.38 Snubby quandry

[Blackwater]

I have an old pre-'72 (1968 yr. of mfg.) Colt Detective Special snubby .38. I want to carry this in a coat pocket during cold weather for self defense. In another life, I carried a S&W M-60 on my ankle as a backup, and loaded it with 7.6 gr. Blue Dot and some old Taurus (yes, that's not a typo!) 158 gr. soft SWCHP's. These bullets had a very deep HP, and testing them with that load in wet newsprint, were pretty impressive for a snubby load. Got that load from a magazine, and I suspect it was more like +P+, but that's another story. My DS is NOT rated for +P ammo, so I'm stuck with std. vel. loads if I want it to last, and this is a very pristine example of a very nice gun, so I DO want to keep it in good shape. I have Lyman 358156 GCSWC in solid and HP, their 358429 SWC, and a Lee 358-150-SWCHP that actually weighs 142 gr. nominal when cast of WW's. These 4 bullets are all I'm considering. Don't want to go lighter because the vel. achieved by them in a snubby just can't justify sacrificing the bullet wt. & penetration. Either of the HP's WILL expand, if not enthusiastically, at snubby velocities, but penetration suffers more than I want it to. With all the meth monsters out there, who are immune from shock, or practically so, I think I want to stick with a heavier SWC with broad a flat point as possible. That leaves the solid 358156 and the Keith bullet. Data is everywhere in the manuals, so I think I'm going to have to chrono them and see what can be done, which will always be the final arbiter. The only other alternative I'm seriously considering, based on a fair amount of experience shooting living things with the .38, is the full WC - something like the 358495, 358091 or the Lee 358-248-WC. C. E. Harris liked this bullet, and wrote a good article on the "full load WC" - the 148 WC over 3.5 gr. BE powder. He never said much about whether he might have had occasion to use it on a real life adverssary, but it looks to me like if I can't use shock, and need to cut nerves, blood vessels, etc. that WC may work like a cookie cutter, with the broad, full diameter sharp, cutting shoulder poking the biggest and best hole and produce the biggest and fastest leaking hole, especially if cast a bit on the hard side to keep that sharp cutting shoulder working as deeply as possible. I've autopsied over 300 deer, easily, and know what rifles can and will do, and various bullets, but this is a bit of a new field for me. With little to go on other than theory, and what testing I'll be doing, I can't help but wonder if any of you have ever had experience with these loads that might help me. I know there's a lot of experienced people here, and surely someone has some at least related experience that might help. Anyone killed deer or pigs with these in a 4" or shorter .38? Where were they hit and what was their reaction? Sorry to ask for the gory details, but .... that's ultimately what shooting always winds up being about, in the end - being prepared to go home rather than to the morgue.

Can anyone help me with this??? 358156 or similar, the Keith bullet, and the WC???

[jmort]

Even at around 800 fps a factory wadcutter will go through 24" of ballistic gelatin. I am a big fan. Great straight line penetration and max meplat.

[Outpost75]

Back in the day when DC MPD, Baltimore, Boston and NYPD all carried revolvers, Winchester New Haven and Remington Bridgeport both loaded "full charge" wadcutters in which the standard 148 HBWC target bullet was assembled using the standard charge used for 158-grain LRN service loads at the time (late 1950s through 1970s). Supposedly the purpose for doing this was to have a practice and qualification load which had the same recoil as service ammunition, but cops I knew during that time carried the full charge wadcutters on duty, at least in their hide-out or backup pieces, if they had to have "regular ammo" in their dump boxes or cartridge loops for rollcall inspection.

I heard this personnally from none other than Jim Cirillo of the NYPD Stakeout Unit, and Frank Magee, who was in charge of the firearms training unit also authenticated it during a lecture presented at the Mississippi Law Enforcement Training Academy in Jackson, MS during the NRA police revolver championships. C.E. Harris of the NRA was in attendance, and I'm quite sure that his appreciation for the full charge wadcutter originated at that NRA Police Firearms Instructor seminar.

You could do LOTS worse than the full charge wadcutter. Article here:

http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog_files/75f11fe4e235da7c69cabf94daa7dbd9-932.html

[Jack Stanley]

I would lean toward a wadcutter type that protrudes from the case somewhat . Might help keep pressures down and save the old Colt .

