Lathe work. Parts and junk to get a Comblain shooting

[Buckshot]

.........This not so much about the little carbine as the stuff done to get it shooting. Made in Belgium by Emil Nagant for the Brazillian military. The cartridge designation for the carbine was 11.15x42R. A short squatty 'no-neck' oddity.

http://www.fototime.com/8D5A5CECA08BE93/standard.jpg
as you can see in this chamber cast, there isn't a SIGN of a caseneck. Yet you DO have to have one to hold the slug. The early ammo for this was the same foil type as the early Boxer type for the 577-450 Martini.

http://www.fototime.com/34EA4235E0A4A6D/standard.jpg
Early case mangleing. As you can see the caseneck goes away at firing. I used several different cartridge size dies, decappers, bits of pipe and all manner of other junk in wrestleing the Mag-Tech 32 guage brass shotshell into SOME semblance to get them into the chamber of the carbine.

Pretty casual, but I was just trying to get a handle on the thing. I also had no machine capable of making anything even halfway sophisticated so far as tooling went.

http://www.fototime.com/FEB48295FDD2804/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/DC987B812F647C3/standard.jpg
So in the meantime I'd gotten my 11" Logan. These dies (size and seater) were made from the front struts off an '86 Chevy Celebrity. I thought they were highly polished. WRONG! They were hard chromed. I tried to cut threads on'em with HSS and it turned blue and squeeled. This was a job for the CARBIDES so I used a laydown carbide threading insert. Piece a cake.

All the internal boring was done with HSS. The shellholder was made using a ground to form piece of 1/4" drill blank to cut the rim reccess.

http://www.fototime.com/063900A27065387/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/7C6776752B29618/standard.jpg
This is the process with the Mag-Tech 32 gauge brass shotshells. The head area is still just a bit small in the OD, but the rim diameter and most the rest is fine. At this time these cases used a Berdan Primer. Strictly in the realm of unobtainium here except their really crappy ones. The plan then was to convert them to use 209 shotshell primers.

http://www.fototime.com/8A2C7C8756BDCD9/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/EA42AD18D042DA2/standard.jpg
The pockets had to be drilled out and a step cut to accept the 209 primers flange. Easiest wasy to do it with the setup I had was in a 5C collet. I have these in steps of 32nds. They're only good for a few thousandths either side of thier listed size. A 5/8ths came closest. I had to make the collet on the right to take up the windage however. I'm rather proud of it as it required a bit of fussy machining.

Rather then starting and stopping the lathe for each case, the intermediate collet allowed me to leave the lathe running, but merely open the collet and the flange let me pluck it out, case and all. The collet was then placed on the next case and stuck back in the spinning 5C, which was then closed.

Since it was brass I ground and hardened a piece of W-1 steel to bore the hole to size and cut the flange relief all at one time. Worked nice.

..............Buckshot

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/FB833F810B2C0FE/standard.jpg
All sized, setup for the 209 primers and loaded. The paper is to take up a bit of the excess space in the chamber so the brass will expand evenly. After a couple firings the paper can come off as the expanded brass will center itself.

To date the Mag-Tech brass has easily handled the pretty hefty neck sizing stuff without a whimper. Now all the Mag-Tech brass shotshells come with boxer primers to take large pistol primers.

Wouldn't that full length, full size 32 guage shell make a heckuva BP cartridge? Hmmmmmmm. Ouch! It hurts to think about it.

http://www.fototime.com/2814C9B404C7122/standard.jpg
Capping and de-capping tools for the 209 conversion cases. The threaded piece on the left is cut as a shellholder and threads into a press merely as a means to be held. The rod punches out the primer. On the right are the priming tools. A primer is set on the tool on a little raised piece in the center and then the case goes over it. The rod on the right with the hole on the end is placed in the case and then the case is driven down over the primer.

..............Buckshot

[Swagerman]

Very interesting cartridge and your solution to making it all work.

Good photos to boot.

Swagerman

[Linstrum]

Hey, there, Buckshot, looks like yer doin' good!

I remember when you started on that project, and it did take a bit of perseverance for you to get it to the point of being able to shoot it! Have you figured the ballistics for it? From the velocity and whatever weight pill that you cast for it, I would be curious what the foot-pounds energy is that it generates.

I'm curious, where did you find the rifle, and where did you ever find any information on the history and origin of the Comblain? I have several NRA Library books on the history of cartridge arms and the Comblain is not mentioned in the particular texts I have. Long ago a man I worked for had an old Belgian Nagant .36" smooth bore front stuffer cap-fired musket that was a trade gun he had brought back from the jungles of South America in the 1930s. According to its owner, it had served the natives there for a time shooting nutria, capybara, spider monkeys, and other natives for fur, meat, and heads to shrink. That is the only other Nagant-made gun I have ever seen.

HOO WEE! Yup, that full length 32-gauge brass shot shell would make a shoulder thumper of a BPC rifle, alright. Copy the Comblain in ASI-4130 or 4140 steel and chamber it for the 32 gauge.

[carpetman]

Where did Buckshot get information for the Comblain? He got confused--what he wanted was a concubine.

