1885 in .356 win? Feasable?

[.45Cole]

So I'd REALLY like to have a .356/.358/.35 whelen caliber someday. I thought about a m1/m1a in .35 or a 788. A 1885 in .356 might be neat, as I'd only need one slug when they're that big. Is this possible, I assume that I would have to use a rimmed case for a winny/miroku 1885 or I could go rimless for the B-78. The .356 has the same rim diameter as the 30-30 family, and it's a hare smaller than the 40-65 family. I would just have to find a barrel manufacture who would make a barrel (maybe half round?) for it.
Something to ponder, your thoughts?

[Chill Wills]

Have you considered a 30-40 Krag case as the base case?
It could be necked up to 358" to meet your needs.
It also could become a 38-50 Rem Hepburn with a .375 barrel or a .379" barrel
It could also become a 40-60 Maynard using a 40 cal barrel (.400"-.408") - I have two of these and are a fav

all these are common reamers and gunsmiths - some gunsmiths make their living barreling singleshots to these calibers.

[bigted]

so i have three of the miroku offerings ... two brownings and a winny. i do not see any reason that the action could not be turned into just about whatever you desire.

i would get the hunter model or the trapper model tho and have the ejector that they have ... the BPCR just has an extractor which to my mind ... when hunting or looking for a fast reload is a poor setup ... give me a good strong ejector every time.

the miroku action and steel used in them lend a vault like lockup. very strong and i have heard it resembles the Ruger #1 in strength.

[.45Cole]

I have a Browing low wall hunter in .45 Colt and I love it. The fit and finish are absolutely beautiful. The cation looks like a tank. I was thinking that the trapper would be a good rifle b/c nobody wants them and they're relatively inexpensive.

I am really after a .358 winchester, or if I had to, a .35 whelen. The .356 win is nice because it's a factory rimmed case (like a .358R) , and I can buy brass from Winchester. I thought about a .375, but I'd rather stick to .35 cal (pistol bullets for light loads).

[kootne]

Just a thought, look at what winchester did back in the day, 35 winchester was based on the 30/40 case head. Dies are available but not cheap, brass can be made from Hornaday .405, Jamison and bertram make it also.
kootne

[Chill Wills]

I have a Browing low wall hunter in .45 Colt and I love it. The fit and finish are absolutely beautiful. The cation looks like a tank. I was thinking that the trapper would be a good rifle b/c nobody wants them and they're relatively inexpensive.

I am really after a .358 winchester, or if I had to, a .35 whelen. The .356 win is nice because it's a factory rimmed case (like a .358R) , and I can buy brass from Winchester. I thought about a .375, but I'd rather stick to .35 cal (pistol bullets for light loads).

The problem encountered for most people is getting the 356 Win. brass. It is not widely available nor much called for.
Rare = expensive - unless you already have some or have some lined up. That is why the next cast head up in size, the 30-40 Krag, which is very common and available in non-Obummer years is a best case plan for most of us. sorry about the pun..... :mrgreen:

Maybe a B-78 rimless type extractor for the easy to come by 308/3006 case head is the way to go. Then you can have the 358 Winchester. ....which is a great cast bullet round and then so is the Whelen too for that mater.

The 35 Krag is a standard wildcat and would be about the same as the 358 Win for cast... an option for rimed actions if you can find a good price on a trapper model to re-barrel.

[pietro]

.


I'd just K.I.S.S. and send a Browning .30-06 to Jes ( www.35caliber.com (http://www.35caliber.com) ) and have him rebore the bbl to .358" (.35 Whelan) - about $225-$250.



.

[Tatume]

... An 1885 in .356 might be neat, as I'd only need one slug when they're that big. Is this possible, I assume that I would have to use a rimmed case for a winny/miroku 1885 or I could go rimless for the B-78.

The Winchester High Wall/Browning 1885 will handle rimless cases just fine. I have a Browning 1885 in 30-06 that I have thought about sending to JES to be rebored to 35 Whelen.

[williamwaco]

I vote for the .358 Winchester.

[.45Cole]

I really like just using the .3258 winchester for all the reasons that above, but I also want to have a rimmed case just because it's a bit of a nod to the 1885 in my mind. Plus, nobody has done it that I can think of. The .35 Krag is a good idea and I might pursue that if .356 doesn't pan out and I stay with a rimmed case. I figure that I'll prob buy 500 or so cases, enough to last a lifetime, before committing t the rifle. Ouch, I just looked at .356 brass :shock:, maybe the Krag case is the way to go

[Tatume]

I vote for the .358 Winchester.

