Getting Started

[Matt Muir]

Hello all, I have some questions about getting started with this 45 70 stuff (reloading). I am going to load a batch this week,gun comming soon, and don't want to spin my wheels. The books I ordered have not arrived yet so I am going off this forum. I will load some smokeless and some bp to see how the gun likes the loads.

I ordered some cast bullets from Cabelas, 405 gr Montanna cast and 500gr Cabelas brand. I will try to see what weight my gun likes and then move on to melting my own.

1st. do I need any wad or lube patch for smokeless? I did order .30 veggie patches as well.

BP- powder wad bullet in that order?

And has any one used TC Bore Butter as a lube? I have tons of that stuff and it worked great in the ML.

Thanks,Matt.

[JSnover]

I was taught No Wads with Smokeless. Filler if you want, but no wads.

[Matt Muir]

That's what I thought, something about the air space and the gun thinking there are two bullets. I was really interested in the bp loads. That seems like a black art from what I read.

[405]

Perzactly!
There is another thread entitled "Restraint" should be titled childish rant. You ask very familiar questions to the old hats here (I'm not one of them) but they are very valid questions to be certain. There has been a tendancy I've noticed to presume everyone knows what is meant when throwing acronyms and insider slang around. I've also noticed some lack of articulation when crossing back and forth between smokeless and blackpowder load discussion. Every single one here whether loading and shooting for 50 years or for only a month.... had to start with limited knowledge. The only dumb question is one not asked.

The best books for all around resources for just starting out are the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, the current Lyman Reloading Handbook and the Lyman Black Powder Handbook, 2nd Edition.

The .030 fiber wad (or felt or cork or .060 fiber) is usually used as a "hard" wad on top of the blackpowder with the bullet seated on top of the wad with a small amount of compression added to the whole column. While a wad in blackpowder cartridge does take up some space and reduce by a little the amount of blackpowder that is loaded it serves to separate the bullet from the powder. That by itself will help protect the base of the bullet.... better accuracy. In some types of blackpowder loads a grease cookie is added to the column to keep fouling soft for strings of shots. In that case a wad is usually put on top of the powder then a grease cookie is on top of that followed by another wad and finally the bullet.... again light compression is applied. In that case the over powder wad keeps the grease cookie separate from the powder.

A filler, usually dacron fiber sheeting cut into small squares, is used for SOME smokeless loads. Its purpose is to keep the usually smaller cast bullet powder charge back against the primer. That can aid in more uniform internal ballistics, lower deviations in pressure and sometimes increased accuracy. The poly (dacron) fiber filler is kept loose and to a minimum of weight. It can also help protect the base of a plain base cast bullet- a similar function to the wad in the blackpowder load. A note: the addition of the filler like dacron usually increases pressure so the suggested start loads for filler as listed in the manuals is a must. The Lyman reference manuals specifies the use of filler and velocities and/or pressures associated with the filler loads as noted. Caution and understanding of the internal ballistics issues is a must with use of fillers.

Depending upon your level of acceptable accuracy.... in the future you may want to try a cast bullet in the 300-385 gr. range that has a gas check. In a couple of my 45-70s those weights with gas checks are by far the most accurate.

The TC Bore Butter along other "2000" type lubes are very good but not stiff enough for most smokeless cast bullet lube groove applications- it must be stiffened quite a bit by mixing with beeswax.

It also makes an excellent grease cookie in the blackpowder cartridge loads if melted and mixed with some beewax to slightly stiffen it. Otherwise in warm weather it tends to leak back into the powder and contaminate it.

Hope your 45-70 shoots well!

[Don McDowell]

Matt nothing in the case with smokeless except the bullet.

You'll want to use the fiber wad under the bullet, and over the top of 68 grs of Goex cartridge with the 500 gr bullets and 70 grs with the 405 gr.
If you haven't bought dies yet, I recommend the Lyman dies, or at least order the M die from lyman to replace the expanding die with what ever set you get.
The M die will do a good job of compressing the powder and wad , as well as rounding up the case neck and flaring.

Bore butter will work(not real well) for a bullet lube with black, but will squish out and contaminate smokeless .

The Cabelas' brand bullet will be lubed with Sagebrush Alox, a very fine lube for use with smokeless of black. Don't have a clue as to what the Montana bullets will have on them.

Matt almost forgot, you can go to www.montanabulletworks.com and find a rather large selection of various bullet styles to try before deciding on what mold to buy first.

