30XCB threads...What happened???

[cainttype]

The 30XCB threads seem to have disappeared. Although the Google search engine suuplies plenty of links, I get a message that they're not available... What gives?

[Bjornb]

I have inquired and been told that both threads are under review by staff and will be posted back on the sub-forum when review is complete.

[cainttype]

Thanks, Bjornb, I thought the problem might have been on my end.
Being somewhat curious by nature, I have been keeping up with the results you guys are posting. The urge to pursue high-velocity with cast hasn't afflicted me (so far), but if it ever does those threads would be good reference material, along with any data provided by others chasing HV by different methods.

[sawzall]

So what is the problem with those threads? I was in the process of reading Larry Gibson's thread when it disappeared.

[runfiverun]

it was where it was headed.
hopefully they will be back soon, we are working on it.

[Larry Gibson]

So where was it headed? Seems to me every body was moving forward and we were learning a lot. I've some pressure data for geargnasher on his H414 load with the 180 MPH Sil bullet and accuracy info for Bjorn on his NOE 310-165 bullets.

Larry Gibson

Well excuse me folks, I guess I am the only one accountable for spelling, punctuation and grammar on the forum. So be it. My apologies to Geargnasher and Bjornb for messing up their "handles". I made this post on my phone at a gas station and wasn't paying real close attention. I'm sure I'm the only one who's ever messed up like that with a smart phone and not so trained thumbs.

[runfiverun]

not everybody looked at it that way.
I dunno,,, man.

I really wish for just one time we could work together on a project with only positive posts or constructive observations made.
just a plain ol discussion to help everybody move forward with their tests. [without drama]
this is a pretty damn important project to a lot of people and sometimes emotions get ruffled easily when they care this much.


I'm not the one that pulled the thread.

[geargnasher]

I should leave this alone but I won't since that isn't a courtesy extended to me. Larry, here's the deal.

1. A few weeks? ago, on the "XCB from scratch" thread, Goodsteel posted a "hint" that he'd love to see Btroj and me post some data about shooting our XCB rifles. Btroj responded that he would not because he would be "browbeat" etc. by you about RPM etc. and he wasn't going to go there.

2. You responded by saying you wouldn't do that, and poor you because everyone always browbeats you about RPM. OK, whatever, YOU are the one who always brings it up and derails every thread at every opportunity with it, but fine, we took you at your word.

3. With that in mind I decided to start participating in Bjorn's thread because I felt I could provide some timely and direct experience. We were having a nice discussion and I asked if someone could help us out with some QL data. Goodsteel kindly replied.

4. Then you decided to get involved. No QL data offer, no pertinent participation in the powder choice discussion Bjorn and I were having, just a direct blast about how I'm losing accuracy because of the rpm threshold blah blah blah for the millionth time. You call that "moving forward"? You know damn good and well that your RPM comments to me about my shooting aren't welcome, yet you persist. You have two, count 'em, TWO locked sticky threads harping about your rpm theory and exactly what it is. Don't you think I know without reminding me what you think every single time I post about diagnosing HV accuracy failure? Why do you have to keep BROWBEATING us with it? YES, BROWBEATING. Truth is, you DO know, but you love to troll and you love to start fights with those who you know will stand up and hit you back. About my two ten-twist rifles and one twelve that all poop out at 2400 fps with the exact same alloy, I know what's up with that and you are wrong, dead wrong, about it being just because I'm at the end of your RPM threshold. I know exactly that the problem is and am going about fixing it. But I can't discuss that here intelligently with the two people left on the board who actually know anything about it without you taking over the conversation and turning it to another rpm soapbox that none of us who know better want to hear about. "Moving forward" hasn't happened here in a very long time because YOU keep standing in everyone's way, hitting them over the head with your rpm theory and yelling from the mountaintops about how slow twists, long barrels, and throat-matched bullets are the only way to get there. It's time you step aside and let some other people, who have much better explanations and techniques to tackle this HV accuracy issue than you do, have a little floor time without your interference.

5. You jumped in on Bjorn's thread and put up that post to get a rise out of me. That's called Baiting and Trolling. You know what you did, and you know better. I took the bait and ran with it to prove a point. That's when Goodsteel yanked the thread down. I hope you're happy that you got a rise out of me, just like you're doing now with your pretend innocent attitude here and trying to manipulate what others think about the situation.

6. You refuse to capitalize my handle when you address me, despite my appeal to you several times and a very lengthy argument you put up about it in "our town" some time ago. You STILL refuse to capitalize my handle, which, as I have informed you, is a blunt sign of total disrespect to me.

7. I've been putting up with this sort of behavior from you and several of your friends since I joined the board. Lots of others have been putting up with it a lot longer, and a whole lot of them have just quit or quit posting because of it. Others have gotten themselves banned because you are so expert at getting people worked up. I tell you, if you were half as good at the reloading bench as you are about manipulating people for your own amusement, you'd be a better shot than any of us.

Now, you want to go on like two grown men and share data, or are you going to continue to troll and bait and troll and soapbox us to death with your obtuse points of view and find every way you can to derail every thread you possibly can here? I have no desire to prove RPM wrong, I just ignore it.

You know the boundaries with me and most people here. Problem is you don't adhere to them.

Gear. With a capital "G".

[cbrick]

So what is the problem with those threads? I was in the process of reading Larry Gibson's thread when it disappeared.

118137 118138 Now that's just plain funny!

Larry Gibson's threads indeed.

Rick

[btroj]

Amen Gear.

Larry, it was just the sort of response you made that makes me not want to participate in spear discussions.

Gear, Run, and I worked together for better than a year on the lube quest. We each did our own thing yet we also bounced ideas off each other. We got ideas from one another on what direction we felt was the way to go. Often times we were going in vastly differing directions. Why did this work? One simple word. RESPECT. We didn't ask each other for blind obedience to a concept. We never berated one another, in public or private, for the misguided tests of one person. We always looked at the end game and figured anything the others learned, good or bad, was beneficial to all.

Yes, it is about respect. You refuse to respect anyone with beliefs that fpdiffer from your own. You tend to have a torched earth approach to dealing with those with contrary ideas, beliefs, or opinions.

I am sure I speak for everyone else when I say this- let us have our ideas, or opinions, and beliefs no matter how misguided you feel they are. Let us discuss what we are doing, trying, and learning. We want to share things with one another and the cast bullets shooters as a whole. If you feel strongly about something then say so and move on. Demanding "proof" is akin to calling someone a liar. Nobody likes being called out in public, it tends to ruffle their feathers yet it happens time and time again. Why? It benefits nobody.

In all reality had I known the grief, heartache, and pain this entire deal was going to cause me I would have politely refused Tim's offer over a year ago. It was very kind, and generous, of him to offer to build me a rifle at no profit to him. He poured his heart and soul I to the effort and it got neither of us the safisfaction we were hoping for. The entire process was joyous until the bickering and fighting began. What started as a hope of learning quickly turned into a quagmire or hopelessness. Tim and I don't speak and that in itself is a tragedy. At the current time my rifle brings me little joy as that joy was turned to stone by the Medusa that is this infighting.

The entire mention of barrel twist and RPM raises the hackle on my neck and makes me want to scream.

We need to find common ground and set the past aside and move forward. I think Tim will agree that the entire goal of the XCB rifles was to learn and pursue the farthest reaches of the cast bullet universe. It wasn't to prove anything or anyone right. It was about gaining knowledge, not building egos. It was about sharing info with the world and learning together. The hopes of the past can be renewed if we all decide that we will let the past be and move forward with only open, honest, respectful dialogue.


I am willing to start fresh, key is who else is with me?

[geargnasher]

Ya'll play nice, I'm going do do something fun for the rest of the weekend far away from any keyboard.

Gear

[btroj]

Have a great weekend Gear. I'll be at work

[RED333]

HA, I am making bird cages, friend has a LOT of quail, close to 75, that he has hatched and he needs a few cages bad, as they hatched 4 days early.

[dtknowles]

HA, I am making bird cages, friend has a LOT of quail, close to 75, that he has hatched and he needs a few cages bad, as they hatched 4 days early.

I would think you have some time to make the cages. We did not have 75 but they spent a while after they hatched in a box with a heat light, I think we called it a brooder then we moved them to a wire pen.

