winchester '86 in 45-70 need loads for

[shdwlkr]

A friend has a new winchester '86 in 45-70 and is loading J-word bullets and they are kicking really good with the loads he has. I am trying to get him converted to lead but it is a process.
Any good loads you guys/gals know of that don't kick like a mad mule?
300 grain bullets being used might go up to 350 grain
thanks for the help

[303carbine]

A friend has a new winchester '86 in 45-70 and is loading J-word bullets and they are kicking really good with the loads he has. I am trying to get him converted to lead but it is a process.
Any good loads you guys/gals know of that don't kick like a mad mule?
300 grain bullets being used might go up to 350 grain
thanks for the help


I shoot an 86 Win 45-70, I use the traditional 405 grain cast bullet with IMR 4198, I get just under 1700 fps with the 20 inch barrel on my 86 carbine.
The Lyman cast bullet book has lots of data for the 86, I have never shot a j-word bullet out of my 86.

[M-Tecs]

My favorite 45/70 plinking load is 10 grains of Unique under a 385 grain cast. It becomes an overgrown 22. Larry Gibson recommends a lighter buller with Bullseye. I haven't tried it yet. With the 45/70 you can go from very mild to wild. A buddy purched an 86 for a bear hunt. He stopped shooting it because it kicked too much. Started him on the 10 grains of Unique under a 385 grain cast. He shoots it a lot now.

[fouronesix]

A nice, mild and accurate load I shoot in my 86s in 45-70 is between 20-25 gr 5744 with low density dacron filler under fairly soft alloy RCBS 300 FNGC (actually drops closer to 325 gr) sized to .459".

[smokeywolf]

IMR 4198, 3031 and XMR 5744 are perhaps the most widely used for cast in 45-70. If it's a pre-"Nickel Steel" barrel best to stick with BP pressures.

smokeywolf

[fouronesix]

The OP stated new Win 86 so should be a Miroku gun. Those things can handle the stiffest Marlin loads and beyond but the idea was milder for reasons of recoil.

Mercy, if a heavy Win 86 lever kicks too hard with regular factory type loads that are usually loaded to trapdoor specs, don't even think of recommending to your friend a stubby Marlin loaded to the hilt with high pressure, heavy bullet, north woods "Bar Busters". :)

[kenn]

I'm shooting 12gr of Unique behind a 340 grain bullet and it's quite mild and fun as heck to shoot.

[GL49]

The OP stated new Win 86 so should be a Miroku gun. Those things can handle the stiffest Marlin loads and beyond but the idea was milder for reasons of recoil.

Does the same apply to the Browning 1886 copy of the Winchester? Can it be loaded to Marlin specifications?

[fouronesix]

Does the same apply to the Browning 1886 copy of the Winchester? Can it be loaded to Marlin specifications?

Yes. New Browning and Winchester 86s are basically the same gun. No worries about loading to Marlin pressures. But some folks load Marlins to pressures I wouldn't touch.

Lyman data lumps Win 86s and Marlins into the same pressure category and actually take into account the original post BP Win 86s. So no doubt the modern 86s which are of even better steel can handle it.

[GL49]

I'm going to go out to the garage and load 10 at a starting load, 405 gr. bullets, (yes, bullets :oops: ) and 3031 powder. I'll report back what it's like. Loading the trapdoor level and older winchester lever action level loads with boolits aren't too bad.

[rintinglen]

A favorite of mine is the 457-192, a 350 grain boolit, loaded with 20-22 grains of Unique. Recoil is substantially less than the "big boy" loads but accuracy remains good. I have not been able to obtain the good results that many report with Unique, but YMMV.

[M-Tecs]

A favorite of mine is the 457-192, a 350 grain boolit, loaded with 20-22 grains of Unique. Recoil is substantially less than the "big boy" loads but accuracy remains good. I have not been able to obtain the good results that many report with Unique, but YMMV.

That is more Unique than I have every seen listed for Ruger #1's. What's the source of your load data?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?87166-Unique-45-70-Load-Data


Here's some Unique data. Source: Lyman #47
45-70 data for 1886 Winchester and 1895 Marlin only.
400gr #2 alloy
Unique 13.7grs start 1154fps 17100cup
Unique 16.5grs MAX 1286fps 27300cup
No fiber wad or filler is designated for this recipe.

