Badger barrels, Green Mtn. barrels

[oneMOA]

Both of these companies supply cut rifles barrels and I would like to offer up an opinion, rather an observation of the two examples I have and my trusty Borescope tool to examine said barrels. Now this is just one barrel of each manufacture and surely not what one would call a critical test and evualation. Lets start with my 1996 Browning BPCR with the Badger barrel. Close examination reveals the rifling tool marks to be as smooth as the bore drill or the top of the lands, if you will. In other words as the cutting tools is pulled through the bore the cutting tool is sharp and makes a smooth and precise cut as the metal is removed on the Badger barrel. The GM barrel reveals a different story, of course my GM barrel could have been cut on a Monday or a Friday, but the tool marks are terrible. Now I'm not a barrel maker, but I do own a lathe and milling machine and I know tool marks when I see them. I have been making chips for 25 years and I would like to hear from other shooters who have examined the bore of match grade rifles with a borescope.

Not having any way to take photos of the bore with the borescope, I'm left to the limitations of the english language to describe what I see. A single point cutting tool as wide as the groove width on a .45 cal. bore must be continually dressed to keep the cutting edge flat and smooth. Production schedules dictate x number of barrels before re-tooling and changing bits. Hand lapping removes only a tiny amount of metal and is not intended or capable of removing serious tool marks from the rifling process. Remember lapping removes equal amounts of metal from the lands as well as the groves. The end result is the finish of the cutting bit and the coolant used determines the "Cut Quality."

I would seriously like to hear from others who have a borescope and had "Eyes On" the bore of these two companies. I am not trying to degrade any of the current barrel suppliers but only to suggest an evualation and add to my knowledge. Let the barrels stand for themselves.

I would offer the consideration of leading and the difficulty of cleaning said leading with the described rough tool marks. Many tool marks to capture lead as the boolit travels down the bore. Just my observations, what say you?

[aspangler]

In my experience if you got a rough barrel from GM send it back. they will make it good.

[Gunlaker]

I haven't bore scoped my rifles, but I own a number of single shot target rifles with Badger barrels and have two with Green Mountain barrels. The Badgers shoot well and feel smooth when running a tight patch through them. One of my Green Mountain barrels has a loose spot in it and I'm not going to bother getting that one chambered. I'm not too impressed. The other Green Mountain barrel is a 1:16 twist #5 chambered with a Dan T. paper patch reamer and it's superbly accurate.

Chris.

[Nobade]

OneMOA, I concur with what you have found. I have looked at thousands of barrels with a borescope, that being part of my daily life. They come in all levels of quality! They also come in all levels of price. If I were to pay as much as a Badger blank costs, I would expect to get a very good quality barrel. At the price level Green Mountain sells their barrels at, I would not expect to see the same thing and I don't. They do, however, usually work quite well and I feel are well worth the money.

The thing that really gets me are the "top notch" barrel makers who charge top notch prices and put out barrels that are incorrect. There are a few out there that give you a product that looks quite nice to the borescope but don't measure properly dimensionally. That has cost me plenty in the past, when I would have to replace barrels for free because some guy's new custom rifle wouldn't shoot accurately. This is why I will only supply barrels for modern rifles from two makers, and if you give me a blank from one of the ones I don't use I will not guarantee your finished rifle will shoot well.

Oh, if you really want to see an interesting example of dull tools check out a Bergara barrel on one of the newer CVA muzzleloaders. I got one in yesterday, and the rifling cutter was so dull it plowed up burrs on the sides of the lands high enough to reduce the bore diameter of the 50 caliber barrel to .496". Very interesting to look at, but I bet it's a pain for the owner trying to load plastic sabots in it!

-Nobade

[dlbarr]

I have 3 GM barrels - replacements for a production muzzleloader. Have had all of these for many years and never scoped any of them but they all shoot extremely well. I do have a bore scope, however, and think I'll take a look to see what there is to see. This is an interesting thread...