Tim

[Bjornb]

If I shoot my rifle on Sunday (not sure, outta bullets but casting tomorrow) and believe there is sufficient progress to share with the members, I'll just start a new test thread. No big deal. Goodsteel is going out of town for the weekend, so I don't expect an immediate resolution on restoring the old threads.
For those who remember, with W760 (H414) velocities were close to 2700 fps while grouping below 2 inches at 100 yards. This will be the powder of choice for further testing.

I absolutely refuse to be dragged into the personal vendettas that are going on here. I'm too old and too crabby to tolerate backhandedness, and I fully echo Runfiverun's observation about only mutually constructive posts being made, since we are all striving towards the same goal with the XCB.
Whose advice each shooter chooses to follow is up to the individual.

My 2 centavos,
Bjorn

[runfiverun]

love the thread drift...:lol:
I think I have the title to largest thread drift ever, but this has to be a close second.
I needed the chuckle.

carry on,,,,,, follow the rules.


ohhhh,, the threads could be back up sunday or Monday.

[garandsrus]

6. You refuse to capitalize my handle when you address me, despite my appeal to you several times and a very lengthy argument you put up about it in "our town" some time ago. You STILL refuse to capitalize my handle, which, as I have informed you, is a blunt sign of total disrespect to me.

Gear. With a capital "G".

i don't have a dog in this fight, but why would anyone capitalize your handle when you have it all in lower case? I would type it as the handle owner did unless it was the first word in a sentence and then I would capitalize the 'G' only.

if you don't like Larry's posts, just put him on your ignore list.

[btroj]

Heck, if H414 is working why would you even think of changing to something else? I am sure your rifle could care less about what shoots well in mine!
The rifles may all be cut with the same reamer but the barrels differ so much in length and girth that harmonics will make for some preferences in what shoots best.
I seriously doubt a single load will be "best" in all and I would be disappointed if it was.

I will be working rather than shooting this weekend but hope to get out Tues. no idea at this time what the loads will be, haven't thought that far ahead. I don't have and 414 so that won't be on the list. Maybe some VV540?

[taco650]

I am willing to start fresh, key is who else is with me?


Count me in because I follow this thread to learn something new. I don't see myself getting a rifle in this caliber but I'm always interested in seeing what others do and how they get there. Please set the bickering aside and move forward. You're almost there and even if you never get it where you wanted, at least you'll know you gave it your best and retained your self respect and your respect of others in the process.

[dragon813gt]

i don't have a dog in this fight, but why would anyone capitalize your handle when you have it all in lower case? I would type it as the handle owner did unless it was the first word in a sentence and then I would capitalize the 'G' only.

if you don't like Larry's posts, just put him on your ignore list.

I thought the same thing. But I thought might be an issue w/ Tapatalk so I didn't bother posting. Glad my initial assumption was correct.

[Bjornb]

Never tried any of those expensive Finnish powders, but the 540 is listed very close to the WW760 on the burn rate chart.

[btroj]

I bought this stuff years ago to try for my AR for 600 yards, never did use it for that. Based on burn rate it shows some potential. I want to try some RE 15 too.

So many powders are in the same general area yet I know each rifle will have a favorite, it always works out that way.

[Bjornb]

BTW, R5R, have you had a chance to shoot cast in your rifle yet?

[leeggen]

One of the neat things about shooting threads like this is it gives others ideas of trying to further their shooting abilities by refining certain areas. Thanks to Gearnasher, Btroj and Bjornb doing their tests. Please continue some are really interested in the results.

CD

[btroj]

I can assure you shooting will continue. Posting will continue. I just hope the bickering doesn't.

Should bickering resume then I forsee the results and discussions of same going underground.

Heck, I even took people off my ignore list for this.

[runfiverun]

I haven't done any cast shooting yet.
my work schedule mandates that I do things in fit's and starts.
so I have to concentrate on one thing for a while then move along.
I have some boolits cast/lubed and waiting, I just need to do some quick weight sorting and start thinking about load development.

I did manage to get a new scope for the rifle today.
but I still need to squish up some brass and trim it for the cast loads.
hopefully I can get the brass made before I head back to work Monday.

[btroj]

Is it wrong to ask this question?

Do the others with an XCB rifle have a defined end game? Do you have a specific goal in mind?

I do not. I want to see where the rifle takes me. I want to see what it teaches me. I have no preconceived notions of where that will be.

I do hope to find an accurate load at whatever velocity level I can for lube testing over time. I prefer it be over 2K fps but if not so be it.

[Bjornb]

I haven't done any cast shooting yet.
my work schedule mandates that I do things in fit's and starts.
so I have to concentrate on one thing for a while then move along.
I have some boolits cast/lubed and waiting, I just need to do some quick weight sorting and start thinking about load development.

I did manage to get a new scope for the rifle today.
but I still need to squish up some brass and trim it for the cast loads.
hopefully I can get the brass made before I head back to work Monday.

OK this may or may not have validity, but fact remains that my last session was shot exclusively with brass made from 7x57 cases (Norma), and my results were better than previous outings. There were also different primers used, but i digress. The difference in work required to make these cases was huge, and just maybe there were some other differences that influenced the shooting results:
When making cases from 30-06 brass and going through the process of FL sizing, chopping off the necks, sizing again with expander button, and finally turning the necks (I use a K&N carbide mandrel with the internal "donut" cutting tool), the inside of the case necks, albeit free of donut, were very difficult to get as smooth as the factory inside neck surfaces of the Norma cases. It also showed in the cases after firing, when the case necks seemed to retain more powder residue on the inside than what I'm used to.
Then there's the neck tension inherent in a factory case vs. a wildcat that's had its neck and shoulder artificially built up by a sizing die.
Again, maybe this is all just bunk; but I'm putting it out there. There was certainly a lot less hassle just running those Mauser cases once through the sizer.

[Bjornb]

Is it wrong to ask this question?

Do the others with an XCB rifle have a defined end game? Do you have a specific goal in mind?

I do not. I want to see where the rifle takes me. I want to see what it teaches me. I have no preconceived notions of where that will be.

I do hope to find an accurate load at whatever velocity level I can for lube testing over time. I prefer it be over 2K fps but if not so be it.

I have a definite goal besides shooting bugholes at 300 yards:mrgreen:
I have a second XCB rifle being built, a lightweight sporter with a high quality barrel (same twist as my first rifle), and I would like for this rifle to be my primary go-to hunting rifle for any critter I may be hunting here in North America. A reliable 2500 FPS load with a 165 gr. bullet should make that a reality.

[runfiverun]

Bjorn I'm on that same path.
i'll be using home made bullets to do that with though.

the jacketed loads I shot earlier were made with 8 mauser brass, and barring ordering some lapua 8mm brass i'll make a few of them from the 0-6 for now.
I noticed that the mauser brass had little striations around the neck shoulder junction that I thought would blow out when fire formed but it didn't.
the 0-6 didn't have this issue.
I'm also working on a powered trimmer die for my Dillon which will make the trimming of the cases a 3 second deal.
the extra thickness of the case neck is a bonus, an expected and planned for bonus.
the extra thickness lifts the boolit up and away from the chamber, making it closer to the centerline of the barrel.

I can use a 308-309-310 diameter boolit without issue, because it is in the centerline of the barrel and doesn't have any corrections to make.
the 310 diameter would be somewhat preferable as then it would make contact with the ball seat and the bore on the nose giving the boolit more contact points to help center things better and better.

I sure talk about finding the center of the barrel a lot....

