How are lever guns perceived through out the world?

[762 shooter]

I was wondering where lever guns stack up against such satanic firearms such as the semi auto rifle.

Let's say a semi auto 20 round mag 7.62 battle rifle is the most dangerous light weapon available to us unwashed masses, scores a 10 on the evil scale.

Just for the sake of argument let's make a 22 LR single shot rifle a 1.

I was wondering how other governments classify the lever.

762

[dragon813gt]

Levers were the original "assault rifle". Only technology has changed this perception. They are considered antiquated by modern standards. Tell that to the all the deer that have fallen to them over the years ;)

[dilly]

There are a surprising number of people who think of themselves as pro gun that like lever actions and bolt actions but think those "assault rifles" are bad.

Divide and conquer I guess.

[pietro]

.

Many equate them with the American Cowboy & the "Wild West".


.

[PS Paul]

Make a damn fine defense rifle for close and quick, in my estimation.

[flyingmonkey35]

Lever action = cowboy's.

Let's keep that misconception to ourselves. [emoji12]

To use your scale of scary ness looking to the public.

I'd put them at a 2

Due to the ooh and ahh factor the good looking ones employ

I

[leveraction 45 colt]

I love leveraction's!! and are the best today!!!

[TXGunNut]

Hard to imagine anyone getting upset or nervous at the sight of a nice levergun.

[Bullshop]

A little Marlin 94 in 44 mag may look all cute and innocent but with 11 rounds of 300+gn boolits doing 1700 fps MV a very formidable force.
Anyone remember Chuck Conners in the show, "The Rifleman" ? He could work that little 92 mighty fast. It may not load as fast as a semi with a clip but he could empty it about as quick.

[Garyshome]

Mystical....I always wanted one ...along with a wheel gun.

[Bzcraig]

Mystical....I always wanted one ...along with a wheel gun.

Time to save those recyclables.

[photomicftn]

The levergun is a quintessential American rifle design.

Flat, light, powerful enough for it's intended purposes, quick to the shoulder, handy in almost any situation, perfect to pack almost anywhere, and reliable as hell.

The cartridges chambered in the levergun are legion, not always the most powerful, or most accurate, but are always enduring. .45-70, .30-30, .32-20 ;-). And my favorite, the Winchester M71 .348 WCF.

Pack a good sixgun along and you're as well armed for anything as anyone in the last century or so, except for war.

[LtFrankDrebbin]

Lever action on a scale of 1-10....OK

10/10 for fun
10/10 on the cool factor
10/10 in historical value
10/10 for practical use

so called evil scale from governments?.....Who cares!

[dikman]

The levergun is a quintessential American rifle design.

Probably a pretty accurate statement. But what about the 44-40, arguably the quintessential load.

Some years back, when a certain Prime Minister (who doesn't like guns) inflicted our so-called National Firearms Act upon us, many types were banned - autoloaders, and pump-action, for example, and magazines were generally restricted to 5 rounds unless you held a special licence. Strangely enough, lever guns, with full tube capacity, weren't included. A bit bizarre when you think about it, as they are pretty rapid-fire guns, fairly light and quick to use.

I'm guessing that no-one took them seriously, thinking they were old, antiquated wild west guns.

Shows how little "they" know.

[762 shooter]

Okay. So Australia's restrictive gun grab missed levers. What about Canada, Europe, NZ and such? Oh, I forgot California.Did any levers make Cali's no-no list?

762

[JSnover]

It may not load as fast as a semi with a clip but he could empty it about as quick.
That's the only real problem with the tactical lever action.

[dikman]

"tactical lever action" [smilie=l:. Careful, or someone will paint them black and add a picatinny rail!

[JSnover]

"tactical lever action" [smilie=l:. Careful, or someone will paint them black and add a picatinny rail!
You know it! http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ti-cVV7YNfs
But it's still slow to reload :(

[HangFireW8]

Evilness is determined soley by the holder. Any magazine repeater will be next on the ban list after semi's are banned.

Levers are at a disadvantage when shooting prone. I prefer them for hunting.

[dnepr]

Okay. So Australia's restrictive gun grab missed levers. What about Canada, Europe, NZ and such? Oh, I forgot California.Did any levers make Cali's no-no list?