[Yance]

Hi Matt;

Welcome to "The Dark Side".

First off, what rifle are you going to be using?

I tried hard bullets and smokeless powder with two different Pedersoli Sharps rifles, a .45-70 and a .45-90 with results ranging from bad to absysemal. Even loads that were supposed to be "Tried and true" with AA's 5744.

Things began to come together when I started using Goex powder, both FFg and their Cartridge grade, and simple lead/tin alloy bullets.

I load 70 gr by weight into fired, unsized cases. Depending on the rifle's throat I use from .230" to .400" compression with the old Ideal 457125 Gov't RN bullet. Because of the length of the throat on my Trapdoor I have to use .400" compression.

If you aren't using Lee dies order the Lee die body, .458 expander and .45 Rifle compression plug from Track of the Wolf. A few $$ spent will save LOTS of frustration. Well under $20.00.

Haven't tried any overpowder wads yet and since I use a blowtube between shots haven't had to try any grease cookies.



Hello all, I have some questions about getting started with this 45 70 stuff (reloading). I am going to load a batch this week,gun comming soon, and don't want to spin my wheels. The books I ordered have not arrived yet so I am going off this forum. I will load some smokeless and some bp to see how the gun likes the loads.

I ordered some cast bullets from Cabelas, 405 gr Montanna cast and 500gr Cabelas brand. I will try to see what weight my gun likes and then move on to melting my own.[/QUOTE]

Those bullets will more than likely be "hard cast" and lubed with a hard lube suitable for smokeless powder. You'll probably have "hard" fouling and some leading with the hard cast bullets.


[/QUOTE]1st. do I need any wad or lube patch for smokeless? I did order .30 veggie patches as well.[/QUOTE]

No wads or filler with "normal" smokeless loads. Even Lyman has removed the filler suggestions from their #48 manual. I've tried loads both ways and neither the target or chronograph can tell the difference.


[/QUOTE]BP- powder wad bullet in that order?[/QUOTE]

Yep. Since you already have the wads you might as well try them. I'll try some later in the season and see if it improves my groups. You might try a few each way and see if your rifle does better/worse with either combo.


[/QUOTE]And has any one used TC Bore Butter as a lube? I have tons of that stuff and it worked great in the ML.[/QUOTE]

I've settled on a mix of 2 parts clean beeswax/1 part TC Bore Butter. One tube BB (5 oz) and 10 oz beeswax makes close to a pound of lube. Just remelt and pour into you sizer/luber. Good lube plus blowtube keeps fouling soft and managable. my Sharps cleans up now with two wet patches alternated with two dry patches. A couple more passes with a dry patch then a Bore Butter patch several passes to finish the job and be ready for the next time.

Thanks,Matt.[/QUOTE]

Have fun and make LOTS of gray/white smoke

[Matt Muir]

Great information fellas. I cant wait to get started. Going to make a drop tube today (old alum arrows) and drill some case holding blocks. The brass I was sble to find ,WW is pretty dinged up around the mouth 9new) so that will get me used to the new RCBS dies.

I will plow through all the manuals I have and work up some loads,just need to find AA powder now, no on earound here sell it.

Thanks, Matt

[405]

Quote
"No wads or filler with "normal" smokeless loads. Even Lyman has removed the filler suggestions from their #48 manual. I've tried loads both ways and neither the target or chronograph can tell the difference"

Well, the Lyman Reloading Handbook 48th Edition is primarily designed as an all around Jacketed + Cast bullet, smokeless load manual. It does not have the more specialized cast bullet data. The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 3rd Edition.... the latest "Cast Bullet" edition by the way.... shows all manner of specialized cast bullet smokelesss loads along with some blackpowder cartridge data. It also addresses the "smokeless filler" issue and does list smokeless loads using dacron filler in select cartridges.... including the 45-70. The Lyman Black Powder Handbook 2nd Edition has both extensive frontstuffer data and a whole section dedicated to black powder cartridge.

Quote
"I ordered some cast bullets from Cabelas, 405 gr Montanna cast and 500gr Cabelas brand. I will try to see what weight my gun likes and then move on to melting my own."

There are at least two "Montana" bullet companies. Montana Bullet Works casts very good bullets usually for higher vel smokeless loadings and uses a regular type stiffer lube. Montana Precision Swaging casts quite a few of the softer black powder cartridge type bullets and usually lubes with the easy to ID, softer, light colored SPG lube.