[Bullshop]

Nobade
So will you tell us the two brands that you will guarantee?

[oneMOA]

For those who may want to check out barrel replacement for their BPCR or long range rifle the choices are slim. In .45 cal. and 32" length (assuming one would cut 1" off each end) GM is the only one I could find doing a quick Google search. Apparently the demand is not there for the manufacturers. Plenty of bench rest and .22 cal. I would like to hear from anyone else who has a GM barrel and a borescope to chime in here.......or a Badger for that matter. The Badger may be a moot point since they are not available anymore.

[Don McDowell]

Contact Oregon barrel, they will cut the barrel to your bore and twist specs, plus the outside contour. High quality barrels at an affordable price.
Also Buffalo Arms has Douglas barrels available, and if they are all as good as the one on this new CPA rifle, they're as good or better than anything Badger ever turned out.

[oneMOA]

I was able to find this:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?149342-Wilson-Arms-Company-–-Bristol-formerly-known-as-Badger

[M-Tecs]

Krieger's are my first choice. The only issues I see is some barrel makers don't offer barrel blanks in octagon so you have to have them cut and some of the button rifled barrel makers don't catalog the over 30 inch barrels. Length is not an issue with the cut rifled barrel makers. With the button most will do longer for an upcharge. Pac-Nor will go up to 45"

[MBTcustom]

I agree with Nobade. Green mountain barrels usually trounce factory barrels soundly. I expect 1 1/4" groups right off the bat, and all mine have gotten better as they have been shot and wind up about 3/4MOA after they have been "broken in".
Of course, I never have used their cut rifles barrels (those are slightly more expensive than their typical button pulled barrels that you get for a bill but their run of the mill barrels are rough on the inside......and shoot better than factory 99% of the time. Of course, I attribute most of that success to properly cut throats with a piloted reamer. I don't know how the factory's manage to cut throats off center, but they are making an absolute habit of it!

If I'm building a true target rifle, my criteria is pretty strict:
I want it straight within .005 end to end (no perceptible hook at all to my eye).
I want consistent diameter end to end (no loose spots).
I want consistent internal finish with all the lines going with the rifling.
I want consistent twist rate (which I cannot measure, and have to trust the manufacturer).
I want the outside of the barrel to be running within .002 of the inside of the barrel (especially from the last 3/4 of the barrel).
Krieger has met this criteria consistently and I trust them.

Dig on the list on this website. Pay attention to the first three and the last two. I agree.
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/01/02/best-rifle-barrel/

[oneMOA]

Goodsteel,

Your comments bring to mind a story from my long past days of shooting rimfire benchrest. Many folks used a Sako action for their sporter class rifle and the barrels were drop in like the Ruger 10/22. The reason for the Sako action was that Jewell made a trigger adjustable down to 1.5 oz. I bought a barrel from Lilja and again this was a drop in barrel. The thing wouldn't shoot for beans. After playing with it for awhile, I decided to re-crown the muzzle. When I chucked it up in my lathe, I was amazed to find the bore was .014 off center with the outside of the barrel. I sent it back and Lilja replaced it. I sold the barrel without installing it and went with another brand of barrel, I think it was a Border barrel from the UK.

Later on as I became more educated on precision rimfire barrels, I would order three barrels, all matching and from the same outfit. I would slug them, carefully measure them, and yes check them with my borescope. One would be a keeper the other two would go back. These would all be recognized precision barrel makers and yes bad stuff goes out the door all the time and let the gunsmith sort it out and send it back if need be.

[oldred]

I have been reading this with a lot of interest because I have three Green Mountain barrels, a heavy 458 (chambered in 45/90) with cut rifling (it's the one at Midway, 1.270" diameter 35"), a .22 Magnum 21" with button rifling and another 45 caliber octagon 26" with button rifling that I got from Track of the Wolf. The heavy cut rifling barrel that's on my Highwall shoots much better than I can and I have been very happy with it but then I'm not a competition shooter and I have not examined it with a bore scope, the 22 magnum is on my scaled down "baby" highwall and it too shoots really good, certainly not BR quality but probably better than most factory rifles. The third GM barrel from Track of the Wolf will be going on my next (and last) highwall project which is also going to be a 45/90 like the first one but much lighter, it was already a tapered octagon unlike the other one which was just a round blank. If this button rifled barrel shoots as good as the one with cut rifling I will be quite happy with it but with every single shot I have using GM barrels this thread had me kind of spooked at first!