Jack

[Jupiter7]

The 358156 and 3.6 grs BE is a classic load. Roughly replicates the old 158grn police load. It's actually the only 38spl. load I use anymore. Seems to hit point of aim in everything including snub nosed revolvers.

[runfiverun]

the 358477 which is quite similar to the 495 only lighter [158ish] will penetrate quite nicely.
I have used it a few times on cows and pigs shooting down into their head from the top.
it will penetrate their skulls and continue on in a pretty straight line when made from ww alloy. [a lot further than you'd expect]
I generally use 4grs of 231 but have also used clay's to duplicate the velocity. [750ish from a 6" barrel]
this is the exact combination my little sister and m.i.l. both use in their carry guns, only with a slightly softer alloy mix.

the 358091 is a little flat nosed wad cutter which has 2 lube & 2 crimp grooves so may allow seating a little longer depending on your cylinders length.
I have the mold but haven't tried it on anything alive, but have ramped the little boolit up to some impressive velocity's in the 357.
it also tested out to be more accurate when just one of the lube grooves is filled at the slower target type velocity's.
penetration won't be a problem, stopping the little guy's might be.
anyway center one between the low side of some ones shirt pocket's and they will quit trying to do whatever they are doing.

[725]

158 SWC at standard velocity is a fine round. Good penetration, sharp shoulder for nerve and blood vessel damage. Carried them for years and never felt undergunned. I, too, carried a Colt DS and did all my practice with lesser powered stuff. At work, I carried a 158 SWC +P. The few times it was fired with +P never hurt the gun. Unless you engage several times a week, I'm sure you & roscoe will be fine. :) Good to consider it all, however.

[Blackwater]

Thank you, guys, and yours are EXACTLY the kind of responses i was looking and hoping for. One of the most neglected facets of these decisions is the "confidence factor." Being a fan of the .45 ACP, stepping down to a .38 snubbie or the little .380 I always have with me isn't exactly a morale booster, even though I know it's mostly where you hit 'em, rather than exactly what you hit 'em with. You've helped my confidence factor significantly. THANKS! I love that little DS. It was obviously put together by folks who knew what they were doing. Narrow barrel/cylinder gap, VERY smooth and not too heavy DA trigger pull, beautiful nickel finish (even though I'm not a fan of nickel). I can SHOOT this gun, and that's VERY comforting if I ever have to use it. I need to find just the right grips, smooth and that fit my hand just right, but it shoots well just as it is now with the original grips and an old Tyler T-Grip that I had for an old PPS I used to have. What I like most about the revolver is that it can be shot effectively from concealment inside a pocket if the situation was to warrant that. Autos don't function well unless drawn outside the pocket - jams, etc. - NOT a good thing in some situations.

I'll try the 156 and 429 in HP and solid form, but I believe the WC is what I'll be using. I just like to bounce ideas like this around with folks who know about such matters. Sure helps a guy make up his mind, and be satisfied with his choices. Experience and knowing recommendations are ALWAYS key to such decisions, and you guys have really helped. Thanks again. I appreciate the replys and sources very much.

[Dutchman]

Your velocities are probably going to average 700-750 fps at best with standard load data.

Hornady soft swaged wadcutter with deep hollow base. You load the hollow base reversed so you have a huge hollow point instead. Even at lower velocities you get dramaticly huge expansion due to the soft lead projectile.

In wet media I got nickel size expansion.

When I had CCW in Indiana I carried a Lady Rossi stainless 2" snubbie for the most part.

Dutch

[Outpost75]

I would lean toward a wadcutter type that protrudes from the case somewhat . Might help keep pressures down and save the old Colt. Jack

Jack is correct. If you go to the article by Ed Harris on Grant Cunningham's blog you will note that Harris uses the Saeco #348 double-end, bevel-based, 146-grain wadcutter and when crimped in the crimp groove with the bevel exposed this gives you rapid reloading when using speed loaders. This bullet was designed for PPC competition and is also highly accurate when driven to higher velocities in the .357 Magnum. In .357 Magnum brass I load 5 grains of Bullseye or Titegroup.

[Petrol & Powder]

Blackwater I think you're on the right track and I'd like to add a little.

I have a lot of experience with snubnose 38 revolvers and despite all of the noise to the contrary, I believe they are excellent choices for self defense work. I have a bunch of short barreled 38's including a Detective Special.

