Leading in a Ruger Blackhawk 45 colt

[tazman]

My neighbor has a Ruger Blackhawk 45colt with a 7 1/2 in barrel that we can't seem to get the leading stopped.
After 10-20 rounds there is some leading pretty much the length of the barrel. It isn't concentrated in any 1 spot that I can tell.

I set him up with a Lee 452-255-rf and a Lee tl452-230-tc. We have cast from coww and range scrap. We have water dropped and just dropped on a towel. We are using White Label X-lox for lube.
This is the same range scrap lead I use in my 38 special and 9mm loads with no leading.

We have tried loading with CFE pistol at 9.2 grains and 8.5 grains using both boolits.

The cylinder throats measure .454. The boolits are sized to .454 and will push through the throats with significant thumb pressure but will go through. All throats are the same size.
I slugged the barrel and the groove diameter is .4515. There is no constriction at the frame or breach of the barrel.
Once the slug enters the muzzle it can be pushed through the rest of the barrel with relatively light pressure.
There doesn't appear to be any roughness in the bore.

These same loads shoot through his Henry rifle with excellent accuracy and no leading whatsoever. He has fired approximately 200 rounds of these boolits through the Henry without cleaning it beyond a dry patch. I personally inspected the Henry to be sure it was clean.

I powder coated 50 of the Lee 255 grain boolits and sized them to .454 but we haven't had time to shoot them yet.

At this point I don't know what else to try.
Any input and suggestions would be appreciated.

[DougGuy]

11° forcing cone might straighten a bunch of it out.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/44%20Magnum/DSC01739_zps53352b7c.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/44%20Magnum/DSC01739_zps53352b7c.jpg.html)

Edit to add: I have GREAT luck in my Rugers using 50/50+2% alloy, which is close to 20:1 and it's softer. I can scratch it with a thumbnail. I also have great luck with Felix and other soft lubes. Back in my early days with handloading I used the hardest boolits I could find, most of those had hard blue lube, and they leaded the **** out of the barrel, same as yours is doing. There is a formula somewhere that actually matches alloy hardness to velocity, and for the life of me, I gotta admit, there seems to be some truth behind it.

I think if you used acww, along with Felix lube, you may cut your leading in half, but if you softened it up even more, 50% coww, 50% pure lead, 2% tin, for a bhn 12 or so, you would see significantly less leading, if almost none at all, and groups shrinking by better than half.. Especially with the Lee 255RF boolit.

[williamwaco]

With the barrel squeaky clean, can you see any tool marks in the bore?


Like this?


http://reloadingtips.com/reviews/charter_arms_bulldog.htm

[tazman]

With the barrel squeaky clean, can you see any tool marks in the bore?


Like this?


http://reloadingtips.com/reviews/charter_arms_bulldog.htm

Can't see any marks at all. I did that check just to be sure. Had plenty of light and my eyes aren't bad enough to miss that kind of thing.

I have tried everything I can think of except for changing powders and the pc coating. The pc coating is next up for test. Hate to change the powder since it works so well in the rifle.

[RobS]

What is the barrel's throat diameter (right where the rifle lands start just after the forcing cone)? If it's larger than .454 there could be the issue.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I don't have an answer, but I'm just curious. About what era was this Blackhawk made? I've got a 4 3/4" Ruger Blackhawk .45 made in the early 90's and it shoots great with 454190 .454" ww Alox and Unique. The guys I shoot with talk about the quirks with the new Rugers, and I've got a couple of 3 screws. They are all just a little bit different.

[williamwaco]

Can't see any marks at all. I did that check just to be sure. Had plenty of light and my eyes aren't bad enough to miss that kind of thing.

I have tried everything I can think of except for changing powders and the pc coating. The pc coating is next up for test. Hate to change the powder since it works so well in the rifle.

Please refer to post no 17 in this thread:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?255225-Kahr-PM9-I-m-suprised-by-my-groove-measurement-353

[tazman]

What is the barrel's throat diameter (right where the rifle lands start just after the forcing cone)? If it's larger than .454 there could be the issue.

I am not sure I know how to go about getting a good measurement on that area.

[tazman]

Please refer to post no 17 in this thread:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?255225-Kahr-PM9-I-m-suprised-by-my-groove-measurement-353

I checked to see if the boolits were being swaged down by the case. After pulling several rounds apart the boolits still measured .454.

[oldfart1956]

Tazman it sounds like you're doing everything right. I'll offer up the tip you don't want to hear as per your post. For some reason, and I don't actually have a specific answer some powders can cause/increase leading. I also have a Ruger 45 in 7 1/2 inch and have run a bunch'a different powders thru it (using the Lee mould you mentioned) and some loads leaded. Some horribly. I wouldn't think you have a lube problem. If it isn't fouling in a long rifle barrel it shouldn't have time to foul in a pistol barrel. (?) Depending on your target velocity the hardness/softness of the lead may or may not be a problem. When I had leading issues with a certain group of powders changing the alloy didn't make it better I can tell ya that. I ran from almost pure to Linotype. Water dropped, oven heat treated and air cooled. Recluse lubed, Felix and Carnuba Red. If it lead fouled with that powder it kept right on lead fouling. I finally settled on Unigue and Bullseye with the occasional TrailBoss load tossed in. No issues with those powders and you'll note those are relatively fast powders. Targeted velocities for my use were 850 to 950 f.p.s. for target/hunting use. Audie...the longwinded Oldfart..