762
Here in Canada they are relaxed about levers , even the short ranch hand / mares leg type Are considered non restricted ( non restricted is hunting rifles and shotguns ect) we can even put a regular rifle stock on one , if you do that in the states you end up with a SBR and need paperwork.

[Bullshop]

I think it quite interesting to look at the evolution of the law enforcement hand gun round to where we are today with the 40 S&W.
Now look back almost a century and a half and compare the ballistics of the 40 S&W to that of the 38/40 and you see that it took nearly 150 years to come full circle. This to the point that my favorite 38/40 boolit mold has also become my favorite 40 S&W design.

[Bzcraig]

Okay. So Australia's restrictive gun grab missed levers. What about Canada, Europe, NZ and such? Oh, I forgot California.Did any levers make Cali's no-no list?

762


California restricts handguns but long guns are all good save the barrel and overall length requirements.

[dikman]

You know it! http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ti-cVV7YNfs
But it's still slow to reload :(

Son-of-a-gun!

[photomicftn]

I agree with you about the .44-40, since it was the original 1873 Winchester chambering, but I believe that leverguns only truly came into their own when they were chambered for rifle cartridges, however usefully the initial pistol caliber offerings served.


Probably a pretty accurate statement. But what about the 44-40, arguably the quintessential load.

Some years back, when a certain Prime Minister (who doesn't like guns) inflicted our so-called National Firearms Act upon us, many types were banned - autoloaders, and pump-action, for example, and magazines were generally restricted to 5 rounds unless you held a special licence. Strangely enough, lever guns, with full tube capacity, weren't included. A bit bizarre when you think about it, as they are pretty rapid-fire guns, fairly light and quick to use.

I'm guessing that no-one took them seriously, thinking they were old, antiquated wild west guns.

Shows how little "they" know.

[OuchHot!]

I've read about old time French, American, British solo sailors from the early 1900's through today. The .30-30 carbine featured in their kit as defensive weapons. Jean Gau was at one time approached by a patrol boat (1960's) that asked if he was armed and when he responded in the affirmative (M94 .30-30) was told to load it and not hesitate to use it as he was in bad waters. Jeff Cooper thought highly of the lever carbine as an urban assault weapon for overly legislated areas. It might be urban legend, but Winchester was trying to sell a desert chieftain some m94's for tribal combat. The chief threw the rifle (action open) onto a blanket full of sand and demonstrated how the action would tie up from the sand and said his men were not equipped to keep them functional. Winchester demurely turned aside and urinated into the action and fired it.

[helice]

Over the years I have been collecting a few lever guns for the possibilities of urban social situations. We have historically had a real problem here in CA with the Stoner rifles and I have not been willing to irk my politically correct neighbors. I live in the SF Bay area and it seems to be a criminal offense to not wear an Obama sticker on your electric car so there are a lot of the politically correct close by. (No - My Expedition does not wear an Obama sticker.) A nice M-92 in a modern pistol ctg. is my answer to those who attribute evil personality to inanimates objects like firearms.

[JSnover]

Jeff Cooper thought highly of the lever carbine as an urban assault weapon for overly legislated areas.
Yup. I think the pistol-caliber carbines were "Kansas City Specials" and 30-30s were "Brooklyn Specials."

[Scharfschuetze]

I used a Savage 99 in 22 Savage Hi-Power on a hunting trip in Australia many years ago, but other than that, I've not seen a lever action anywhere else that I've traveled outside of North America. Lots of Enfields, Mausers, Galils, the usual Soviet weapons, H&Ks and French rifles but no lever guns. Other than the odd use by Turkey and Russia early in the 20th Century, they seem to be a North American genre even though they are made in several countries for the North American market.

[Combat Diver]

I've lived in Germany for 6 years and never saw a German on the range with one, however Frankoia (upscale sporting goods) in Munich used to have racks of lever guns so some were buying them. No magazine limit on them unlike semi autos which have to have a 2 round limit. Never encountered them out in the field of Africa, Haiti, Europe, Middle East or SW Asia. I do like my John Browning designed 86',92', 94' and 95's, and along with my Marlin 94' and 95's. :mrgreen:

CD

[220]

Okay. So Australia's restrictive gun grab missed levers. What about Canada, Europe, NZ and such? Oh, I forgot California.Did any levers make Cali's no-no list?