I completely agree with your assessment that you need to keep bullets weights around 158 grains. When dealing with targets that can hurt you, the 38 Special does its best work with bullets in the 155-160 grain range. You've got to get that bullet deep enough to damage something important and with a 2" barrel the best way to accomplish that is to stay around 158 grains. A lighter bullet will go faster but out of a 2" barrel you can't get enough extra velocity to make up for the loss of penetration with that lighter bullet.
I understand your desire to keep the abuse of that fine old gun to a minimum but I'd recommend a carry load that was on the hot side. You can practice with a load that has the same bullet weight to save wear on the gun but I would carry a load that is close to +P, particularly if you're trying to get a hollowpoint to expand.
I honestly believe that a "soft-ish" lead SWC will penetrate better, and may even expand better, than a hollwpoint when driven at snubnose velocities.
I would avoid the reverse loaded HBWC. I think you will sacrifice penetration for expansion and most tests of that concept show poor accuracy at even short ranges.

I am convinced that the "FBI" load has a lot to offer in a short barreled 38 Special. That 158 grain, soft lead, SWCHP pushed at +P velocities has a very good track record. For my carry load I simply buy the Remington R38S12 load (now labeled High Terminal Performance RTP38S12 but the same load) and call it a day.

As for the gun, particularly when pocket carry is considered, I think the hammer spur has to go.
The hammer is a serious impediment on a snubnose revolver. These things aren't target guns and despite what you think, you'll never shoot that thing in single action under stress. The hammer spur is susceptible to hanging up on clothing during a draw and will get caught in clothing if the gun is fired from inside a pocket. And yes - I have fired snubnose revolvers from inside coat pockets. The concealed hammer models like a S&W 642 work best, bobbed hammers work OK but the hammer mounted firing pin can trap fabric and hang the gun up. Be prepared for the coat to catch fire occasionally!

I've heard all of the excuses for hammer spurs and single action capability on snubnose revolvers, such as:
* I place my thumb over the hammer spur when drawing the gun from a pocket so the spur will not hang up on the pocket.
* I may want to take a precision shot and I will need the single action capability
* removing the hammer spur will lighten the hammer too much and the gun will misfire

The last thing you need to worry about when drawing a gun from concealment while under stress is where to put your thumb.
If you REALLY NEED that little extra precision gained by using the single action mode while attempting to use deadly force, with a 2" barreled revolver?.... You probably don't need to be shooting that guy.
Yes, removing the hammer spur reduces the mass of the hammer but it will not result in misfires unless the hammer spring is too weak.

Short barreled DA revolvers are fighting tools and over the last 80 years or so, they have proven to be very good fighting tools when used correctly.

[Texas Tinker]

I have carried a 3" barreled .38 spl or a 4" barreled .38 S&W on my hip while hunting for many years. Both are carried with 150 gr full WC's at standard velocity 700 -750 FPS. I have used these loads as a Coup de Grace for several animals over the years. I can assure you that at close range those wadcutters will penetrate bone and they do considerable damage.

[bigarm]

I have no idea which bullet would be best (although I lean towards the 158 grain bullets), but just wanted to say that you have a very fine revolver there, sir. Congratulations! I have always wanted one, but never have "pulled the trigger". Post a picture if you can.

[35remington]

Use the Lee 148 TLWC seated out to reduce pressures and gain velocity over what deep seated wadcutters can attain at similar pressure. Size to fit the throats. Tumble lube groove allow multiple crimp locations. Seat to same depth as 158 SWC's. The Lee TLWC has the largest possible meplat, more so than any other wadcutter and far more than a SWC or RNFP.

WC is superior to other bullets when speaking of non hollow point types. This is how to maximize standard pressure loads in terms of velocity in a snubbie using non expanding bullets.

[2shot]

I have settled on using the Lyman 358430 cast from 30-1 for use in my CC snubbies. Using Unique I can get 600+ fps out of these 200 grain RN and when they hit they do expand being so soft. To each his own but I shot a deer years ago at about 6 feet from the muzzle and to say I was impressed with this combo would be an understatement. In my Mod 60 and 642 they hit POA at 30 feet which is about as far as I'm going to shoot. Some say these will not penetrate car doors but I could care less about shooting cars, for soft tissue they work great when cast soft. YMMV


2shot

[pjames32]

Can anyone add input on powder selection for a 2" revolver. I'm assuming the faster burn powders are best, but what about muzzle flash. I've never gone beyond the 3.0gr Bullseye target for with 148gr wadcutters. After reading this thread I'll reconsider a wadcutter as a defense load for my "Lady" Smith.

