not tried a 357 mag. beyond 200yds but seeing the level of accuracy the Frankin Ruger is capable of, my opinion is that wind and optics will be your limiting factor not distance. You have to see it to hit it consistently.
You have me wanting to go shoot long range again and I thank you for that. Good luck with your endeavor

[ErnieBishop]

The pretense I was referring to is that I would never try to say I used a stock/untouched handgun for this goal, like McGivern did.
As I have said, I have not been using revolver's in the past much. I did take a antelope and a mule deer 3 years ago with a FA 83 in 454 Casull, but other than that it has been over 15 years since I have shot a revolver much. If you want to know my feelings and why, here they are.

Here we go...Rugers have never been one of my choices for accurate rifles.
Accuracy is a debatable issue, and I accept that. Are they capable of Minute-of-whitetail? Most definitely.
So are they accurate enough for the majority of hunters? YES!
Besides hunting, I compete in several LR games and I hunt at distances some here will disapprove of.
To date, I have never seen a Ruger rifle (talking rifles here now) be competitive in these contests or be commonly used in LR hunting.
In pretty much all of my specialty pistols and rifles, I want the capability of 1/4 MOA or better @ 100 yards.
Not talking about a one-time wallet group.
Just because these are my expectations, doesn't mean they are right, but they are mine.
One reason why I really don't like the Savage Striker is because of its terrible trigger. I have owned two, and each of them were sold relatively soon.
I confess that I am a trigger and accuracy snob:!:
Good triggers and accuracy are precursors to being competitive at distance.
The only thing I complained about when shooting the FR's was the trigger pull.
I had to work harder to shoot good-I am spoiled with light triggers:mrgreen:
When Chris told me he was using the Ruger platform, my first questions was why a Ruger?
He simply explained that the lock up was stronger in the Ruger.
My response was, "Oh, Okay. I didn't know that." But it made sense why he was using the Ruger.

I don't really care what brand or model anyone uses to hunt or shoot with as long as they have fun and it makes them happy.

I was not a fan of Ruger revolvers in the past. After I left Bang's I was desperate to get one quickly.
Actually bid on three GP's on Gunbroker, and won two of them-HA!

My goal was never to try a group at distance with a stock revolver of any brand.
And the the goal I now have was never even in my mind until after several days with the FR's.
Once I realized the accuracy I was getting with it, I started wondering about how far can a revolver shoot a group accurately?

There is a correlation between minimal gun movement/light recoil that is easier to manage in both the short range BR game (100, 200, and 300 yards) and in mid and LR BR (600 and 1000 yards). In the mid and LR matches the 6 Dasher (and similar off-shoots) are extremely popular.
A good brake just makes the 357 even more of a puff-cake or you can just say I am recoil sensitive:mrgreen:


"I just don't equate Ruger and precision accuracy in the same phrase. At least I didn't in the past."

Well maybe you didn't mean the pretense but it could be taken that way. I don't know.
It still is interesting. Although I don't know what it has to do with information that would pertain to the majority that owns "stock" Rugers.
I am still interested in the results.
Oh yes, why the muzzle brake since it isn't like you are fighting horrendous recoil?
The 357 is really quite a pip squeak in the recoil department in that gun.

[ErnieBishop]

Wind has always been the Achilles Heel of LR shooting:veryconfu
It will drive you crazy sometimes. I am going to be waiting for good conditions when I try this.
With a sloped picatinny base, Burris Signature Zee Rings, the Burris 2-7 LER with the BP reticle, and a elevation target knob (can be zeroed). I will have plenty of adjustment for 500 yards with this set-up.
There is also a strong possibility of trying a rifle scope (another reason for a great muzzle brake).
Once I get my FR, I will have someone take some measurements or video me shooting to see how far back the gun is coming to see if a rifle scope is a possibility. I use large magnification rifle scopes on my XP-100's and MOA Maximum's, but am unsure if I can be safe with one on a revolver.

Good luck on your renewed LR shooting goals!


I have not tried a 357 mag. beyond 200yds but seeing the level of accuracy the Frankin Ruger is capable of, my opinion is that wind and optics will be your limiting factor not distance. You have to see it to hit it consistently.
You have me wanting to go shoot long range again and I thank you for that. Good luck with your endeavor

[44MAG#1]

Maybe someone with the access to the long range will be able to do a test with a stock revolver.
Both would be interesting.

[BCgunworks]

I have access right behind the shop.

To keep it simple without a lot of explanation. The stock gun will hit that far out. But target size will need to be larger.

The trigger on a stock gun will kill your ability to squeeze thru consistently with the precision needed for distance.

The shorter barrel also reduces velocity.

There are obviously several advantages worked into the Franken ruger design for field shooting which also help with the distance goal.

In the muzzle brake thing.
What happens after the hammer drops messes with your down range group just as much as what happens before the hammer drops.
The muzzle brake helps with this. In fact a muzzle brake can make this simple.

[pkie44]

cbrick, I'm not sure who you are arguing with? I went back and read my post again and saw no mention of, "None of that silly bumping up, obturating, squeezing back down stuff.", your words, not mine.

I did mention a snug fit, "In addition, with a heavy for caliber bullet if it doesn't fit the throats you won't be able to chamber the rounds." again your words. If they won't chamber, they do not fit.

[BCgunworks]

You guys just quit arguing. There is nothing to argue about.
There are no experts at what we trying to do.

[cbrick]

cbrick, I'm not sure who you are arguing with? I went back and read my post again and saw no mention of, "None of that silly bumping up, obturating, squeezing back down stuff.", your words, not mine.

I did mention a snug fit, "In addition, with a heavy for caliber bullet if it doesn't fit the throats you won't be able to chamber the rounds." again your words. If they won't chamber, they do not fit.

?? I wasn't arguing with anyone. The only exception I've had with this thread is the calling cast bullets BS. You probably got confused with a post I made to another post that seems to have been deleted by the poster.

