Tappers for the Master Caster

[HATCH]

I figured I would start a new thread to discuss this since we have been discussing this in another thread.

I have a idea that I am sure that will work but I have to order the parts in.

Basic parts
(1) Air cylinder -

6498K135 (http://www.mcmaster.com/#)
Round Body Air Cylinder, Nose-Mount, Spring Return, 5/8" Bore, 1" Stroke



(2) Air Valve - I am gonna just use what I have
(3) Smart relay - Veris same one as I use on all my little projects
(4) limit switch

The object of this discussion is to design and implement a "tapper" that will tap the mold and free any stuck boolits.
This can be seen on this Youtube video - > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0TWNmgEMnM

My plan is to install the limit switch at the bottom of the stroke. When the mold carrier hits the bottom of the stoke it will engage the limit switch which will energize the smart relay.
The smart relay is set to do repeat function at X amount of milliseconds. I say X amount because at this time I don't know what that amount is.
The smart relay will cycle the air valve and "pulse" the air cylinder.
On the video he used two tappers. One for the mold and one for the sprue.
I plan to just use one tapper to start with. The basic design will allow you to do multiple tappers should you want to.
The reason I went with a separate limit switch as I wanted a design that could be used with any automation setup.

I will make a brass piece to fit over the shaft of the cylinder. I chose brass because I wanted it to wear before the carrier did.

Yes I could just edit the PLC program to doing the tapping for me but then it wouldn't be as easy for other people to duplicate.

The relay will do as short as .1 seconds so that is where I will start.

[ReloaderFred]

For my Mark 6 Bullet Master, I use these for tappers: http://www.zoro.com/i/G1990152/

They may be a little long for your use, but they have other pistons, and shipping is free with a $25.00 order.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[HATCH]

How did you handle the tapping?

[Tazza]

That is exactly what i was going to use on mine. I have a pile of little single acting cylinders about that size.

I don't know if just one is enough though. You may need to tap both sides to get reliable dropping.

[HATCH]

If you look at the video he does the sprue and the left side

[Tazza]

I did see the striking of the sprue plate, i just wonder if it is enough contact to shake the mold half its self. I wanted to tap both sides together, but any vibration is better than than none, it only needs a little to get them to fall most of the time

[HATCH]

I plan to polish all my molds and then do the tapper on the left side.
But you know that the right side is normally the one that sticks most of the time.

I figure its better then what we have now, which is nothing.

Going on vacation next week then its full blown production.

[big bore 99]

I must say, pretty ingenius. I spent my whole life as a tool and die maker and have built some automatic machinery. Great job too on the sprue cut off and reset.

[Tazza]

Mine sticks on the right side too, I'm going to give polishing a go then smoke them after and see how it goes.

big bore 99 - It sure did evolve quite well from a hand operated version, to air, then to automatic. I wonder where it will end up and how reliable it can get.

[ReloaderFred]

If the tapper strikes the left carrier from the side, it will knock a stuck bullet out of the right mold half. When I'm casting with my Master Caster (which is rare anymore), I keep a small plastic mallet laying next to the left side of the Master Caster, and when a bullet gets stuck, I just pick up the mallet with my left hand and gently tap the side of the left carrier. It normally only takes one tap to jar it loose. I'm calling them left and right as I look at them while casting.

On the Mark 6 Bullet Master, the tapper strikes the sprue cutter and the right half of the mold as you're looking at it, just as the sprue cutter starts to move and has just cut the sprue. There are also a pair of tappers at the bottom of the carrier wheel that give it another tap when the molds are being held open to knock out any bullet that is still stuck in a mold. When all three tappers are working, it does a pretty good job of emptying the molds and getting them ready for the next pour.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Tazza]

Thanks for the info. I didn't think that just striking one side would have been enough, but it obviously is. It may be time to setup something as a test to see what works for me, if i can get away with just tapping these two areas or not.

It is very rare for me to get a stuck sprue, but it does happen from time to time, but the lead pour generally melts that away pretty fast.

[ReloaderFred]

When the sprues stick, I know it's time to spray the sprue cutter again. My problem with the Master Caster is some bullets stick worse than others, normally .45 caliber, since a small portion of the bullet is still under the sprue cutter when fully open. A light tap on the left side normally knocks it out.

The Mark 6 is another matter entirely. Without the knockers on that machine, bullets stick all the time. They're air actuated, and if the relay doesn't work right and activate the knockers, just about every bullet sticks in the mold. It seems .38 caliber bullets are worse on that machine.........

Hope this helps.

Fred

[HATCH]

Air cylinder for the tapper will arrive today. I already have the relay and right now I am gonna set it up to do 120vac because I have a extra air valve thats 120v.
This is keeping with the stand alone feature that I am trying for.
I want to make it so anyone can add the tapper to any master caster regardless of the automation design or even if its automated.

[HATCH]

This project is gonna be on hold till mid Oct. Gonna be on vacation. I did get the air cylinder in. Made a bracket. Need to make a piece to fit on the end of the rod

[Tazza]

Enjoy your time off!

When it is up and running, you can then alter the controls to fit any machine as a stand alone unit. The hardest part is to get the tapper(s) in the required area and work out the forces that are needed to get them to release the projectiles.

[HATCH]

I am doing it as a stand alone setup

[jmorris]

I have a new mold that doesn't like to drop and have started digging through my stuff to see what I can make to tap it out. Looks like it will be pneumatic but no electronics.

[Tazza]

I like the idea of a stand alone tapper module, it can fit any machine setup with no additional coding or complications.

Jmorris - can you do like you had for your lead pour? a 555 timer to operate an air solenoid set to say .5 second pulses and a switch to turn it on and off when the mold is int he dumping position.

[jmorris]

That could be done, more work than what I was thinking of.

What I had in mind is just a micro air switch to a spring retract air cylinder and have a comb that runs across it when the mold is down and open (like the detents in an automatic transmission).

[HATCH]

That would work but what modifications to the machine would you have to do.
Right now I have a design that will require NO modifications to the machine.
No additional holes to the frame of the machine.

I am awaiting the fab shop to make up a few pieces that I designed.
It all goes as planned it will be able to be fitted to any Master Caster.

[jmorris]

I have no idea what it would take on a mastercaster, never seen one other than photos and videos.

[jmorris]

This is the "long cut" of what I am going to try.

The brass "nockers" are held to the steel with counter sink allen head bolts, the bar stock will pivot in the center(ish). The scalloped "actuator" clamps to the drive arm I built. So when it is camming over center it, hitting the micro valve, gives it 4 quick taps with the mold down and open.

The cylinder is spring return, thus the single airline.

I think it can all sit behind the casting machine, so except for the part that hits the valve, it could just be mounted to a plate that sits under the casting machine itself. I think I am going to try it under the bullet/sprue bin first as that would be the quickest for a test run.

