a beginners question on modern semi auto handguns

[johnson1942]

im not a beginner on guns or handguns just the latest modern semi autos. ive owned in the way past at least 20 handguns. high standard supermatic trophy's, victors, browning 9mm made in belgium, every top rated .22 auto their ever was. ive shot the 1911, and even had a few colt ssa/s. now here is what i would like to know. my son visited me last week for a couple of days. he had 3 guns he loves and we shot them. one was a smith .40 cal modern semiauto. the other two were .9mm and .45 auto springfields. i have never shot guns with such bad triggers in all my life. i never told him that but are all modern autos as bad as those 3? my cap guns from when i was a kid had better triggers than those 3. here is the big question. are their any modern autos out their with a trigger that is clean and crisp and you dont have to be superman to set it off. no creep at all. all i shoot now are really good double set triggers but i remember the guns i used to have and every trigger on all of them was clean, crisp and of a good weight. even the browning 9mm auto. probably the best hand gun for accuracy and ease of shooting was a big smith in .45 long colt. you could take a snakes head off at 30 yards. some day in the future i want to buy my son a modern semiauto that is like the days gone by ones. easy to hold with perfect trigger let off. ok guys and gals which one is it, or do i have to have one made. please help me on this im way way out of touch. ill give you a hint at my age. when i shot with 7 other sailors and sixty marines and got the top score off all of them and i mean way ahead of all of them it was with a smith .38 special with a 5 inch barrel. i loved that gun and carried it in a shoulder holster for a long time and trusted it with my life back then. it never failed me. thanks before hand. johnson1942

[Lead Fred]

Sig Sauer P220, the finest production 45 made, and only handgun I would own.
They come in girlie calibers too

[KYCaster]

There are some after market parts available that will improve the triggers on the modern semi-autos dramatically, and many gunsmiths who specialize in trigger enhancement work on them.....

......but.....

......they'll never equal a good S&W DA, or a SAA, or a good 1911.

With LOTS of practice you can learn to shoot them well, but when you've learned to shoot with the real thing, they just never feel right.

If you're interested in improving the triggers on your son's plastic fantastics, check out the Brian Enos forums. Some of those guys are really serious about their gun games and know what they're talking about.

Good luck
Jerry

[Artful]

Smith&Wesson upgrade trigger kits
https://apextactical.com/store/product-list.php?pg1-cid11.html

Springfield XD
http://www.brownells.com/handgun-parts/trigger-group-parts/triggers/xd-xdm-drop-in-trigger-kits-prod53900.aspx
http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/

[MtGun44]

I normally set up my 1911s with a two pound trigger pull and they will hold that for
many tens of thousands of rounds. Crisp, light and delightful to shoot.

I have handled a VERY nice S&W M&P in .45 ACP that had a "Ajax" (?) or some other
name that starts with an "A" - trigger modification kit put into it and it was a very
good trigger too.

I put a really nice trigger on a Browning HP, so I know that can be done, too.

Bill

[6bg6ga]

I normally set up my 1911s with a two pound trigger pull and they will hold that for
many tens of thousands of rounds. Crisp, light and delightful to shoot.

I have handled a VERY nice S&W M&P in .45 ACP that had a "Ajax" (?) or some other
name that starts with an "A" - trigger modification kit put into it and it was a very
good trigger too.

I put a really nice trigger on a Browning HP, so I know that can be done, too.

Bill

Kind of curious about your 1911 2# trigger pulls. I've always read that 1911's in order to work correctly had to have 3.5 trigger pulls. Out of curiosity what are you using for aftermarket parts and special angles?

[johnson1942]

thanks guys, i kind of figured the 1911 was the way to go. my other son who is in law enforcement uses a kimber 1911,.45cal auto for his side arm. ive never shot it but he gave up a smith .40 auto for it.

[contender1]

If you notice a theme here,,, most modern semi-autos have to have work done on them to make them "clean, crisp & smooth." Even many 1911's will need a bit of work. But,,,, if I had to get one out of the box to work with the 1911 would be my first choice.