420gr #2 alloy
Unique 11.0grs start 1006fps 16800cup
Unique 13.5grs MAX 1163fps 27200cup
Use 1/2gr polyester fiber wad 5/8"square x 1/4" thick over the powder.

.................................................. ...................

45-70 data for Ruger No.1 and No.3 only.
385gr #2 alloy
Unique 10.0grs start 939fps 10300cup
Unique 17.5grs MAX 1411fps 38500cup
Use 1/2gr polyester fiber wad 5/8"square x 1/4" thick over the powder.

420gr #2 alloy
Unique 13.5grs start 1113fps 22800cup
Unique 16.5grs MAX 1275fps 38200cup
Use 1/2gr polyester fiber wad 5/8"square x 1/4" thick over the powder.

451gr #2 alloy
Unique 11.0grs start 950fps 17100cup
Unique 15.2grs MAX 1209fps 40000cup
Use 1/2gr polyester fiber wad 5/8"square x 1/4" thick over the powder.

Don't bother looking for Lyman #48, Lyman #47 has much more cast bullet data.
Hope this helps, good luck.

http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f30/45-70-unique-how-hot-can-i-load-46822/index2.html

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/hr-centerfire-rifles/unique-powder-for-45-70-target-loads/?PHPSESSID=9qjibi4dgn92qsah39j6b2s2b2

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/hand-loading-for-rifles-and-handguns-sponsored-by-diamond-k-brass/unique-in-45-70-with-the-350-grain-cast/

[M-Tecs]

http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f30/45-70-unique-how-hot-can-i-load-46822/index2.html

[Le Loup Solitaire]

In my original 1886 Winchester I have always used 3031 powder with the Lyman 457124 (around 400 grains). You can start with the loading that gives you around 1200-1300 fps which is not too bad recoil-wise. You can move it up from there to whatever speed you want and can go as high as 50-53 grains (a load recommendation by the NRA tech staff) which is in the 1700+ range. Recoil is significant and you can hunt anything in the western hemisphere. LLS

[doc1876]

Black powder also gives a softer recoil

[GL49]

In my original 1886 Winchester I have always used 3031 powder with the Lyman 457124 (around 400 grains). You can start with the loading that gives you around 1200-1300 fps which is not too bad recoil-wise. You can move it up from there to whatever speed you want and can go as high as 50-53 grains (a load recommendation by the NRA tech staff) which is in the 1700+ range. Recoil is significant and you can hunt anything in the western hemisphere. LLS

Umm, yeah. Last night I loaded 10 with a starting load of 50grs of 3031, 405gr bullet, a load that I had printed out from the hodgdon website a year or two ago. Tried them today after work. Yes, recoil is attention-getting off the bench in a Browning 1886 carbine. I saved the last five and I'm going to make my brother shoot them. The steel buttplate isn't much help reducing recoil. Dang! Anybody seen any Mastadons?

[snowwolfe]

Beware that most if not all of the Miroku rifles have no throat to speak of. When other shooters told me this I just thought, hmmmm......
But after a trip to the gunsmith found out mine was exactly the same (High Grade Extra Lite) and the throat was lengthened by .250.

[dlbarr]

Umm, yeah. Last night I loaded 10 with a starting load of 50grs of 3031, 405gr bullet, a load that I had printed out from the hodgdon website a year or two ago. Tried them today after work. Yes, recoil is attention-getting off the bench in a Browning 1886 carbine. I saved the last five and I'm going to make my brother shoot them. The steel buttplate isn't much help reducing recoil. Dang! Anybody seen any Mastadons?

Yeah, I shot that load - or actually something very similar to it - out of my 1895 last trip to the range. It is stout but nothing like a 350gr backed by 55g of 4198.

I don't ever want to shoot that load again.