[Tazza]

I like the concept, only needing one cylinder but strikes both sides of the mold. It will be interesting to see how it works when setup.

How does it do 4 strikes with the micro valve? I understand that you can use a switch so that the ram hits a set point the switch will stop the air moving and the ram will open and repeat. How do you initiate this? another switch to provide air to this circuit?

[jmorris]

The micro valve extends the cylinder when depressed and it retracts it when at rest.

The part at the upper right of the valve in the photo above fits on the arm that runs my mold back and forth. Each "bump" will cause a tap, each valley will relax the cylinder.

Something like this, mounted.

[jmorris]

My machine runs slower than the air powered ones do. You can see the dwell time of the crank when the mold is open and down in this video.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2U1ujg_nzo

[Tazza]

Yours does move nice and slow, but smooth. No need to pause like the air powered versions.

It does sit down for more than long enough for tappers to do their job. I'm keen to see how it performs when mounted.

[HATCH]

Unfortunately his design is unique to his unit as its not a master caster.
I don't see how the comb could be applied to the original master caster operation as the mold is still in motion until the bottom of the stroke.

[HATCH]

Got a call from the shop that the parts I requested to be made are finished.
When I get back will figure out final mounting . touchscreen will be here by then as well

[jmorris]

What relay are you using? I don't think I have seen one that uses a touch screen.

[HATCH]

Touchscreen is for the master caster PLC control. I do have access to smart relays that have displays but they are expensive and for most people unobtainable.

[jmorris]

Oh, what one did you get? I went with the Cmore micro, not as nice as some of them but the price was right.

[HATCH]

I got the same one off eBay for $150 shipped

Its the cheapest touchscreen that I have found out there that will directly interface with the clickpc.
Even has drivers to access the points.
Suppose to be easy to setup too.

[jmorris]

I am no PLC guy by any means but it took me longer to program the display than it did to program my PLC (learning both by trial and error).

Now setting up #2, 3-however many is where it is super easy, just wish I knew more than I do. Would likely find a lot more uses for them and they are getting really cheap these days.

[jmorris]

Well, The kiddo went with Mom this morning so I threw the stuff together and tacked it to the machine for a test. It works but not really what I had in my mind.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ih32UPvuuks

Sitting there watching it, I came to realize that an electronic version would be easy to implement with my cool down timer switch. Looking forward to what you come up with Hatch.

Edit, I generally don't throw the bullets and sprues on the floor but wanted to show how it worked and where it was mounted.

[Tazza]

Nice job Jmorris, i was wondering how you were going to mount the arms, i didn't think if mounting them that way, i thought you were going to go around the back or something.

I like the rack you used to activate the tappers, so very simple, i was trying to work out how you were going to get it to pulsate, now i can see how.

[jmorris]

Around the back would be how I would mount them if I keep it, just so I can slide it back on the cart when not in use, under was just quicker.

My first rack had an extra tooth and the speed between on/off was too fast for cylinder reset so I had to go from 4 taps to 3.

Not really sure why I don't like it but at least it was free and saved me a few beers. Maybe they will give me another idea this evening (but I bet I will wait to see what Hatch comes up with before I get back to that machine).

[Tazza]

I thought the way he was talking about doing it was to only tap one side of the mold (sprue side). He was going to use a smart relay so you can get it to cycle on and off to give it the tapping action. I believe the easiest way to control its on and off action was with a limit switch so it knew when the arm was down.

Your way hits both mold halves, which is ideal, hopefully hitting one side alone will be enough. I hoped to setup two cylinders to strike the mold, just not 100% sure on how i will mount them yet.

Lets hope the beers give you the required inspiration :)

[jmorris]

I have a switch already mounted that triggers when the mold is down and open, that is where it stops for a cool down pause.

I might have an extra timer circut somewhere but I know I have a few turn signal flashers that would give multiple taps (just not very easy to adjust). The only solenoids I have that would give much of a tap would be starter solenoids though.

[Tazza]

I like the flasher unit idea, the heavier the load, the faster it should flash (if not the electronic type).

I was thinking a starter solenoid to work as a tapper a while ago, but i thought they may have been a little too powerful and cause damage.

If you use a flasher unit, you could use an air solenoid if you had one at hand switched by the flasher unit.

[chloe123]

Maybe a viewing underneath and up would showcase better. Looked like the tap prompted release of the boolit as opposed to it releasing later, but hard to tell. All out of scrap parts...another wow

[HATCH]

Just responding cause I been on a boat for the past week.

My plan right now is a extra limit switch at the bottom of the stroke. Use a repeat relay at the bottom.
Gonna be a busy week for projects
Got the touchscreen, tappers and double acting air cylinder to deal with.

[Tazza]

Hope the trip was fun, good excuse to not do anything :)

Looking forward to seeing how the experiment with the touch screen goes.

[HATCH]

Touchscreen isn't a experiment. Its just gonna take the hr or so to program the function blocks in the ts and that's it. No PLC programming changes

[Tazza]

True, i'd like to see how it works, but i guess again, that is just programming to change the look and feel of the interface.

[jmorris]

Hope you had a good trip. Looking forward to see what you put together.

[HATCH]

Its funny how things go. I got home last night at 11pm. Exhausted. Took a pain pill and ended up not falling asleep till almost two.
The mind wouldn't shut up.

In order to control lead pour with the touch screen I am going to make changes to the program.
As it sits right now I can (theoretically speaking) be able to control all the other timers.
Lead Pour is a output isn't timed in the PLC. Its basically a on command after the oh **** timer (a 1 sec pause before lead pour). The timing is done externally via the timing relay. The output stays on until the limit switch is released after the lead cool timer counts down and the movement timer activates

Another issue that came up is that when move lead pour control 100% to the PLC then I lose the ability to operate it manually with auto lead drop.
So I am going to use a input that basically allows lead to drop via PLC yet doesn't activate anything else.

So to recap, I have to totally rewrite the program if I want to control lead pour using the touchscreen. If all I want to do is change everything but lead pour then I just need to program the touchscreen itself.

So right now I am gonna just program the touchscreen then I will rewrite the program

[Tazza]

I have too many nights like that. ..... you go to bed and the brain will not stop. I think about projects im working on and how I should do it. Far too many hours of sleep are missed because of this.

Is it a big deal to have the plc running the lead pour? When setup there really is no reason why it needs the external timer.

Good idea getting it going and alter the code later if you wish to control the lead with the touch screen

[HATCH]

The touch screen is a $250 option.
Anyone that spends that kind of money will want total control.
I picked up the screen for $150. Cost me another $50 for the stupid programming cable.