[dualsport]

Your fixed sights may influence the load you choose. You'll have to try some to see where they're hitting. My guess is you'll need to replicate something similar to what it was originally intended for if you want to be 'on'.

[triggerhappy243]

god forbid, you should ever have to shoot someone high on drugs... but if you do have to, it better be in the forehead first. with all the adrenalin running, they could keep coming at you.

[triggerhappy243]

I have always used ww-231 with my wadcutters.

[Boogieman]

Colt rated the DT for 38/44 high speed loads back in the 1940's . Are the +P loads any higer pressure? The 38/44 load claimed 900 fps with a 2"barrel & a 158gr. bullet.

[35remington]

Colt will NOT rate a DS of the vintage mentioned for Plus P. A 158 at 900 from a 2 inch is definitely Plus P and maybe then some.

Look to Unique or Power Pistol. PP is listed with good velocities with 158 SWC's in standard velocity loads. Use this data with 148 WC's seating to same depth. See Alliant guide.

[Blackwater]

Bigarm, just hang in there on the DS. Be vigilant and one'll turn up some time. Just keep some cash back for the occasion. I found mine in the local gun shop, and was amazed I got it for $450. If I were willing to sell it, I could make a profit, especially considering its condition, but then I wouldn't have it any more, and as I said, I relly LOVE this little gun. It just "speaks to me," and it's operation may be due to someone's having already done a really good action job on it, though if it was, I think it'd show more wear than it does. My guess is it came from the factory like that. Some years they did make 'em right. I suspect it'd take some +P's, as has been suggested, but I'm afraid if I fire one, I'll want to practice with the loads I carry, and that just wouldn't be "right" for the little gun. I'm aware of the problems with the hammer and firing pin snagging on clothing, but that can be dealt with in a decent sized pocket that's empty of everything else, and mine will be.

Thanks again for the info and responses, and a special thanks for those that provided insight into their use, as was requested. THAT is the key to all this load selection business, and it's much appreciated. I just had no personal experience with it, and was sure some here would, and I wasn't disappointed.

So ... now I've got to cast up some WC's, and some of the others just for general principles, and to test on some media, just to affirm all this. I still really think the way I'll end up going is with the full WC, cast of WW's or maybe a little harder, and a full charge. That ought to cause a pretty severe leak, and as someone noted, should penetrate more than sufficiently for head shots, which I practice doing against the necessity one day.

Thanks a lot guys. It's hard for a .45 man to warm up to a .38 snubby with non-+P loads, but as stated, I''ve always known it's where you hit 'em that matters most, and this little gun makes that easier than most - a reason I'll never sell it. One doesn't sell one's own security!

[C. Latch]

Has anyone tried 800-x or 2400 in their .38 snubbies?

Anyone have any published data for those two powders and ~158 grain bullets?

[runfiverun]

I don't remember trying either one of those powders in the 38.
if it's what I had on hand I wouldn't hesitate to give em a go though.
800-x is pretty close to herco but a tick slower I'd use it's data if nothing else come up.

[Digital Dan]

Anyone killed deer or pigs with these in a 4" or shorter .38? Where were they hit and what was their reaction?

Yeah. S&W Ladysmith, Hornady HBWC over 3.0 grains of Bullseye at about 15'. Dead pig on the spot.

[Beerd]

Has anyone tried 800-x or 2400 in their .38 snubbies?

Anyone have any published data for those two powders and ~158 grain bullets?

look here for 800x data
http://www.tiropratico.com/ricarica/manuali/IMR%20Reloading%20Data%20File%20pistol.pdf
..

[Boogieman]

Colt will NOT rate a DS of the vintage mentioned for Plus P. A 158 at 900 from a 2 inch is definitely Plus P and maybe then some.

Look to Unique or Power Pistol. PP is listed with good velocities with 158 SWC's in standard velocity loads. Use this data with 148 WC's seating to same depth. See Alliant guide.
On page 11 0f Colts 1940 catalogue they state the DT is rated for 38 S&W special high speed & 38/44 S&W special these loads equal or excede present +P loads.