Rick

[Grizzly Adams]

Wind has always been the Achilles Heel of LR shooting:veryconfu
It will drive you crazy sometimes. I am going to be waiting for good conditions when I try this.
With a sloped picatinny base, Burris Signature Zee Rings, the Burris 2-7 LER with the BP reticle, and a elevation target knob (can be zeroed). I will have plenty of adjustment for 500 yards with this set-up.
There is also a strong possibility of trying a rifle scope (another reason for a great muzzle brake).
Once I get my FR, I will have someone take some measurements or video me shooting to see how far back the gun is coming to see if a rifle scope is a possibility. I use large magnification rifle scopes on my XP-100's and MOA Maximum's, but am unsure if I can be safe with one on a revolver.

Good luck on your renewed LR shooting goals!




Thanks you answered my next question before I even asked, whether you were using LER or rifle scope. I'm just making a WAG, but I think you'll be around 800 yes before you hit your wall, if you use a rifle scope. Just my uneducated opinion. Good luck, I'll be watching.

[ErnieBishop]

The 2-7 LER has 64 IPHY (close to 64 MOA total adjustment). Figure 32 MOA each way. Put in a 25 MOA slope or through the rings, and I get approx 57 MOA, plus the useable MOA in the reticle itself which is 10.5 MOA at the plex post tip if I remember correctly.
So I will have a little more than 65 MOA between the reticle and the internal adjustments.
IF I get both accuracy at 1500 fps, and IF the multiple BC from Sierra (170 grain Tournament Master) is correct that will take me to 600 yards with a 100 yard zero.
If I wanted to have a 200 or 300 yard zero, I could easily add more MOA through the rings and be able to shoot further.
The rifle scopes I am considering are several.
One I have on hand is a Leupold VX-3 4.5-14 (CDS turrets) with a 40mm obj. Has a total of 113 MOA. If I put a total of 50 MOA through both my pic rail and rings that gives over 110 MOA. Plus, I have 30 MOA in my reticle (Holland MOA ART reticle).
140 MOA altogether.
144.75 MOA for 1K. These drops are in no way confirmed, but it does give a ballpark idea.
It is always fun to play at further distances or at least to have the capability to do so:mrgreen:

[44MAG#1]

I guess I am just a dummy to a large extent. Here we have basically a single shot handgun guy now wanting a revolver made into a platform that really has very little to do with an easily pack able revolver now with the idea of putting a rifle scope on it with mounts that few if any would use on a revolver and seeking to satisfy a desire to answer a question on 357 Mag accuracy in a "revolver".
One could probably mount a revolver on a 500 pound piece of I beam with a 5 pound 14 inch Match barrel after experimenting with several custom twist rates with a 36 power scope with a wind flag every 10'yards and produce even better accuracy.
To each his own.
I will not post anything else concerning this, but will keep tabs on the thread, to see the results whatever they really indicate, for whatever this launch platform really is, concerning what a 357 Mag revolver will actually do, for the majority of the shooters whomever they may be, that own stock 357 Mag revolvers.

[BCgunworks]

I guess I am just a dummy to a large extent. Here we have basically a single shot handgun guy now wanting a revolver made into a platform that really has very little to do with an easily pack able revolver now with the idea of putting a rifle scope on it with mounts that few if any would use on a revolver and seeking to satisfy a desire to answer a question on 357 Mag accuracy in a "revolver".
One could probably mount a revolver on a 500 pound piece of I beam with a 5 pound 14 inch Match barrel after experimenting with several custom twist rates with a 36 power scope with a wind flag every 10'yards and produce even better accuracy.
To each his own.
I will not post anything else concerning this, but will keep tabs on the thread, to see the results whatever they really indicate, for whatever this launch platform really is, concerning what a 357 Mag revolver will actually do, for the majority of the shooters whomever they may be, that own stock 357 Mag revolvers.

Why are you so hung up with it being a stock wheel gun?

no one is doing this to show you what your guns capable of.

The goal was to push to the max if the 357 magnum. Not the max of a factory gun.

It takes special optics to be able to hit that far out. Would I use a rifle scope....I dobt it but whatever works.

Special mounts. Heck yes. You need all the Moa you can get. We're not doing hold high and miss high ****.

I machine custom mounts for lots of specialty handguns and pistols. From 22lr being shot to 1/4 mile to crazy bottle neck hand cannons.

You have a desire to see what a factory gun will do. I have over 70 untouched minus trigger work factory wheel guns. Your welcome to try them on the range here and see what you can do. Then you can achieve your own goal.

"Not pack able". Your right. This longer one is not. Don't know about you but I don't need a holster when I'm hunting. I intend to use the gun. I'm not playing quick draw with deer.
It will fit in one of the scoped tc holsters or scoped super red hawk holsters. The nylon ones that is.
Or you could just stick it in your pack if you need both hands free. If you need both hands free you can't shoot anyways.

[ErnieBishop]

I doubt if you are dumb.
Cool thing about a picatinny base is I can mount a reflex sight, dot sight, fixed or variable LER scope, or even a RIFLE SCOPE:shock:
Kind of versatile in my book.
I wouldn't have called my old 7.5 Field Grade FA 454 a "hip rig" for that matter with either a 2x or 4x Leupy on it.
I won't have any trouble packing my FR around. I actually packed a XP and a FR with me at the same time in SC.
My future FR will be in a Bianchi chest rig, in my hand or in my pack when hunting.
Not the quick draw and shoot kind of hunter.
If you want to carry around 505 pounds of steel on you to go hunting, that is fine with me, but I want pics!:mrgreen:

There was never any intention of determining what a factory revolver can do at distance of any brand or model.

But you know what, if a guy that does not shoot revolvers much compared to a lot of folks here can shoot accurately from field positions with a customized Ruger (AKA - Franken-Ruger) at further distances, no telling what some of you guys could accomplish.