What I ultimately want is a setup that I can control 100% with the touchscreen and repeat the setup easily.
I want to be able to easily setup 125gr 38s by just punching in 3 sets of numbers.
Lead pour amount
Lead Cool timer
Mold cool timer

Those are the only items that really I need to change regardless of boolit being cast.
If you use a known alloy cast at a known temp then those #s will be the same every time you cast that size boolit.
For the most part the ambient temp is close enough that it doesn't come into play.

I am sure that I am not the only one that wants this type of setup.

I am guessing that it will take me about two hours or so to redo the program

Touchscreen programming is done already just need the stupid cable to dump it into the screen

[Tazza]

I think it's a great idea. Makes it easy to set up a known set of values for each mold. That and these days we love our gadgets. So a touch screen is perfect. It also means it is an option that you can hook up later. Not spend so much to get the automation happening

[HATCH]

I would say its easier to add it to the beginning of the build then as a after thought.

If you don't want to control lead pour then adding the touchscreen is basically plug and play once its programmed regardless of the version of the Hatch Automation program that you have.
If you don't want the manual/auto lead pour then adding touchscreen lead pour is as simple as moving a ground wire and dumping a new program into the PLC (as well as the touchscreen itself)

The only time its gonna require more work if you want the manual/auto lead pour feature.

I can do this two ways.
(1) If you have the double tap feature then I could make DT a virtual button on the touchscreen and then use that switched input to select the manual auto lead pour. This would require only the ground wire on the lead pour valve to be moved which you have to do anyway
(2) remove and replace the existing auto/off/manual switch with a off/on toggle. Wire in 24vdc to one side and send the other one to the next avail input (x5 or x6 depending on if you have double tap)

Or heck.... I just thought of this as I was typing this response.....

I could totally make it all plug and play with just one wire change and even that's optional.
I can make a virtual switch to do the manual/auto.
You would crank the lead control pot wide open.
Then you would use the PLC to control lead pour with the exisiting external lead pour as a backup safety.
The external relay will shut down if power is killed so having it set to a longer time then the PLC will have no effect on lead pour except that it will mean if for some reason you fudge a number it will not pour a pound of lead out of the pot.

Now I am really torn.
Do a virtual manual/auto switch or rewire the panel and use a input to control.

I am keeping a real input for start/stop.
You must have a physical stop switch for safety purposes.
The double tap feature may go away because of the tappers being installed.
But I think I will keep it as a virtual switch so you will have that option in case you need it.

[Tazza]

Yes, it would be easier to do it at the start of the build, but $250 plus a fee for programming just for a panel does make the idea of automation a little less appealing. It would also save the cost of the lead pour timer that you currently use, so doing it from the get go saves buying it then later not using it if it was to be controlled by the PLC.

The idea of plug and play sounds interesting. Gives more options that can be changed easily, if you want them hook it up, if not leave it alone.

The other thing is, not everyone is as mechanically/electronically minded as you are. For the people that want to keep it simple, offer them a kit that works with minimal options and ease of setting up. For those that are up for a challenge, go the complicated all bells and whistles way.

I understand that your setup is pretty straight forward, even with the display it only adds a few wires.

[jmorris]

You could use the non touch screen Cmore ($160) and use two of the function keys as an up/ down control to increment the timer (say .1 second per "click") and have the output trigger a time delay relay. With the option of delay on/off with both, then you could do just about anything you want, as far as control from the panel for time or the external relay.

Set the external for zero after the trigger is gone and you have full panel control, set the panel for .1 seconds and adjust the external to delay off what ever time you want.

[HATCH]

Its $45 difference between touch and non-touch.
I would pick touch.

Your right. It would save $50 on a new build to leave off the external timer and pot.

[HATCH]

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/10/14/1d49054c67ded87d0266a8aef171b8cd.jpg

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/10/14/238a3bd10e9588dce808a9780dd74aa2.jpg

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/10/14/834e4beff0a0edbf11851bb018e6a49a.jpg

[HATCH]

I like the yellow background

[Tazza]

Yellow looks easier to read than the green.

Looks good.

How do you adjust the timing figures? is there a way to put buttons on the screen for up and down?

[jmorris]

I use white for the one on my automated reloaders that switched to red and displayed the fault when one occurred.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/reloading/auto%201050/4.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/reloading/auto%201050/6.jpg

[HATCH]

When you touch the item you want to change it pops up a keypad.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/10/14/e883a0f3947fbfe0536fd6cd917250f3.jpg

[Tazza]

Jmorris: i like that setup, easy to know if a fault has occurred. I was thinking of a buzzer to alert me of an issue, but when things go quiet, it's time to check what's up.

Hatch: Can't get much easier than that. You were talking about getting it to save pre-sets, is that complicated or does the PLC have a file system of sorts that you can save files to it for later retrieval? I'm thinking PC based where you can easily store files and load the data from, i'm just not sure how or if a PLC can work this way or not.

[jmorris]

When you touch the item you want to change it pops up a keypad.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/10/14/e883a0f3947fbfe0536fd6cd917250f3.jpg


Oh, I like that!

Sure wish I knew more about programming them than I do. Any good resources you would suggest?

[HATCH]

Because its plc controlled you could do this.
Keep in mind it would require A LOT of programming but it is doable.

Once you figure out what the ideal setup is for the amount of lead and the cool down timers (lead and mold) then you could have a sub-program for each of the calibers you cast.
You then have a virtual switch for each caliber.
The switch would then run that set of timers.
To my limited knowledge, I don't think you can do a look up table with the PLC.
The touchscreen doesn't store any data beside its own programming.
In fact you have the option of the touchscreen storing the ENTIRE program so you can retrieve it later (touchscreen program) or have it so it can't be read out of the touchscreen.

I load for 14 different calibers but it ends up being only like 12 different molds.
I could have 12 different screens on the touch screen that I can change each timer for each mold.
Then I could have a screen to select the mold I am using which would then active that mold's program.

The only limitation to what you can do on a PLC is the size of the program and covering all the points (inputs and outputs)


I ran into a snag last night.
All versions of the Hatch program are incompatible with the touchscreen.
This has to do with the fact that I used a fixed data entry instead of a dynamic.
Correcting this issue is pretty easy and only took about 5 mins to fix.
I haven't tested it yet but it should work from what tech support said.. Yes I had to ask for help.

[Tazza]

It's never a bad thing to ask for help :)

That is a lot of different molds you use right there, having pre-set times is ideal for your setup. The other way is to have the times written down, but why do that if you can have them stored in a fancy computer. I have 3 molds but really only use one of them.

If a file look up is not doable, your idea of a menu of the different molds is perfect. This is all assuming that the PLC has enough memory to store all of the data.

You are doing a lot more with a PLC than i thought possible.

[HATCH]

The entire program uses 1% of the PLC memory right now.
So even if I duplicated everything 20 times, I would still have plenty of space left.

I use 4 inputs and 4 outputs on the current DT program.
The PLC has 8 inputs and 6 outputs so I have room to do 4 hardwire switches if I want to do it that way.