762

Cant say there was any sound reasoning behind our Aus Laws.
Split firearms in to 4 categories
Category A, bolt, lever and pump action rimfires and break action shotguns
Category B, bolt, lever and pump action centrefire rifles
Category C, Semi Auto rimfires and pump and semi auto shotguns up to 5 shots
Category D, Semi Auto Centrefires larger mag capacity cat C

Cat A&B are all most people can own, Cat C is limited to farmers and Cat D to professional shooters.
So while a regular shooter cant own a 10 shot ruger 10/22 they can own a 10 shot bolt action 50BMG or probably the greatest battle rifle in history a SMLE. While they can own a 10 shot pump action 223 or 308 they cant own a 5 shot pump action 12ga.
Like I said no sound reasoning behind any of it.
Also any firearm that duplicates the appearance of a military firearm regardless of the action is prohibited so if it looks like a black gun you cant have it.

[220]

LA has always been reasonably popular in Aus but the 96 gun laws have made them even more so, 45/70 would be by far the most popular bigbore in Aus, 30/30 is hugely popular wouldn't be to many Aus shooters that haven't owned or used one at some stage.
All the current LA are readly available Marlin, Win, Browning, Chiappa, Rossi, Mossberg, Henry, plenty of second hand ones getting about as well. Lots of older Savage 99s, even see the odd sako finwolf and win88 on the classified sites also a surprising number of pre 1900 LA about.

[nekshot]

isn't mossberg trying to change their image to tactical?

[IDSS]

"tactical lever action" [smilie=l:. Careful, or someone will paint them black and add a picatinny rail!


isn't mossberg trying to change their image to tactical?

http://www.mossberg.com/product/rifles-lever-action-centerfire-mossberg-464-spx/41026

Mossberg already went and did it.

I think my '92 (Appalachian Assault Rifle) is just fine...

[dikman]

I'm waiting for someone to come out with a black "tactical" muzzleloader!:lol:

[dragon813gt]

I'm waiting for someone to come out with a black "tactical" muzzleloader!:lol:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/01/foghorn/new-from-cmmg-muzzleloading-ar-15/

[Lead Fred]

I was wondering where lever guns stack up against such satanic firearms such as the semi auto rifle.


According to the libtards down under "One bullet is too much"
Diane Finestein says : "Mr & Mrs America, turn in all your guns"

My 20 cal Silver Streak air rifle is illegal in some places

[Lead Fred]

I'm waiting for someone to come out with a black "tactical" muzzleloader!:lol:

117851

[bob208]

good thing the gun banners don't read history. the most popular rifle of the mexican revolution the winchester 92 and 94. with more then a few 73's. in fact 66 muskets were bought and used by some mexican states. i have seen some with the mexican property mark.

the turks truned back a russian assult using winchester 66's

winchester made 66, 73 and 95 muskets for army use. the 95 was the most sucessful. they even made some 94's for trials. it lost out to the krag.

now you say a leaver gun and it is thought of the next step after the black-powder musket.

[quilbilly]

I noticed that two of my favorite TV shows Longmire and Vegas (the one that featured early 1960's Las Vegas) that were cancelled because the viewers were too old. Both featured sheriffs that used lever guns in a modern setting. Is there a hidden meaning there?

[TXGunNut]

Wasn't that long ago many Texas DPS patrol cars had a 94 in the trunk. Many troopers grudgingly gave them up when .223's were issued. When my dept decided to adopt patrol rifles I lobbied hard for the 94 in 30-30.

[GhostHawk]

IMO a person who has shot and carried a lever action has the potential to shoot just as fast as a Semi Auto.


Being similar to a pump shotgun, it may not be quite as fast but tend to be just as accurate if not more so.
I knew a guy who had a nice lever in .243 with variable scope that could shoot rings around my Remington Bolt.
He was just as fast to acquire a target, and had a faster follow up shot.

In fact I probably rate it higher than most Semi Auto's on the danger scale.
I've seen a LOT of young idiots with a AR that couldn't hit a 5 gallon bucket at 50 yards.

Most of the guys that I've known would be very upset if they couldn't put ALL of their rounds into a peach can at 100 yards with a lever gun.

If it was ME they were shooting at, I'd take out the guy with the Lever action first.

As to perception, the lever gun seems to "hide" behind the old cowboy image.
Most people would not see it as much of a threat as the modern Semi.