I guess I am just a dummy to a large extent. Here we have basically a single shot handgun guy now wanting a revolver made into a platform that really has very little to do with an easily pack able revolver now with the idea of putting a rifle scope on it with mounts that few if any would use on a revolver and seeking to satisfy a desire to answer a question on 357 Mag accuracy in a "revolver".
One could probably mount a revolver on a 500 pound piece of I beam with a 5 pound 14 inch Match barrel after experimenting with several custom twist rates with a 36 power scope with a wind flag every 10'yards and produce even better accuracy.
To each his own.
I will not post anything else concerning this, but will keep tabs on the thread, to see the results whatever they really indicate, for whatever this launch platform really is, concerning what a 357 Mag revolver will actually do, for the majority of the shooters whomever they may be, that own stock 357 Mag revolvers.

[ErnieBishop]

The 4.5-14's ART Reticle.
Functional for distance because the MOA is actually listed on the reticle (no need to count lines any more).
Still not sure if I can safely use this though on the FR.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j4/xphunter_2006/IMG_7184.jpg (http://s76.photobucket.com/user/xphunter_2006/media/IMG_7184.jpg.html)

[BCgunworks]

119041

By all means dont under estimate the 357.

Friend of mine in Africa. 92meters. 4" wheel gun. 357 magnum. 180 fmj.

One of many animals.

[dubber123]

Ernie, one note of caution if you use a rifle scope, make extra sure you have very close fitting safety glasses on. If you shoot a wheel gun enough, sooner or later you are going to catch a piece of something in the face from the barrel/cylinder gap, I don't care how tight that gap is. Using a rifle scope puts your face that much closer. You may be surprised at just how much blast comes from there too with your face closer.

[BCgunworks]

Ernie isn't pretty. A few scares won't hurt him.

[ErnieBishop]

Appreciate that. I wear either prescription shooting glasses if using a LER or regular shooting glasses if using a rifle scope.
Hadn't thought of the blast itself, rather the scope coming my way-Eek!
If it was a SP I would know what to expect.
The Ruger will be lighter weight and with a lower pressure cartridge, the brake will not be as effective.
Tentative or cautious is the word, when thinking riflescope. There is another variable which maxs at 10x, that I might be able to use that should give me around 6.25 eye relief at 10x. That one may not be a possibility, but more fudge room than the Leupold that I have on hand.

[cbrick]

Here's a Burris LER 3X12 I use on the FA at 12X.

119075

While looking for that picture I ran across this one and thought you might enjoy it.

119076

Custom built XP 6.5 BR. This shoots the hair off a gnat's hieny at 200 meters.

Rick

[ErnieBishop]

Always like a nice XP!
the 3-12 LER is a good scope.
I used to use a number of them.
I would be picking one up for this project if it had more internal adjustment

[BCgunworks]

I'm cursed/blessed with eagle eyes.

Makes it hard to get glass. It's difficult to find one that will focus the cross hairs crisp.

My vision is great for irons. Scopes are a battle.

I'll be running a 2-7 Burris on mine for my own goals with the fr

[ErnieBishop]

Did the old Burris seven power LER fixed scope have a Parallex adjustment?

[BCgunworks]

Dunno

[cbrick]

Did the old Burris seven power LER fixed scope have a Parallex adjustment?

Dunno either.

I currently have two of the 3X12's, the one in the pic with the FA and another with target turrets.

The FA if I remember correctly has Leupold rings and an FA mount.

The XP in the picture sits on a mid mount by Ken Light. He also makes high rise mounts that are milled lower in the front so the scope adjustment range is 50 to 200 meters.

Rick

[ErnieBishop]

Rick,
A little OT here since you have a XP.
Going to take out a 15 year old today with a couple of XP's (6.5-284 and 284 Winchester). He has never shot beyond 200 yards before.
That is going to change today. Can't wait to see the smile on his face when he connects the first time on 10" steel at 400 and 500 yards.
Intend to take him out to 700-800 yards if the conditions are consistent.

Dunno either.

I currently have two of the 3X12's, the one in the pic with the FA and another with target turrets.

The FA if I remember correctly has Leupold rings and an FA mount.

The XP in the picture sits on a mid mount by Ken Light. He also makes high rise mounts that are milled lower in the front so the scope adjustment range is 50 to 200 meters.

Rick

[Dave C.]

How far? How hard can you pull the trigger?

Dave C.

[ErnieBishop]

Well, now I know the secret

How far? How hard can you pull the trigger?

Dave C.

[ErnieBishop]

Great Day! Been loading, coaching, spotting, and a little shooting with two sets of Father/Sons. They were all very successful at distance. Everyone connected at a grand with either the 7mm SAUM center-grip XP, or the 6.5x47 Lapua rifle with the Burris E-3 scope.
Some fell in love with the 6.5x47L/E-3, others grew very fond of the 7 SAUM.
Some with both, and Michael (15 year old) shot my F-TR rifle in 308 Win with the Joy-Pod. The suppressed Ruger 22/45 was a real hit too.

Having said that, I kept thinking about 500 yards with a revolver for group off and on through the afternoon. Small target and a way out there.
As we approached evening the conditions got real nice and Chuck brought out a custom 6mm Creedmoor and had a handful of people connecting at 1450 with an IPSC size steel target-Conditions are so important!

[dubber123]

Sounds like a great day out, and you likely hooked a few new long range shooters :)

[pkie44]

Sounds like lots of fun!

[cbrick]

Sounds like lots of fun!

Yep, it does and it's so important to get kids out shooting and teach them safe handling, marksmanship and sportsmanship. Good job Ernie.

Rick

[ErnieBishop]

The adult son had never shot beyond 300 yards and the 15-year-old son had never shot beyond 200 yards before yesterday.
Smiles were definitely Kodak moments.

[BCgunworks]

119244

I'll take better pictures later

[BCgunworks]

119247119248119249Added a few angles to break up the large flat on the shroud....

[cbrick]

First thing I noticed in the first picture is something guaranteed to be a big aid in precision shooting.

Grips large enough to properly fit the shooters hand. Priceless!

119250

For those contemplating precision long range revolver forget them silly single action grips. Yep, they are purdy but ask yourself if you want to look good or shoot good.