[runfiverun]

okay back to the neck thickness, boolit diameter relationship for a second.
the variable neck thickness allows me to adjust neck tension and boolit diameter.
depending on my powder speed I can positively or negatively manipulate the initial pressure spike of the powder through WHEN the boolit engraves the rifling.
starting with a larger boolit touching more steel allows me to use a slower powder and less boolit tension, this spikes the powder sooner getting it to burn just a little better upon ignition before it is started down the barrel.
going to more neck tension allows the pressure to build before the boolit is released delaying that spike momentarily when it hits the steel, and can influence an even slower powder positively also.
now some of this is going to depend on your boolits design and how far it has to move before the groove depth of the barrel is filled by lead.
the boolit design is going to also influence your alloy choice.
those few critical miniseconds is the worst part of life on your lube too they are exposed to the hot gasses as the case pops open and the lube is right there sucking it all up.
not giving those lube/boolit damaging gasses a large area to flow in is going to help your pristine boolit survive that trip.
now your thinking i'll make the boolit slightly larger to block this from happening,,, no, wrong choice.
all that does is swage the boolit even harder getting into the barrel pushing things into places you do not want them.
i'll take a barrel correct diameter boolit and fill the rest of the area with brass every time.
the exposed part of the boolit is what does the work of centering things it's shape also influences what damage is going to happen to the boolit moving forward, and it's either going to resist that fast movement or it's going to slip [hopefully evenly]
oversized will be damaged every time no matter how hard you make your alloy.
remember we are talking brass thickness from .013 to .011 and a boolit diameter of .310 to .308
this gives us 9 different combinations to get things just right with a couple of different powders in a close burn rate zone.
change your burn rate a couple of steps and the influence can become more or less depending on which way you go.
you have to step forward a bit at a time and then change things just a little to get into the next zone, knowing how your throat/ boolit/ case relationship is influencing things can be a big help and can give you clues as to what that step should be....

[Bjornb]

THIS was a lot for an old squarehead to digest. I printed it all out for further perusal at the loading bench. I also made a few cases from 8x57 brass and got the same neck striations, that's why I went to 7x57 brass. My ball mike could not measure a difference in neck thickness before and after necking up so I kept whatever thickness each Norma case had to begin with, mostly around 13 thou.
Very interesting observations about the bullet size. I have all the sizers from .308 to .311, so that won't be difficult to experiment with. My chamber has a true .337 chamber neck, so at a .311 sized bullet that puts you right at max for chambering. Be interesting to try a .308 sized bullet.......

Off to do some casting; this rifle eats bullets.

[cbrick]

Run, just because you didn't mention it . . . are you neck sizing only the fire formed brass? With all that bullet aligning it sure would help to keep the brass fitting and aligned.

Also I ran some experiments several years ago with uniformed primer pockets, standard deviation is lower with both the primer pocket and the flash hole uniformed vs leaving them untouched. My match brass gets the primer pockets uniformed (cleaned) after every firing because it gets shallower with each high pressure firing. Lot's of little tricks that can help gain uniformity, most are useless in the average stock chamber but your not using the average off the shelf hunting rifle or striving for 1700 fps.

Rick

[HangFireW8]

An organizational comment... I don't know if the forum software can handle it, but it sounds like a private or limited participation thread is in order. If not, a private Wiki is great for collaboration. Results can be posted later.

I have noticed some respect issues here as well. In particular, I will post something, one of the forum heavies will post the same thing and then their buddies will all congratulate the heavy. I'm a big boy, I don't need this forum to stoke my ego. Just don't be surprised if the yeoman level reloaders don't feel like sticking around.

[btroj]

Bjornb, the idea of an "everything hunting rifle" is a great idea. That is a worthy end game.

I am intrigued by the idea you got better results with 7x57 cases than cut down 06 brass. Interesting. I need to try the same and see what happens. What sort of neck thickness are you getting? If you have 13 thou, like I read in your post, you are about perfect. A 310 bullet in a .013 neck makes loaded round .336. I don't think a half thou on either side for clearance is gonna make any differences. I need to get some good 7 x 57 brass.

Rick, I am cleaning the primer pocket with a carbide reamer made for that purpose after every firing. All flash holes are cleaned up from burrs during case prep/manufacture. It takes little time and effort and is well worth while.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I am willing to start fresh, key is who else is with me?Count me in because I follow this thread to learn something new. I don't see myself getting a rifle in this caliber but I'm always interested in seeing what others do and how they get there. Please set the bickering aside and move forward. You're almost there and even if you never get it where you wanted, at least you'll know you gave it your best and retained your self respect and your respect of others in the process.

Great post Taco,
There are a lot of us following this these threads of HV tests. Since this thread is really a discussion about behavior, I'd like all who follow these threads, and rarely or never post ...to chime in now with a, "ME TOO, I FOLLOW THESE THREADS TO LEARN SOMETHING NEW".

Maybe the main players of these threads will act and react more peaceably when they realize there is a fairly large audience of devoted followers who respect the knowledge and dedication of all involved.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Is it wrong to ask this question?

Do the others with an XCB rifle have a defined end game? Do you have a specific goal in mind?

I do not. I want to see where the rifle takes me. I want to see what it teaches me. I have no preconceived notions of where that will be.

I do hope to find an accurate load at whatever velocity level I can for lube testing over time. I prefer it be over 2K fps but if not so be it.

While I am mostly following the HV quest, I am doing some work toward HV in a different caliber (243win).

My goal is simple, shooting boolits at J-word velocities in a "off the shelf" rifle at the best accuracy possible. I haven't really thought about a accuracy goal or standard, but just "off the cuff", I guess 2 MOA is acceptable.

[btroj]

"At the best accuracy possible"
Excellent. Those are the words I wanted to hear. Best possible. This means YOU want to get the most YOU can from YOUR rifle. What more could anyone want?
When we decide that certain criteria must be met or that standards must be met it changes the entire dynamic. A guy looking to maximize how own potential is a guy I want to be around. He isn't doing anything to prove things to others, he is proving something to himself.

[cbrick]

While I am mostly following the HV quest, I am doing some work toward HV in a different caliber (243win).

My goal is simple, shooting boolits at J-word velocities in a "off the shelf" rifle at the best accuracy possible. I haven't really thought about a accuracy goal or standard, but just "off the cuff", I guess 2 MOA is acceptable.

Now there is something to peak my interest. Are you going to post here or start a new thread? If you start a new thread post the link at least here so we can find it (this is a big forum).

Rick

[runfiverun]

ditto Rick's post Jon.
it doesn't matter if it's a failure or a success, there is something to be learned from each trip to the range if you are diligent and methodical and are willing to look under the rocks for the underlying causes of each result.

ricks post earlier reminded me about how anal I get about some of my loading techniques.
just inserting a primer is multiple steps for me.
I do clean primer pockets.
I then re-champher the case mouth.
I poke a cleaning brush in the neck.
then I seat the primer, turn the case 90*, and re-seat the primer.
the flash holes have been uniformed, and any burrs inside the case [from poking the primer hole] has been cut away before the first loading.
this is normal Brass prep no matter if it's a worn out old mauser or a new ruger.

in the wifes Charles daley [7x57] I had a set of brass that I worked over to the point I didn't even have to neck size the cases anymore.
I just poked out the primers, re-seated new ones, dropped the powder, and seated a boolit.
I bet I loaded those same 50 cases 9-10 times before she tired of the boringly accurate rifle and traded it off.
this of course bent me out of 6 different shapes.
I should go look for those cases now that I think about it.

[btroj]

Exactly Run, even a poor group or leading tells us something. It is up to us to determine what we are learning and how to grow from it. Thinking of it this way is there really a failure if we gained knowledge?

[cbrick]

Picking the fly poop out of the pepper barrel and realizing that the primer strike does effect the burn led me to come up with a primer seating method/device that puts the same amount of pressure for the same amount of time on every primer. Firing pin travel/strike exactly the same on every primer.

Rick

[btroj]

Like Bassakwards always said, it only matters when it does.
Isnt that what this is all about, learning what matters and when?
We hear that hard bullets are better when pressure rises yet Rick learned that there is a limit after which extra hardness is detrimental. It mattered when it did.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Now there is something to peak my interest. Are you going to post here or start a new thread? If you start a new thread post the link at least here so we can find it (this is a big forum).

Rick
Rick and R5R
Yep, I tend to post about nearly everything I do in my life, whether it's about boolits and some not about boolits...I've been posting here about HV 243 since July. This has been and will remain a slow process, as I have lots of projects going on all the time, and now was called back to work, starting on Monday.

These three threads are what have done so far. I started two of the threads in the 'cast boolits' forum, there is a lot of activity in that forum and the threads get buried quickly.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?248671-Heat-treat&highlight=

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?249135-Homemade-Lube-Geargnasher-s-SL68-recipe&highlight=

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?254730-HV-in-243-range-visit-1&highlight=


edited: Oh yeah, this thread also was actually the very beginning.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?246915-Brass-fouled-bore-now-what

[tomme boy]

What I want to hear is "how to get past" the so called rpm theory speed limit. I know a bunch have done it but they will not explain how to. I fall off at about 2K-2.1K. I just can not seem to get past it.

Now that would be a thread that most of the people on this board would love to see.