[MrWolf]

I normally set up my 1911s with a two pound trigger pull and they will hold that for
many tens of thousands of rounds. Crisp, light and delightful to shoot.

I have handled a VERY nice S&W M&P in .45 ACP that had a "Ajax" (?) or some other
name that starts with an "A" - trigger modification kit put into it and it was a very
good trigger too.

I put a really nice trigger on a Browning HP, so I know that can be done, too.

Bill

That was probably the Apex Duty/Carry upgrade. I did that for my M&P 45 and made a big difference.

Ron

[gray wolf]

1911 pattern guns do not need a 3.5# trigger pull to work.
It depends on who does the work and the quality of the parts.

Some people like to drop the slide on a 1911 with an empty chamber,
good by nice trigger job.

Some like to drop a single round in the chamber and slam the slide closed over it.
Bad for the extractor.

Shot a Sig 1911 over the weekend, beautiful pistol. checkered front grip, ambi safety,
tight slide, parked finish, target sights, snake skin grips and main spring housing.
Had an internal (normal ) and an external extractor showing.

Trigger was absolutely horrible, creepy, crunchy, and about 6-7 pounds.
The guy said the pistol listed for about $1,200

This pistol was set up for target shooting, I guess you could duty carry it even with the target sights.

As it was without trigger work, the pistol would be useless to me.
It needed a 3# trigger or at least a 4.5 # with a clean break.

[robertbank]

I think you have to understand most of the pistols you run into are not designed to shoot bullseye shooting. They are, in the main, made for LEO/Military work. The IPSC/IDPA crowd use them. With some use of trigger parts and loving care be turned into pistols with very nice smooth triggers. In short you can still buy pistols for bullseye shooting BUT the present market for civilians tends to be action shooting as in IPSC/USPSA and IDPA and guns made for CCW/home defense. The latter uses don't require triggers that break like glass at 3lbs but do require the guns to be very reliable with, quick to access sights.

I shoot a fair amount of IPSC and IDPA and the only pistols I see jamming consistently are the 1911's due to poor lubrication, ammo or having not been cleaned. Parts breakage for the most part is not common at matches I have been to. They do occur, eg. my striker broke on my M&P at a match. It was an early model with the original striker in it. I knew the early guns had a problem with the strikers and should have replaced it earlier. Other than that one incident guns I have used have been dead reliable including CZ, Tanfoglio, STI, Ruger, S&W and FN. I have used SIGS in competition but they do work - our JTF -2 boys use them so they must be capable.

If you are looking for an all steel gun you should be able to find a CZ that will meet your needs. They are easily the most accurate of the guns I have shot. Their CZ97B in 45acp will shoot with the best of 1911`s out of the box. Mine needs a set of decent sights. The ones on it are meant for younger eyes.

Take Care

Bob

[FergusonTO35]

Browning Hi-Power. Just a beautiful gun all the way around!!

[johnson1942]

i guess im to old to understand what the new striker trigger guns are all about. if they are supposed to be about combat i dont get it. when i was carrying a handgun way back for combat the last thing i wanted to think about was a trigger i had to think about. i thought about can i put a round into the center of the guy trying to put one in me. i also loved the m1 and the bar i could really hit with those guns. i was really good at kentucky windage as i learned that hunting before i went in in 1960. im going to look up the CZ-97b .45 and see what that is about. also i see 1911 and browning hipowers are still avail. and i bet if they were tuned right they could be fast and shoot dead on. thanks guys, keep the info coming, im learning a lot.

[robertbank]

johnson1942 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?24715-johnson1942) I`m 69 and soon to enter the eighth decade and have to say the M&P`s and Glocks bring a whole new meaning of reliability. Too, they are relatively inexpensive. LEO departments love them because they cost little, fill a void and allow for money to be spent in law enforcement that has higher pay back. They work for what I want in a gun, that is to allow me to play two games better than I could otherwise. That said I just bought a new CZ Shadowline for twice what I paid for my M&P FS for no other reason than it looks great, shoots better and because I can.