I spoke to my brother Ray today and we discussed the PLC, touchscreen, and different molds.
I figure that I only really need 3 or 4 preset timers provided I had the ability to adjust the lead pour.
If I am casting a 220 grain, 230 grain or 250 grain boolit the cool down timers would be pretty close together so I could use one preset for them. 175HP,180fp and 200 rnfp would use another and then maybe one for the 115,125,147,158

When setting up the PLC for the touchscreen you can specify a default setting for each timer.
I plan to read the program that is currently in my PLC right now and use its settings for the default. I have cast 158 grain and 230 grain with them and had no issues.

Also found out the usb program cable for the screen also does the PLC so thats a bonus since my notebook now doesn't have any serial ports.

[Tazza]

That is a lot less than i would have thought, i assume the addition of the extra pre-sets won't add a whole lot to the room the program will take up.

I do like the idea of switches, turn it and it has a pre-set that you can adjust the lead pour slightly to run smoothly.

[HATCH]

Is basic ladder logic.
Once you get passed the start/stop stuff its nothing more then a few timers.

[HATCH]

Figured out the touchscreen.
I can now access EVERY function in the PLC via touchscreen.
right now I have 4 screens.
Title screen
Single Tap (safety delay,lead pour, mold cool, stroke)
Double Tap (safety delay,lead pour, mold cool, stroke)
Double tap settings (DT delay, dt tap counter)
Screen 5 will be for the options
I think I will move DT to a virtual switch and put it on screen 5
Make the hardwire input for DT the manual lead pour.

[spena64]

Hello,
I am new to posting on this forum but have been following the automation stuff for about a year and half. I just now ran across this thread and thought I would share my setup with you. I apologize because I meant to share it a long time ago and to say thank you for all of the information you all have provided on automating the Master Caster.

Automated Master Caster with tappers: Video (http://youtu.be/-X1L2o6NyQo)

This video was taken about a year ago. I have since added a tapper to the left side. I run 185 gr 45's and so far it works like a champ. The tappers are pneumatic and controlled through the PLC by switching a solenoid valve. Cycle time is about 10 secs.

Sol

[Tom_Highway]

Nice job!!! Awesome!!![emoji122][emoji122][emoji122][emoji122][emoji106][emoji4]

[HATCH]

Looks great.
One question is what ms is the tappers set at. What's the pulse?

[Tazza]

That is a very nice setup.

How did you get the ram to move so smooth? are you using flow resitrictors?

Mine moves a lot faster than yours, it doesn't need the speed, it just needs the power to cut the sprue, but with the pressure needed, it moves the ram quite quickly.

[jmorris]

I like it Sol. Looks a lot smoother slowing the pneumatics down and adding the tapper.

Tazza I imagine he is using a needle valve style speed control, they are the most common.

http://www.pisco.com/prodtype.aspx?prodtypeid=27


Adjust the valve and lock it down. I have some cylinders that have a 1/8"-1/8" fitting that just has a small hole through the center. Controlling the flow will slow the speed down but once it does get full of air you have all the power it would have had (minus the inertia of the fast movement hammering at the end of the stroke.)

[HATCH]

I am still waiting on the metal shop to make the parts I need made. Sucks not being a machinist.
I use flow controllers and adjust them after the machine is up to temp.
I do know that when the machine is cold that the timing for the double tap has to be changed. Found that out this morning when I was playing with the touchscreen.

[spena64]

Thank you everyone.
Tappers - I have two timers and one counter that control the tapping sequence. Currently I fire the tapper solenoid for 100ms and turn it off for 100ms and do 8 taps, one solenoid for both tappers. On the left side I tap the side of the mold and any stuck bullet falls out within a few taps, but a stuck bullet on the right side will drop at about 6 taps. I have thought about moving the right tapper to the side, but it is pretty tight with the sprue plate on that side.

Ram speed - This was a little tricky because when I first setup it up cold it worked great and then running it hot everything changed.
Here is the current setup:
I use a 1-1/16" double acting cylinder with 3 position sensors and 3 (meter out) speed controllers. The position sensors indicate end of stroke and the mid-stroke cooling position. The cooling position sensor is a trigger to tell the PLC to stop the ram and it always drafts past the sensor, so this could be done with a timer eliminating the extra sensor. I use one speed controller on retract attached to the extend port (meters exhaust to control retract speed). For the extend stroke I have two speed controllers in parallel attached to the retract port. The first speed controller is on the retract input line and is set to move the ram slowly to the cool position. The second speed controller (in parallel with the first) is upstream of a 2-way normally closed valve. This valve stays closed during the extend to cool stroke and opens during the full extend stroke. The second speed controller allows me to bump up the full extend stroke speed to reliably shear off the sprue. I designed the system to operate at 80psi and I found that it still needed some speed to shear the sprue using the 1-1/16 cylinder. When I ran it too slow it would hesitate when shearing the sprue and then slam into the stop. I am sure there is a simpler way to do this, but in the heat of battle this is what I came up with.

I have made about 2000 to 3000 bullets and so far it has worked pretty well. Now that the weather is cooling off I plan to run it more over the next 5 months.
I hope this helps and if anyone would like to see the PLC code send me a PM. I will try to get a few photos of the current setup posted later today.

[chloe123]

A late edit: he's a fast typer too (see above)


Stared at the stream of Spena64s video when it was posted. I didn't think the steady speed and the pneumatic were compatible. Questions for thought. Wondering if the psi/force rating is higher on the dual acting cylinder, as well as what led him to the change from the design he followed. The mechanics behind the controls different than the Hatch design? And what about the Frankenstein Thumler?

Here's a guy who followed the W/H mod quietly and re-tooled it. I'd like to stay dark for a year and come up with some brilliant like that!

[spena64]

Here is the route I took. From the beginning I wanted to stop at a cooling position because this how I did it manually. The problem was that I could not find a setting/speed that would repeatably stop the mold under the fan and then have enough speed to shear the sprue. The main valve for the ram is a double solenoid, 3 position, 5 port, center closed valve. A different solenoid valve scheme may have corrected this issue but I went the two speed controller route.

I don't think the mechanics behind the controls is a whole lot different, except for firing an additional solenoid to retract the ram. also, I am looking for sensor inputs to trigger certain sequences.

Frankenstein Thumler - You had me stumped on that one until I went back and looked at the video. Nothing going on there except for lack of space on my table :(


Here are a few of photos of my current setup. Because it has been too hot to venture out into the garage the last 3 or 4 months I had forgotten about the new style of tapper head, see photo. I still use the threaded stand off on the end of the cylinder, but I added a piece of aluminum bar stock as the head to add mass. The aluminum is soft enough so that it does not damage the mold and the added mass did help to drop the stuck bullets. The valve in the third photo opens and closes the faster ram extend circuit to atmosphere.