[Bjornb]

Tom,
I'm not even going to get close to ANY theory here. All I can say is that I have the following tools to work with:
-a good 30-cal rifle with a heavy, 1:14 inch twist barrel
-a cartridge that was designed to fit the entire bullet in the neck, and be loaded close to 100% capacity
-a bullet that was designed for the chamber of my rifle
-normal good alloy (Lyman #2, water quenched)
-normal good lube (White Label 2500+)
-normal good loading practices (OK, a little anal)
This rifle now shoots 2 MOA groups repeatably at 2600 fps+, and I have high hopes that she'll do better.
I'm an average shooter, nothing more.

I don't think there are any secrets out there. I haven't seen any.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

What I want to hear is "how to get past" the so called rpm theory speed limit. I know a bunch have done it but they will not explain how to. I fall off at about 2K-2.1K. I just can not seem to get past it.

Now that would be a thread that most of the people on this board would love to see.
The Heart of my HV 243 project is inspired by my belief in the theory that the alloy must match the chamber pressure curve. As the chart below indicates what Approximate MAX pressure an alloy can withstand before fully slumping. There are surely other aspects involved, most importantly that every gun may want something different. But I believe most people who have attempted HV and haven't gotton the results they wanted, haven't 'played' with the boolit material (alloy) enough.








Approximate "Maximum" Chamber Pressure For Lead Alloys (PSI)






Plumbers lead, stick on WW

13,000 - (Black Powder Only)


Wheel weights / clip-on




25,000 - Non-Magnum handgun


loads, Rifles to 1,900 fps










Lyman # 2 (alloy varies in




Lyman cast bullet books)









35,000 - Magnum handgun &


rifles to 2,000 fps










Quench-cast WW (dropped




from mould into cool water)









48,000 - Magnum handgun


& rifles to 2,200 fps






Oven heat treated WW




55,000 - Jacketed velocities in handguns


and rifles with quality bore & balanced load

















this chart is from

http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

[leeggen]

Question : have any of you xcb shooters marking the boolits and cases so you insert the boolits in the same position in the case and then insert the case in the rifle in the same position? Does it even make a difference if you do this or not?
CD

[Bjornb]

Question : have any of you xcb shooters marking the boolits and cases so you insert the boolits in the same position in the case and then insert the case in the rifle in the same position? Does it even make a difference if you do this or not?
CD

I know that's a common practice in bench rest shooting. Dimpling the mould cavities to know which cavity you're shooting from etc.
No, I try to do a thorough case prep, and I use a custom Goodsteel expander die and an RCBS Competition Seater for straight bullet seating, but I don't take the time and effort to do what you describe above. Who knows, maybe it would make a difference.....

[tomme boy]

I don't think it would make any difference unless the chamber was off-center to the bore of the barrel. I was always under the impression that was the reason for doing that. It was the only way to try to get it aligned up.

And when I said I can't get past the 2.1K range, I meant I can't keep it sub-MOA. I was out shooting my Mosin today shooting my 215gr boolit at 2400fps and I was getting 2.25" at 100 yds. I was not happy at all as this rifle will shoot right at 1.25" at 100 at 1900fps or a little slower. It slowly opens up the faster I push it past 1900fps. This is with water dropped COWW aged for 2 weeks. I have really good fit to the throat. The taper of the throat to the taper of the boolit is an almost exact match. I am using Lapua brass so it is about as good as it gets there. Absolutely NO leading whatsoever. The twist on this is 1-9.6" so it is really spinning this thing. I should be happy, but I'm not.

We can all seem to get to the 1.9-2K range for speed without much issue. It is from there that many have problems. I would like to see some post that shows how people are getting it done. I would love to see pics of how the boolits are sorted out on what is kept and what is discarded. How you seat your checks, and lube them. Case prep, seat the boolits pretty much everything.

There are a lot of post all around this site on how to get it done, but they are scattered from one end to the other and there is a huge amount of information scattered throughout regular non-stickied post. And if you don't read every single one, a lot of that info is lost.

I don't know, maybe I am just rambling

[btroj]

Rambling is good. I call it thinking out loud.

I have never oriented my ammo at any stage of production or shooting.

[cbrick]

It's called indexing, not only how the bullet goes in the brass but also how the loaded cartridge is inserted into the chamber. That is fairly common with T/C competitors because T/C is well known for chambers and or throats to not be concentric with the center line of the bore.

Rick

[btroj]

My chamber is concentric, the shooter is eccentric. Does that mean I need to index? Do I keep track of my indexing on index cards?

[detox]

My chamber is concentric, the shooter is eccentric. Does that mean I need to index? Do I keep track of my indexing on index cards?

Good one. Most everyone in this forum needs to be indexed

[detox]

Lets start a new tread called "Eboli and the 30XCB"

Do I need indexing?

[btroj]

I don't know about indexing but I'm not gonna ask about anyone's orientation....

[cbrick]

Jon, the chart you pasted in post #49 is intended as a guide, a starting point to give you an idea where your at. It was never intended to be a set in stone hard rule. I know because I compiled info from many published sources into that chart to be a reference.

Rick

[cainttype]

Tom,
I'm not even going to get close to ANY theory here. All I can say is that I have the following tools to work with:
-a good 30-cal rifle with a heavy, 1:14 inch twist barrel
-a cartridge that was designed to fit the entire bullet in the neck, and be loaded close to 100% capacity
-a bullet that was designed for the chamber of my rifle
-normal good alloy (Lyman #2, water quenched)
-normal good lube (White Label 2500+)
-normal good loading practices (OK, a little anal)
This rifle now shoots 2 MOA groups repeatably at 2600 fps+, and I have high hopes that she'll do better.
I'm an average shooter, nothing more.

I don't think there are any secrets out there. I haven't seen any.

You have obviously been following good advice. Any accuracy with cast at 2600 fps+ is an accomplishment that not many can claim as an easy thing to do.
I see merit in quite a bit of the postings by members that seem to feud as much as inform. The idea of heated debate is actually a good thing. I'm sure that the concept of the Earth NOT being flat was met with ridicule and contempt. The trick is finding consensus slowly, on obvious facts, and moving the general understanding of the subject at hand in the right direction.
There will be multiple ways to find performance levels at lower criteria. As we raise the bar, fewer approaches will suffice. There will be a point, where each individual component will be the cause of failure.
I have NO doubt that every component has a vital role when we push anything to an extreme. Case neck tension, neck wall thickness... projectile diameter, alloy, bhn...powder burn rate, density...primer...ammo fit-to-firearm...firearm build quality...barrel length... and yes, twist rates.
To suggest that any of those criteria should be ignored is a mistake.

[detox]

One gripe I have about my 30XCB NOE 165 mold is that the tip or nose of bullet cavity is cut into vent line. This causes a noticeable raised parting line and whisker on tip of all bullets cast. I must scrape off whisker with finger nail.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Jon, the chart you pasted in post #49 is intended as a guide, a starting point to give you an idea where your at. It was never intended to be a set in stone hard rule. I know because I compiled info from many published sources into that chart to be a reference.
Rick
Rick,
I totally agree, that is how I read the chart.
As I re-read my post, I guess I should have worded it better.

I edited that post.
Jon

[taco650]

While I am mostly following the HV quest, I am doing some work toward HV in a different caliber (243win).

My goal is simple, shooting boolits at J-word velocities in a "off the shelf" rifle at the best accuracy possible. I haven't really thought about a accuracy goal or standard, but just "off the cuff", I guess 2 MOA is acceptable.


Rick and R5R
Yep, I tend to post about nearly everything I do in my life, whether it's about boolits and some not about boolits...I've been posting here about HV 243 since July. This has been and will remain a slow process, as I have lots of projects going on all the time, and now was called back to work, starting on Monday.

These three threads are what have done so far. I started two of the threads in the 'cast boolits' forum, there is a lot of activity in that forum and the threads get buried quickly.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?248671-Heat-treat&highlight=

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?249135-Homemade-Lube-Geargnasher-s-SL68-recipe&highlight=

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?254730-HV-in-243-range-visit-1&highlight=


edited: Oh yeah, this thread also was actually the very beginning.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?246915-Brass-fouled-bore-now-what

JonB,

Thanks for the links to your projects. I'm also interested in the HV/cast idea. As far as my accuracy goal, I never figured out what MOA meant so keeping all my shots on the "average" size orange or apple at 200 yds with velocity equal to j-words is good enough for me.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

...snip... I never figured out what MOA meant so keeping all my shots on the "average" size orange or apple at 200 yds with velocity equal to j-words is good enough for me.
Taco,
You've described an "apples to oranges" 2 MOA ...lol :mrgreen:

http://nssf.org/video/facts/MOA.cfm

[cbrick]

JonB, I never figured out what MOA meant so keeping all my shots on the "average" size orange or apple at 200 yds with velocity equal to j-words is good enough for me.