[Nobade]

Nobade
So will you tell us the two brands that you will guarantee?

Bartlein and Kreiger. I have never seen a bad barrel from either of them.

-Nobade

[Gunlaker]

Other sources are Ron Smith, and BRC. Ron Smith's barrels are excellent. I've seen a few good reviews of BRC barrels but have no experience with them.

http://brcrifles.com/brcrifles.htm

Chris.

[MBTcustom]

Bartlein and Kreiger. I have never seen a bad barrel from either of them.

-Nobade

It's like I hear an echo.....
LOL!
I haven't had the pleasure of a Bartlien yet, but based on the chart I posted above, I wouldn't hesitate. I guess the smith gets to trust a certain barrel, and the clients trust the smith, so the overwhelming majority of barrels that come through my shop are Krieger, followed by Green Mountain.
So far, every Krieger has been a sleeper. Just ream a concentric throat and turn a good square crown, and its in the bag.

[Nobade]

Other sources are Ron Smith, and BRC. Ron Smith's barrels are excellent. I've seen a few good reviews of BRC barrels but have no experience with them.

http://brcrifles.com/brcrifles.htm

Chris.

Since Al Storey (BRC rifles) is just down the road from me a bit I have been wanting to try one of his barrels. He doesn't make anything that I would use in the shop, since all we build are modern high power bolt guns. But my own personal rifles would be a good place to put one of his barrels to the test. Some day I'll get one from him to try out. I really would like to have one of his whole rifles!

-Nobade

[oldred]

Not trying to highjack the thread but I have a question for you barrel guys, I know a barrel blank is marked for the chamber end and of course that's the end I used but what is the reason for this? I slugged both ends and I couldn't measure any difference but is that supposed to be what the difference is? What if, for instance 2" were to be cut off of each end would that change anything? No real reason to know other than just plain curiosity, I would always use the manufacturers suggested end for chambering but I just would like to know why?

[MBTcustom]

Not trying to highjack the thread but I have a question for you barrel guys, I know a barrel blank is marked for the chamber end and of course that's the end I used but what is the reason for this? I slugged both ends and I couldn't measure any difference but is that supposed to be what the difference is? What if, for instance 2" were to be cut off of each end would that change anything? No real reason to know other than just plain curiosity, I would always use the manufacturers suggested end for chambering but I just would like to know why?

Ill take a stab at this.
The theory (that I cannot substantiate nor prove) is that the end that is the worst, loosest, or that got the start of the rifling cutter and is off because of it loading under the cut, is the one they mark for the chamber because when you ream it, it's going to remove a few inches of rifling (length of the chamber) but I suspect that high end barrel companies have this down to such a fine art, there is no difference that we could possibly perceive with a lead slug.
There are certain things that we cannot measure. Consistency of twist and depth of rifling are two of those things. However, I have spent a few hours talking to the engineers at Krieger, and believe me, they have the ability to measure all of these things and they do. On every.......single.......barrel.
I wont go into the specifics of the tool design, as I was warned this was proprietary information (not that they went into very much detail), but they succeeded in satisfying me that I can trust the quality coming from them.
It bothers me when I have to take someones word on accuracy and precision as it is very rare to find someone who truly understands these things on a basic level, but Krieger has convinced me that they do, and they care about it as much as I do, and they know much better than I do how to make that happen in a precision rifle barrel.
So when it comes to rifling consistency, accuracy, and precision, I have no choice but to trust the manufacturer, and Kreiger has succeeded in winning my respect and trust.
Not that they are the only folks that can make a good barrel, but I feel very safe putting my mark on barrels from that company.