[NSB]

Beware that most if not all of the Miroku rifles have no throat to speak of. When other shooters told me this I just thought, hmmmm......
But after a trip to the gunsmith found out mine was exactly the same (High Grade Extra Lite) and the throat was lengthened by .250.
These guns are made to the original specs on the cartridge. I had to have my High Wall and my 1886 both lengthened that much. They shoot very, very well and will now feed everything. Hard to believe you need to do that much but I knew I had a problem and tood them both to Turnbull and got it done. Had them CC'd while they had them. Pretty happy with both now.

[plainsman456]

Might try some H-322.
It does a good job with my 325 grain cast.

[Char-Gar]

Shooting 350 to 450 grain bullet much past 1,500 fps out of a 45-70 levergun will produce nothing of value in the hunting field. You can't turn the 45-70 into a flat shooting rifle and a decent cast bullet going the above speed with shoot through and through, from any angle, any game animal in North America.

Any extra powder past that point is just going into blast, fire and recoil with nothing real to show for it.

[smokeywolf]

I very much concur with Char-Gar on this. A 405 grain boolit traveling at 1700 FPS is not likely to kill much deader than the same projectile moving at 1500 FPS. The only reason for greater velocity is if you're seeking a flatter trajectory. If that's the case, you should probably be utilizing a lighter boolit.

[aspangler]

25 gr 2400, 1/2 gr dacron, under the 405 pb flatnose boolit for 1450fps will kill anything on the NA continent. Best of all it is a trapdoor level load and recoil is about the same as a 20 ga. field load.

[TCLouis]

10.5 grains of a Milsurp #105 (be careful, there are two of these with this designation and the other is MUCH faster) which looks like and acts like Unique behind a 340 to 378 cast boolit. Gives me right at 1100 fps and is the mist accurate load on a model 86. 1100 fps is not a barn burner load, but would likely dent even the best armored deer.

REALLY accurate in my rifle too.

[RidgerunnerAk]

I've shot 3031 exclusively in my Marlin 1895's and .45-90 Win 86's and 1885 Hi walls for 40yrs.... except for my bear loads that are max H322 and beyond painful to shoot in the light Marlin. I primarily use cast 400+/-gr boolits and find, as others have, that anything over 1500fps is painful to shoot and a waste of energy and powder. The 400gr boolits will go clean through a moose at 200+ yds, a caribou at 250yds that I know of for sure. You want to really feel how they recoil, try shooting on your "off" side sometime. I'm losing the sight of my right eye and have been experimenting with shooting left-handed.... Damn, that hurts! I couldn't move my shoulder for a week. I'm going to reduce my loads and go to the more proper 300gr boolits using a Saeco mold for the .45-90's, which will shoot straighter than the 400's. I used to have a 292gr Lyman mold but can't find it. Anyone have any pet loads for a 300gr boolit in .45-70/90? I have the 3031 but also a good supply of IMR4227 I inherited and would like find a use for. Target velocity for especially the .45-90's is 1450-1500fps. I put a veggie card and cotton batting under the .45-90 boolits for filler. The HiWall is light and especially brutal on recoil vs the significantly heavier 24" 1886. The lever gun shoots especially straight with 300gr boolits if I do my part. I've had it shoot moa groups at 200 yds if I do it right. It's one hell of a moose gun I can tell you.

[303carbine]

I loaded my B-78 45-70 up to where it got almost unbearable to shoot with the crescent butt, I agree that shooting 405 grain cast bullets at 1650 fps will drop anything on this side of the globe and most of everything else in the world with a well placed shot.
The buffalo was nearly wiped off the face of the earth with heavy 45 cal bullets travelling at Trapdoor speeds.
The 7x57 Mauser in a modern action and a 45-70 in a modern action are the only two rifle cartridges needed for hunting the entire planet.

[TCLouis]

10.5 grains of Milsurp powder that compared 100% with Unique ( No, not the russki Unique) gave me 1100 fps with 340 Lee and 378 grain RD boolits.

Not a barn burner, but VERY accurate and fun to shoot.

[Reaper]

36 grains of 3031, large rifle primer and a plain base 405 grain boolit average 1275fps out of an 1884 trapdoor. I've shot them in the Winchester/Miroku 1886 take-down rifle at steel gongs out to 405 yards. The 1886 is a lot easier to shoot if you rest the crescent butt plate on the point of the shoulder rather than the pocket.