This was published in Shooting Times magazine, works for me. :mrgreen:

Ask most shooters to define minute of angle (MOA) and you’ll probably elicit the reply, “It’s an inch at 100 yards.” A purist overhearing this will almost certainly chime in with a smug correction to the effect that a minute of angle is really 1.0471996 inches at 100 yards, but if you’re numerically challenged and ask nicely, you may round it off to 1.05 inches. As a lifelong nitpicker, I admire the precision the purist brings to the party, but as a shooter I think I’ll stick with a simple, useful, rounded-down inch. After all, even at 1000 yards the additional decimals don’t quite add up to a half-inch. I, for one, cannot hold close enough at that distance for the discrepancy to matter.

Rick

[taco650]

Taco,
You've described an "apples to oranges" 2 MOA ...lol :mrgreen:

http://nssf.org/video/facts/MOA.cfm

I see someone is paying attention! :drinks:

[taco650]

This was published in Shooting Times magazine, works for me. :mrgreen:

Ask most shooters to define minute of angle (MOA) and you’ll probably elicit the reply, “It’s an inch at 100 yards.” A purist overhearing this will almost certainly chime in with a smug correction to the effect that a minute of angle is really 1.0471996 inches at 100 yards, but if you’re numerically challenged and ask nicely, you may round it off to 1.05 inches. As a lifelong nitpicker, I admire the precision the purist brings to the party, but as a shooter I think I’ll stick with a simple, useful, rounded-down inch. After all, even at 1000 yards the additional decimals don’t quite add up to a half-inch. I, for one, cannot hold close enough at that distance for the discrepancy to matter.

Rick

Rick,

That's the best explanation I've ever read pertaining to MOA! Thanks!

[cbrick]

I am a shooter, not a mathematician. I have no interest in taking math classes to be able to jerk on a trigger nor do I desire taking dial calipers with me to the target. To me MOA is an inch at 100 yards.

Simple huh?

Rick

[btroj]

It is certainly close enough for all but a math geek or an engineer.

[runfiverun]

so if I say MIL..

[btroj]

Leave my Mother in Law out of this Run.....

[runfiverun]

:lol:...

[Bjornb]

Bjornb,
How the casting going? Looking forward to more on Bertha and the XCB testing.

Sarge,
I cast about 400 bullets during a long, hot and humid casting session this morning/noon/afternoon. I'm casting the NOE XCB using a 4-cav brass mould, and last session I had a large cull rate due to dropping the bullets way too soon. Today I rested the mould on the edge of the pot (it's heavy!) to keep it warm while the sprue set up; I waited a full minute after each ladle pour. Alloy was Lyman #2. Cull rate was about 5%. Heat treating tomorrow, then weighing/sorting and a little aging.
Larry sent me some bullets to try out but they haven't arrived yet.
So tomorrow I'm sleeping in, no ammo so no range trip. I'm planning on shooting Tuesday or Thursday. By then maybe I'll get my test thread back!:Fire:

[btroj]

Four Cav brass is a heavy mould. They wear me out quickly but the bullets are worth the effort. I only own a couple and don't know if I need more.

[btroj]

Ok Bjorn, I got a question for you.

Why do you think your reformed 7x57 brass shot better than the reformed 06 brass? I think the reforming process causes us some issues and the tight neck isn't as critical as we think. Does .002 neck to chamber difference really make as much of a difference as we think?

Just pondering and wondering what you think is the reason. In the end the "why" doesn't matter as much as the "it does".

[Bjornb]

I'm planning on shooting more H414/W760 and IMR4831, and I'm as always open to advice and suggestions.
Sorry about last trip through Conway; had to be considerate to the wife. We'll chew the fat next time.

The brass mould is a beast, but it really casts well and today I grit my teeth and kept on going. It's my only one and I probably won't buy another 4-cav. I have a 2-cav brass NOE 311290, the smaller blocks make a big difference.

[Bjornb]

Ok Bjorn, I got a question for you.

Why do you think your reformed 7x57 brass shot better than the reformed 06 brass? I think the reforming process causes us some issues and the tight neck isn't as critical as we think. Does .002 neck to chamber difference really make as much of a difference as we think?

Just pondering and wondering what you think is the reason. In the end the "why" doesn't matter as much as the "it does".

This will only be speculation; I'm really not qualified to speak as an expert here:
The 7x57 cases were simply necked up from 7mm to 7.62mm. Nothing more. I didn't modify the length or anything else.
The 30-06 cases were cut off to the tune of 7mm in LENGTH. That created a shoulder where there previously were (almost) parallel case walls.
Then, after FL sizing the case for the second time (this time with the expander ball in place), then trimming and chamfering, I cut the necks. To get uniform thickness (I cut them to .0125), the cutter took NOTHING off the first 1/4 inch or so of case mouth. Then it cut into the neck further down the shoulder.
I addition to this I used a K&N neck cutter with a carbide mandrel that also cut the "donut" off the inside of the newly formed neck.

So, maybe Norma knows a thing or two about making rifle cases, while "Bjorn's Brass Factory" is still in the early learning stages.

[runfiverun]

what they know is that chamber necks are cut on a taper towards the throat...

[Bullshop Junior]

I sure talk about finding the center of the barrel a lot....

Yes you do :mrgreen:

[Bullshop Junior]

Exactly Run, even a poor group or leading tells us something. It is up to us to determine what we are learning and how to grow from it. Thinking of it this way is there really a failure if we gained knowledge?

This post nails it, and really puts into perspective all the fighting I have been doing with the gun I am trying to get accuracy from, a 336 Marlin 32 special. I never looked at it as every failure is a learning curve.

[oneokie]

Gentlemen,
If you have an issue with another members spelling or grammer, either take it to PM's, or ignore it and move on.

[btroj]

Norma knows way more about making good cases than I ever will. They don't make cheap brass but they make very good brass.

Ok Run, why is that taper towards the throat important? We are all ears, err, well, all eyes......

[Bjornb]

what they know is that chamber necks are cut on a taper towards the throat...

Exactly. And they make the case neck follow that taper with even thickness. In making the wildcat case from longer brass you cannot control this detail.

[btroj]

I wonder if making the necks a bit thinner would somewhat help? I just keep going back to the idea that maybe we are holding things too tight and maybe giving the bullet a bit of space wouldn't be all bad.

[Bjornb]

Well, that's where Runfiverun stopped me cold and told me NOT to cut the necks on the Norma cases. Check what he says about using the thicker necks to get a better centering of the bullet in the barrel/chamber. If necessary decrease the diameter of the bullet.

[Bjornb]

Nice cases. What, a dollar apiece?

[tomme boy]

If we are talking primers, why not front ignitions? I saw some really neat test from some of the BR guys a few years back and the super low ES of velocity

[btroj]

I'm a rebel, I think I will thin a few necks and see what the rifle thinks.

I never was very good at listening to Run, was I Run?

[garym1a2]

A minute of angle is not a distance. Its an angle measurement. 1/60 of a degree. A circle has 360 degrees. That's all. If you want to know it at any distance just measure the length and divide my the distance and take the inverse tangent of that. A 1 inch group at 100 yards is 0.955moa!

This was published in Shooting Times magazine, works for me. :mrgreen:

Ask most shooters to define minute of angle (MOA) and you’ll probably elicit the reply, “It’s an inch at 100 yards.” A purist overhearing this will almost certainly chime in with a smug correction to the effect that a minute of angle is really 1.0471996 inches at 100 yards, but if you’re numerically challenged and ask nicely, you may round it off to 1.05 inches. As a lifelong nitpicker, I admire the precision the purist brings to the party, but as a shooter I think I’ll stick with a simple, useful, rounded-down inch. After all, even at 1000 yards the additional decimals don’t quite add up to a half-inch. I, for one, cannot hold close enough at that distance for the discrepancy to matter.