My FA's wear Pachs, could be better choices but they fit my large hand very well. I would love to get some nice wood made for them, just never have. Yet! My New Model Blackhawk in 30 Carbine while not a long range revolver is a good example. Sitting there on the bench d*mn those grips are ugly, in my hand looking down range they are the best looking grips I own.

Quality proper fitting grips allowing consistency and follow through. Yep, priceless!

Rick

[BCgunworks]

I dont think I can say what I am feeling any better than the post I made on FaceBook.....I just got done with this thing....and the loads are not even tailored to this one.....

"I have put together a lot of custom wheel guns but I dunno what to say about this new Franken ruger. Good god it makes a rifle look bad. I just zeroed at 100 yards. And then went to 150 making head shots on 1/3 scale uspsa steel targets. Those heads are 2"x2". That's just stupid for a revolver to do that.
I'll post pics and groups another day. Weather is not the best here today of we would be doing some real distance."

[BCgunworks]

Now Remember I am not the long range shooter. That's Ernie.

I'm shooting off boggear. First time grouping the new set up at 150 yards. My scope went down and is on the way back to the manufacturer so I'm running a loaner. Just using some loads were in the shop. Not tailored to this gun. 140 xtp over blue dot.

I was shooting off boggear just like I would in the field if I was in a stationary blind or ground set up. Using a small rear bag. Fairly stable but the psr rest on the bog gear does swing horizontally under recoil for me anyways.

First round was my sighter shot. It's the high one. Other 5 are in the mass at the bottom. It's 3 1/4" not counting the sighter. Plates 8".

I think the horizontal nature of the group is mainly the psr rest.

And once again. Distance is Ernie's game not mine119341

119342

[ErnieBishop]

2 MOA (barely more than) is pretty excellent off of Bog-Gear at 150 yards!
You will likely end up reaching my goal before I get mine[smilie=w:

[BCgunworks]

Did a little shooting with the fr today. 125 yards. 158 xtp.


Kept pulling one shot....I called it...and all I wanted was the wallet group :((:



http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff460/bcgunworks/imagejpg2_zps532d338c.jpg (http://s1236.photobucket.com/user/bcgunworks/media/imagejpg2_zps532d338c.jpg.html)


http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff460/bcgunworks/imagejpg1_zps60a07dfd.jpg (http://s1236.photobucket.com/user/bcgunworks/media/imagejpg1_zps60a07dfd.jpg.html)

[ErnieBishop]

I know all of us can shoot 357 Mag a really long ways and hit our target every time IF our target is dirt:veryconfu
My 357 Mag FR should be ready in a couple of weeks time.
Never tried this before with a revolver, but this is what I am going to attempt.
It may be a royal flop, but if I fail, I fail.
With one cylinder full/6-shots, one-shot per target in 50 yard increments: 100, 150, 200, 250, 300, and 350 on 10" steel. Some of it might be on 5" steel at the closer ranges. Want to be able to shoot the string relatively fast, but scope choices can make that either faster or slower. LER scope will be slower I think, while I will be able to adjust for distance faster with a riflescope.
Next, I want to put 6-shots downrange @ 500 yards with a group of 10" or under.
I wan to try this with off the shelf Extremunition ammo. This is the ammo that Chris and I used at Bang's Paradise Valley Hunt Club back in September. Guessing a 180 grain XTP.
Then I want to try a 6-shot group with the 170 grain Sierra Tournament Master bullets, also loaded by Extremuntion.
Plan to video this and take some good pics.
Of course, there will be a need to chrono loads and then get a ballistic drop chart, then actual proves the data with real world drops.
100 yard zero.
Time frame will depend on work schedules and the weather forecast.
I may actually hunt with my FR before I do my distance goal.

Now, is there anything you would like for me to realistically try?
Any suggestions on how this should be set-up?
Not promising I am going to try it, but I will consider it.
Thanks!

Thinking about using the wireless Bullseye camera system .

[cbrick]

Bullet drop may well be more than your anticipating. A 100 yard zero and shooting to 350 will be quite the hold over.

Heavy for caliber bullets are your friend, weight carries momentum & depending on BC will retain speed a bit better than a lighter bullet. See if this place also has available 200 gr.

The LER WILL slow target acquisition for your rapid fire and the higher the magnification the more so. It'll be interesting to see if the combination of your barrel length and break will allow a rifle scope, use caution in finding out. Ya don't want to show up at work with a nasty cut over your eye and a large black eye. People will look at ya funny. :mrgreen:

Good luck & keep us posted.

Rick

[cbrick]

It may be a royal flop, but if I fail, I fail.

Oh yeah, about that. If ya fail ya do the same thing you've always done when things didn't go well, get up, dust yourself off, figure out what to try different and have at it. What you want to do is doable but like most things worth doing it'll probably take some effort and my best guess is that it won't happen right off the git go, for me if it did that would take the fun out of it.

Considering a quality firearm and a good load bullets are actually pretty stupid because they have no idea if they were fired from a rifle or a handgun. It's people that are awestruck and handicapped by thinking . . . it's a handgun. The only disadvantages are launch velocity and thus retained velocity/bullet drop. The bullet doesn't even know if you fired it to 50 yards or 500, it will obey the ballistics of launch velocity, spin rate, BC and where the muzzle was at the moment of free flight regardless of if it was fired from a rifle or handgun, it just doesn't know that. The only other handicap with the handgun would be sight radius, it is easier to get better sight alignment with a longer sight radius but your using a scope so . . .

Rick

[ErnieBishop]

Estimated drop in MOA with 170 Sierra TM: 100 yard zero
------------DROP -----DRIFT (10mph full value wind)
200 yards--9.5--------6.0
300--------21.25------8.25
400--------34.25------10.25
500--------49.25------12.0 Drop in inches is close to 260 inches with a 100 yard zero
First of all, NO holdovers. Holdovers at these distances are NOT accurate.
I will be dialing the MOA, using a reticle (multi-dash, for say every 1.5 MOA to 30 MOA), and then the combination of dialing off of part of the reticle. Like holding on the 21 MOA line and dialing 13.25 MOA for a 400 yard hit.