I guess that makes me the odd man out for seeing it as more.

[FergusonTO35]

If I had to kill something I would take a .30 WCF lever over a .223 auto any day. A soft nose 170 grain does way more damage than anything .22 caliber. A hicap auto is good for pouring alot of rounds in the general direction of the target but unless you are fighting a war that is a really bad idea. Otherwise the levergun gives up nothing whatsoever.

Personally I think the current trend of M16's in patrol cars (usually freebies from DoD) is not good. There are very, very few situations I can think of where a cop should rapid fire a 30 round magazine at a suspect, even when returning fire. The likelihood of a non-suspect person getting hurt or killed is just too high, especially in a crowded urban setting. Look at how many bystanders and unarmed suspects have been shot multiple times by the NYPD over the years. A .30 WCF lever action or .308 bolt action with softnose bullets is just about ideal for a patrolman's long gun. If a situation really calls for military level firepower it ought to be done by special units who receive alot more training than average.

[OuchHot!]

I get a good laugh at the folk who seem to extol the "power" of the 7.62X39/5.56 in military configuration and depreciate the .30-30 as a deer cartridge. I regard the .30-30 very highly in stopping power compared to 5.56 and 7.62X39 at distances that I am legally allowed to consider defensive.

[seaboltm]

Marlin missed the boat on the tactical lever action. Should have made it in 357 Magnum.

[Bullshop Junior]

Marlin missed the boat on the tactical lever action. Should have made it in 357 Magnum.

That tactical lever gun stuff is a disgrace to all lever guns, and I would be ashamed to own one.

[Airborne Falcon]

Levers were the original "assault rifle".

Not sure from where you derive that conclusion. The use of the Henry in the Civil War I guess? If so, it was surely a short-lived misnomer - thankfully. And, even then, there were complaints from commanders about wasted ammo - the old "spray and pray" complaint.

Leverguns, imho, are still viewed as original Americana, with an old wild west fondness perpetrated mostly by Hollywood and Spaghetti Westerns and their utilitarian design and versatility. The long range accuracy and deadliness of the levergun has been overblown by both lore and Hollywood over the decades ... although modern leverguns with modern propellants are worthy of some of the long range accuracy accolades we think of when we see westerns where dry gulchers killed from elevated positions 100s of yards from their targets.

"Repeaters," which many associate with leverguns, was actually a term used for pump rifles and shotguns when they first hit the scene and they were typically more accurate and fire faster than leverguns ... but, as with leverguns, they required full-stroking in order to function properly and thus lended themselves to short-stroking and stove-piping in stressful situations ... so most military people shied away from them for use in combat. Not to mention they were both difficult to operate from a prone position.

SASS and other Cowboy Action Shooting competitions have led to increased popularity of the levergun in the minds of most moderately knowledgeable Americans, et al., shooters. And more importantly, leverguns have yet to appear in any mass shooting on the main stream media propaganda networks ... so the American public tends to believe they are less lethal and/or difficult for the pathological anti-social nut jobs to operate and/or conceal.

I own a safe full of leverguns, all Marlins these days, and the main advantage I have always held near and dear to my heart with most of my leverguns is the ability to pair them with revolvers, (and sometimes semiauto handguns), while still maintaining the one caliber, one cartridge advantage. I'd never feel undergunned, anywhere in North America (wilderness), carrying my 1894P and Ruger Redhawk in 44 Mag.

My favorite pairing for riding my back forty is probably my 1894 CB LTD and a S&W 686 both in 357 Mag ... it's a do-all pairing for me down here in the South where no big cats or brownies lurk, and it boils down to charm I think. When a neighbor sees me, on my horse, coming riding-up the dirt road ... they usually call for me to come over and talk rather than run for cover.

http://i736.photobucket.com/albums/xx7/gallopazzesco/gunstuff/utf-8BSU1HMDAwMTYtMjAxMDA1MDMtMTYwN.jpg

I want to add something else if I may ... "tactical levergun" is an abomination. I despise reading that term yet, for some reason, I am seeing it used more and more on the Internet these days among the youngsters. I do not understand why but I wish they would stop before they ruin a good thing.

[dikman]

The word "tactical" is simply being used as a means of selling something - I mean, what on earth is a "tactical knife"? :killingpc
To the greater ignorant masses I'm sure if they see "tactical" attached to something it straight away elevates it to the "must have" category.