Rick

[runfiverun]

they have been doing front ignition for years and years.
I don't even remember who it was that was gluing tubes in 45/70 brass back in the day.
for some reason Elmer or hatcher come to mind.
anyway it works but everybody drops the idea because of the pain in the neck factor.

Brad? Brad are you out there?
one of the things we discussed when designing the case [chamber] was using parallel neck walls as part of the chambering.
this would of course allow straight trimming and provide a better run into the barrel.
if the chamber necks are cut to normal specs they are tapered and pushing that extra brass to the outside of the case will allow better alignment.
I have never had luck cutting brass necks thinner, cleaning them up or taking the high spots off has helped.
I guess you could put some thickness back..

[cbrick]

A minute of angle is not a distance. Its an angle measurement. 1/60 of a degree. A circle has 360 degrees. That's all. If you want to know it at any distance just measure the length and divide my the distance and take the inverse tangent of that. A 1 inch group at 100 yards is 0.955moa!

Your correct in definition but in practicality that four and a thousands of an inch may be important in a bench rest match (probably is) but for 99.99% of shooting it's meaningless. I'm quite content with an inch at 100 yards, works perfectly for me.

Rick

[Bullshop Junior]

Your correct in definition but in practicality that four and a thousands of an inch may be important in a bench rest match (probably is) but for 99.99% of shooting it's meaningless. I'm quite content with an inch at 100 yards, works perfectly for me.

Rick

Thats the way I always do it. 1" at 100 yards, 2" at 200 yards and on it goes.

[btroj]

Brad? Brad are you out there?
one of the things we discussed when designing the case [chamber] was using parallel neck walls as part of the chambering.
this would of course allow straight trimming and provide a better run into the barrel.
if the chamber necks are cut to normal specs they are tapered and pushing that extra brass to the outside of the case will allow better alignment.
I have never had luck cutting brass necks thinner, cleaning them up or taking the high spots off has helped.
I guess you could put some thickness back..


I just just have to ask this, mostly to irritate Rick but....

Does Sn content have any bearing on the neck thickness required?

[garym1a2]

At 1000 yards where you may need 20moa, that 4.7% error is an moa, worth about 10 inches of error at 1000yards.


Your correct in definition but in practicality that four and a thousands of an inch may be important in a bench rest match (probably is) but for 99.99% of shooting it's meaningless. I'm quite content with an inch at 100 yards, works perfectly for me.

Rick

[geargnasher]

I don't think it would make any difference unless the chamber was off-center to the bore of the barrel. I was always under the impression that was the reason for doing that. It was the only way to try to get it aligned up.

And when I said I can't get past the 2.1K range, I meant I can't keep it sub-MOA. I was out shooting my Mosin today shooting my 215gr boolit at 2400fps and I was getting 2.25" at 100 yds. I was not happy at all as this rifle will shoot right at 1.25" at 100 at 1900fps or a little slower. It slowly opens up the faster I push it past 1900fps. This is with water dropped COWW aged for 2 weeks. I have really good fit to the throat. The taper of the throat to the taper of the boolit is an almost exact match. I am using Lapua brass so it is about as good as it gets there. Absolutely NO leading whatsoever. The twist on this is 1-9.6" so it is really spinning this thing. I should be happy, but I'm not.

We can all seem to get to the 1.9-2K range for speed without much issue. It is from there that many have problems. I would like to see some post that shows how people are getting it done. I would love to see pics of how the boolits are sorted out on what is kept and what is discarded. How you seat your checks, and lube them. Case prep, seat the boolits pretty much everything.

There are a lot of post all around this site on how to get it done, but they are scattered from one end to the other and there is a huge amount of information scattered throughout regular non-stickied post. And if you don't read every single one, a lot of that info is lost.

I don't know, maybe I am just rambling

I just spent an hour and 42 minutes writing a response to this, and was stupid enough to trust the vbulletin software not to dump it when I hit "submit". I forgot how unstable this board is, will compose in another format and copy/paste in the future.

[PAT303]

I would appreciate,along with many others a few pointers or a push in the right direction in regards to plus 2K in mil surp rifles as per tomme boys post. Pat

[cbrick]

At 1000 yards where you may need 20moa, that 4.7% error is an moa, worth about 10 inches of error at 1000yards.

I'm not gonna hijack this thread and argue the point. Very few people have ever taken a 1000 yard shot including me. The longest I've ever shot was 500 yards and I haven't done that since the 1960's in the Marines. 1 inch at 100 is far more than adequate for me as it is for the vast majority of shooters, if it's not for you then feel free to use dial calipers. Case closed.

Rick

[Bullshop Junior]

I would appreciate,along with many others a few pointers or a push in the right direction in regards to plus 2K in mil surp rifles as per tomme boys post. Pat

Alloy, lube, powder.

[btroj]

I don't think it would make any difference unless the chamber was off-center to the bore of the barrel. I was always under the impression that was the reason for doing that. It was the only way to try to get it aligned up.

And when I said I can't get past the 2.1K range, I meant I can't keep it sub-MOA. I was out shooting my Mosin today shooting my 215gr boolit at 2400fps and I was getting 2.25" at 100 yds. I was not happy at all as this rifle will shoot right at 1.25" at 100 at 1900fps or a little slower. It slowly opens up the faster I push it past 1900fps. This is with water dropped COWW aged for 2 weeks. I have really good fit to the throat. The taper of the throat to the taper of the boolit is an almost exact match. I am using Lapua brass so it is about as good as it gets there. Absolutely NO leading whatsoever. The twist on this is 1-9.6" so it is really spinning this thing. I should be happy, but I'm not.

We can all seem to get to the 1.9-2K range for speed without much issue. It is from there that many have problems. I would like to see some post that shows how people are getting it done. I would love to see pics of how the boolits are sorted out on what is kept and what is discarded. How you seat your checks, and lube them. Case prep, seat the boolits pretty much everything.

There are a lot of post all around this site on how to get it done, but they are scattered from one end to the other and there is a huge amount of information scattered throughout regular non-stickied post. And if you don't read every single one, a lot of that info is lost.

I don't know, maybe I am just rambling

Amen!

That is exactly what most of us are after. How do we get that extra 200 fps while maintaining acceptable accuracy.

Is it the bullet? The alloy? Powder? Rifle? Combination of all these?

How do we know if our alloy is too hard or too soft? Does alloy need to change with pressure and if so, how much? Do we need a different BHn with each 100 fps extra speed?

Tomme, you summed up all I want to know. What is important now is finding some of those answers together.

[geargnasher]

I would appreciate,along with many others a few pointers or a push in the right direction in regards to plus 2K in mil surp rifles as per tomme boys post. Pat

This is important. It most often isn't a practical choice to just rebarrel the rifle in a slower twist if we want a more hundred fps with top accuracy. This is one of the reasons why I have been so vocal on this board about the UNDERLYING causes of our groups getting bigger when we go past a certain well-observed limit attributable to the bullet's rpm. RPM is a secondary cause of the effect called bigger groups at higher velocity. The primary cause is unbalanced bullets. They either are cast that way, loaded that way, or become that way when fired. All of these things are within the experienced handloader's ability to control to the point of not only "pushing up" the accurate velocity limit (or rpm Threshold), but to ignore it altogether, IF the handloader knows how to control them. If you launch a better balanced bullet, no matter what it's made of, the groups will be tighter at ANY velocity and will exhibit a more linear dispersion at longer ranges. Period.

So the whole "secret" is balance. Not low muzzle pressure, not long barrels, not secret squirrel lube, not some magically put-together rifle. All you need is a DECENT rifle (fairly straight chamber and barrel, decent rifling, good crown, proper bedding, competent shooter) and the knowledge to assemble/manipulate components for the sole purpose of launching a balanced bullet. If you do that, what "centrifugal" or whatever forces are going to ruin your groups for you? This is why I get so annoyed at the constant rpm discussions, they are going nowhere because they don't address the real problems, only a fairly simple and predictable way to improve high-velocity results using the methods you already are using. Valid? Yes. IF you have the option to rebarrel to a slower twist. Even then, slowing down the rpm will only restore a portion of the imbalance-related accuracy lost. If you don't have that option, or you want to get the smallest groups your rifle is capable of, you're going to have to learn how to tackle the balance thing. Then you won't have to worry about RPM any more. The only downside is that if you have specific goals in mind, you'll have to work everything in that one direction, as there is a narrow 'sweet spot'. If you want 2400 fps you do certain things. If you want 2200 fps you may well find that you have to change both alloy and powder, and possibly something else, to get the same groups.