Nice to have choices in a changing world. Love to be here 50 years from now and see what gin folks are discussing but that isn`t likely going to happen.

All the best

Bob

[DrCaveman]

My dad, about you two's age, beat me to buying a striker fired handgun, it was the smith m&p 9mm

I was surprised, his most modern firearm prior was the colt trooper III. I shot it poorly the first time, but then i shot my revolvers double action a bit later. Went back and shot the m&p, thinking of it as double action, and it shot better than the smith m19...double action. For me.

I still like my 1911 single action break better, or my cimarron saa 45, or the single action use of any of my DA revolvers, but for a dual-action-only gun, i think the m&p is pretty good

[robertbank]

Interesting discussion. MY IDPA gun us most often a M&P Pro with a 3lb trigger. My home defense gun (nothing that follows is true if the RCMP are listening) is a M&P 40 with a 6lb trigger and or a CZ 85 Combat with an eight pound DA trigger.

Take Care

Bob

[garym1a2]

I like my 3 glocks quite a bit, for their purpose they are very good. But to tune them to get near the trigger pull of a bad 1911 makes the Glock very unsafe.
with practice its no problem to shoot them well. I also have hear that the CZ75 types have triggers almost as good as 1911's

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Col Jeff Cooper was here years ago and I remember him saying the Glock has a trigger that is hard to make good marksmanship work with. I laughed and laughed. The striker pin guns are popular because they are cheap. I'm a LEO and our Dept. issues them. There's another issue, the courts don't like LEO's to have their shootings reviewed and find the gun used was altered from factory specs. Glocks come out of the box into the holster and pass inspection after a shooting with that box checked clean and the bean counters are happy.

I stick with the 1911 because the trigger pull is everything when it comes to hitting.

There are the strong pro-Glock voices in law enforcement too but you won't hear it from me. The High Power and and the 1911 are in a totally different class from the Glock. Union wages helped to make striker pin guns popular on the market, they will always cost less than the older designs.

[robertbank]

Well in fairness, the Hi-Power designed by Sauve has a trigger out of the box about on the same level as a Glock or worse.

Pumping out polymer frames via injection molding has to be cheaper than casting/forging a steel frame then finishing by hand for the most part.

The Browning does have sex appeal that Glock could only dream about. Beyond looks, until the CZ/Tanfoglio came out was there a equal or better grip on a pistol better than a HiPower?? I don't think so.

Take Care

Bob

[KYCaster]

i guess im to old to understand what the new striker trigger guns are all about. if they are supposed to be about combat i dont get it. when i was carrying a handgun way back for combat the last thing i wanted to think about was a trigger i had to think about. i thought about can i put a round into the center of the guy trying to put one in me. i also loved the m1 and the bar i could really hit with those guns. i was really good at kentucky windage as i learned that hunting before i went in in 1960. im going to look up the CZ-97b .45 and see what that is about. also i see 1911 and browning hipowers are still avail. and i bet if they were tuned right they could be fast and shoot dead on. thanks guys, keep the info coming, im learning a lot.



The only thing you need to understand is......it has nothing at all to do with marksmanship or "combat", and everything to do with economics.

Gaston Glock, who introduced the "modern" striker fired semi-auto, designed a gun that could be sold in large quantities at less than half the cost of S&W and Sig, who dominated the market at the time.

Add the passive "safe action" that substantially reduced the initial training required to become "proficient" with the firearm and the bean counters were really impressed.

Didn't matter that failure rates were astronomical, factory support was good and parts were cheap. Didn't matter that negligent discharges were common, just increase the trigger pull weight (New York Trigger) to the point that it was hard to discharge. Didn't matter that qualification scores took a nose dive, just lower your standards. Didn't matter that it has the ergonomics of a 2X4, most or your recruits never held a gun before so they don't know what a good grip feels like.

After all, very few LEO's ever discharge their firearms in the line of duty, so it really doesn't matter, statistically.....and you have 17 rounds in the gun and two spare mags on your belt.....if 50 rounds don't get the job done, let the lawyers work it out.

