25/20 and high velocity with the Ranch Dog boolit

[Bullshop]

117781
This is an attempt at a high velocity load for the Marlin 25/20 that has enough smack to anchor coyotes.
I was having great fun with the standard velocity loads with velocities about 1300 fps and harvesting cotton tail rabbits but I wanted this little Marlin 94 to serve double duty.
I think I have found a load that should soundly slap any Wiley that comes within 150 yards or so.
The boolit is the Ranch Dog TLC-80-RF. The target shown was fired at 100 yards with two different loads of WC-680. The group at bottom was 12gn and the group at top was 13gn. Pressure indicators seemed to show that there was still plenty of room to work at the 12gn load so I inched it up to 13gn.
The top group at 13gn was fired from my rickety rest and three different sittings.
I first fired two shots and they were pretty close to each other so I loaded two more then fired those. Then I had 4 in a nice tight cluster so I went in the shop and loaded another and retrieved my Ohler chrono. The 5th shot at the third sitting went nicely into the group and registered exactly 2100 fps on the Ohler. There are still no signs of excessive pressure with this load """ IN THIS GUN""" but I am satisfied with the load and will go no further. This is about 500 fps faster than any cataloged loads I have been able to find for the 25/20 wcf. It seems the 25 cal application of this case is far under loaded compared to the 22 cal version in the 218 Bee.
If anyone is interested in developing this type load in their Marlin and cant get the WC-680 powder the Winchester version is close. The AA version according to published burn rate charts a quite some faster burning. My load is right at about 100% density with the RD boolit seated to the crimp groove.
I have no idea how the Savage 23 series rifles compare in strength the the modern Marlin 94s so cant say if such loads are a good idea in them. This is my load in my rifle and may not be safe in any other so anyone venturing down this path use caution in developing a safe load to suit your rifle.
Incidentally the 12gn load went on average 1960 fps but from my rifle this load left cases rather sooty for most of the length. Going to the 13gn load cleaned up most but not all the black soot on the case neck.
Oh and I guess I should add that both loads used the Federal #205 magnum primer. I went with the mag primer for a couple reasons being the WC-680 is a ball powder that is a bit slow for application.
I have not yet tried standard primers but do intend to. I have often times found that the standard gave better accuracy but required a slight increase in powder charge to do so.
If anyone would like to try this boolit but does not have access to a Ranch Dog mold I am offering the boolits sized, lubed, and gas checked ready to load at $13.50 per 100 plus shipping. I can get 600 to 700 in a small flat rate box at $6.00
When Michael designed this boolit for the Marlin chamber he got it spot on at least that is what my rifle tells me. Seated to the crimp groove the ogive is ever so lightly touching the lands for a perfect fit.
I am sizing these in a die I opened up a wee bit to about .260" and this Marlin seems to not object to that.
Its about time to start putting some coyotes on stretchers so hope to report on this in the near future on weather it is up to its intended purpose. Happy hunting folks!
BTW if you click the pic I think it will enlarge.

[Bullshop Junior]

Very nice. Glad to see you are having fun with that rifle. Now, I want it back.

[Bullshop]

You will get it back but I doubt it will be a happy event for you.

[Bullshop Junior]

Thats just mean.

Thats better then I ever shot with it. I was gonna bring the scope and other stuff when I come in october.

[FLHTC]

Oooooh this is a cartridge that I love. I use 12 grains of N-200 or 13 grains of 4198 with a 257388 of monotype

[JWFilips]

Daniel,
Do you think that that is the best powder choice? ( or what you have)? Looks good but I have a feeling it could be best'ed
Just My Humble opinion
Jim

[Bullshop]

Well Jim I don't know for sure but I do plan on trying some other more traditional powders. I wanted to try for max velocity just to see what that was. The load data I have available tops out at 1500 to 1600 fps.
The traditional HV powders seem to be between 4227 and 4198 in burn rate. The WC-680 is in that bracket and I have a lot of it I got cheap so that is always a motivator.
I see this little lever gun coupled with its cartridge as a 150 yard gun and this load should handle most of what I will shoot at to that range. I developed the load with coyotes in mind so should be able to stay in the 6" kill zone to 150 yards or so.
Looks like accuracy is good enough for head shots on rabbits out to 100 yards too. With the standard velocity loads at about 1300 fps the accuracy is there for small game but the 100 yard trajectory is a bit of an ark so you have to call the range pretty darn close to make head shots with it past 50 yards. The HV load trims up that looping ark so eliminates the guess to 100 yards. Better accuracy is always good but at least I have something to work with that delivers acceptable accuracy to the usable range of the cartridge. Going by the target pictured that is something very close to the magic minute.