119542
119544
119541

[jmorris]

I used a simple air valve and single acting Spring return cylinder on the one I posted in #34 because it was the simplest thing I could do with my machine with what I had but you could make a non electronic tapper that would oscillate as fast as it could make a tap without electronics just pneumatics. Like in this video.

http://vid664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/VID_20141018_224642_717_zpsgwzbtdj8.mp4

I still have an old pneumatic windshield wiper actuator off of an 18 wheeler that is internally set up in this fashion. Just need to hit either switch to reverse with the tapper lever/arm/head. More or less a realitively slow air hammer.

Only trick would be another air valve that the mold carrier hit when it stopped for its cool down cycle, at the bottom and allow air to the system then shut it off when it started back up for another pour.

For that matter you could use an air hammer if you could set it low enough to not beat everything up and still run. Then it just allows air to them when the mold is down.

Kind of like this but turned down (a lot) with a soft tipped arbor. There is a valve on the $7 one I picked up some years ago that will allow you to completely shut if off ( the knulrled knob next to the air inlet fitting) but I think it would be over kill for what we are talking about.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=harbor%20freight%20air%20hammer&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CCcQtwIwBA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DEcp eAK2h5BA&ei=DDlDVKv6KMWZ8gGqrIDACw&usg=AFQjCNFIlbSguhlwWUQ02v8GsrtxLG0mOQ&sig2=g18aoYjFn28j43134Sh4ug&bvm=bv.77648437,d.b2U

[Tazza]

Jmorris - That is what i thought was used too, i'm going to see what restrictors i can find on ebay to suit my hose. I was going to make a restrictor and drill it out as needed, but for the price of an adjustable one, i may give it a go.

I like the tappers, I have cylinders like that in my parts bin, I too was going to use buffers at the end, not to give more force for the impacts, but something to not damage the mold where it was being struck. Something softer that the mold or sprue plate that is being hit.

We just got into Spring here, so it was cool enough to cast masses during Winter. I have quite a stock pile cast, just need to coat and size them.

Heaps of time to tweak before next Winter rolls around.

[jmorris]

The "damage" part is why I use soft bras tappers.

The attachment/ adapter is a .042" hole vs a .187". One can be a "finger snatcher" the other is OK.

The .042 is still pretty quick activating a toggle clamp like in this video.

http://vid664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/VID_20141016_095236_091_zpsh4omfmf7.mp4

But it doesn't have the "snap" of a full bore hit. It is also just a cheap adapter, one could do the same with an insert and drill bits but a needle valve is pretty cheap and fully adjustable.

[jmorris]

I figured some one would ask about the weld...could use some more post flow but they are happy and makes $3 a part. The fixture or machine costs you once, from that point you are doing OK.

Just like an auto caster.

I think Hatch is going to make it easy for everyone.

[Tazza]

That is a very cool clamp. $3 per welded item is pretty sweet when all you have to do is a small amount of TIG welding that takes you so little time. Yet you did have to make the clamp and work it for this job.

I know people that have done the hole drilling for adjusting hydraulic cylinder movement on backhoe attachments when the swing is so wild it is uncontrollable.

[HATCH]

Here is a tease
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/11/06/f8fe25e2a16872054b8d91594dc25c8e.jpg

[Tazza]

That is mounted to the left side? I assume you are going to hit the right as well?

Teasing us with little pictures, shame on you :)

[HATCH]

Left side for right now. Trying to figure out how to Tap right side without losing handle

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/11/06/bc0e327e0b47067e81f9967b0b88fb43.jpg

Bottom limit switch
Not Happy with placement but it does seem to work

[Tazza]

I never thought about the handle, as i removed mine i didn't even consider it....

You can always adjust the switch location later to find it's sweet spot, or can you use a double micro switch to work with what you have there already for the PID?

[HATCH]

I can do it all with one switch and just use timers.
Basically the mold moves to the bottom to dump and cool off.
This is a 2 sec timer.
I can put a timer that says 500 ms after the mold move timer starts, start the tappers.
Tappers would run as long as the 2 sec timer was running so if I made the timer 4 seconds then it would still start 500ms after.

The problem with this is
(1) doesn't work in manual mode
(2) can't be used by anyone who isn't running a plc
(3) doesn't account for any delays in getting to the bottom

When I design something I think of everyone. Not just myself or people running my program.

I will be testing a non-plc setup tomorrow after lunch.
This will be relay based and will so both the operation of the machine itself by t also have a timer with bottom limit switch for the tappers.

[Tazza]

That is a very good point, your idea is perfect for someone that doesn't want automatic but the ease of pour, cut then the tappers drop the sprue and projectiles if they were to stick. It always was a pain when they stuck and you would be rapping on the handle to get them to free the projectiles or sprue.

I see the issues of a PLC based timer too, you really need it to run with the input from a limit switch at the bottom of the stroke to know for sure something has not gone wrong. The tappers could be extended as the arm drops and bends the cylinder rod(s). That is my only concern, but a limit switch would fix that.

[HATCH]

Only problem with using a timer relay (smart) is that the smallest increment is 1/10th of a second.
I plan to set it to repeat so it will pulse the tapper.
I am hoping that will work using the built in spring that is in the air cylinder.

All the tappers I have seen pull in and spring out.
I purchased the little brass ball off of eBay. It was reasonable and have a total of 5 balls now.

[jmorris]

How fast can the solenoid you are using extend and retract the brass ball, whatever distance you have it set up for?

[HATCH]

I am using pneumatic.
I will have your answer after lunch when I get home. Unless the wife has plans for me, today is gonna be shop day

[HATCH]

Not too happy with using a relay to control it.
Also my mounting system leaves much to be desired.

http://youtu.be/kIloiKnWM8c

[Silver-Silver]

Not too happy with using a relay to control it.
Also my mounting system leaves much to be desired.

http://youtu.be/kIloiKnWM8c

Hatch,
Is that PLC - Relay - Solenoid - Pneumatic Cylinder ?

Are you running a solid state relay to signal the solenoid?
And is that max speed you can run? Single or DA Pneumatic Cylinder? I have been patiently waiting to see what you design.

-Steve

[HATCH]

That is a 'smart relay' operating a air valve with a spring return cylinder.

The entire setup runs 120v.
Besides needing a better mount for the air cylinder.
The problem it has is this - smallest increment relay goes is 1/10th of a second. 1/10th of a second is too fast because the ram doesn't have time to retract. It basically taps once this just slightly moves the mold carrier as it pulses.
2/10th of a second is what the video shows. It is almost too slow. The mold I have in the machine now doesn't stick boolits so I can't test that part.

I need to find a way to increase the spring tension that is inside the cylinder.
This will allow me to run it at 1/10th of a second.

The plc will allow me to do the .15 sec which might be the sweet spot.