[Scrounger]

Where did Buckshot get information for the Comblain? He got confused--what he wanted was a concubine.

He already has a mistress; "her name" is "Lathe"...

[David R]

Awesome project. YOU made chicken salad out of chicken sh*t.

David

[Frank46]

Darn it Buckshot you went and did it again. Just where do you find those old jewels??.
Here in loosiana if something like either the comblain or your martini showed up the price would be astrnomical and the bs story as well. One dealer had a martini 12-or 12-15 with carved stock and a very sloppy tang type sight. Was asking $700 for it. Last I saw it the dealer still was asking the same price. I did see a takedown 22 martini. The bbl had a lever which you rotated and then rotated the bbl about a quarter turn to remove it. Stock was all beat up, rusty and the hole in the bbl was like a coal mine. My buddy wanted it until he saw the bbl. I have a spare bbl at home but the rest of the rifle did not justify the $450 asking price. And only once in ten years have I seen a martini (greener from navy arms) in 45-70. He wanted $500 for it. Ah well one of these days. Shoulda picked up one of those 45-70 enfields gibbs was selling. Frank

[Buckshot]

..........Thanks for the interest and the kind words. I do appreciate them. So far as Scroungers comment:
"He already has a mistress; "her name" is "Lathe"..."

You are very close to the truth there :D

"I'm curious, where did you find the rifle, and where did you ever find any information on the history and origin of the Comblain?"

Info on the rifle-carbine can be found at: http://www.militaryrifles.com/MAINIndx.htm

I was high bidder on it at Auction Arms, about 7 years ago I guess. From the same seller I was high bidder on a M1902 Rem RB in 7x57 and the Comblain. I already had a Rem RB like that so I sold it to a friend. The Comblain was too cute and too unusual to get rid of.

I'd only heard of one other and that was by a BPCR silhuette guy on the old Shooters.com board. His had been rebarreled to 45-70. I will post some photo's of it over on the military rifle forum, as that's probably where they ought to go.

..............Buckshot

[Bent Ramrod]

Thanks for the rundown on making cartridges for the Comblain, Buckshot. A friend of mine bought one, and bought some ammunition from Dangerous Dave the Old Western Scrounger. After firing a couple shots, he was convinced he'd gotten the wrong ammunition. Then we looked in the chamber and were wondering what amateur had reamed out the leade and neck, and how and why he did such a careful job. Thanks for clearing up the mystery. I'll let him know and put him onto this site.

[lar45]

I was going to suggest making a reamer to cut a neck, but it looks like you've got it shooting very well.
Very nice job BTW.

[Buckshot]

I was going to suggest making a reamer to cut a neck, but it looks like you've got it shooting very well.
Very nice job BTW.

I really cannot understand whay it was chambered that way. The cartridge had a neck so why not have a similar chamber? Beats me all to heck. I hope to be able to lathe bore my own boolit moulds before too much longer and if/when I do, one of the first will be one for the Comblain with a .465" diamater.

................Buckshot

[lar45]

I really cannot understand whay it was chambered that way. The cartridge had a neck so why not have a similar chamber? Beats me all to heck. I hope to be able to lathe bore my own boolit moulds before too much longer and if/when I do, one of the first will be one for the Comblain with a .465" diamater.

................Buckshot

Are you going to make the lube grooves deep enough to match the bore?

[Buckshot]

"Are you going to make the lube grooves deep enough to match the bore?"

...........Probably have to, doncha think? Although the ones at .459" didn't lead at all, and I think the lube grooves were more then .433" (shallower). MAybe I can make a kind of tapered slug with a .465" base band, or even a modest HB?

Now that I was thinking of it, I remember shooting it in the Burrito match once. I didn't win, but as I recall (maybe TOO fondly :D) it didn't do too bad.

..............Buckshot

[Linstrum]

Hi, Buckshot, how ya doin'? After looking at the chamber casting photo it began to look real familiar. It seems to me that the cartridge originally employed used a heeled bullet of the same concept that gave us the nearly 160-year-old .22 short, long, and long rifle family of cartridges, and except for being larger and tapered, the chamber casting from a .22 looks just like the Comblain’s. I haven't heard of any cartridges of that once common design surviving to this day where the outside diameter of the cartridge mouth is the same as the outside diameter of the bullet, except for those old venerable .22s. A heeled bullet would certainly explain the throat design, as well as fit, no questions asked! Since the cartridge is tapered, it is actually a moot point whether or not you use a heeled bullet because the taper will accommodate the slight difference in cartridge mouth diameters. Judging from the target photos you posted, though, there is no point in investigating their use now unless satisfying some curiosity. Never mess with success!

[Buckshot]

..............They very well could have been heeled. The Brazilians were rather untidy in their martial arms and ammunition aquisitions and modifications and alterations. If you click on that link in my post and go to the Comblain sections and Comblain ammunition sub-sections you'll see the various cartridges they used in these (and a few other countries also).

Most show as being paper patched, as that was pretty much a fact of life back in them ole days for military rifles. I have never in my life seen or even heard of a Comblain until this one crossed my path.

.............Buckshot