[JWFilips]

Well Jim I don't know for sure but I do plan on trying some other more traditional powders. I wanted to try for max velocity just to see what that was. The load data I have available tops out at 1500 to 1600 fps.
The traditional HV powders seem to be between 4227 and 4198 in burn rate. The WC-680 is in that bracket and I have a lot of it I got cheap so that is always a motivator.
I see this little lever gun coupled with its cartridge as a 150 yard gun and this load should handle most of what I will shoot at to that range. I developed the load with coyotes in mind so should be able to stay in the 6" kill zone to 150 yards or so.
Looks like accuracy is good enough for head shots on rabbits out to 100 yards too. With the standard velocity loads at about 1300 fps the accuracy is there for small game but the 100 yard trajectory is a bit of an ark so you have to call the range pretty darn close to make head shots with it past 50 yards. The HV load trims up that looping ark so eliminates the guess to 100 yards. Better accuracy is always good but at least I have something to work with that delivers acceptable accuracy to the usable range of the cartridge. Going by the target pictured that is something very close to the magic minute.
Daniel,
From what you are saying Now...I think you have that covered....I was going to suggest 4227 but looking at your data you may be on the right track
Well keep us posted of your findings.... Now looking it over a second time I think I would be hard pressed to best that!
Jim

[Bullshop]

You know Jim that with endless tweaking you can almost always squeeze a little better from any load. With this one and my equipment that last little bit of group reduction may take quite some time to find. I say my equipment because first this is a box stock lever gun to start with then if you saw my 12 oz plastic shaky wobbly rest you would have a good laugh. On top of that I have committed sacrilege by mounting a really cheap ( I paid $25.00 ) no name brand ( no one wants to claim it) scope that at best has foggy squinty lenses that make aiming something like looking into the wicked witch of the wests crystal ball.
So if I could just master those challenges I might get it down to a nickel instead of a quarter.

[leftiye]

I'd venture a guess for 300MP and std primers. I'm just finishing up restocking my model 94 cl 25-20. Put a 93 stock on it. Kinda a little cool with the thin comb and crescent buttplate (got rid of the Ducks Unlimited stock with the medallion, better wood too.). So I'll have to see if your load shoots well in my gun.

[denul]

Spear manual number 14 , using 1680, 4198,and 2400, and others, behind their 75 grain jacketed bullet, indicated that 1680 beat the others in accuracy and velocity while staying within pressure specs for the cartridge.

[JWFilips]

Ok, Now It's one of those "egg on my face moments" .....that's a 100yd target! :oops: ( didn't see that on the small picture) I thought 50yds. Looks like I'll have to get one of those scopes & rests!!! :mrgreen:

[Bullshop]

My scope and rest could be made available but albeit at a premium price because they will have been previously owned by a celebrity, A legend in my own mind.


Leftiye
So do you have the Ranch Dog mold? I would like to see your rifle after restocking. Sounds like quite an improvement. I had one sometime back with the medallion in the stock and didn't like it either.

denul
Could you tell me the top velocity given for that bullet weight in that Speer book? I would also like to know the pressure if it is indicated. What data I have available shows the 25/20 as being limited in top allowable pressure compared to the 218 Bee and I see no good reason for it when both are used in the same launch platform. With a previously owned Marlin 25/20 I had the 70gn Lyman boolit same weight as the Speer bullet going somewhere near 2300 fps with accuracy enough to explode the large feathered black vermin of Alaska at 75 yards from my shop to a brush pile which is where I dumped chicken guts after butchering. That load would absolutely demolish those large black feathered pests.
I took a smallish about 250 lbs black bear with that load once when I was out rabbit hunting when the bear made itself a target of opportunity. With that little 70gn boolit placed just behind and above the ear hole at maybe 50 yards it took the top of the bears head clean off.
I turned that gun over to my Dad some years ago before he passed on with the load data I had worked up for that boolit. I thought I had kept a copy of that data and may have but I sure cant find it now.
Eventually I will get back to that lighter Lyman boolit and see what its limits are with this new to me Marlin that is kind of a replacement for the other one mentioned.

[btroj]

You will get it back but I doubt it will be a happy event for you.

Man, that was harsh. I will say it sounds like something I would say to my daughter.

Junior, just think of the memories that rifle will include when you get it back.

[Scharfschuetze]

Wow!

That's way better than anything I've shot through my Marlin 1894 in 25/20. I don't have that Ranch Dog mould or a gas check mould in 25 calibre for that matter, so I may order some of those boolits from you to see if they improve that Marlin's performance.