[Petrol & Powder]

Blackwater I think you've got a solid grasp on the situation.
As for grips, I can recommend the smooth rosewood Secret Service grips by Eagle grips. I had to relieve the left panel of mine to allow a speed loader to clear it but it's an easy modification with a sanding drum on a dremel tool. The color of the rosewood is constant all the way through the wood. After you remove the material, you just apply some linseed oil and put the grips back on.

118049

[C. Latch]

look here for 800x data
http://www.tiropratico.com/ricarica/manuali/IMR%20Reloading%20Data%20File%20pistol.pdf
..


Thanks for that link. I'm glad to get a copy of that .pdf, for reasons far beyond the scope of this thread.

[35remington]

BM, you need to peruse more recent recommendations from Colt or Grant Cunningham. Official word is Not Recommended. The OP is correct in forgoing Plus P.

A DS of the era held by the OP won't hold up well under 38/44 loads.

[C. Latch]

I don't remember trying either one of those powders in the 38.
if it's what I had on hand I wouldn't hesitate to give em a go though.
800-x is pretty close to herco but a tick slower I'd use it's data if nothing else come up.

I have tried both of them, using either ancient Lyman data (with ancient Hercules 2400 that I have on hand) or 800-x data that I got off the internet. I really hate pursuing 'found it on the internet' data.

Either way, both of them got up into the ~825' MV range with a 160-grain slug from a 2" S&W 442. Plenty fast enough, but I'd love to see more mainstream data.

[dubber123]

Can anyone add input on powder selection for a 2" revolver. I'm assuming the faster burn powders are best, but what about muzzle flash. I've never gone beyond the 3.0gr Bullseye target for with 148gr wadcutters. After reading this thread I'll reconsider a wadcutter as a defense load for my "Lady" Smith.

I carry a .38 Spl. chambered S&W model 640, and I prefer Bullseye for powder. While I am sure it's a +P load, my very soft 160 grain cast HP easily hit 875 fps., and expand beautifully every time. I have run to 900 fps. with easy extraction, but was beginning to see a touch of leading.

[Blackwater]

C Latch, Skeeter Skelton used to use the 358156 in .38 cases with 12 gr. 2400 and the bullet seated out to the 2nd, rearward crimping groove, but that was ONLY in sturdy .357 chambered guns. He was getting .38 cases for free, IIRC, and it didn't seem justified on an LEO's salary NOT to use them, and he worked up that load from below. It would NOT be recommended for ANY .38 chambered gun, though. 800X should work decently or better with 158's or heavier in 4" or longer barrels, but 2400 is pretty slow for the pressures of the std or +P .38's, IIRC. I tried some way back when in a 6.5" Ruger SA BKHK, and never got results on a parallel with Unique or some other, faster powders, so I abandoned it for .38's. Works great in .357's though, and I found it to be my most accurate powder in that caliber. FWIW.

According to my manuals, Red Dot looks like a likely prospect, and I have a preciously small supply of 231 left, and can't find more, but will try that, too. Always try to keep a stash of Unique, and it'll definitely be in the mix. I've got to see what all powders I have that I haven't tried with the WC, and will try the Keith 168 as well, plus some 358156's just for kicks and giggles. Main trials, besides accuracy and POI factors, are their performance in what'll likely be wet newsprint with a few glossy mags in front to simulate tougher muscles. Will also try some big hog or cow bones so I'll know the loads' true potentials if called upon for extreme duty. Thanks for all the help.

[Petrol & Powder]

Not trying to be argumentative here, just a point. It doesn't matter how Colt rates their revolvers. Regardless of what was fired in their revolvers, they are NOT going to fix it if it breaks. If you fire a HBWC at 500 fps and the gun breaks, you're going to be in the same boat as if you fired a 180gr +P+ load in a 40 year old Colt. They're going to say, "yep, that's a broken Colt all right"! If you break an old Colt then you've broken an old Colt. That being said, it DOES matter greatly what is SAFE to fire in a revolver. Breaking a gun vs. blowing up a gun are two different things.
I agree with the OP and others that there is no need to overstress a fine old Detective Special by firing +P ammunition in it. However, like the Airweight S&W's, I don't think the gun is going to blow up when firing a +P load. I wouldn't make a habit of firing +P loads in gun like that but Safe vs. not recommended are two different standards. Nor would I fire loads that exceeded +P levels; that would be reckless.
So to recap: Standard pressure 38 Special = OK
+P ammunition = Not a good idea, not recommended and clearly not a good habit
Beyond +P = you're playing with fire, it's reckless and irresponsible

[runfiverun]

it's also not really needed.
the super soft lead and round nose boolits are not conducive to stopping anything.
the main reason why they stopped carrying the 38 round was it wasn't overly effective in some situations.
changing the alloy and shape of the boolit will have a positive affect on penetration and consequently the length of the internal damage.

the number one survived gunshot wound in this country today is the 40S&W round loaded with hollow point ammo, it fails to penetrate enough to reach any vital blood or nerve carrying body parts.
it's survival rate is well over 90% if the shootee receives medical attention within 30 minutes.