I hope that kinda clears it up for you. I'm sure I'll get some flack for expressing my opinion, but that's OK, I'm willing to answer questions or defend my position if necessary.

Jerry

[NavyVet1959]

Didn't matter that it has the ergonomics of a 2X4, most or your recruits never held a gun before so they don't know what a good grip feels like.

Awh, come on... That's rather insulting... To the 2x4s...

[GhostHawk]

I recently bought a Springfield Armory 1911 that was built back in mid 90's.

I actually bought it for my Father in Law who is a Chosen Reservoir vet.
He simply wanted to hold a 1911 like the one he had when he was in the army again.

I was surprised by just how good that trigger is, and it seems almost light to me.
A little pickup, a small amount of travel and BAM. I'll be honest, I have shot everything from .22 to .300 Weatherby Mag and this is the first gun that really "scares" me. You need a firm grip of both your intestinal fortitude and the gun. And the trigger break is smooth and like glass. And almost always happens before I'm really ready for it.

So while I worry about things like triggering off a second shot that I didn't intend, or it going off in a direction I might not be ready for.

I also trust this gun IMMENSELY! It is rock solid, it does one thing, and thanks to John Moses Browning it does it VERY well.

My real issue is that it does what I hope I never have to do, kill someone.

So how does all this relate to the OP? Well if it was me, it would be a Springfield Armory that I'd be looking at.
I've seen, and shot Glocks, Berretta's, and a sprinkling of Rugers. But that SA 1911 tops them all in my opinion.

[johnson1942]

i have learned a lot from all of you. i see why my law enforcement son sold his smith and bought a kimber 1911 .45 auto. he quaified with a perfect score on it. my two older sons grew up shooting the good shooting hand guns.i was surprised at the poor groups my younger son had with the striker fire guns. when he was young he did really well with a colt ssa 45 long colt. i never even knew the word striker fire gun untill it was explained here. i will never own one. the one gun i should have kept was the 45 long colt smith revolver i had. that gun could really shoot accurate and felt good in the hand. i always wanted a 1911 and maybe some day it will happen.another question, of all the 1911/s out their which one is the best out of the box? thanks again before hand.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

A new out of the box 1911, or bringing home a used 1911 is a cr*p shoot for quality. The nice thing about the 1911 is you can make them the way you want them. I'd recommend you start with a new in box forged steel Springfield Mil-Spec, then get the sights you want, the grips you want, some good magazines and then only customize it to what you want. If you buy a Kimber and it works, great. If it doesn't you are stuck dealing with a MIM & cast gun that really limits you to dealing with Kimber customer service. There are Smith's and Colt's which are good but they all have the lawyer linkage in the trigger, frame and slide called the firing pin block. Kimber has their own lawyer linkage too. That's why the Springfield Mil-Spec is such a good choice. The Colt Series 70 doesn't have the lawyer linkage but the Colt costs more and I think the Springfield Mil-Spec is a better gun. Personally I have Colt's. Several Colt's 1911's. I like to have the grip safety, trigger, etc. installed by a custom shop which is another reason why I like the Mil-Spec and the Series 70 Colt over all the other 1911's. If you buy a Springfield TRP or any other out of the box finished customized 1911 you still get the firing pin block and the parts all installed by some guy in the factory, if you get a good one you are money, if you get a problem child, then you've got some issues that can be difficult to deal with. I've seen problems with about all the ones that have been out for a while. A Springfield Mil-Spec is a good foundation to start with. Of course the Ed Brown's and Les Baer's are in a separate category for price and quality for those of us that work for a living.

[robertbank]

KYCaster (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?14-KYCaster) sums it pretty good. Things have evolved though from the Glock. Springfield imports the XDM series and out of the box they are very accurate. They are not target pistols and are not made for bulls eye shooting but they certainly are effective out to 25 yards in most hands. I don't own one but two of my shooting buddies do and they manage quite well. The M&P line continues to evolve and is the platform I shoot. The grip is very close to the CZ grip and perhaps closer after a little carving on the removable grip panel (IDPA Legal). Again the pistol is not designed for target work but is certainly more than adequate for the purpose it is built for. It won't be long before you see optic sights on officers pistols. The slide mounted versions are already on action pistols and Smith & Wesson have come out with their CORE model of the M&P which is set up for most popular slide mounted optics.