[country gent]

I was told the mark was to make sure lines were in right direction and lapping cut more at start of stroke thane slwed its cutting as the stroke went longer marking "start end gets the minute taper in the right direction for best accuracy. With modern techneques and compounds its not nearly as pronounced as it used to be. I have never had a bad Krieger, Pac Nor, lilja or Hart barrel. I used Krieger maytch service rifle heavys on my M1As for high power competition and every one was as good as or better than the last. My gunsmith really liked fitting up the kriegers as they had extra on ech shoulder to fit and time, he also knew it wouldnt be a waste of his time fitting a barrel that wouldnt perform.

[Nobade]

From what I have seen you are not only concerned about the taper, but also which direction the tooling was run. Barrels installed backward tend to foul quite badly, especially button rifled ones. At least in the few I have seen that were done that way.

-Nobade

[oldred]

Well I guess I need to confess as to why I really wanted to know! When I built my first rifle I was unaware of the meanings as to the end markings and did not learn about it until after I had already milled the tapered octagon profile from the round blank. Obviously building a rifle from scratch is a big project involving a great deal of time and effort so a mistake such as this would have been unacceptable no matter high slight the possibility of it causing a noticeable problem. I decided to shorten the barrel by another two inches after milling the contour and with the chamber end being a bit too long to look very good before the octagon started I took two inches off that end which means that some was cut from each end of the blank, that's why I asked about taking two inches off of each end. After learning the importance of chambering the proper end I dug out the scrap pieces and was relieved to see that I was chambering the right end anyway, although it was just blind luck, but it left me wondering what would have happened had I chambered the wrong end. I spent a great deal of time and effort trying my level best to build this thing as close to perfect as I could and had I mistakenly had that barrel backwards I probably would have bought another one and started over!

[MBTcustom]

From what I have seen you are not only concerned about the taper, but also which direction the tooling was run. Barrels installed backward tend to foul quite badly, especially button rifled ones. At least in the few I have seen that were done that way.

-Nobade
That's the first I've heard of that, but it makes sense. So far, I've only chambered from the marked end, but I've never seen any reason to do anything other than that, as most barrels are both contoured when they arrive here, and I can't descern any manner of tapering to the bore one way or the other. (if I could, the barrel is going back).


Oldred, glad it worked out for you. I have to admit, that would have kept me up at night too.

[Chill Wills]

That's the first I've heard of that, but it makes sense. So far, I've only chambered from the marked end, but I've never seen any reason to do anything other than that, as most barrels are both contoured when they arrive here, and I can't descern any manner of tapering to the bore one way or the other. (if I could, the barrel is going back).


I would offer as a point of contrast that finding a tapered bore is a good attribute in a cast bullet barrel. Many of the best shooting Badgers barrels I have and in some cases other makers barrels have something of a choke in the last few inches of the muzzle. Pedersoli champions this as built in to their barrels. Ernie Stallman, former owner of Badger barrels proudly claimed the properly lapped barrels leaving his shop were choked.

Ernie shot in the Long Range matches held in Lodi years ago and told me a story about the tapered octagon barrel he sold to a local man to be installed himself at home. Sometime later Ernie saw the man and his rifle at a match - with the smaller tapered muzzle end attached to the action. Ernie asked him with a dead pan face how the new barrel was shooting. The guy said OK. He liked it fine. Ernie chose not to further confuse him nor embarrass him and let it go.

I have a very heavy Kreiger barrel on a highwall that makes up to almost a 15 pound rifle for Longerange matches. When you run a very tight patch through it between relays you can feel the tight area in the last few inches just before the patch exits. For a variety reasons, LR matches can really lead up a barrel and often you will see competitors "punching out" a barrel. By that they mean using a very tight patch on a jag and driving it through the barrel to remove the lead. In a match you have about 12 seconds to clean your barrel, pee and move your truck to the pits or the next yardage. So, A few passes with a tight patch and then some 'special' solvent and a few more damn tight patches and we're back to bare steel. Most all these choked barrels can be readily felt with the rod.