[35remington]

Not Recommended by Colt is exactly what it is.....not recommended. That continuous use of ammo the gun is not rated for is ill advised goes without saying. So I'm not sure what need there was for clarification. I said what I said and no more. I said nothing about safety. I spoke about the rating of the gun for Plus P. If the manufacturer of the gun says no....who is a more authoritative source than that?

And it matters if Colt rates its pistols for Plus P or not, especially in this instance. We're not concerned with repair because all handloads violate repair warranties. We're concerned with longevity of a valued piece.....as the OP specifically mentioned he wants it to last.

Perspective, if someone wants all the consequences of Plus P usage spelled out specifically:

http://www.grantcunningham.com/coltammo.html

Clear enough? It answers the question of whether the Colt is recommended for Plus P use. It is not.....and the OP is correct in his assessment that it is not. Do with the info what you wish, but don't be upset if flaunting this advice costs you at some point in terms of shortened gun life before overhaul is needed.

Agree with R5R than standard velocity loads can be formidable. I'm a "45 guy" too, but I've come to respect the capabilities of a short barrel 38 loaded with wide meplat bullets even with standard pressures. It's well ahead of the small 380's in terms of power, and can drive an expanded or wide meplat bullet to depths a 380 cannot match. The 380 is challenged to drive a truly expanded bullet deep enough to meet FBI minimums, and the meplat of flatnose 380's that feed cannot match that of a wadcutter.

[Petrol & Powder]

I completely agree that shooting +P loads in an old Colt will not be good for the gun. I don't think it will blow a chunk of cylinder off.

[triggerhappy243]

What can the difference in std 38 spl. velocity vs. +p loads be? anyone do a breakdown in velocity differentiation? 1.46666 FPS equals 1 MPH. the average adult walks at approx 3.6 mph. or 5.30 FPS.

as far as plugging some slime ball between the ears with a 148 gr. W/C what is the difference between 100 fps? Still just as dead.

[Char-Gar]

Other than which is better blonds, brunettes or redheads, I can think of no more topic that has more opinions than what is the best defense load to use in a 38 snubby.

The 2" 38 Special is what it is and there is no sense in trying to make it something it is not i.e. a 45. One must accept the limitations that go with such a small package.

Trying to get expansion from the bullet is like a dog chasing it's tail, so I don't worry about that any more. Shooting +P loads in an alloy frame or older steel frame snubby is tantamount to gun abuse so for me that is out.

I am comfortable with using a full charge wadcutter. In this case it is a Hensley and Gibbs over 3.5/Bulleye in wadcutter brass. At least for me, this is where I come down on this issue, and I have been trying to figure this out for a very long time. Everything is a compromise, but if you are going to carry a snub nose, there comes a time when you have to make a choice and stick with it.

[35remington]

To get up to speed on the wadcutter issue, know that 3.5 Bullseye with a near flush seated wadcutter is rated as the upper end of the standard pressure range and is not Plus P. This attains around 770-775 fps in my own shorties depending upon which wadcutter is used. As point of reference, most of the Plus P rated loads like 5.0 Unique/158 SWC get around 850 fps or so from the same (Plus P rated) gun. 875 or 900 fps is really, really it in terms of velocity from a short barrel, even with Plus P, with any bullet weight that approximates 158 grains.

A flat pointed wadcutter at said 775 fps will penetrate quite deeply, enough for any shot, even somewhat obstructed ones. This is what makes a snubby 38 such a viable self defense choice. I have little patience for the suggestion it "only" holds five shots.....the idea is resistance to victimization, not promiscuous indulgence in a gunfight. I cannot believe that anyone bent on my harm will view my return fire from said wadcutter loaded 38 with any enthusiasm. I've got the "have a gun" part of self defense covered, in a caliber that does the really essential things....penetrates deeply with a bullet that combines said penetration with damage capability.