Hi William,

I like the 358 Winchester too, and the OP could actually cut the chamber for 356 Winchester and shoot either. However, did Browning or Winchester ever offer the 1885/High Wall in 308 Winchester? If not, then a new barrel would be required.

Take care, Tom

[olafhardt]

Every time I have been in Cabelas in the past year they have had several 35 Whelen Handi's for chump change compared to what you are talking about spending.

[pietro]

.

All well & good - But IMHO, there's NO comparison of a Handi breal-open singe-shot, & it's birch stockwood, with a walnut-stocked Browning/Miroku falling-block single-shot, in looks, workmanship, strength & accuracy.



.

[olafhardt]

Well Pietro we all have our opinions. I think the Browning 22 Auto is the very slickest gun made. The humpback Auto is plain ugly. The BPS is one of if not the most beautiful shotguns ever made even out shining the European side by sides. The 12 gauge OU's are too ugly to own a trait they share with the SKS and AK 47. The 1911 corn sheller I give no more than a grunt but the Hipower is truly beautiful. How do you know a Browning 1885 is stronger than a Handi and more accurate? I don't know that. I do know that either will do what I want done. You guys pay the big money and I will take tthe cheapies.

[Chill Wills]

Life's too short to go out with ugly guns!

[oldred]

Olafhardt, I suppose if all you want is something that shoots then you may have a point but even if you fail to understand the fact is some folks want a bit more than that. The cheapest is not always the best choice depending on wants and needs, especially the wants part, and if someone wants a nice looking fine handling rifle instead of a plain utility grade gun then that may be their choice for the same reason they might choose a nice sedan for a car instead of a cheap compact. Both cars would get you where you want to go just the same as both guns will shoot just fine but the fact is getting there is sometimes half of the equation, if a person wants a Highwall and can afford it then they shouldn't settle for a Handi!

[Hickory]

The 358 Winchester is a great round.
The 444 Marlin cartridge will slide in and out of a 358 Winchester sizing die, that is basically a rimmed 358 Winchester. Mike Bellm used to rechamber small 35 caliber barrels up to that round.
I had a 15" Contender reworked to this cartridge, it's a great shooter and hits hard even from a short barrel.

[EDG]

We all have our opinions. If cash cost is your only criteria then no guns are cheaper than the cheapies.
If you think the BPS is so great looking I bet you have never fired one. Function is also a requirement and they are clumsy to reload compared to any other pump. I am a skeet shooter and I have shot a friends. Very unimpressive when compared to any other repeater on the skeet range.
For use in competitive shooting or even informal skeet no one uses a side by side on a regular basis unless it is someone out for grins with a .410.
Yeah the Highpower is nice looking - but it is only a 9mm. Did you ever shoot a Kimber 45 ACP? The 9mm HP that will out shoot a Kimber has never been built.
Everyone but you knows that a 1885 is about 4X stronger than the Handi. The Brownings are also very accurate but you will not get to know that if you only buy cheapies. The heavy barrel Browning 78s are very accurate as are the 1885 BPCR rifles.
Perhaps you should have read the 1963 or 64 American Rifleman review of the Topper in .22 Jet. Horrible accuracy.
Perhaps you should have bought the Topper that a friend of mine bought. It had rifling for the first 6 inches ahead of the chamber . Then the bore slowly opened to about 32 cal and the last 6 inches of the bore had no rifling at all.


Well Pietro we all have our opinions. I think the Browning 22 Auto is the very slickest gun made. The humpback Auto is plain ugly. The BPS is one of if not the most beautiful shotguns ever made even out shining the European side by sides. The 12 gauge OU's are too ugly to own a trait they share with the SKS and AK 47. The 1911 corn sheller I give no more than a grunt but the Hipower is truly beautiful. How do you know a Browning 1885 is stronger than a Handi and more accurate? I don't know that. I do know that either will do what I want done. You guys pay the big money and I will take tthe cheapies.