I have had and seen some good and bad GM barrels. One professional singleshot gunsmith I spent a lot of time with in a truck driving to and from matches had a GM barrel arrived to be put on a customers rifle. This was many years ago and before he inspected inside every barrel. Mike checked the bore to see which way it ran, if much, and to his big surprise there was a section of chewed up rifling. Just flat gone. Pulled out. Something had gone sideways in the button rifling machine and was not caught before going out.

There was a small run of 45 cal Green Mountain Cut rifled barrels maybe ten years ago and for what ever reason were not cataloged. Only button barrels at that time. These cut rifled barrels were an odd twist of something like 16.7 to 1. We just called it a 17". I don't think any of the twists are really even like 16-1 might not be exactly 16-1. Anyway, these barrels quickly got a reputation for accuracy. When you run a lubed patch through one of these with a clean barrel, the muzzle end feels just a bit tighter. I had a Hepburn built and barreled by John King with the first of these barrels and it was amazing from the get go! GM did not make a lot of them and word was getting out. So then sight maker and gunsmith Steve Baldwin got an armload of them sent to him and John King and I finished them off. I ended up with four. I have three on rifles now and one more is unchambered still.

I agree there is no room for tight and loose spots in barrels and a dead level bore is likely great! but for shooting cast there is nothing wrong with a choke either.
As to the question of looking at the bore with a Hawkeye bore scope, yes I have but not my own scope. Also, the image you see takes some experience to understand what you are looking at. There is a learning curve. I have a cheap bore scope that is good for some things but a Hawkeye is in my future.

-Michael Rix

[Gunlaker]

I definitely agree that choked barrels are a good thing. My most recent Shiloh has a noticeable choke in the last few inches. It's very noticeable with a tight patch and is fantastically accurate. My first ( and still unchambered Green Mountain barreled rifle ) didn't impress me much with the loose spots, but based on the fact that Zack Taylor had said he has seen excellent results with some of their barrels I decided to give another one a try. The barrel is great and, just as important, the chamber is excellent. I've got rifles with great barrels and not so good chambers. That's no good either, but it can be worked around to some degree.

Chris.

[John Taylor]

Just got done rifling some titanium barrels for a customer, what fun. Most people assume that a "choke" in the barrel is something special. Button barrel will be a little tight at both ends,( I don't know why) that's why most companies tell you to cut an inch off and the chamber takes care of the other end. Cut rifle barrel will be tight at both ends also because the cutter box is not supported as it enters or leaves the bore. Most of the high end barrels are hand lapped to remove machine marks and make them smooth. Was told by one target barrel company that they lap the barrel after contour because contouring can change the bore size. Pope did not believe in lapping a barrel but he did believe in gain twist. I don't believe gain twist has any advantage. A person that is good a lapping a barrel can make a choke in the bore. I have had good luck with most of the barrel makers be recently decided not to do business with one because he will not stand behind his work. He sent me two barrels that were .003" under size on the groove diameter.
I just got in a Shiloh barrel to make a 30" single shot barrel and they tell me to cut two inches off. Customer wants it 30" and Shiloh said they can not make a longer barrel in CM but can do one in SS. I'm hoping it will shoot OK without cutting it off. Had a Douglas barrel a while back that was not shooting well and cut two inches off and it shot great.

[oldred]

Wow this thread has been a real educational piece!!

[Gunlaker]

Thanks for the education John!

Chris.

[Pinsnscrews]

From my skill level, I look forward to working with Green Mountain! It is nice to know for the price, I don't have to worry about accuracy from their end, only my work!

Gunlaker, to bad you are in Canada, Otherwise, I would be happy to offer to take that barrel you don't want to chamber off your hands! Most of what I will be building is going to be for pistol length Contenders using a Barrel stub. So cutting the length around a bad spot is not a problem for my intended use.