[Silver-Silver]

Thanks Hatch
I forgot you were looking to design a system that could be fitted to any machine and not just your PLC fitted machines.

It looks like you are making progress which is good to see.

-Steve

[HATCH]

Don't worry. This weekend I will be playing with the tappers and the PLC.
Right now I was in the middle of switching everything over to the new control panel. I did run into a problem. The dual acting air cylinder nose mount thread is different then the spring return one. So I have to make a new piece to hold it.

[wymanwinn]

is this the same PLC used on the Star we automated....?

[HATCH]

Yes sir. Its really just a relay. Right now i don't think it will be a solution for us.
But if its something you think might work for you then I will send you one and tell you how to wire it up. You would just need the pneumatic cylinder and a limit switch.

[wymanwinn]

Yes sir. Its really just a relay. Right now i don't think it will be a solution for us.
But if its something you think might work for you then I will send you one and tell you how to wire it up. You would just need the pneumatic cylinder and a limit switch.

ok, will stand by for the "ultimate" tapper mod.....don't really have a problem with bullets sticking, just planning ahead....:)))

w

[Tazza]

hehe the "ultimate" tapper, you have a lot to live up to now Hatch, no pressure :)

[chloe123]

In the meantime, loop that clip and you got a metronome

[jmorris]

If you go back in this thread to the "comb" I originally made to work with my "mechanical" pneumatic tappers it had 4 "teeth" (post 22) I quickly found that it could not reset fast enough and went to the 3 "teeth" (post 34) version that works. Never timed it but it takes time for everything to reverse.

Why I asked how fast yours could reset. 10th of a second would be pretty quick and the relay might not be a problem. I also think you either need more stroke,/speed or mass on your knockers.

[Tazza]

Another reason for it not cycling fast enough could be the air hose length. If it's too long, it could be the lag of the air coming in and then exiting the line. The longer it is, the longer it will take.

The breather hole in the cylinder could possibly be drilled out to allow it to retract faster?

[HATCH]

I am not a machinist so I just bought a brass ball that would thread on the shaft.
With more mass you will be slower in retracting as it takes more time to get the increased mass moving.
I think a combination of more mass and a stronger return spring would let it pulse at 1/10th a sec.


I can shorten the airline and basically put the valve almost on the cylinder and try it. But I don't think it will matter much.
The slow down is the cylinder has a very small opening and it can't be enlarged because of the threads. Its what happens when you go with small cylinders.

[jmorris]

I am not a machinist so I just bought a brass ball that would thread on the shaft.
With more mass you will be slower in retracting as it takes more time to get the increased mass moving.

If you want to try different ones I could whip you up a set, I still have some brass stock I made mine from.

If your cylinder actuates another arm in the middle with a pivot at the bottom and tapper at the top. You will have twice the velocity and half the stroke on the cylinder at the tapper vs it being on the cylinder itself. The closer you move the cylinder towards the pivot the shorter it will need to move to make the tapper travel the same distance, thus faster your cycle could be.

You loose power as you do that but power is not really all that important in the end it is inertia we are counting on.

[jmorris]

Watch this video again and notice the gap between the tappers on either side, then look at how far the cylinder strokes to close both gaps. Moving less and slower than the tappers themselves.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ih32UPvuuks

[HATCH]

Moved the air valve to within 1/2 inch of cylinder.

Running at 1/10th of a second

http://youtu.be/O1qQGH1zQ1Q

[Silver-Silver]

Hatch,
Great improvement by moving the air valve closer.

Do you mind me asking which air valve you are running? Are you happy with them?

-Steve

[HATCH]

For the mount..

I will get a thicker metal piece.
Have it attach to the bolt and stud on the side. Then have it wrap around the front and attach to the bolt on the front.

[HATCH]

Hatch,
Great improvement by moving the air valve closer.

Do you mind me asking which air valve you are running? Are you happy with them?

-Steve
Sorry I didn't see this earlier...

We use MAC brand at work so that's what I used.
I have used cheap ($20) ones from eBay on other projects and those work just as well.
The air valve for the tapper is 120v because I am trying to make it stand alone for those who want that feature.
When I switch it to the PLC which will be sometime soon (maybe tomorrow night or Monday) it will be switched to 24vdc as that is what the PLC provides.

My original automated MC used MAC brand and I haven't had a issue.
I am trying a different brand on my new setup to try them out.
Not sure how the new ones will work as they have smaller 10/32 ports which would mean less air flow. It may not matter because I use 1/4 inch od air tubing for my setup.

New setup uses five air valves.
(1) lead pour
(2) air control - kills air flow to movement valves
(3) down stroke
(4) up stroke
(5) tapper

The air control valve allows manual operation of the master caster when the panel is in stop mode. When the master caster is in run mode is allows air to go to the movement valves.
I am using two valves on movement because its what I have on hand. You could use a single four way five port setup (think that is the one)
But I wanted total control over the movement cylinder and with two independent valves I can do that.

[Tazza]

It will be interesting to see how well that makes the stuck projectiles fall. I was going to try and get mine to tap the mold half to make it jiggle back and forth. I figured striking the arm where yours is directed you are fighting against the angle plates that open the mold halves. I still see movement, hopefully enough vibration to get the stuck projectiles to fall. If it works, that is where i'll aim for too. For the way i was thinking, my concern was potential wear as the mold hits the end of it's so called stroke as it pivots on the split pin.

Then again, i could use a lower pressure to limit the force being applied to it.

[HATCH]

Look at this video

http://youtu.be/B0TWNmgEMnM

The German guy taps the same spot and also taps the sprue plate.
In would be afraid that tapping the sprue plate would wear something. Either elongate the hole in the sprue where the bolt goes thru or wear out the bolt itself.

[Tazza]

I do see where he is striking the arm, it surprises me that it gives enough vibration, but obviously does.

Sadly, another weekend down and i have not had time to play with my MC. So many things to do, not enough hours in the day.

[HATCH]

Didn't get anything done on the MC today. Had other projects to deal with.

I know how I am gonna do the mount for the tapper on the side.
Just need to do some other stuff.l this weekend

[Tazza]

I have X-mas holidays coming up in a few weeks, hopefully i will get some time to myself to play with my MC too. Not loving how much life is getting in the way of my projects though.....

Looking forward to seeing how you mount the tapper for the right mold half, i'm still between tapping the bottom side of the mold or the sprue plate. I'm with you thinking tapping the plate may not be the best idea as it may cause wear. The only way is to give it a go really and see how violent both options are.

Your cylinder looks larger than the ones i have. Hopefully mine will still have enough power to do the job....

[HATCH]

I think tapping the sprue plate may be OK. Messed around earlier. No way to do the right side unless I loose the handle.