How do you get a soft, delicate, lead-alloy bullet out of the gun at higher velocities without screwing up the balance?

Let's find out.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Yes, Btroj, another hearty "Amen!" to Tomme Boy's post here. It may not be what everyone who reads these threads is interested in, but it certainly nails it for me.

Now, let me make my point to Pat and Tomme once again, short version: RPM is a factor with what I'll call traditional loading techniques/knowledge. A big factor. Larry Gibson explains all of this clearly (including the thing about "traditional loading techniques") and in detail many times here on this board, and demonstrates it irrefutably as have most of us who've ever tried to go past 140K rpm and maintain 1moa accuracy, whether a beater .30-30 or a precision bench rifle. The RPM Monster will bite you. The fly in the slow-twist ointment is that it won't fully restore the lower-velocity accuracy potential, but it can go a long way help things, though, so there's one thing to remember. But I'm not really interested in that because there is more than one way to skin a cat, and difficult does not mean impossible.

Look, guys, I know how to get 2400 fps out of a .30-caliber ten-twist and maintain 1 MOA. Runfiverun knows how, too, even though he's doing it a little differently than I am, actually a LOT differently. I can even explain it to you so YOU TOO can do it. So can he. I don't know how to do it at 2700.......yet......without stepping up to a paper jacket. I want to do better. I can get real close to half MOA at 2400 fps in a 12-twist, but guess what, 2" at 2600 in BOTH TWISTS is all I can get WITH THE SAME ALLOY. Hmmm, mebbe dats the issue??? The rest of the HV with accuracy story should be titled "Launching a Balanced Bullet". Put them both together and BAM----jacketed velocity AND accuracy with cast bullets. This is why I resent RPM coming up, I'm not interested. It discourages people from finding the true answer to their problems. I know what the RPM threshold is, what it does, and how to work with it. What I want to explore is the one thing that makes it pretty much irrelevant, the one thing most of us don't know all that much about.

Can we finally move past RPM and discuss the REAL problem here? Can we finally show people who are interested how to get better HV accuracy without rebarreling their favorite sporter or collector?

Gear

[Bullshop Junior]

Its just like a Tire. If its out of ballance, it will wobble

[cbrick]

How do you get a soft, delicate, lead-alloy bullet out of the gun at higher velocities without screwing up the balance? Let's find out. Gear

A good place to start is taking a good look at your lubrisizer. Several years ago I did a test of 7mm bullets sized in a base first in & out sizer (SAECO) and a push through nose first sizer (Star). I took several of each to a friends machine shop and used the comparator to examine how straight each set of bullets had been sized. The difference was shocking, the in & out bullets were well off center (non-concentric). Some minor off center with some of the straight through but nothing like the in & out.

This isn't a plug for the Star, you could always use the LEE straight through. It IS a plug for nose first straight through sizing for a more concentric bullet. A flat bullet base against a flat punch pushing the bullet through . . . Straight. No ill fitting nose punches that often will not push straight.

If your bullet is non-concentric before you even load it into the case it won't matter what the RPM is though the higher the RPM the worse the effect of non-concentric will be.

I think a good place to start.

Rick

[btroj]

Well said Rick. Why cast a good bullet is it to size it into garbage.

Like the mil surp guys I have a rifle with a barrel on it. I want to know how to make that one rifle shoot as well as possible at high velocity. Color me goofy but I will spend 500 bucks on moulds, sizers, gas checks, powder and what not but I have a heck of a time paying for a new barrel. Matter o'fact my XCB rilfe is exactly the second barrel I have ever replaced, the other was on y service rifle for competition.

Somehow I think the devil will be in the details. Biggest issue will be in avoiding getting lost in the weeds because we are struggling with the wrong details.

Bassakwards would tell tell us it only matters when it does.

[detox]

Got some of these bullets ready for testing in the Remington VS chambered in 308 NATO with worn tapered throat. Barrel is 26" with 1/12 twist. I am looking for accuracy above 2000fps using v140, varget, 4895, 335. Flashing has been removed from tip of bullet and all loads have less than .002 runout. Sized to .3115 to fit worn free bore AND jammed into rifling for a good strait start.

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee395/aviserated1/DSCF8102_zpsae766556.jpg (http://s1225.photobucket.com/user/aviserated1/media/DSCF8102_zpsae766556.jpg.html)

Both V140 and Varget did verywell at velocities above 2000. 35grs for both powders averaged 2200fps. 40grs averaged 2500fps

Here is my best group.
http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee395/aviserated1/DSCF8108_zpsf2810459.jpg (http://s1225.photobucket.com/user/aviserated1/media/DSCF8108_zpsf2810459.jpg.html)

[btroj]

Keep us informed Detox.

[cbrick]

I'll be especially interested in the V140 results detox. I have 133 & 135 and if I ever get any 140 it'll be my next testing. What bullet are you using?

Rick

[detox]

What.............................................. .......the 30XCB 165 made by NOE

[Bullshop Junior]

A good place to start is taking a good look at your lubrisizer. Several years ago I did a test of 7mm bullets sized in a base first in & out sizer (SAECO) and a push through nose first sizer (Star). I took several of each to a friends machine shop and used the comparator to examine how straight each set of bullets had been sized. The difference was shocking, the in & out bullets were well off center (non-concentric). Some minor off center with some of the straight through but nothing like the in & out.

This isn't a plug for the Star, you could always use the LEE straight through. It IS a plug for nose first straight through sizing for a more concentric bullet. A flat bullet base against a flat punch pushing the bullet through . . . Straight. No ill fitting nose punches that often will not push straight.

If your bullet is non-concentric before you even load it into the case it won't matter what the RPM is though the higher the RPM the worse the effect of non-concentric will be.

I think a good place to start.

Rick

If you wanna see a librisizer that is off center, look at the old Lymans. Sheesh. I push all my bullets through it nose first, then put everything back together and lube when once they are the right size, and I don 't raise the handle all the way, just high enough to pull the bullet up out of the die, and set the next one down in it. Setting the bullet down into the sizer die 1/4 of a inch helps. Sizing bullets with my Lyman, just in and out, you can usually see with the naked eye how it sized hard on one side of the other.

[detox]

I size and seat gas checks dry nose first thru my lubrasizer. I finish pushing bullet thru using the sizing stem. I also sand gas check skirts evenly flat.

[detox]

Hollow RCBS 30 165 SIL nose punch seats edges square with base of bullet. If you have a raised sprue cut, you will see it thru gas check after seating.

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee395/aviserated1/DSCF8090_zps1e4282d2.jpg (http://s1225.photobucket.com/user/aviserated1/media/DSCF8090_zps1e4282d2.jpg.html)

[taco650]

If you wanna see a librisizer that is off center, look at the old Lymans. Sheesh. I push all my bullets through it nose first, then put everything back together and lube when once they are the right size, and I don 't raise the handle all the way, just high enough to pull the bullet up out of the die, and set the next one down in it. Setting the bullet down into the sizer die 1/4 of a inch helps. Sizing bullets with my Lyman, just in and out, you can usually see with the naked eye how it sized hard on one side of the other.

Do you think a Lee push through would make for more centered sizing than the Lyman? Also, are you referring to the 45 or 450 when you say "old Lymans"?

[RED333]

As I don't have a lot of money, who does, I have not spent money on a lube sizer.
I have read a lot of threads about lubes and have not found an answer that will work
for most of my loads, again money. Started out with Tumble lube and now I powder coat all my boolits.
So I went with the Lee push through sizer in the calibers I have, sounds like I made a good choice.
Yall have me now wanting to push my 7mm RM to the limit now, thanks for the kick in the pants
to get me going, gona be a long road.

[detox]

I'll be especially interested in the V140 results detox. I have 133 & 135 and if I ever get any 140 it'll be my next testing. What bullet are you using?

Rick

I hope the 140 works, because it meters very easily thru my RCBS uniflo with pistol insert.

[Bullshop Junior]

Do you think a Lee push through would make for more centered sizing than the Lyman? Also, are you referring to the 45 or 450 when you say "old Lymans"?