As far as using riflesscopes on handguns: http://www.handgunhunt.com/promo/membership/features/readNewArticle.php?oid=12&title=Rifle%20Scopes%20On%20Specialty%20Handguns

From my research I believe the 170 TM is the best combo of speed & BC. I may be wrong there.

If I use the ART reticle or the other riflescope reticle I will be able to go to 350 (50 yard increment goal) with just using the reticle-No dialing which will be pretty quick between shots.

[ErnieBishop]

Agreed! Most people's biggest limitations is the 6" between their ears. It is good to know you think that way.
Shooting is shooting.
Failure is simply the learning curve to success.

This is a very doable goal, or I wouldn't be trying it.
Longer distances are a real possibility, but I need a starting point that will stretch me some,


Oh yeah, about that. If ya fail ya do the same thing you've always done when things didn't go well, get up, dust yourself off, figure out what to try different and have at it. What you want to do is doable but like most things worth doing it'll probably take some effort and my best guess is that it won't happen right off the git go, for me if it did that would take the fun out of it.

Considering a quality firearm and a good load bullets are actually pretty stupid because they have no idea if they were fired from a rifle or a handgun. It's people that are awestruck and handicapped by thinking . . . it's a handgun. The only disadvantages are launch velocity and thus retained velocity/bullet drop. The bullet doesn't even know if you fired it to 50 yards or 500, it will obey the ballistics of launch velocity, spin rate, BC and where the muzzle was at the moment of free flight regardless of if it was fired from a rifle or handgun, it just doesn't know that. The only other handicap with the handgun would be sight radius, it is easier to get better sight alignment with a longer sight radius but your using a scope so . . .

Rick

[cbrick]

Thanks for that link, I scanned over it & will read it in detail later (today is a shooting day) but it looks to be a well informed author. :mrgreen:

About my recommendation of 200 gr bullets, I've never had a GP100 which I assume your revolver is built on so I don't know the cylinder length. I'm too stuck on FA's where the longer cylinder is a benefit for heavier bullets. Never having measured the GP100 cylinder another assumption is that it's shorter and a shorter cylinder will require deeper seating resulting in less powder capacity. Another interesting thing worth learning.

Rick

[dubber123]

I'll mention them again, but the RCBS 180 Sil casts about 198 grs. for me, has a very small meplat, and I wouldn't be surprised if you couldn't get as much or more velocity than you will with a 170 jacketed.

[ErnieBishop]

Appreciate that information:mrgreen:
I will be using jacketed first for sure.
It is what I have and what Frank/Extremunition loads/sells.
I will be doing the 500 yard group though in the future with CB's, as I have some guys sending me some to try.


I'll mention them again, but the RCBS 180 Sil casts about 198 grs. for me, has a very small meplat, and I wouldn't be surprised if you couldn't get as much or more velocity than you will with a 170 jacketed.

[tcbnick]

Off Subject But

Let me Introduce everyone to Mr. Ernie Bishop one of the best long range pistol shooters around. He has written articles about the subject and has a wealth of knowledge. His article on using rifle scopes on pistols is one of my favorites. Myself, I am glad to see him here. Welcome to castboolits.

Thanks Nick

[ErnieBishop]

Thanks Nick!

[cbrick]

Myself, I am glad to see him here. Welcome to castboolits. Thanks Nick

Diddo, I've enjoyed his posts and a few PM's with Ernie. Reading his article on the rifle scope on specialty pistols now. I gotta stop with the tips I've been dropping for him, I'm coming to realize he probably knows more about long range handgun than I do. :mrgreen:

Rick

[ErnieBishop]

Neat group of guys here for sure.
My FR could be finished by this weekend-I am very excited!

[ErnieBishop]

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j4/xphunter_2006/b9092ed7-de94-4687-9c00-e14bfacb6279_zps218e9dbd.jpg (http://s76.photobucket.com/user/xphunter_2006/media/b9092ed7-de94-4687-9c00-e14bfacb6279_zps218e9dbd.jpg.html)
Holland's MOA ART reticle. Not a great pic, but it does show how effective and easy it is to use a great reticle.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j4/xphunter_2006/IMG_7183.jpg (http://s76.photobucket.com/user/xphunter_2006/media/IMG_7183.jpg.html)

[ErnieBishop]

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j4/xphunter_2006/FRwithbase_zps198a03a8.jpg (http://s76.photobucket.com/user/xphunter_2006/media/FRwithbase_zps198a03a8.jpg.html)

[cbrick]

No fair teasing! On Friday he said he still had the scope mount to go so that has to be a pic he sent you.

If like me you have large hands it'll be interesting to see how well those grips fit your hands. You will find a marked difference in grip from the mid grip or even the rear grip XP's. If you've not a lot of experience with long range revolver you'll soon learn just how important a hand filling grip and a very consistent grip is.

Rick

[BCgunworks]

Had to take a break from gun work120913

Flint lock.

[ErnieBishop]

I used a grip like pictured and the standard GP grip with no problem.
Grip I plan to use

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j4/xphunter_2006/F735176F-F7E5-401D-BBF0-A234273D96BA_zpscl1axpsg.jpg (http://s76.photobucket.com/user/xphunter_2006/media/F735176F-F7E5-401D-BBF0-A234273D96BA_zpscl1axpsg.jpg.html)

[DougGuy]

You know, I never have tried shooting a .357 revolver, what do you hold it onto the backstop with tie wire? duct tape? I bet I could shoot one at 200yds with my .308 it has a really nice scope on it but with my old eyes, I'd have a hard time seeing it perched atop a fencepost after about 100yds... :bigsmyl2:

[44man]

Had to take a break from gun work120913

Flint lock.
Me too, .475 at 40 yards off hand. 120922

[BCgunworks]

120923

[ErnieBishop]

Feel free to send yours to me and I'll put it up at 500 yards.
I doubt if it will survive the day in the condition you sent it to me:mrgreen:


You know, I never have tried shooting a .357 revolver, what do you hold it onto the backstop with tie wire? duct tape? I bet I could shoot one at 200yds with my .308 it has a really nice scope on it but with my old eyes, I'd have a hard time seeing it perched atop a fencepost after about 100yds... :bigsmyl2:

[44man]

120923
Nice, good eating. I have to wait until the 24th now. I need five more deer because I give the ladies where I hunt two each a season and I need one more in my freezer. My daughter might also want one.
Can't pull a bow much now. A lot of season wasted now.
Had a friend up that can't hit a deer with anything. I told him to not shoot at a buck and do NOT get off stand, doe season. He made two quick shots at a spike, got down and ruined the hunt for the rest of us by walking around. He missed anyway. He spooked deer coming to me and my other friend.
When any of us shoots a deer we sit tight unless the deer is far from another hunter. OK to gut if you do not disturb anyone.
Where is Mathews, VA? I am near Harpers Ferry, WV. Town called Bakerton.

[ErnieBishop]

My FR should be in my possession in less than a week:guntootsmiley:

[dubber123]

My FR should be in my possession in less than a week:guntootsmiley:

Sweet! Laid in a supply of ammo yet?

[cbrick]

I thought you would have it by now. :veryconfu

Rick

[prsman23]

Will some one fill me in on the FR? Never heard of them. Enlighten me please!

[ErnieBishop]

Franken-Ruger conversion is done by Chris Rhodes of Bayside Custom Gunworks out of Matthews, VA.
It is a conversion to GP-100, 101, or Redhawk that connects a shroud to the front of the receiver that gives a shooter something similar to a mini-forend. Yet the barrel it self does not touch the shroud in any area. So, in essence you have a free floated barrel, and the ability now to have a solid two-point contact/rest when shooting from the bench or in the field.
Here is a short video of two of the prototypes being shot back in September.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTfh6OKvIgk

[cbrick]

And here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?252130-Franken-Ruger

Rick

[BCgunworks]

Well my Franken Ruger is ready to roll. Shot 50, 100, 150, 175, 225, 280, 300
1 shot hits. On bowling pins or 8" steel121228

[ErnieBishop]

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j4/xphunter_2006/28061CCC-ED12-4C03-BE38-7FC83493F04D_zpsml83de1o.jpg (http://s76.photobucket.com/user/xphunter_2006/media/28061CCC-ED12-4C03-BE38-7FC83493F04D_zpsml83de1o.jpg.html)
Here it is with my 2-7 Burris LER, and factory grips.

Below, with Leupold LR 4.5-14x40mm with ART Reticle, 30mm Burris Signature Zee Rings, Holland level, and Hogue grips.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j4/xphunter_2006/15inchFR_zpsdc1f5696.jpg (http://s76.photobucket.com/user/xphunter_2006/media/15inchFR_zpsdc1f5696.jpg.html)

[pkie44]

:popcorn::bigsmyl2:

[Groo]

Groo here
Much farther than most think or can hit with.
My longest is 300yds.

[dtknowles]

Maybe I am just silly but a revolver with a barrel more than 8 inches long just looks wrong.

Tim

[cbrick]

Maybe I am just silly but a revolver with a barrel more than 8 inches long just looks wrong. Tim

:mrgreen: I've shot so much long range to me my Ruger 7.5 inchers look like snubies.

Rick

[44MAG#1]

Good grief. Just plain ole good grief. Amazed and amused.

[dtknowles]

:mrgreen: I've shot so much long range to me my Ruger 7.5 inchers look like snubies.

Rick

My 8 inch Dan Wesson's really seem too long but at least on my Mod 15 I have a 4 and a 6 I can swap in.

I know that Long Range is sort of a game but some of the guns seem really contrived, like these Franken Rugers, why not just use a rifle. I have an Exemplar, it is cool and all, shoots great but calling it a pistol is almost a joke. It really is just a short rifle with not butt stock, It even has a rifle scope on it. It looks like the FR has rifle scopes a well.

In so many of the sports I have been interested in the comps all seem to turn into equipment races. Constant drive to more and more specialized equipment. Many do now have stock model comps, I guess that helps.

Tim

Tim

[ErnieBishop]

I will likely have the barrel shortened after the project.
Then, I will probably do it again with the shorter barrel:mrgreen:

[44MAG#1]

I am amazed, dazed, bewildered and confused and see comic genius in it.
I can see a Milt Sparks #200AW holster in the future for it.

[ErnieBishop]

Rifles get pretty boring at 500 yards.
Specialty pistols get pretty boring at 500 yards.
I will have the barrel shortened after this project.
And probably turn around and do it all over again with a 7 1/2 or eight or 10 inch barrel. :)
why? Because I want to.
Why a rifle scope? Because you need a lot of MOA to shoot long-range.
Because I can do it safely.
Because I want to. I don't know of anyone that used a high magnification rifle scope on a center fire revolver before.
It is fun to experiment with new things that is not done very often.
This is not a competition handgun.
It was designed for LR field shooting and hunting.
It was designed to do things that most revolvers don't do good.
It is not unwieldy holding it offhand.
I do not have my pistol scope set up the way I want it yet for a long-range shooting.




My 8 inch Dan Wesson's really seem too long but at least on my Mod 15 I have a 4 and a 6 I can swap in.

I know that Long Range is sort of a game but some of the guns seem really contrived, like these Franken Rugers, why not just use a rifle. I have an Exemplar, it is cool and all, shoots great but calling it a pistol is almost a joke. It really is just a short rifle with not butt stock, It even has a rifle scope on it. It looks like the FR has rifle scopes a well.

In so many of the sports I have been interested in the comps all seem to turn into equipment races. Constant drive to more and more specialized equipment. Many do now have stock model comps, I guess that helps.

Tim

Tim

[BCgunworks]

Nice to see all the closed minded people coming out.

If it doesn't fit your mould....must be pointless.