And I agree, attaching it to a lever gun is an abomination, a nice lever gun is quite an elegant design (sort of like the Kentucky longrifle, in a way).

[Airborne Falcon]

IMO a person who has shot and carried a lever action has the potential to shoot just as fast as a Semi Auto.
Being similar to a pump shotgun, it may not be quite as fast but tend to be just as accurate if not more so.

Ummmmmm ... no, no and no.


If I had to kill something I would take a .30 WCF lever over a .223 auto any day. A soft nose 170 grain does way more damage than anything .22 caliber. A hicap auto is good for pouring alot of rounds in the general direction of the target but unless you are fighting a war that is a really bad idea. Otherwise the levergun gives up nothing whatsoever.

Ummmmmmm ... you're comparing apples to oranges in just about every sentence. I'm the biggest levergun fan alive, or close to it, but no, no levergun I own compares to my SIG 716 or any of my M1As or even one of my bolties when it comes to accuracy, punch, ergonomics. etc.


The word "tactical" is simply being used as a means of selling something - I mean, what on earth is a "tactical knife"?

http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/filepicker%2FeeZhmj3QXOZbWzrYiwPH_rambo_knife.jpg

[220]

The word "tactical" is simply being used as a means of selling something - I mean, what on earth is a "tactical knife"? :killingpc

I think the term your looking for is tacticool

[runfiverun]

Airborne I think maybe you need a 307 or a 348 lever gun then.
or maybe a 308/338 marlin, or possibly a browning in 358 win, or win model 88 in 284 win perhaps might be more your idea of punch?
you could always get a win 95 in 30-06/or x54r if you really need to reach out there like your 308 does.

if you think a lever gun has no potential for being accurate you need to read up on free floating a barrel and tuning a mag tube.

[Lead Fred]

That tactical lever gun stuff is a disgrace to all lever guns, and I would be ashamed to own one.

+1

Tacticool, is really tactiFool

[Bullshop]

Airborne I think maybe you need a 307 or a 348 lever gun then.
or maybe a 308/338 marlin, or possibly a browning in 358 win, or win model 88 in 284 win perhaps might be more your idea of punch?
you could always get a win 95 in 30-06/or x54r if you really need to reach out there like your 308 does.

if you think a lever gun has no potential for being accurate you need to read up on free floating a barrel and tuning a mag tube.
You forgot to mention the Browning long action BLR in 7mm Rem mag, 300 Win mag, and 338 Win mag for additional range and punch.

[JSnover]

Eh... I'm not buying the Tacticool Levergun. It's such an ugly contraption and (IMO) only a marginal improvement over traditional blued steel and stained walnut.
I love my levers, but for defensive/SHTF scenarios they work best at short to medium range when things are happening a bit too quickly for me to stick around (that whole slow-to-reload thing).
My FAL is at least as accurate, more powerful, faster, and the 20 round mags are a dream compared to stuffing ammo through a loading gate.

[dikman]

Sorry, Airborne Falcon, but that is a poor choice to use as an example. When Jimmy Lile created the first Rambo knife it was considered a "survival" knife, in fact it arguably started a trend. (I don't believe that the word "tactical" was in common usage back then, regarding weapons - certainly not knives).

[pmer]

My 1895 Marlin 45-70 seems to have a bit of controled round feeding (now that I think about it). After the lifter brings up the round it deosn't fall out to easy. You can also reload levers while they are on your shoulder and ready to fire too. So I heard anyways.

[JFE]

I believe there were more original 92's sold in Australia than anywhere else in the world. They were certainly very popular amongst miners, stockmen and farmers and came in cartridges well suited to the game we had available back then.

A few dealers here have made quite a bit of money gathering and shipping 92's back to the USA. At an auction a few years ago one US buyer bought over 100 rifles to ship back home and most of these were rare 92 variants. A lot of those old guns saw hard use and a lot of the ones for sale are clunkers or are no longer original. At one stage rifles were picked up and refurbished in large numbers for re-sale. This was in the post WWII era. 32/20, 25/20 and 218 Bee were pretty popular here.

These days the old 30/30 is still king in levergun calibers but levers in 45/70 and 44 mag are also quite popular.