I have a 450.

[detox]

Do you think a Lee push through would make for more centered sizing than the Lyman? Also, are you referring to the 45 or 450 when you say "old Lymans"?

The Lee does verygood if you grind the sizer stem tip concave.

[cainttype]

I began this thread to find out what happened the two 30XCB threads being carried forward by the members here experimenting with the wildcat cartridge (Larry's proposal), the mould (designed by Tim to fit the throats he cut), and the rifles of various twist rates that they are using.
The whole experiment is a great idea... Guys willing to invest their time, and money, to share their results openly here in an effort to see how these variables affect their attempts at pushing high velocity. These are members sharing data, trying to cooperate in a group effort... It's that simple.
There are many here, mysef included, that are very interested in how their experiment plays out. What can we learn, if anything, from their results?
I have no intention of "pursuing" HV, but I find their reports interesting. I hope to see the threads return and continue receiving updates from the participants.
I think anyone with an idea, and the will to experiment, should be free to carry on in peace.

The animosity that "RPM" seems to generate here appears like a whole lot of noise about nothing.
Hopefully, all the members here will be able to discuss any ideas they have without being confronted or ridiculed by others that disagree...It's easy enough to start your own thread, if you think about it.

[lar45]

Yes with 117 posts and almost 2600 views, it would seem that many of us here are very interested in the project.

Thanks for your work.

[btroj]

Just loaded some 30 sil with VV540. I figure it is worth a shot, so to speak. After that I will try some RE 15.

I need to get busy and cast more bullets. Working with multiple alloys is getting to be a pain. Time to simplify and go to plain old heat treated range scrap.

[geargnasher]

24 bhn range scrap and the .30-sil ought to drill holes at 2500 fps.....ought to. That's an educated guess based on experience. You pull the trigger for me, eh? I'm still working up a mould drawing so I can shoot a decent bullet design made out of something other than 50/50 and that has a gas check shank sized right, oh, and has driving bands the right diameter for the XCB.

My philosophy with the new mould will be to try for 25 bhn by as much heat treat and as low antimony as I can get, keep tin around 1%, and do everything else the same as I had been before with water-dropped from the mould 50/50 +1% tin @19 bhn, just bump the powder a bit. Then I might have to switch powders, but who knows. All I want is a reliable, linear 1MOA at 2600 with a 185-ish bullet. If I can do that, it's on to other things.

Gear

[PAT303]

This is important. It most often isn't a practical choice to just rebarrel the rifle in a slower twist if we want a more hundred fps with top accuracy. This is one of the reasons why I have been so vocal on this board about the UNDERLYING causes of our groups getting bigger when we go past a certain well-observed limit attributable to the bullet's rpm. RPM is a secondary cause of the effect called bigger groups at higher velocity. The primary cause is unbalanced bullets. They either are cast that way, loaded that way, or become that way when fired. All of these things are within the experienced handloader's ability to control to the point of not only "pushing up" the accurate velocity limit (or rpm Threshold), but to ignore it altogether, IF the handloader knows how to control them. If you launch a better balanced bullet, no matter what it's made of, the groups will be tighter at ANY velocity and will exhibit a more linear dispersion at longer ranges. Period.

So the whole "secret" is balance. Not low muzzle pressure, not long barrels, not secret squirrel lube, not some magically put-together rifle. All you need is a DECENT rifle (fairly straight chamber and barrel, decent rifling, good crown, proper bedding, competent shooter) and the knowledge to assemble/manipulate components for the sole purpose of launching a balanced bullet. If you do that, what "centrifugal" or whatever forces are going to ruin your groups for you? This is why I get so annoyed at the constant rpm discussions, they are going nowhere because they don't address the real problems, only a fairly simple and predictable way to improve high-velocity results using the methods you already are using. Valid? Yes. IF you have the option to rebarrel to a slower twist. Even then, slowing down the rpm will only restore a portion of the imbalance-related accuracy lost. If you don't have that option, or you want to get the smallest groups your rifle is capable of, you're going to have to learn how to tackle the balance thing. Then you won't have to worry about RPM any more. The only downside is that if you have specific goals in mind, you'll have to work everything in that one direction, as there is a narrow 'sweet spot'. If you want 2400 fps you do certain things. If you want 2200 fps you may well find that you have to change both alloy and powder, and possibly something else, to get the same groups.

How do you get a soft, delicate, lead-alloy bullet out of the gun at higher velocities without screwing up the balance?

Let's find out.

Gear
Sounds like a road trip to me Gear,thanks for posting. Pat

[runfiverun]

the other two threads are back.
it took me 6 hours to clean one up, and thankfully i had some help on the other one or I'd still be there doing it.

Gear: your last post got erased [in Bjorns thread] and I left a message for everybody to see in it.


my hands [and eyes] hurt,,, please don't make me do no more computer stuff..

[PAT303]

Gear,when you say balance your saying match boolit alloy to pressure,slower powders to get case fill,boolit fit to throat etc?.With boolit fit whats best,a thou clearance or we want the sucker stuck right in there?. Pat

[Bullshop Junior]

Gear,when you say balance your saying match boolit alloy to pressure,slower powders to get case fill,boolit fit to throat etc?.With boolit fit whats best,a thou clearance or we want the sucker stuck right in there?. Pat

I believe by Balance, we are talking about actual balance, meaning the bullet is perfectly round, no voids, unevenness, bumps, dents, wrinkles, lube grooves full, no air bubbles inside of the bullets ect.

[Hannibal]

If you wanna see a librisizer that is off center, look at the old Lymans. Sheesh. I push all my bullets through it nose first, then put everything back together and lube when once they are the right size, and I don 't raise the handle all the way, just high enough to pull the bullet up out of the die, and set the next one down in it. Setting the bullet down into the sizer die 1/4 of a inch helps. Sizing bullets with my Lyman, just in and out, you can usually see with the naked eye how it sized hard on one side of the other.


I have a 450.

Dang! And here I thought I was having mould problems!
Sometimes the most obvious answers are the hardest to see. Thanks!

[Bullshop Junior]

Dang! And here I thought I was having mould problems!
Sometimes the most obvious answers are the hardest to see. Thanks!

Did I actually post something useful for once?

On mine, you can actually see that the ram is off center from the die. The die also angles forward slightly, where the ram comes straight down, and it can make for quite a headache. But its better then panlubing.

[cbrick]

Expanman, see post #101 about lubrisizers and non-concentric bullets.

Rick

[Hannibal]

Yep. I definately have some investigating/experimenting to do.

[Bjornb]

the other two threads are back.
it took me 6 hours to clean one up, and thankfully i had some help on the other one or I'd still be there doing it.

Gear: your last post got erased [in Bjorns thread] and I left a message for everybody to see in it.


my hands [and eyes] hurt,,, please don't make me do no more computer stuff..

Thanks Runfiverun. I really appreciate you restoring the threads. Much work was involved in writing them also.

[taco650]

Thanks Runfiverun. I really appreciate you restoring the threads. Much work was involved in writing them also.

+1. Can't imagine sitting at a computer for 6 hours for any reason!

[dtknowles]

+1. Can't imagine sitting at a computer for 6 hours for any reason!

I guess you will never make it as a CAD draftsman or a stock analyst.

Tim

[leftiye]

Tim, Gosh, I'd just hafta cry for a week!

R5R - Wow, I'd call that going the extra mile.

[taco650]

I guess you will never make it as a CAD draftsman or a stock analyst.

Tim

Nope! If it can't be drawn on a napkin, it's over my head LOL! I'm happy to let the brainiacs do the heavy lifting as long as they can translate it into layman's terms.

However, spending hours at the reloading bench or casting & smelting seems to be no problem for me.

[taco650]

Tim, Gosh, I'd just hafta cry for a week!

R5R - Wow, I'd call that going the extra mile.

Me too, thanks.

[runfiverun]

No problem I got kinda voluntold :lol:
just kidding this is one of the best threads the site has seen in a long,long time

i like to think Felix is watching these discussions and is probably enjoying them
or shaking his head knowing the answer is the /a simple one

[Love Life]

No problem I got kinda voluntold :lol:
just kidding this is one of the best threads the site has seen in a long,long time

i like to think Felix is watching these discussions and is probably enjoying them
or shaking his head knowing the answer is the /a simple one

I too like to think Felix is watching. Brilliance in the basics.