Shoot some of Chargar's mentioned loads on steel plates, wet phone books and small game or pests, if you can hit any, with your snubby. You will agree it really isn't that wimpy at all.

[Petrol & Powder]

The "have a gun" philosophy is exactly what we are talking about! There's something that we can all agree on.

I don't think we're that far apart.

770-775 fps with a solid WC or 850 with a slightly hot SWC from a 2" barrel? The goal is to stop the bad guy from hurting/killing you.
Now I don't think a few fps is all that critical. I also believe that the occasional five or six rounds of +P loads will not significantly harm a D- framed Colt or Airweight S&W.
So, I will not abuse a good alloy framed S&W, Colt Cobra/Agent or old steel Detective Special by feeding it a steady diet of hot rounds but I might try to get just a little edge by using slightly hotter rounds for carry loads. Particularly if they shoot close to the same point of aim.
I don't think that I absolutely need that edge but I also think the trade off is minimal. If my carry load shoots the same point of aim as my practice load and I only shoot 100 of those hot rounds through the gun every 10 years or so....I haven't significantly reduced the life of the gun.

A few fps isn't a big deal and is certainly not worth damaging a good gun. I'm not advocating beating up a good gun with hot practice loads. However, in a life or death situation, I don't care if I throw the gun away afterwards; it is like a parachute at that point. I'll get another one if I live.

[35remington]

If one wishes to "cheat" a little and get maybe 50 fps more with the WC load, seating it out makes it possible to get more velocity with the same standard pressure. Conversely, if someone wanted to get 775 fps with less pressure for practice, the same rationale would apply. Velocity variation would increase a bit with the less deeply seated bullet but with careful powder choice this can be mostly a non issue. This would get you closer to what Plus P can do and any velocity left on the table after doing this, as compared to Plus P, would probably be insignificant.

The WC does show a velocity (and therefore pressure) reduction when seated out using the same charge as when seated more deeply, and a few tenths of a grain more powder are needed to bring the velocity back to what the near flush seated attained with less powder. Please confirm this for yourself using a chronograph. Slightly increasing the charge not to exceed that recommended for an equally deep seated SWC is then used as a loading rationale, using standard pressure loads as a guide, such as 4.7-4.8 grains Unique (loading manuals vary a little on top charge for standard velocity ceiling).

If the WC's fit the cylinder throats closely this is not for extended shooting sessions where powder residue and some small amount of leading may build up in the throats and inhibit chambering, but I have no problems with a reasonable amount of shooting.

[Beerd]

so now you're telling me that I need to get a wadcutter mould.
first a hollow point semi-wadcutter, then a wide flat nose.
when will it ever end!?
..



;)

[Petrol & Powder]

Well it doesn't really end....but we don't tell you that right at first.
Initially we set the hook and then carefully reel you in to the reloading/casting community. It has proven to be a very effective recruiting process. :drinks:

[brassrat]

You'all hooked me and my first attempt with 358-495's just gave me a wonderful 1 1/2' (foot) group, at 50'. This was in a 4" S+W and was like, last weeks group in a DW. I blamed that on un-sizing. I hate my new hobby. Ok highjack over. Back on topic, my Cobra shot a 1" group with plain RN Fed. red box (rest). We all know accuracy is king. I hardly ever shoot this gun but carry my own SP 158 J's, +P, I bet.

[olafhardt]

The first gun I reloaded for years ago was a 6" 32 new police (32SWL) Colt Police Positive. The reloading data for 32 calibers was all messed up and I was a green as grass noob. My first 50 loads sounded like a 357 and just weren't accurate at all. I figgered this was to hot even though it was the listed minimum load. I cut the powder about10% and went through 2 500 round boxes of Hornady 90 grain lswc's even though the boolits were all over the place. Then one day a guy brought the first cronograph I ever saw to the range . He let me shoot across it.1135 FPS. 32NP ain't supposed to do that. It was loud too and the rifling was barely visable. It took quite a while to get most of the lead out. Now here is the point: After 50 close to proof level loads and over 1000 close to magnum loads that is still a sweet shooting little gun which seems to hit where it is aimed. I have wondered if the Colt system's durability and strength aren't under rated. I'm not going to push this one and have cut the load. The old Colts are wonderful guns and I like to shoot them but finding parts is tough.