[paul h]

While I enjoy packing an iron sighted sixgun on my hip in a chest holster, I understand the enjoyment of shooting little groups with a revolver. I also know that a scoped revolver from a good rest will shoot to the mechanical ability of the revolver, few people can shoot to the mechanical ability of a revolver with iron sights.

I commend you on the project, you're having fun and pushing your limits. It's even put one gun project in the back of my mind for the future ;)

[44MAG#1]

Nice to see all the closed minded people coming out.

If it doesn't fit your mould....must be pointless.
Goes both ways wouldn't you say?
The monstrosity boys can be closed minded too.
Kinda like the Ford and Chevy boys .
Kinda like NASCAR boys.
Kinda like the tactical knife boys.
Kinda like the rare, medium rare and well done boys.
Why should "handgun" boys be different?

[ErnieBishop]

Wow, I didn't know I had to take sides:veryconfu
Does this mean I need to sell all of my little guns????
What about my in-between guns???:mrgreen:
I like all kinds of handguns!:guntootsmiley:

Goes both ways wouldn't you say?
The monstrosity boys can be closed minded too.
Kinda like the Ford and Chevy boys .
Kinda like NASCAR boys.
Kinda like the tactical knife boys.
Kinda like the rare, medium rare and well done boys.
Why should "handgun" boys be different?

[BCgunworks]

Wow, I didn't know I had to take sides:veryconfu
Does this mean I need to sell all of my little guns????
What about my in-between guns???:mrgreen:
I like all kinds of handguns!:guntootsmiley:

If you don't dislike the things other dislike you bad......

[Minerat]

Probably about 175 yards with my eyes. But why would you want to shoot a 357 revolver when pop cans are cheaper. OOOOOHHH you ment Shoot the revolver - not shoot, the revolver. It's been along day.:bigsmyl2:

[44MAG#1]

Wow, I didn't know I had to take sides:veryconfu
Does this mean I need to sell all of my little guns????
What about my in-between guns???:mrgreen:
I like all kinds of handguns!:guntootsmiley:






My heavens no. Just put an Ultra Dot on your 4 inch or 45/8's 357 and do the test too. Since "pushing the limits" is fun that would be really pushing.

[ErnieBishop]

Yea, I could have fixed/edited that, but you guys are having too much fun with my bad grammar:mrgreen:

Probably about 175 yards with my eyes. But why would you want to shoot a 357 revolver when pop cans are cheaper. OOOOOHHH you ment Shoot the revolver - not shoot, the revolver. It's been along day.:bigsmyl2:

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

With my 60+ year old eyes, my 4 5/8 inch Ruger Super Blackhawk with iron sights, sitting with my hands resting on my knees, 100 yards. If you drop the criteria down to 4 out of 6, it goes to maybe 150.

[ErnieBishop]

Keep up the good work! Keep on shooting.
Not sure what I could with iron sights.

With my 60+ year old eyes, my 4 5/8 inch Ruger Super Blackhawk with iron sights, sitting with my hands resting on my knees, 100 yards. If you drop the criteria down to 4 out of 6, it goes to maybe 150.

[BCgunworks]

Wow, I didn't know I had to take sides:veryconfu
Does this mean I need to sell all of my little guns????
What about my in-between guns???:mrgreen:
I like all kinds of handguns!:guntootsmiley:






My heavens no. Just put an Ultra Dot on your 4 inch or 45/8's 357 and do the test too. Since "pushing the limits" is fun that would be really pushing.

We had this discussion several weeks ago with you and I reckon you have forgotten it.

We are not doing this challenge to suit you. We did not set the goal to use or include a factory gun.

You are more than welcome to do your own distance challenge with your factory guns.

But once again.....this thread isn't about you.

Only accurate guns are interesting.

[cbrick]

Ok, ya got the gun so where's the groups? [smilie=1:

Rick

[ErnieBishop]

I'm a wimp. To cold for me to be shooting today. Our high today was 7 degrees.

Ok, ya got the gun so where's the groups? [smilie=1:

Rick

[ErnieBishop]

Power to ya brother.
I have my goals set.



My heavens no. Just put an Ultra Dot on your 4 inch or 45/8's 357 and do the test too. Since "pushing the limits" is fun that would be really pushing.

[dubber123]

Ok, ya got the gun so where's the groups? [smilie=1:

Rick

Worse than that, he's had it long enough to mount 2 different scopes, and change the grips.. :) I've stopped on the way home from the gunshop to try out a new gun.. Just sayin'

[cbrick]

I'm a wimp. To cold for me to be shooting today. Our high today was 7 degrees.

Excuses???? [smilie=1:

Rick

[cbrick]

Worse than that, he's had it long enough to mount 2 different scopes, and change the grips.. :) I've stopped on the way home from the gunshop to try out a new gun.. Just sayin'

Maybe it took most of the day to wipe the drool off it. [smilie=s:

Rick

[kir_kenix]

Cool project. Not really my thing, but I enjoy reading about it all the same. I had a buddy who used to come over and shoot "long range" with his .22lr. He would set up standard IDPA cardboard cut-outs all over my pasture and shoot from various positions and distances. I would spot for him sometimes. Would really piss him off when I would walk in some .357's out of my s&w 28. Using the corn rows as reference points, it wasn't too tough to get on target and ventilate cardboard out to 250 yards or so.

Never practiced enough to do it regularly (or even shoot groups). But it really wasn't nearly as hard as I thought it would be to put 2-4 shots on a man sized target once the elevation was worked out. I could see 10" group at 500 yards with GOOD loads, a GOOD gun, and a very STEADY shooting position. Doing it regularly would be another story. I will enjoy following your progress.

[ErnieBishop]

Good for you!
I am most definitely going to enjoy myself.
No way will it be repeatable in switchy wind conditions.
I am wanting to see the accuracy potential of the FR at distance.