I am rather involved in the action shooting games where most of the interest now lies. The old standards of static shooting into a bulls eye target are not particularly relevant in the LEO/Military scene and not in action shooting where the striker fired guns, including the Glock excel. The 1911 does well in this environment as well but is costly to build which makes them an expensive and unjustifiably so for LEO departments that provide guns to their officers.

Take care

Bob

[KYCaster]

Best out of the box?

STI........their cheapest one (Spartan) is way ahead of most of the competition.

Springfield Armory Range Officer.......I know several people who run them in competition right out of the box. The only thing they may need is a trigger job.

Jerry

[robertbank]

Best out of the box?

STI........their cheapest one (Spartan) is way ahead of most of the competition.


I have to differ there or at least my experience has been different. The guns come out of the Philippines and are finished by STI. One of our IPSC shooters seldom gets through a match without a jam of some kind. They are a nice entry level gun but are not any better than a number of entry level 1911's in my opinion. The STI Trojan is a whole different matter and runs circles around the quality of the Spartan. Just two different opinions on the same gun.

Take Care

Bob

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

if you compare a striker fired auto to a double action revolver , you get shorter pull , more rounds , faster reload and about equal accuracy and have it broken down and cleaned in no time and you can build a striker fired auto for a lot less than they charge for them and what they charge is still nearly half what a good DA revolver is

if you want to get good at shooting strikers get out the DA revolver and do a bunch of dry fire training , then switch to the striker and it will feel lite and short

[KYCaster]

I have to differ there or at least my experience has been different. The guns come out of the Philippines and are finished by STI. One of our IPSC shooters seldom gets through a match without a jam of some kind. They are a nice entry level gun but are not any better than a number of entry level 1911's in my opinion. The STI Trojan is a whole different matter and runs circles around the quality of the Spartan. Just two different opinions on the same gun.

Take Care

Bob


Until recently, all of STI's guns were made entirely in the USA. I won't swear to it, but I think everything except the springs and plastic parts (wide body grips) were made and assembled at their plant in Texas.

That changed with the introduction of the Trojan. STI parts were shipped to the Philippines and assembled by Armscor. The Spartan had frame, slide and barrel sent to Armscor and assembled using their parts. Other than the Trojan and Spartan, their guns are 100% American made.

For many years, STI has been the most popular 1911/2011 used in USPSA competition. Most of the custom gunsmiths who build guns for USPSA start with STI frame and slide. Many of them start with a "short block".....frame, slide and barrel properly fitted at the factory because they lack the knowledge or skill to do that work themselves.....

.....so, when you see the STI logo on a gun, that doesn't mean the gun was built by STI. If you buy the factory built gun from an authorized dealer, you can be confident that it will perform as expected.

I stand by my earlier post. The only reason I didn't include Armscor in that post is that over the years their quality has been somewhat variable. At times they have produced some very good guns.

Jerry

[Ehaver]

I might be a bit late to this thread, but I am willing to bet the S&W was an M&P. The one and only thing I do not like about mine is the trigger. I am planning on swaping the tirgger to the Apex. Thats what you could do for him, buy him one of those and have it installed. They are not very expensive, arround $100 and are supposed to make a world of difference. You can also get a trigger job done, but may as well go with the new trigger.

[pmer]

My first striker fired pistol was a S&W Sigma in .40 S&W. It went bang but wasn't much for accuracy. So I traded it and went a while with out the thought of one. Then some years ago during the aftermath of New Town, Conn. I picked up a Gen 4 Glock 19, 9mm. The generation 4 has the different back straps for different sized hands and after five or six boxes of ammo it broke in and turned into a good shooter for a double action only style firearm. But the darn thing was pregnant and it had a 26 and then a 30 too. The 30 shoots better than the 19 for me. If I was after a full sized "modern" pistol I'd get him a Glock 21, 45 ACP. Or go all the way and get a Colt, Gold Cup they come with adjustable sights and 2 recoil springs one for target loads and one for full power.