[olafhardt]

Well EDG (BTW does that stand Expensive Distinguished Guns) 63-64 was a long time ago. That's about Winchester made so many improvements. The push feed post 64 model 70's feed a lot better than the pre 64. The post 64 model 94 once a few bugs were worked out is superior to the pre 64. My model 1300 winchester was an all round better gun than my model 12. My son has a BPS which he loves and is death on squirrels. I think the bottom ejector pumps are great if you like pumps. I think competitive shooting has had some deleterious effects on just plain shooting. Some things I really don't like are:
Heavy barrels
Large capacity magazines
Scopes
Light triggers
Star Wars stocks
ETC
If I want to shoot a 45 I will use my son's Glock. How do you know that a 78 is 4X strong as a Handirifle? Lots of people have published good reviews of the Handirifle. As far as strength goes the only true way that I know to test that is to shoot a gun to destruction with increasing loads. P.O. Ackley did this with some suurprising results

[Don McDowell]

So I'd REALLY like to have a .356/.358/.35 whelen caliber someday. I thought about a m1/m1a in .35 or a 788. A 1885 in .356 might be neat, as I'd only need one slug when they're that big. Is this possible, I assume that I would have to use a rimmed case for a winny/miroku 1885 or I could go rimless for the B-78. The .356 has the same rim diameter as the 30-30 family, and it's a hare smaller than the 40-65 family. I would just have to find a barrel manufacture who would make a barrel (maybe half round?) for it.
Something to ponder, your thoughts?

Yes it is feasible. But all the 356 was intended to be was a throttled down 358 that would reliably cycle and fire in a model 94. So unless you just have to have that rimmed case why not just do the 358?

[oldred]

Well EDG (BTW does that stand Expensive Distinguished Guns) 63-64 was a long time ago. That's about Winchester made so many improvements. The push feed post 64 model 70's feed a lot better than the pre 64. The post 64 model 94 once a few bugs were worked out is superior to the pre 64. My model 1300 winchester was an all round better gun than my model 12. My son has a BPS which he loves and is death on squirrels. I think the bottom ejector pumps are great if you like pumps. I think competitive shooting has had some deleterious effects on just plain shooting. Some things I really don't like are:
Heavy barrels
Large capacity magazines
Scopes
Light triggers
Star Wars stocks
ETC
If I want to shoot a 45 I will use my son's Glock. How do you know that a 78 is 4X strong as a Handirifle? Lots of people have published good reviews of the Handirifle. As far as strength goes the only true way that I know to test that is to shoot a gun to destruction with increasing loads. P.O. Ackley did this with some suurprising results


You are still missing the point, the new Handies are really strong and there's no doubt about it, I have a friend that regularly shoots a 45/70 using Ruger no.1 load data as does lots of other people, and accuracy is at least acceptable but that's about it. There is just so much more to owning and shooting a high class rifle or shotgun than just throwing lead out of the darn thing and if that's over your head you will probably never understand so just shoot your guns and enjoy them, if it suits you then fine. The bottom line is that while maybe you can't quite appreciate the difference between a fine looking accurate and well handling firearm as opposed to the bottom of the barrel utility grades the fact is most folks can and to them it's WELL worth the difference, there's a heck of a lot more to it than just the money difference even with strength and accuracy being the (nearly!) same. The cheapest is not always the bestest!!!!!

[.45Cole]

Don-I didn't know that a 1885 could (easily?) be made to fire rimless cases. I know that the B78 does, but i was essentially looking for something along my Browning 1885 low wall in a good .35 caliber. Rimmed cases are a little nicer to have in a loop belt because they won't work their way out. After looking into .356 brass, I think I'll have to come up with another cartridge, maybe a .358.

I used cheapies and they work well, you don't worry about them and if you want to spray paint them pink, then do it. Repaint it camo next week. But after I drop for a nice lapped barrel, and the workmanship of a good chamber, I'm only out a little more on a good action. The nicer actions were made well, with a good design that can be easily modified.

[Don McDowell]

I've carried rimless bottle neck cartridge in a looped cartridge belt and never lost a one.
The B78 was/is nothing more than an 85 without the tang, and chambered in modern wonder cartridges. All one has to do is change the extractor ( see the new production rifles in 243,260 etc.)
If I were thinking of something in a lowall, I'ld be more apt to go with the 35 Winchester, or 35 Krag, something with a bit smaller case diameter, so as to add to the meat left in the threaded portion of the barrel.