I don't know how strong the Savage 23 rifles are either, but mine is extraordinarily accurate so it might be fun to work up a load in it too.

[Mk42gunner]

Dan, here is data from the Speer #13 for AA-1680 with their 75 gr FP: 12.5 gr for 2008 fps. This from a Marlin 1894 CL 22" barrel. They state the industry standard for the .25-20 is 28,000 cup.

The second ed. Lee also gives 12.5 gr as max with 1983 fps and 27,600 cup, no barrel length listed.

Speer #13 also give the pressure limit on the .218 Bee as 40,000 cup.

You are the second person I have read of using the little .25 on black bears, Russell Annabel was the first. I still don't think it is a very good idea, but it would be better than using a sharpened stick.

Robert

[Bullshop]

Robert I agree with you that the 25/20 is no bear gun. That wet afternoon when I went out rabbit hunting with the little Marlin and spotted the bear I had to stop and have a little meeting with me, myself, and I about weather we would attempt going after the bear.
I was totally against the idea but was out voted by me and myself so they decided to give it a try. I indicated I wanted nothing to do with this stunt but was forced to go along. They were successful in their attempt and now I forever have to live with their gloating.
If ever again faced with the same situation I will still vote no but still I am only one vote in three and usually those two other not so level headed parts prevail. I used to think when they became older that wisdom derived through time would imply some more reasonable reasoning ability tempered with a bit of common sense but the truth is those two fools haven't changed a bit.

[Bullshop]

Robert
Thank you for that data. It looks like I am in line with their work. It also looks like I was right about the industry established pressure difference between the 25/20 and the 218 Bee. I really don't understand why the difference because both cartridges have been traditionally loaded in the same types of actions and both are on the same case.

[Carolina Cast Bullets]

For all to have this:

25-20
Ranch Dog bullets

Carolina Cast Bullets
P.O. Box 7755
North Augusta, SC 29861-7755

100 / $13.00
500 / $49.50

bullets shipped for USPS (small or medium)

Jerry

[Bullshop Junior]

The 25/20 can be chambered in a 25wcf gun. The 25wcf was lower pressure.

[runfiverun]

win 680 was THEEE powder for the 25-20 for a looong time.
it's 1680 now.
I'm using aa-2230 in mine, I started with a sr mag primer and kept on putting in more 2230 [starting with 1680 data] until the rifle acted like it was shooting flat out to 100 yds.
it'll knock over the 100 yd rams on the half scale silh shoots without any drama, and clips off rock-chucks [and a bird or two that umm was annoying me] out to 75 yds off hand easy nuff so I called it good.

[Bullshop]

For all to have this:

25-20
Ranch Dog bullets

Carolina Cast Bullets
P.O. Box 7755
North Augusta, SC 29861-7755

100 / $13.00
500 / $49.50

bullets shipped for USPS (small or medium)

Jerry


Thanks Jerry! Since your price is $.50 cheaper per 100 folks will be way better off buying from you. I guess its nice it turns out I was able to advertise for yours instead of my own business. Guess I'll just try to drum up some business in another caliber. Are there any that wont bother you if I do so? I would rather not tread on any toes trying to make my own living.

[Bullshop Junior]

Hi Jerry,
Hope you are doing well & getting better each day ...My Good Friend!.... Keep up all your work with your RD moulds... After all, you were the first caster to offer them to the public ( those that didn't buy moulds from Michael! )

???????

[Bullshop]

Wow almost seems like a conspiracy!
JWFilips and Jerry you can have this thread I am done here. I will start a new thread to advertise my wares.
Jerry I am sorry if I offended you by offering to sell some Ranch Dog bullets.
When Michael Ranch Dog sent me one of each of his mold to supply his customers with samples I was doing him a service. I was not aware that since Michael quit offering his molds I was supposed to stop offering that service.
If you want to discuss grandfather rights to selling boolits I guess I would win since I have been selling here on castboolits longer than any member.
No matter though you go right ahead and take this one over and I will go somewhere else.
I just didn't expect the rudeness from someone that asked us for help to get him going.

[leftiye]

Robert
Thank you for that data. It looks like I am in line with their work. It also looks like I was right about the industry established pressure difference between the 25/20 and the 218 Bee. I really don't understand why the difference because both cartridges have been traditionally loaded in the same types of actions and both are on the same case.

In the same gun,or one equally strong, there is no way the Bee's pressures wouldn't bee safe in the 25-20. Think of all the cartridges the Marlin 94 is chambered for that are both bigger diameter case head size, and run 40,000 or 50,000 psi.. Actually you only have to think .44 mag. .357 mag is the same headsize. One can do almost as they please, anything within reason with the 25-20 in the 94.