Cool project. Not really my thing, but I enjoy reading about it all the same. I had a buddy who used to come over and shoot "long range" with his .22lr. He would set up standard IDPA cardboard cut-outs all over my pasture and shoot from various positions and distances. I would spot for him sometimes. Would really piss him off when I would walk in some .357's out of my s&w 28. Using the corn rows as reference points, it wasn't too tough to get on target and ventilate cardboard out to 250 yards or so.

[ErnieBishop]

Chris was already borrowing my old 2-7 LER, so it was on the Ruger when I got it.
I also bought some ammo for deer hunting yesterday...I am getting closer.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j4/xphunter_2006/38FF03C0-191C-4B59-995F-D7773407A47B_zpsip64wj7l.jpg (http://s76.photobucket.com/user/xphunter_2006/media/38FF03C0-191C-4B59-995F-D7773407A47B_zpsip64wj7l.jpg.html)
I changed out everything inside where it was warm:mrgreen:

Worse than that, he's had it long enough to mount 2 different scopes, and change the grips.. :) I've stopped on the way home from the gunshop to try out a new gun.. Just sayin'

[cbrick]

Uh Ernie, problem. Long Range? With That ammo? If their stated ballistics on the box is correct it is no where near even a Hodgdon published starting load much less as they state . . . Handloaded to maximum levels.

Rocky Mountain Ammo 180 Gr. Hornady
1100 fps
484 ft/lbs energy

Hodgdon starting load of H-110 and 180 gr. Nosler
1352 fps

Hodgdon doesn't list ft/lbs energy but that's easy enough to compute if you want to know.

My 357 match ammo
RCBS 180 gr @ 190 HT to 18 BHN
1536 fps 10 shot average
E.S. 26 fps
S.D. 8

Since you want to shoot 500 yards with this revolver I think you need to handload for it and forget that wimpy stuff. Starting out at 1100 fps just ain't gonna cut it.

Rick

[dubber123]

Maybe a 4" test barrel?

[BCgunworks]

His velocities were all from defensive sized wheel guns. Most of his boxes say 4"-6" barrel. For some reason this one doesn't. He uses 3 different guns and averages the data.

[cbrick]

Maybe a 4" test barrel?

More likely that since they sell commercial and have no idea what firearm they will be fired from and they have little choice but to play it safe. That's why recognized loading manuals have Ruger only loads. Some of the Colts, older Smith's etc. would be hand grenades with some of the top Ruger only loads. Another thing is that the ammo is billed as a defense round and I don't know at what velocity that bullet was designed to open up.

At any rate Ernie's load is pretty wimpy even for a protection round much less hunting or worse, long range. My 1911 45 ACP with a 5" barrel and heavier bullet isn't too much less energy than his 357 mag commercial loads. That's why we have handloading, so we can shoot what we need/want and not what someone else wants to give us.

Rick

[ErnieBishop]

Well, look at it this way.
Maybe, this will satisfy those that want a shorter barrel for the project.
Reduced MV with this factory load will be similar to a shorter barrel with handloads.

[dtknowles]

Nice to see all the closed minded people coming out.

If it doesn't fit your mould....must be pointless.

BC, why so sensitive, I expressed my preference and did not say it was pointless. It is cool that you and Ernie and your other customers can have fun with these guns. I was just giving my impression base on my reaction to seeing the gun. I did not mean to be critical. Years ago I read a discussion of whether a 4, 5, or 6 inch barrel was the best length for an open carry. What part of barrel length is not a relevant topic of discussion.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Uh Ernie, problem. Long Range? With That ammo? If their stated ballistics on the box is correct it is no where near even a Hodgdon published starting load much less as they state . . . Handloaded to maximum levels.

Rocky Mountain Ammo 180 Gr. Hornady
1100 fps
484 ft/lbs energy

Hodgdon starting load of H-110 and 180 gr. Nosler
1352 fps

Hodgdon doesn't list ft/lbs energy but that's easy enough to compute if you want to know.

My 357 match ammo
RCBS 180 gr @ 190 HT to 18 BHN
1536 fps 10 shot average
E.S. 26 fps
S.D. 8

Since you want to shoot 500 yards with this revolver I think you need to handload for it and forget that wimpy stuff. Starting out at 1100 fps just ain't gonna cut it.

Rick

Hey Rick

What are you shooting that load in? That is about what I get from my Dan Wesson .357 MAX. 8" barrel.

Tim

[cbrick]

Well, look at it this way.
Maybe, this will satisfy those that want a shorter barrel for the project.
Reduced MV with this factory load will be similar to a shorter barrel with handloads.

Maybe, I don't know what powder this commercial load uses but I suspect a fast powder because as a defensive round it'll probably be used mostly in 4 barrels plus you don't really want a huge fireball from a short barrel for defensive use. Assuming it is a fast powder your 13 inch barrel cannot take advantage of your expansion ratio. You want the gas pressure continuing to build and push the bullet all the way to muzzle, not as a sudden impulse push from the case to the forcing cone and done.

It'll be interesting anyway just to see how it does. My money is on your long range success using handloads and slow powder.

Rick

[cbrick]

Hey Rick

What are you shooting that load in? That is about what I get from my Dan Wesson .357 MAX. 8" barrel. Tim

It's a 9 inch FA. I would love to shoot some of my loads through Ernie's 13 incher and chrono the result but since I can't ship ammo that's not to likely, quite a drive just to test ammo. Plus I don't know what the cylinder length is on the GP100 so I don't know if this round would fit.

Rick

[ErnieBishop]

Barrel ended up being 14.75" or just shy of 15".

[ErnieBishop]

If it is accurate, it just involves more drop and drift.


Maybe, I don't know what powder this commercial load uses but I suspect a fast powder because as a defensive round it'll probably be used mostly in 4 barrels plus you don't really want a huge fireball from a short barrel for defensive use. Assuming it is a fast powder your 13 inch barrel cannot take advantage of your expansion ratio. You want the gas pressure continuing to build and push the bullet all the way to muzzle, not as a sudden impulse push from the case to the forcing cone and done.

It'll be interesting anyway just to see how it does. My money is on your long range success using handloads and slow powder.

Rick