[rking22]

The Browning low wall was chambered in 243 and 260( or was it 7-08???) any way , rimless "modern" rounds. I have played with this thought and came to decide a 35 Rem chamber with a lathe cut rim recess and use Krag brass to form, assuming I can trust my memory. I like rims in my single shots also. And I like really pretty wood on classic actions AND I like handi's . Just different reasons for the likes :) Efficiency is a strong attribute, and the rimmed 35 rem was for a rechambered handi I never got roundtuit on. I also have a browning 1885 in 30-06 ,28 inch taper oct barrel ,, pretty and shoots good. Just nice rifles.

[troyboy]

Neck up 307 brass for the 356. Have the chamber cut for 358/356 then the use your choice of brass.

[.45Cole]

I was also thinking about just getting a boat ton of .307 and then going about it that way. I would have the chamber cut to the necked up .307, as the new case will be a bit shorter. Or do the 35 Krag, but I think I might lose a little of the efficiency the .308 family of cases has. I would probably have to go with a bit of a faster powder in the .35 Krag than with a .358/.307 I assume. Most of this is in the finalize a dream, then start collecting materials phase.

Don-so it's not hard at all to convert a 1885 from handling rimmed cases to rimless cases? I see that Ballard only charges $50 for this in their modifications add-ons.

[Don McDowell]

Should just be a matter of installing the proper extractor after the barrel is chambered and headspaced.

[EDG]

Post 1964 is when Winchester nearly improved themselves out of business.
M94 - I do no like regardless of the era it was manufactured in. I had a .375 Big Bore (1981 model) that came from the factory with a crooked front sight and barrel. When I got that fixed Win put on another crooked barrel. But why are you talking about the M94, it not an el cheapo?
I had M1200 pump. It worked ok but no one would pick it over a model 12. Certainly no offered to trade me out of it. Again it is not a Handi either.
Shooting squirrels with a shotgun is not much to brag about. I like pumps but I shoot squirrels with a .22.
Bottom ejection is ok - that is not the problem. The bottom loading is what's is clumsy but if you have not shot one 50,000 times you might not understand it. The skeet shooting that I did falls into the realm of just plain shooting. I suspect you have never shot point and giggle skeet.
So you don't like ETC??? Does that mean everything else?
All those things you do not like indicate areas of the shooting sports where you probably have little experience.

How do I know the B78 is 4X stronger? How do you know it isn't?
Do you know any advanced mathematics? Do you know statics and strength of materials?
Do you know what Hook's law is or Young's Modulus is?
Do you understand that the longer the component under stress is the more it can stretch for the same amount of stress.
Do you understand that all steels have basically the same modulus of elasticity?
If you want the gun to be stronger make the load bearing components short and massive. The Browning (and Ruger #1) are short and massive. The breech end of the barrel and the receiver of the Handi are both long and relatively skinny. Under a heavy load they act like springs. You can analyze them using statics - the basic introductory course in engineering mechanics. Without examining the designs and understanding the engineering concepts you might not understand why a 3200 Remington is one of the strongest shotgun designs or why a Lee-Enfield is so springy.




Well EDG (BTW does that stand Expensive Distinguished Guns) 63-64 was a long time ago. That's about Winchester made so many improvements. The push feed post 64 model 70's feed a lot better than the pre 64. The post 64 model 94 once a few bugs were worked out is superior to the pre 64. My model 1300 winchester was an all round better gun than my model 12. My son has a BPS which he loves and is death on squirrels. I think the bottom ejector pumps are great if you like pumps. I think competitive shooting has had some deleterious effects on just plain shooting. Some things I really don't like are:
Heavy barrels
Large capacity magazines
Scopes
Light triggers
Star Wars stocks
ETC
If I want to shoot a 45 I will use my son's Glock. How do you know that a 78 is 4X strong as a Handirifle? Lots of people have published good reviews of the Handirifle. As far as strength goes the only true way that I know to test that is to shoot a gun to destruction with increasing loads. P.O. Ackley did this with some suurprising results

[skeettx]

My vote is for the 35 Winchester
http://www.chuckhawks.com/35Win.htm

or the 9x74R

Both fine cartirdges and rimmed
Mike

[olafhardt]

Well EDG, you are right there are many shooting sports I have never indulged in, never shot skeet or trap either. I also never played polo either. The profession of engineering includes some absolutely brilliant people and some of the dumbest essobees I ever met. I graduated with a degree in chemical engineering in 1972. For the next 30 years I worked with a jillion engineers: mechanical,electrical, civil, petroleum etc. Some were brilliant, some were dullards and a lot in between. I learned some "Tells" to help me tell them apart. When a guy starts throwing up his qualifications and a bunch of tech speak little red flags start rising in my mind. Thing is when a guy does all that I can not except his veracity in much of anything.