[Petrol & Powder]

You have to watch out for those pregnant guns :). Bring one home and the next thing you know, you're buying a bigger safe.

[NavyVet1959]

The generation 4 has the different back straps for different sized hands and after five or six boxes of ammo it broke in and turned into a good shooter for a double action only style firearm

The Glocks are NOT double-action. They're probably closer to being single-action -- single-action with a crappy trigger is probably a better description. They have certain good attributes, but their trigger is not one of them.

[NavyVet1959]

You have to watch out for those pregnant guns :). Bring one home and the next thing you know, you're buying a bigger safe.

I know what you mean... I was browsing Armslist.com the other day and next thing I knew, a CZ-75 was calling my name...

[Petrol & Powder]

Allow me to address the OP.

Asking about modern pistols with decent triggers is a bit of a subjective question. What is a decent trigger? One that is great for target shooting? One that is good for fast combat style shooting ?
If you're talking to someone that shoots S&W model 41's, Colt Woodsman's, 1911's and the like; well it's going to have to be a crisp single action. If you're talking to a guy that shoots DA revolvers, you may be looking at a S&W Model 27 or a Colt Python.
If you're talking to an IDPA competitor or a police officer that has never owned anything in his life other than a Glock,... well you get the point.

I've shot a large variety of semi-auto pistols and when we're talking about types of triggers, we're in a big field. In fact, a huge field.
Comparing the trigger of say a H&K P7 to a 1911 is not really a level playing field. They're both "sort-of" single actions but vastly different in operation. Comparing the trigger of a customized Ruger Mark II to an out of the box Beretta model 92 is apples & oranges.

I think Johnson1942 is a bit of a curmudgeon and that's a compliment coming from me !

It took me a long time to warm up to Glocks. It wasn't the plastic, it wasn't the appearance, it wasn't the performance...it was the trigger. The trigger was just weird to me. It wasn't a single action and it wasn't a double action. I was very resistant to Glocks for a long time but I continued to be impressed with the pistol. Eventually I warmed up to the concept and I believe the Glock is an excellent combat pistol. Striker fired plastic guns have their place. It will never be a 1911 or a S&W 645, but it does work and it works well.

There are some great pistols available these days and there is some true junk out there. For the record, I still like my DA revolvers more than a Glock. I think Johnson1942 can find something that is modern that he likes. However, it may be a long process.

Cheers :drinks:

[Petrol & Powder]

And for some general entertainment:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KnBDIbgbMk

[Outpost75]

Lawyer triggers.....

[Petrol & Powder]

Lawyer triggers.....

I'm afraid you are correct on that, /\ unfortunately, more often that not.

[robertbank]

I might be a bit late to this thread, but I am willing to bet the S&W was an M&P. The one and only thing I do not like about mine is the trigger. I am planning on swaping the tirgger to the Apex. Thats what you could do for him, buy him one of those and have it installed. They are not very expensive, arround $100 and are supposed to make a world of difference. You can also get a trigger job done, but may as well go with the new trigger.

The Apex Competition or Duty Kit will solve the M&P trigger for you. The M&P PRO I compete with has the Competition Kit in it and it is a very sweet 3.5# trigger. You won't be disappointed.

Take Care

Bob

[LUBEDUDE]

Sig Sauer P220, the finest production 45 made, and only handgun I would own.
They come in girlie calibers too

Yeah right, I drank that Koolaid Years ago. Took the gun out to shoot it and it made me limp! What a gyp! Just a glorified Glock.

Don't get me wrong, I have a handful of Sigs. Don't know why? Even bought the Ernie Langdon model, which is a fancied up 220. Went Limp!

The only Sig that I own worth mentioning is their X-5. I guess because it is SA only.

As the saying goes, different strokes..... For ME a real 45 is the 1911!