[dikman]

Now there's a thought..... maybe I should sell my Win 92, 1911 vintage, button mag in the US and make a big bag of money :grin:.

[fouronesix]

As to the OP- how they are perceived around the world as compared to how those who understand them are likely two different things. Heck, with our ever growing cosmo-metro society here in the US no telling what percentage of the citizenry understands the difference from one gun to another. I'll guarantee in some parts of the world the average person would view them as some sort of novelty and maybe recognize them only from old western movies they might have seen. How the individual governments/bureaucrats view them would likewise be all "over the map". One thing for certain is in many parts of the world, including "third world" regions, most all would know what an AK is and/or even how to use it.

[bugkiller]

Rossi 92 was cute at the range. 10 quick rounds in an 8" plate later, it was cool. :Fire:

[fatnhappy]

You know it! http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ti-cVV7YNfs
But it's still slow to reload :(

No offense, but that's uglier than Cinderella's step sisters

[Speedo66]

In response to "levers being the first assault weapons" Airborn Falcon said..."Not sure from where you derive that conclusion. The use of the Henry in the Civil War I guess? If so, it was surely a short-lived misnomer - thankfully. And, even then, there were complaints from commanders about wasted ammo - the old "spray and pray" complaint.

The long range accuracy and deadliness of the levergun has been overblown by both lore and Hollywood over the decades..."

Tell that to Custer and his men. They got their butts kicked by warriors carrying pistol caliber lever actions, while the army troops had single shot .45-70's. I think the Indians considered it an assault weapon. I would think Custer thought them deadly.

[JSnover]

The Indians may call it whatever they want, it wasn't the only time the Mighty Springfield Trap Door was put to shame by a magazine-fed weapon. And it only proved one thing: Single-shot rifles are insufficient for front line soldiers if anything else is available.

[Scharfschuetze]

Getting a bit off topic, but here's my take on the controversy. Not PC perhaps, but it's well supported by archaeological evidence from the Little Big Horn and the history of the Frontier Army of the 1860s and 1870s.

Keep in mind that the 7th Cavalry as well as most US Army units were virtually untrained in marksmanship during the 1870s. Soldiers were often only authorized 20 some rounds a year for practice and most didn't even get that. General Nelson Miles developed the annual rifle training requirements of the Army following the the Indian Campaign of 1876 and his successes with Trapdoors against the same Indian tribes that were at the Little Big Horn as the Army tracked down the recalcitrant Indians following the Little Big Horn Battle.

Indians, as far as major battles go, never broke an infantry line and treated the "Long Tom" armed infantry with a great deal of respect when engaging them. Cavalry lost 25% of their effective firepower in an engagement as 1 out of 4 troopers had to hold the horses. Couple that with a poorly trained (many recruits in the ranks and a high desertion rate) 7th Cavalry Regiment and the result for Custer's battalion of the 7th was to some extent predictable. "Custer's Luck" as it was called just didn't hold up to a riled up and superior force. Also keep in mind that half of the 7th Cavalry held out for a day and a half under Captain Benteen and Major Reno against overwhelming odds a few miles south where Custer met his fate. They used their Trapdoors most effectively and held the Cheyennes and the Sioux at bay until the Indians departed southward with the threat of Colonel Gibbon's approach to the battlefield from the north.

In the early 90s, member Larry Gibson and I were assigned to assist with a battlefield study of the Little Big Horn by our superior headquarters. Part of the study was the comparison of the Trapdoor rifle and the Henry rifle. In Central Washington, in open terrain, we proved pretty conclusively that in the hands of trained troops, the Trapdoor was the superior weapon both at range and in sustained fire. The soldiers using the Henry rifles in the study were far better than average shots, but could not keep up with the Trapdoor in all but their first magazine and then only at the shorter ranges.

There are lots of reasons bandied about as to why the Custer's battalion of the 7th was destroyed and many like to blame the weapons used or the Bennet primed copper 45/55/405 cartridges, but in reality, the 7th was not in any cohesive defensive posture and most likely in an offensive posture until being overwhelmed in the final moments with troops of about 40 men each spread across too many acres to effectively support each other. Overlooked too is the effect of indirect arrow fire which was quite galling and effective against the troopers on Last Stand Hill. Last Stand Hill is about the last place a sage tactician would select for a defensive position, but it was the only place available as the large numbers of Indians inhibited movement to a more defensible position and given the overwhelming Indian numbers, the offensive action originally planned came to naught. In the end, one battalion of the 7th was out manned, out gunned, out soldiered and overwhelmed. The second and third battalions held and survived to tell about it, even though they had significant casualties stemming from Major Reno's botched charge and retreat in the valley of the Little Big Horn at the start of the engagement.