[Tazza]

I'd think it was ok too, as it is just creating vibration, not any real movement or enough force to bend anything. The only possible issue is small flakes of lead being caught behind the sprue when it bounces. It moves a little allowing a little lead in, but the chances of this being the cause of the leading is very remote. It is mostly due to cutting the sprue when the lead is a little too soft.

I'm lucky enough to not have a handle attached, but that still does not cater for everyone, unless you can get underneath it to hit the mold, but then you have bench mounting issues....

[HATCH]

I found something that might help with the tappers
http://www.clippard.com/cms/wiki/quick-exhaust-valve-cylinder-application

[jmorris]

I originally thought of tapping the bottom side of the mold carriers below the pivot. A tap there would likely be the best spot to free bullets as you would be pulling the mold off the bullet, vs just rattling them like what happens tapping at the mold itself.

[Tazza]

I never knew they made valves like that, it's pretty fancy. I see a few on Ebay, but they seem a little big....

[HATCH]

When I switch to a double acting cylinder for movement I am gonna use those valves on it. That will allow me to drop the air control valve that allows manual operation.
Basiclly I think all my cylinders will have them installed.

[Tazza]

The only issue i see is if you want to slow your cylinders down, it may mess with the flow restrictors.

Mine have not yet arrived, but i hope to slow mine down so essentially they run like a hydrualic cylinder does, slow and smooth. My thinking was that the pressure on each side of the piston would help with this. If you have a valve like that, the pressure difference on each side of the piston would be quite different.

With that said, i have no idea how it will run in a real world test, it may work perfectly and allow the machine to run with the handle effortlessly like you wanted it to. Will they allow air being drawn in and pushed out? they have one way valves in there, wonder if that will be an issue or not.

*pulls up a chair* Looking forward to seeing how it goes.

[HATCH]

From what I understand is that a flow restrictor doesn't affect the pressure only the volume.
I would have to test this theory this week before ordering the exhaust valves. Maybe someone like Wyman could speak up on this matter.

I do know that no matter what the the lead pour cylinder will get a exhaust valve installed as I don't use a flow regulator on it now.

[Tazza]

That is my understanding too. They only reduce the flow, the same pressure is still available, it just takes longer for the cylinder to develop this pressure if it's feeding in slowly.

We need an expert in pneumatics to guide us, and hopefully not tell us all that we are doing it totally wrong.

[HATCH]

Yes but the question is will the pressure be affected enough that the exhaust valve will not work properly.
I run my machine at 70psi.
The exhaust valves I looked at had a 50psi trip point. So the question would be if the flow regulators reduce the pressure below the trip point?

[Tazza]

I would doubt it would effect it, as when the cylinder hits the end of each stroke it will bottom out allowing the air to build up to 70psi it will just take a little longer than a cylinder without a restrictor valve.

It's something to try, hopefully the valves are not too expensive though. Unless you could use them in another application that is. I didn't see prices in their website.

[HATCH]

Per Wyman

they only regulate how fast the air flows...the pressure will build to the regulated level....ie, if you turn a flow regulator way down the cylinder will take a while to extend, but it will put the regulated pressure on the piston....

wyman


Based on this info I am gonna purchase the exhaust valves that I think I need.
The place that I put a link to above has them for around $6.50 each but shipping is $20
They have the 10-32 ones which is what I would need for the tappers.
I would have to look today and see if they have the ones for 1/8 thread.

The tappers are the ones that are really needed. I need to find someone to machine a limit block to go inside the tapper to limit the travel. This will help with possible wear or damage against the mold carrier. Also this might increase the spring pressure as the spring would be compressed more because of the block.

[Tazza]

The only possible issue you may have with adding a blocker inside the cylinder is that not all of them are made to be disassembled. The ones i have seem to be crimped and loctited together.

The blockers i have seen are mounted inside and slide over the stick. It bottoms out between the piston and the gland so they don't alter the spring tension.

Do you really think the extra length could cause damage? i don't know just how much force the ram can put out, but i'd have thought it would be no where near enough to break anything.

[jmorris]

i hope to slow mine down so essentially they run like a hydrualic cylinder does, slow and smooth.

Depends on the application if the load is inconsistent that is going to be hard to do.

Air is quite compressible and thus acts like a spring sometimes. Hydraulic fluid is not very compressible and thus is much more consistant in travel speed reguardless of load as long as the pump can displace the same amount of fluid.

[HATCH]

I have noticed the spring effect on my master caster. It bounces if I reduce the flow.

I had another crazy thought.
What happens when the air is turned on to both sides of a double acting air cylinder??
Does it stop in place provided pressure is the same on both sides???

[Tazza]

Jmorris - this is very true, the way i thought it "should" work is when it cuts the sprue, the load will be different, so just after the cut it will spring. I plan of having a restrictor on both ports so after the spring effect it should normalize and slow down.

Hatch - That will not totally work as both sides of the piston are not equal. The rod side will have a slightly lower surface area so it will fully extend the rod. This is why cylinders have different forces for push and pull.

[HATCH]

So I got everything back together.
Currently using a external relay to do the single tapper.
So messed with it and messed with it and I thought I didn't have the limit switch hooked up right as the tapper didn't work.
During this time I was trying out a new mold.
Well had issues with the new mold and basically got frustrated so I gave up for the night.
After I cut the power off to the control panel I noticed my tapper relay was set to 000 which means it wouldn't do anything.
Changed it yo 001 which is 1 ms and hand cycled the machine and it worked as designed...
Will try for a video later this week.

[Tazza]

We all have days like that, something just isn't working right, you get fed up and walk away while you have a little sanity left and deal with it another day.

Glad it was something so simple and easily over looked.

Looking forward to seeing the video when you get to take it.

[HATCH]

Not perfect.
Also excuse the mess as I need to really clean up my reloading area

http://youtu.be/wO664nbUEnk

[HATCH]

Will still need to add a tapper to the front to tap the right side mold/sprue

[Tazza]

Looks good

Looking forward to seeing how you adapt it to tap the sprue/other mold half.

I haven't had time to fiddle with my MC, my time has been spent on other projects :(

[jmorris]

I figure he would just T into the line and add one more cylinder. Only reason I made all the stuff to tap both sides with a single cylinder is because I only one that would work with the switch I used.

What relay did you use?

[HATCH]

Its the same smart relay I always use. If you need one Jim pm your address

[HATCH]

Major delay today.
Fired off my R2D2 looking propane heater. Heated my room up nicely.
Started working on the machine.
Disconnected the rubber air line and dropped it to the floor.
Heard a hissing sound about two mins later.
Melted a hole in the line.
Guess it's time to pipe the shop for the compressor.
Had the 1/2 inch pipe laying around for a year.

On another note.
Air valves can restrict the flow.
When I redid the panel I went with different air valves.
They had 10/32 ports.
I ran the down stroke wide open and it wasn't beating the machine to death.
Switched air valves to a MAC brand with larger ports and had to adjust the flow because it was slamming the machine now.