[NavyVet1959]

Yeah right, I drank that Koolaid Years ago. Took the gun out to shoot it and it made me limp! What a gyp! Just a glorified Glock.

Don't get me wrong, I have a handful of Sigs. Don't know why? Even bought the Ernie Langdon model, which is a fancied up 220. Went Limp!

The only Sig that I own worth mentioning is their X-5. I guess because it is SA only.

As the saying goes, different strokes..... For ME a real 45 is the 1911!

I recently bought a CZ-75D Compact that someone local had listed on Armslist. I didn't have a particular reason to buy one, but for some reason, I just did not have a CZ in my collection, so I decided to buy it. I had thought that I was buying a CZ-75B Compact and thus it had a steel frame and safety so that it could be carried cocked-and-locked, but it has the DA/SA trigger and an alloy frame. Oh well... The DA trigger is rather heavy and the serrations on the trigger would probably rub a blister on your finger if you fired it a lot in DA mode. Probably need to take a dremel to the trigger along with some polishing compound to take the edges off the serrations. It's basically the same size as the Colt Officer's Model. I had thought that might be appropriate for my wife, but I'm pretty sure that the DA trigger is too heavy for her and she would have trouble operating the slide.

[robertbank]

Go shoot that 75 D (the D is for decocker). You are going to be in for a treat. The trigger gets better with age. Mine shoots like a laser. Some replace the trigger with one from the 85 Combat which is smooth.

Take Care

Bob

[NavyVet1959]

Go shoot that 75 D (the D is for decocker).

Yeah, I know that, but for some reason, I was thinking it was a B model... Brain fart, I guess...


You are going to be in for a treat. The trigger gets better with age. Mine shoots like a laser. Some replace the trigger with one from the 85 Combat which is smooth.


I've been kind of dry firing it in DA mode a lot... Put a lanyard through the hammer so that the hammer does not drop all the way while pulling the trigger. That's how I realized that extended firing in DA mode would probably give someone a blister on their trigger finger. :)

[robertbank]

I really think you are going to find you have a real shooter in your hands. The 75B Compact is the same size but weighs quite a bit more. If you carry that gun you will soon appreciate it's lighter weight. I find it shoots as accurately as my full size CZ's. Mine just needs night sights to be perfect.

Take Care

Bob

[MtGun44]

Frankly, a S&W M&P .45 ACP with an Apex trigger kit, properly done has a very good
trigger. Not a 2 lb 1911 trigger, but very useable, nothing to complain about.
To my hand the M&P .45 with the thumb safety and an Apex trigger kit is one of
the best of the new class of service pistols.

Still prefer my 1911s, but that one is a really usable pistol.

6bg6ga,

Nothing magical to make a 2 lb trigger pull for a 1911, but you need good parts
and need to do it right. IMO, most trigger mechs suck. Only oafs cannot get a safe
trigger below 3.5 lb. I use stock angles, NEVER reduce the hammer spring below
stock, and can go to 1 lb if I wanted to. I have been doing and using 2 lb triggers for
25 years in competition and plinking, many tens of thousands of rounds without
change. MIM Kimber stock parts, Ed Brown parts, even most Colt parts will do
it. Not magic, just careful polish and using a jig for the sear. I do the hammer
by hand because they are just a 90 deg hook, and just need to be perfectly even
(load both hooks the same) square and VERY smooth, shortened to my spec. Sear is
polished super smooth and has a std back relief, and the three finger spring is then set
up correctly to keep the sear and trigger forces balanced properly. I think most folks
that work triggers can't actually see what they are doing. I use 10X magnification and
can see very well up close, so I can fit the parts properly - especially getting both hooks
on the hammer in even contact. Many "trigger jobs" have only one hook touching.
Checking this with blue and/or external pins is critical.

You can take any of my triggers - and I test this from time to time in service, even though
it makes others cringe - drop the slide on an empty chamber and see if the trigger
bounce will drop the hammer to half cock. If one of mine does this EVER, it is a
problem, so I fix it. Either the angle is wrong, one hook is not touching evenly or
the three finger spring is out of adjustment. One never leaves the bench if it can't pass
2 or 3 of these. Never had one go bad this way, either. Oh, I do insist on a light
trigger, I never had a problem but a heavy all steel long trigger seems to be a possible
issue with trigger bounce, so I like the light aluminum or plastic ones.