Single shot rifles, albeit mostly Sharps and Rolling Blocks held off a numerically superior Indian force at the Second Battle of the Adobe Walls in the Panhandle of Texas. Something like 28 traders and hunters held off an estimated 700 Indians led by the famous Quanah Parker for a couple of days almost two years to the day before the Little Big Horn Battle. The buffalo hunter's rifles were wielded by competent men and not the largely untrained soldiers of the 7th. The success of those few hunters would have probably been the same had they been armed with Trapdoors. Accuracy, range and rate of fire would have been about the same between Sharps and Trapdoors and the effect on the opposing Indians would have been the same.

For further research or reading on the topic I would recommend "40 Miles a Day on Beans and Hay," "Frontier Regulars," "With Crook at the Rosebud," "Marching to Valhalla," "Lakota Noon (The Indian Narrative of Custer's Defeat)" and "Sagebrush Soldier."

[Combat Diver]

Thanks for that study Scharf!

CD

[dikman]

Most interesting. What you're saying about the "Trapdoor" rifles reminds me a bit of the battle at Rorke's Drift, where a small band of (trained) soldiers, using Martini-action rifles, held off a (vastly) numerically superior Zulu force.

Based on what you're saying one can't help thinking that the outcome probably would have been the same even if Custer's men had repeaters.

[Speedo66]

Unfortunately, the army didn't learn their lesson, and sent troops armed with the same Trapdoors to the Spanish-American War. The Spanish had repeating, flat shooting 7mm Mausers, our troops finally got Krags to try and match them.

[starmac]

Back to the original question. Considering much of the world can not by law own any firearm by law, and some parts of the world many folks are just plain too poor to own them, I think lever guns would be percieved as a dream in some countries.

[OuchHot!]

Years ago, I hunted chukar in territory where it was not uncommon to have covies flush sequentially. With a game bag of 12-15 birds per day, rapid reloading was useful given the mandated 3rd capacity of pumps and autoloaders. With a couple of extra rounds handy, it was pretty easy to keep the shotgun fed. I often thought that a "sidesaddle" carrier for a lever gun in .357 or .44 might be handy. Jeff Cooper accepted students for training with marlin and Winchester leverguns.....I imagine that he worked out methods for keeping them fed during extended tactical problems. I took the original Q as how are LG perceived. I think most (including shooters) see them as sporting rifles or relatively benign antiques. I know that sailors saw them as excellent defensive weapons that could be swung in a tight cabin, worked around rigging on deck and reach out and touch someone. Cruisers from a wide background saw them as effective weapons that avoided the legal hassle of trying to clear customs with a handgun.

[762 shooter]

Well there goes our cover. Just heard that the Canadian terrorist used a 30-30 lever action rifle to do his dirty work.

Heard it on CNN and you know you can depend on their firearm knowledge.

762

[HangFireW8]

Apparently taken down by the Parliament's Sergeant at Arms himself... at the doors to the Parliament itself... with a handgun.

[Scharfschuetze]

Saw a photo of the miscreant on FOX and it does indeed look like the scumbag used a lever action.

[starmac]

It just wouldn't work unless he had one of them mossberg tacticool thutty thuttys.

[TXGunNut]

Was hoping our Peruvian missionary would weigh in on this thread, he seems to be able to obtain serviceable leverguns when he's on assignment.

[TXGunNut]

Excellent post, Scharf. Custer had a number of factors going against him, luck can only take you so far.

[Hang Fire]

Levers were the original "assault rifle". Only technology has changed this perception. They are considered antiquated by modern standards. Tell that to the all the deer that have fallen to them over the years ;)

Or the Germans dropped on the Eastern Front in WWI by the Winchester M95.

[starmac]

How are levers percieved throughout the world. Me thinks the Duke was liked everywhere, by everybody, so everybody, everywhere probably wanted a winchester.