[.45Cole]

+1 Chem E!

[38-72]

I would go with a Win 405. Off the shelf ready made brass, bullets, dies and load data. Load it up or down, depending on how you want to use it.

[.45Cole]

Does anybody know of a good way to get my hands on a cheap action, preferably in the white. I know people here will kill me, but I was kinda in the making to hard chrome finish it. I have handled a Uberti that didn't cock the hammer when the lever was closed, as compared to my LW Browning.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Olaf,

did I really see you post that the post-64's fed better than the old Mauser 98 copy claw extractor on the OM's?
If you prefer them you are really in luck. You can almost always buy four or five of them for what an OM sells for these days. They were designed to out-cheap the 700 in every area.

Rich

[Don McDowell]

Cole, the best bet would be to get one of the new Winchesters and have it re barreled. They can be found for 800 or so more often than not. CSSharps gets over a grand just for the action in the white.

[Doc Highwall]

I have Browning's in both High-wall's and Low-wall's. The Low-walls were chambered in 22 Hornet, 223 Rem., 243 Win. and a non catalog 260 Rem., I have both the 223 and 260 Rem. The Traditional Hunter was chambered in 357mag., 44mag., and 45 Colt. and I have two of them in 357mag. and two in 22Lr by Winchester.

[williamwaco]

So I'd REALLY like to have a .356/.358/.35 whelen caliber someday. I thought about a m1/m1a in .35 or a 788. A 1885 in .356 might be neat, as I'd only need one slug when they're that big. Is this possible, I assume that I would have to use a rimmed case for a winny/miroku 1885 or I could go rimless for the B-78. The .356 has the same rim diameter as the 30-30 family, and it's a hare smaller than the 40-65 family. I would just have to find a barrel manufacture who would make a barrel (maybe half round?) for it.
Something to ponder, your thoughts?


Not so. It is available in several rimless cases.

http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/catalog/detail.asp?family=002C&mid=534112

[.45Cole]

I have a 1885 Browning low wall in .45 colt. I see that winny makes a high wall hunter with a 28" octagon bbl in 30-06. That should be enough to rebore the barrel and rechamber to .35 something. I have some time on the project, so I might call up winchester and see when the next .356 brass production is slated. I'd really like a .356!

I saw the cssharps actions, $1100+ :holysheep. The winnys at least have wood, and maybe an octagon barrel that can be perhaps thrown on a m70 (just a thought, not looked into).

[olafhardt]

Olaf,

did I really see you post that the post-64's fed better than the old Mauser 98 copy claw extractor on the OM's?
If you prefer them you are really in luck. You can almost always buy four or five of them for what an OM sells for these days. They were designed to out-cheap the 700 in every area.

Rich
Rich, I actually prefer the Remington model 78, an economy version of the 700 ADL. The 78 has an elegant hardwood (birch?) stock and the wonderful blind magazine which does not drop cartridges when I am spotlighting deer. The old mausers I have seen have managed to jam if a shell is dropped in and the bolt is closed. Then they dropped their sheels all over the ground.

[Don McDowell]

That's 788 not 78...

[olafhardt]

No, it is a 78 seventy eight. It is an econo version of the 700 ADL. I got mine at Wally World. Remington made and sold them in the late 80's.

[olafhardt]

45 Cole, Frank Haas wrote several books on single shots and building your own single shots. I fool around with Winchester 94's which are falling block repeaters ( sorta). I have often wondered if a 94 could be turned into a decent single shot with some files and a hack saw etc. I just bought a pre safety post 64 94 from a pawn shop for $245.

[Doc Highwall]

Ithaca model 49 lever action single shot 22Lr.

[.45Cole]

I really like the length and weight of the 1885. I'm 6'6" and I have a long neck, so I like larger guns. Plus, I don't mind spending 900-1500 on the entire project, so I might as well go for something good.

[BAGTIC]

My M94 Big Bores will handle .307 and .356 loaded in rimless cases and long as the COL is kept correct.


My M94 Big Bores will handle rimless .308 and .358 cases.

[.45Cole]

That's what I'm thinking if I do a .356 - if i get into a bind, I could use .358's if the rifle headspaces on the shoulder. I called Winchester and they will fill all backorders sometime in March, so I'll prob order 400 some pieces. Trade a few down the road.