[tazman]

Tazman it sounds like you're doing everything right. I'll offer up the tip you don't want to hear as per your post. For some reason, and I don't actually have a specific answer some powders can cause/increase leading. I also have a Ruger 45 in 7 1/2 inch and have run a bunch'a different powders thru it (using the Lee mould you mentioned) and some loads leaded. Some horribly. I wouldn't think you have a lube problem. If it isn't fouling in a long rifle barrel it shouldn't have time to foul in a pistol barrel. (?) Depending on your target velocity the hardness/softness of the lead may or may not be a problem. When I had leading issues with a certain group of powders changing the alloy didn't make it better I can tell ya that. I ran from almost pure to Linotype. Water dropped, oven heat treated and air cooled. Recluse lubed, Felix and Carnuba Red. If it lead fouled with that powder it kept right on lead fouling. I finally settled on Unigue and Bullseye with the occasional TrailBoss load tossed in. No issues with those powders and you'll note those are relatively fast powders. Targeted velocities for my use were 850 to 950 f.p.s. for target/hunting use. Audie...the longwinded Oldfart..

Thanks for suggesting that. I hadn't given that a thought.
I have a couple of other suitable powders that I can try including Titegroup, Trail Boss, 800X, and WSH.
That gives me another angle on it if the powder coat doesn't work.

[Eddy Stone]

Tazman, I think The Old Fart has a good suggestion. I also shoot a RBH 4 5/8 and get great results from the old RCBS 265 gr. as well as a Mt. Mould 310. You might even try the Power Pistol you regularly recommend. IMR 4227 works well with the 310 at 950 fps.

[Alablam]

Loose base pin maybe? My Blackhawk likes 9.5 gr. Herco under the 230 gr. (actually 240gr. with my antimony-lite alloy) Lee tl452-230 TC using the Lee liquid Alox. No leading, in fact it seemed to loosen the lead deposits left from some Magnus 185 gr. swaged lead hollow points over Titegroup I experimented with.

[tazman]

I've got a little bit of Herco left in a bottle. I can give that a try.

[44man]

I don't understand at all. I shoot water dropped WW boolits with no leading and have shot a ton of 50-50 with no leading either but once I get too soft, I can fill a barrel with lead even with fit.
Never had luck with bought boolits at all.
To get a Keith to shoot I had to go 28 and 30 BHN, zero leading.
Have you ever thought that a .454" boolit from a .4515" groove is TOO LARGE and you are ruining the boolit and GG's when entering the bore? Why don't you try .452"?
There is no reason to shoot only throat size boolits. BUMP UP to obturate is also false. Fit to the bore and get a straight start.

[RobS]

I am not sure I know how to go about getting a good measurement on that area.

Pull the cylinder, take pure lead slug that is .455 or a bit larger and push it into the forcing cone until it starts to engrave the rifling then measure right at the engraving. You could also use one of your 50/50 WW to scrap Lee 255 RF boolits that has just cooled from casting so it's soft and place it on a flat surface nose down and hit the base of the boolit with a hammer to widen the diameter. I've done this a time or two to slug a revolver's throat before. I also use a 1"X1/2" by about 6" long piece of oak to help push the slug into the forcing cone/barrel's throat.

[Alablam]

I've got a little bit of Herco left in a bottle. I can give that a try.


I've also had decent luck with Universal Clays with 200 and 250gr. cast bullets, good enough to play on a 100yd. range. Titegroup wasn't quite as good accuracy wise with the Lee 200gr. SWC, but little leading. So far the best powder choice has been Herco, but I might try Bluedot in the 13-14gr. range later.

[30calflash]

Maybe try air cooled. Sometimes the boolit can be too hard and not obturate/expand as needed. I've heard of guys going from a hard to soft alloy and it worked well for them. YMMV.

[shoot-n-lead]

Maybe try air cooled. Sometimes the boolit can be too hard and not obturate/expand as needed. I've heard of guys going from a hard to soft alloy and it worked well for them. YMMV.

OP said the had tried that..."towel dropped"...in his original post.

[Whiterabbit]

I don't understand at all. I shoot water dropped WW boolits with no leading and have shot a ton of 50-50 with no leading either but once I get too soft, I can fill a barrel with lead even with fit.
Never had luck with bought boolits at all.
To get a Keith to shoot I had to go 28 and 30 BHN, zero leading.
Have you ever thought that a .454" boolit from a .4515" groove is TOO LARGE and you are ruining the boolit and GG's when entering the bore? Why don't you try .452"?
There is no reason to shoot only throat size boolits. BUMP UP to obturate is also false. Fit to the bore and get a straight start.


This was my first thought. My second thought was powder also. In my gun H110 is good to go to at least 550 grains of bullet, but #9 over 300 grains is asking for trouble. And they are supposed to be pretty similar. Not even close.

[butch2570]

I had a super blackhawk hunter giving me trouble also, until I lapped the restriction out where the barrel threads are. Now it will leave a very tiny bit of leading there but nothing like it was doing before.

[tazman]

I finally found a solution to the problem. I powder coated the 255 grain boolit and sized it to .454. We shot 50 of them through the pistol this afternoon with no leading whatsoever. Accuracy was also greatly improved.
We then fired 24 rounds of lubed lead through it and had lead everywhere.
Apparently the bore is a bit rough. I dug a couple of the coated boolits out of the backstop. The pc had been mostly removed from the sides and was still intact on the nose and base. I can only attribute this to an abrasive surface in the barrel. No tool marks are visible inside the barrel but the surface must not be smooth. Perhaps in time and a lot of shooting it will polish up.
Now I need to teach my neighbor to powder coat his boolits.

[dubber123]

If that is the case, a quick firelapping will fix it without having to shoot it in the condition it is in. I have never had anything but good results from the process.

[tazman]

I guess I will have to do some research on that.

[w5pv]

I shoot several different calibers from 32 Long Colt to 45 Colt never had any leading with Ben's Red,the only popular calibers that I don't shoot is the 38's including the 357 and 44 magum.