[robg]

in the uk people think cowboy guns .me being a lefty love em still cant understand why they fit me and feel so right. they just work :smile:

[MtGun44]

I believe the regular Army troops in Cuba had the Krags and only the militias, like Teddy's
Rough Riders had the trapdoors. Even the Krag was inferior in rapid loading to the stripper
clips in the 7x57 Mausers.

I have seen individual marksman's rifle target record books of the trapdoor era, and they were
shooting at out to 600 yds, and recording the individual shots in a permanent personal record,
with periodic reshooting as part of the plan. Not exactly sure when this was happening, so it
may have been a result of the Little Big Horn loss, or perhaps different units trained different
ways. This was at Ft. Laramie, in their museum, but I cannot place the actual date of this
type if individual marksmanship book - but I was impressed that they seemed pretty serious
about riflery at that time. From what others say, it must have been after LBH.

Bill

[Geezer in NH]

Deadly firearms only the government should have them as anyone can kill someone with one. :cry:

[Ramjet-SS]

Wow History lessons and all excellent. Very interesting to say the least .

Another read I would recommend is On Killing By LT Colonel David Grossman you might be surprised and come away with a perspective just what history has told us about close quarter combat and the decision to shoot another human eye to eye. It may have been allot tougher on the soldiers than the Indians in that battle for many reasons. But good read just the same.

[Combat Diver]

Just read an article by Paul Scarlata in Shotgun News (Nov 3, 14 issue) the French were desperate and purchased 15,000 Winchester 1894s in 30-30 from Winchester along with 15 million FMJ rounds during 1914-1915.CD

[Scharfschuetze]

Deleted. Wrong thread.

[10mmShooter]

I think whether historically accurate or Hollywood lore, I think our fine lever guns get a pass, most people simply look at them think "Old West" or Cowboy" so they don't pay any attention to tube capacity or caliber or deadliness. Which is good....since the Anti's go to the other extreme when they look at an evil "black gun".

[bob208]

the rough riders use krag carbines. the black Calvary troops used krag carbines. the n.y infantry used trapdoors.

[DanWalker]

I took a win 94 trapper (45LC) and a Marlin 336(35rem) to Africa two years ago. No one gave me any grief about them. One of the native(non english speaking) trackers was handing me my winchester one morning as I was climbing out of the truck to stalk gemsbok, and smiled at me and said "cowboy". Still makes me smile when I think about it.

[Lowpower]

I believe there were more original 92's sold in Australia than anywhere else in the world. They were certainly very popular amongst miners, stockmen and farmers and came in cartridges well suited to the game we had available back then.

A few dealers here have made quite a bit of money gathering and shipping 92's back to the USA. At an auction a few years ago one US buyer bought over 100 rifles to ship back home and most of these were rare 92 variants. A lot of those old guns saw hard use and a lot of the ones for sale are clunkers or are no longer original. At one stage rifles were picked up and refurbished in large numbers for re-sale. This was in the post WWII era. 32/20, 25/20 and 218 Bee were pretty popular here.

These days the old 30/30 is still king in levergun calibers but levers in 45/70 and 44 mag are also quite popular.

I'd love to have one in .25/20. Lp

[Canuck Bob]

As a Canadian I feel the lever is the best hunting rifle for Canada. I personally don't subscribe to long range big game hunting. However the 303 Brit domesticated wild Canada. I suspect this is the reality for much of the world.

As far as the way the public sees levers per the original post. To the normal masses all guns are a 10 on the scale. My neighbours don't know a Daisy BB gun from a AK47. Its me they trust to be a responsible gun owner. Shooters are the ambassadors the guns never will be.

Personally I have no desire to own a high capacity assault rifle. I'm a dedicated lever action user. They were so popular in north America because of their ability to feed a family or protect it from marauding bears and such. Its ability to carry on a horse made it premier in the early years of development. The assault rifle we picture is an urban warfare development probably from the European eastern front in WW2. The AK47 and SSK have piled up millions of souls of our armies and civilians, friends and allies, since the days of Stalin and Mao. I have no wish to carry one. If I could carry a C1 FN or some version I would. In Canada I once swore to lay down my life carrying one and now they would make me a criminal for owning one. The only military arm I own is a Lee Enfield No.5 built at the end of WW2 to honor the vets in my family. The rifle Col. Cooper copied for his Scout development by adding the long eye relief scope.