Also I run 1/4 od air line instead of the 3/8 od everyone else does.

[Tazza]

I get jobs like that too, you put off doing something then something happens that makes it become more of a priority. Say the mower is broken, it rains then the lawn grows, you have little choice but to repair sad mower so you can use the rotten thing.

It's nice that you at least had the stuff on hand to do it, not as fun when you need to go out and buy it quickly and potentially pay too much.

I'm running 6mm hose on mine, i got given a roll of 100m when we asked for a metre..... My dad and I told him i'd never need that much, he said you get all or nothing, so we took the roll :) He did literally have a pallet load of the stuff. He was the one that kindly donated air cylinders and control valves that i'm using. They are all used, but work just fine. It's good to know the right people.

[jmorris]

"air" and liquid, electricity (ac vs dc) for that matter are all different animals.

Part of the learning process. I still learn new things every time I do something "different" (to me at least).

[Tazza]

So very true jmorris. Im the same when I tackle something new.

[HATCH]

Gonna get a rapidair kit and get it all fixed tomorrow night

[Tazza]

Hatch - Have you made any other additions to the tappers? or is striking the left side of the mold working out to be enough?

I'm going to give it a go to try and find a few minutes tomorrow to see what i can setup to do a proof of concept for my machine. I'd like to hit both sides of the mold, but i have to see what i can come up with to mount and hit these areas.

If i don't get to it tomorrow, i will next week. The wife is back at work on Monday, so i can use my remaining holiday time to do what I want to do :)

[HATCH]

Haven't had time to mess with them any more.
I finally got the machine back together. I cast about 1k 22 txm boolits. Started doing 38/40 boolits. They drop out of the mold like its coated in Teflon.

[Tazza]

That's a shame, but i guess that is how life goes.

I wish my 158gr swc would drop like that, i have a mate that shoots a lot of revolver and requested some to try. Easier said than done as they stick a fair bit without the impact that it had without the restrictors.

I may need to spend some more time with polish to see if i can get it nice and smooth to drop like that.

[Tazza]

I made some dodgy mounts for the cylinders and clamped them in place to test functionality. I made some brass "hammers" for the end of the rods to soften the blow of the cylinder.

I just need to talk to my brother to modify the code to make it all work.

[jmorris]

I made some brass "hammers" for the end of the rods to soften the blow of the cylinder.

If you think they will hit too hard brass might not be the best idea, maybe aluminum or a plastic would be a better idea. I used brass to increase the mass so they had more inertia when they hit the mold carriers than the little cylinder alone would have.

[Tazza]

By softening the blow, i was really just aiming for something softer than the metal rod end. Having steel on steel strikes, something is going to give over time, it may just be a small mark, but i'd rather reduce the chance of it causing damage is all.

I was thinking aluminium too, the bit of brass on my bench at the time was made for the job, minimal work to make it fit. I can always change it out later if it appears the brass is too hard.

Time will tell after i get the code changed and hooked up to a solenoid.

[jmorris]

I see, the brass will work fine.

[SSGOldfart]

Yea I know it's a older thread but some of this can take awhile,Hatch any updates on the tappers?
After reading your thread I jumped on the first Master Caster I came across,guess I'll just operate in manually to start then look at automating it.

[Tazza]

You won't regret automating it, not for a second :)

I'd like to know if he has had time to mess with it too, i know work was piling up on him last time we spoke.

I haven't messed with mine for a few months either, it's just been far too hot to cast and I have quite a stock pile already, so no need to cast more just yet. I have my tappers mounted for a test, but i have not yet hooked them up to see if they will work as planned.

[HATCH]

I don't work in the colder months.
Yeah I am a baby and when it gets below 50 as a high Work stops.
This has to do that when I run my propane heater it causes too much condensation on my ammo cans. I need to get a dehumidifier.
Also Right now my master caster is apart. It is being cloned. Yep you heard it right. Duplicated. 50%+ larger pot. 3400 watts vs 1400
All steel construction.
Also it will be tapper ready

And lastly....... I switched my setup over to a touch screen right before winter and I need to get it 100% bug free before I start back on the tappers
The plan this weekend it to trouble shoot the code. I have a simple mistake then it will be back 100%.
Next will be to reassemble the master caster and hook it back up to automation.

Then I will work on the tappers
I have access to a full CNC machine shop now so it should be easier to make any parts needed for the tapper project.


.

[Tazza]

*raises eyebrow* I so wish you lived up the street, I'd be requesting CNC work all the time :)

I was thinking of making a MC from flat steel plate and cutting it out, i just never got that motivated.

[HATCH]

Well I located replacement heating elements also
Original magma are $126 USD. 5.5 in id x 2.5 wide 1400 watts at 240vac
New replacement is $65 USD 5.5 x 3.
1750 watts at 240vac !!!!
The replacement is 240vac only while the original magma was 110/240

The plan is to stack two on the new pot as its taller

It would pull about 15 amps at 240.
Lucky for me the panel I built for the new machine is rated for 30 amps.

[Tazza]

I assume both elements will go in a thick steel base of the pot?

[HATCH]

No. Magma uses heating bands that wrap around the pot
The outside diameter of the pot is 5.5 inches
The original band is 2.5 inches wide wrapped around the pot starting about a 3/4 of a inch from the base.
The replacement is 3 inches wide.
Example
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/03/30/fb558cd53c7c78cc6607c390d97a641b.jpg

[Tazza]

Oh, mine has the cartridge style that are pressed into the thick metal base. Two 110/120V elements that i run in series to suit my 240v power.

In a way, bands i can see would be better as you have more surface area than just the base. Yet the band would be most effective if you have a constant amount of lead above the level of the band.

[HATCH]

That is interesting. I guess older machines have cartridge style.
I know mine and my brother's have heating bands.
His is about 7 or 8 years old at least. Mine is about four easy


I would think that you could add the additional heating band to your current setup and it would increase heating capacity and help with recovery when you add more lead

[Tazza]

I don't know exactly how old mine is, but i bought it not long after the buyback that took my .45 in 2003, so that's about 12 years. It was quite used when i bought it, so just how old it is, is a mystery. It is all cast iron, i thought the new ones were aluminium?

I had ideas of making a clone complete with automation to sell over here, but i thought it would have been far too much effort. Make it my own style like Jmorris did.

At least now i know if the elements cause me issues, i can go for a band heater, never knew that style existed

[jmorris]

Hatch your project sounds about like the one I built.

The pot will hold more than 60lbs of lead and I used a 3500 watt oven element. The first one was $12 or so when 8 first built it had to replace it a while back and they had gone up to $16.

The pot is 3/8" wall pipe

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/caster5.jpg

With a bottom welded to it.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/caster3.jpg