[JWFilips]

Wow almost seems like a conspiracy!
JWFilips and Jerry you can have this thread I am done here. I will start a new thread to advertise my wares.
Jerry I am sorry if I offended you by offering to sell some Ranch Dog bullets.
When Michael Ranch Dog sent me one of each of his mold to supply his customers with samples I was doing him a service. I was not aware that since Michael quit offering his molds I was supposed to stop offering that service.
If you want to discuss grandfather rights to selling boolits I guess I would win since I have been selling here on castboolits longer than any member.
No matter though you go right ahead and take this one over and I will go somewhere else.
I just didn't expect the rudeness from someone that asked us for help to get him going.

Hi Daniel,
I guess this is one of those times when the Emotionless "internet" messes up and make words sound wrong.
Please understand this was no disrespect to you.
Jerry has been recovering for a bad stroke so just to see him post here is amazing. I was only sending words of encouragement to him and I guess it didn't sound right you must have taken it the wrong way.

I'm very sorry I upset you or messed up your thread.
You have been so helpful to me over the past I would never do anything to change our friendship.
Please forgive me if I offended you.
Jim


I really do not know what the timetable was for rd boolits I just know a number of years ago I contacted Jerry and asked him if he would start casting .32 cal RD pistol bullets and he got one & did so

[Bullshop]

Forgiven Jim! I didn't know about Jerry's condition and I wish him the best too.

[DonH]

I too am a believer in that 680 load in .25-20. Not so long ago I had a Savage 23B and, tho I never seriously tried cast bullets in it, the rifle was very accurate with Hornady 60gr sp and 13gr WC680. Easily decapitated prairie dogs at up to 80-90 yards. I got the load from NRA reload handbook ca. 1970s. It is a fairly hot load.

[Bullshop]

DonH
Which of the 680 powders were you using? OOPS I see now it was the WC-680. I find it interesting that even though I had no load data available for any of the 680 powders I worked up to the same 13gn load albeit with an 80gn cast boolit instead of a 70gn jacketed bullet.
I do also have a few pounds of Win 680 but have not yet tried it because I have way more of the WC-680. In the end I may well find that they are the same.
I am out of AA-1680 but my burn rate charts show it as being several positions on the chart faster burning.
Eventually I will work up another load for the Lyman 70gn boolit. Since the slower WC-680 seemed about optimum in burn rate for the 80gn boolit giving about top end pressure at 100% load density perhaps the slightly faster AA-1680 will be about optimum for the lighter 70gn Lyman boolit.

[w30wcf]

Bullshop,
Thank you for starting this thread and sharing your results. The .25-20 is one of my favorites.:) I too have wondered about the difference in the 218 Bee and .25-20 pressures. It would seem that the .25-20 could run at 218 Bee statistics if needed....with the right bullet of course.

One thing I do know is that my lot of AA1680 is slower burning than the lot of Winchester 680 that I have....at least in the .22 Hornet. It takes 13.5 grs of 1680 to equal the velocity that W680 produces at 11.5 grs. under a 47 gr. cast bullet.

To date my fastest cast bullet load in my 1927 vintage '92 (relined) was 2,268 f.p.s. with 15 grs. (capacity load) of 1680/WSR under a 72.5 gr 257420 bullet. It shot reasonably well at 50 yards (1 1/2-2") with the tang sight at my 70+ yr old eyes. I had though about trying some W680, backing off 20% and going up from there to see what would happen.

With the Ranch Dog bullet my best results to date has been with a capacity load of 13/RL7 giving 1,910 f.p.s. and 1 1/2" 5 shot groups at 50 yds. I must say though, that I haven't tried the 1680 nor W680 yet. I need to do that before the snow flies.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/25-20RanchDogjpg.jpg

w30wcf

[Bullshop Junior]

That is a pretty impressive mushroom!!

[Bullshop]

w30wcf
Ouch!! That should make a hole.
I have wondered why the burn rate chart I have lists AA1680 as being so much faster than the other two 680 offerings. I have also wondered if its true. I had always thought that wc-680 was just a surplus AA1680 but was baffled by the burn rate chart.
I am glad to hear of your experience with this.
I see you are using quite a soft 50/1 alloy and it looks to be expanding nicely. I am quench hardening a COWW type alloy so my boolits should test out about BHN-20 but I have not tested any yet.
With this load and even with hard boolits the big meplate of the RD design does its work. Night before last I went out rabbit hunting and shot six cottontails with this load. No shots were longer than 50 yards. Head shots pretty much took the whole head. Anything that missed the head and landed back near the shoulder destroyed the front half of the rabbit beyond use. That big flat face on this boolit does some devastating work even hard and non expanding. I am anxious to try it on a coyote.
I have been anxiously awaiting 10/1 as my beginning date to start stretching coyotes but couldn't get out today but hope to break away for a hunt tomorrow.