Bill

[johnson1942]

thanks again for all the input. to day i have to drive to the big city to have a tooth pulled. i want to check out every browning hi power i can find, then i will go from their. i want to see if the new browning hipowers compare at all with the old ones. wish i would have kept the one i had years and years ago.

[robertbank]

thanks again for all the input. to day i have to drive to the big city to have a tooth pulled. i want to check out every browning hi power i can find, then i will go from their. i want to see if the new browning hipowers compare at all with the old ones. wish i would have kept the one i had years and years ago.

Same gun. Compared to day's pistols, the Hi-Power has a poor trigger that can be made into a reasonably good trigger. Sauve just didn't get that part right. If you like the Hi-Power than take a hard look at the CZ's in particular the 75B/SP-01. Comes with a decent trigger that can be made very, very good.

Take Care

Bob

[Piedmont]

thanks again for all the input. to day i have to drive to the big city to have a tooth pulled. i want to check out every browning hi power i can find, then i will go from their. i want to see if the new browning hipowers compare at all with the old ones. wish i would have kept the one i had years and years ago.

The new ones with the cast frames have a better safety, one you can manipulate quickly, and are stronger, but the old ones have a better feel in the hand. The original grip frame is rounder and possibly a hair thinner. The magic of how a Hi Power feels in the hand exists only for the older ones in my opinion, and I own both, though hands vary I admit.

[Rick Hodges]

The only thing you need to understand is......it has nothing at all to do with marksmanship or "combat", and everything to do with economics.

Gaston Glock, who introduced the "modern" striker fired semi-auto, designed a gun that could be sold in large quantities at less than half the cost of S&W and Sig, who dominated the market at the time.

Add the passive "safe action" that substantially reduced the initial training required to become "proficient" with the firearm and the bean counters were really impressed.

Didn't matter that failure rates were astronomical, factory support was good and parts were cheap. Didn't matter that negligent discharges were common, just increase the trigger pull weight (New York Trigger) to the point that it was hard to discharge. Didn't matter that qualification scores took a nose dive, just lower your standards. Didn't matter that it has the ergonomics of a 2X4, most or your recruits never held a gun before so they don't know what a good grip feels like.

After all, very few LEO's ever discharge their firearms in the line of duty, so it really doesn't matter, statistically.....and you have 17 rounds in the gun and two spare mags on your belt.....if 50 rounds don't get the job done, let the lawyers work it out.

I hope that kinda clears it up for you. I'm sure I'll get some flack for expressing my opinion, but that's OK, I'm willing to answer questions or defend my position if necessary.

Jerry


Amen Brother!

[canyon-ghost]

Okay, now you all are responsible for me dry firing my Springfield XDm! It's alright, I use snap caps. Trigger take up ends at about a pound with an approximate of 2-3 lbs to fire. You sure know how to hurt a guys' feelings. I won't check the trigger on my P938, it's way toooo single action light. This has been an interesting thread to read. One of my contenders has an extremely light trigger and I've noticed that marksmanship isn't necessarily any easier. A scope makes it even more of a challenge, with even more precision possible (more sight picture movement too).

Thanks for the read,
Ron

[Char-Gar]

In any comparison between any modern autopistol and a vintage Smith and Wesson revolver, as far as the trigger pull goes, the autopistol will lose every time.

They handguns are designed for different purpose, at a different time in history for a different breed of shooters.

Most autopistols are defense/combat weapons where super light and crisp triggers are not needed or wanted, so they don't have them. Also an autopistol has more moving parts than revolvers and that complicate the mechanics quite a bit.

If you want a light and crisp trigger for recreation and target shooting you will have to buy one of the high end target model pistols from Kimber of similar maker. A lower end pistol can be given a good trigger, but now you are into a gunsmithing job.