[w30wcf]

Bullshop,
My lot of AA-1680 is probably 10 years or so old. As we know, with any new lot of powder, to start, the initial charge weight should be reduced....

That being said, based on your results (2100 f.p.s. / 13 / WC680) with a heavier 85 gr or so bullet and my results with AA1680 with a lighter bullet as indicated above, I would think it would take 15 grs. of my lot of 1680 to reach approx. 2100 with the RD bullet although I doubt that one coul get that much 1680 in the case and still be able to seat the RD bullet to its normal seating depth.

One of the reasons for using the softer 50/1 alloy with the RD bullet is that my rifle doesn't have enough throat to allow a cartridge loaded with the RD bullet to chamber without heavy engraving of the nose. With hard alloys, it needs to be seated deeper but with 50/1, I can close the action with just a bit of resistance at the normal seating depth.

Back in the mid 80's I found that a 50/1 bullet shot pretty much as well in the .22 Hornet at 2,400 f.p.s. as did harder bullets. The same seems to be true, at least so far in the .25-20.......

w30wcf

[Bullshop]

That's interesting because in my rifle the RD design is a perfect fit with no real engraving when chambering.
As you said with my load there is no more room for powder with the 13gn charge as its already at 100% capacity.
I have another 85gn design that was a custom group buy about 10 years ago. This design has dual crimp grooves to accommodate rifles with throats of varying lengths. I seat this design to the bottom groove for the longer OAL and it chambers freely without engraving to any degree. It too is a gas check design.

[Bullshop Junior]

The ranch dog 32 bullet engraves heavily in my 336 32 special. It also hits the target sideways.

[paul edward]

Was that a black or brown bear those other fellers shot with your 25/20?

[303Guy]

The ranch dog 32 bullet engraves heavily in my 336 32 special. It also hits the target sideways.Did you get that sorted out? Why would it have hit sideways?

I've been following this thread because the idea of a cast 25 cal appeals to me and the 25/20 sounds just about ideal. But I don't have one. I do have a 25/303 with a 1 in 10 twist. See where this is going? :roll: Ok so it's not a light rifle but it's a 25. So I'm thinking a light load of Trail Boss or H4227. Would the large case capacity be a detriment? The velocities you folks are getting with the 25/20 sounds just about right and would be what I would hope for. (It's not like I need another cast boolit project when I haven't even started casting for my 303's :mrgreen:).

[square butte]

303Guy - If you haven't already - Check out the Marlin Owners website and the 25-20 Reloaders forum there. 98+ pages of excellent info on 25-20 reloading. It'll take you a while to get through it all. But well worth you time.

[Bullshop Junior]

Did you get that sorted out? Why would it have hit sideways?

I've been following this thread because the idea of a cast 25 cal appeals to me and the 25/20 sounds just about ideal. But I don't have one. I do have a 25/303 with a 1 in 10 twist. See where this is going? :roll: Ok so it's not a light rifle but it's a 25. So I'm thinking a light load of Trail Boss or H4227. Would the large case capacity be a detriment? The velocities you folks are getting with the 25/20 sounds just about right and would be what I would hope for. (It's not like I need another cast boolit project when I haven't even started casting for my 303's :mrgreen:).

It is still puzzling me very much.

[Bullshop]

Was that a black or brown bear those other fellers shot with your 25/20?
That particular bear was a black but more than one grizzly has fallen to old B00 my first year production Marlin 45/70.

[Bullshop]

Did you get that sorted out? Why would it have hit sideways?

I've been following this thread because the idea of a cast 25 cal appeals to me and the 25/20 sounds just about ideal. But I don't have one. I do have a 25/303 with a 1 in 10 twist. See where this is going? :roll: Ok so it's not a light rifle but it's a 25. So I'm thinking a light load of Trail Boss or H4227. Would the large case capacity be a detriment? The velocities you folks are getting with the 25/20 sounds just about right and would be what I would hope for. (It's not like I need another cast boolit project when I haven't even started casting for my 303's :mrgreen:).
The 1/10" twist might make high velocity a little tougher but still doable. I think the Marlin 25/20 uses a 1/14" twist. But with that 1/10" you will be able to shoot boolits like the RCBS 120gn if a bit more clout is needed over the lighter boolits the 1/14" twist is limited to. I really like that 120gn RCBS design.