Winchester vs. Marlin . . 30/30 vs. 32 Spl. . . . some lever gun help?

[bedbugbilly]

Some like blondes, some like redheads . . . so don't want this to turn in to a Marlin versus Winchester please . . .

O.K. - I've shot BP for 50+ years and a while back got in to reloading - I like vintage 38 spl. revolvers and I love shooting SA. A while back, I took the plunge into "bottleneck" rifle cartridges with a German 8mm Mauser that a shirt-tail relation had brought back from France in 1919. I'm still learning but enjoying it. Like anything connected with all of this hobby . . . I now have the "itch" and would like to scratch it with possibly a lever gun.

Many years ago, I hunted with a Winchester 94 30/30 that was my father-in-law's. A great gun but unfortunately, his son ended up with it and sold it (the $ were more important than sentiment I guess?). When I was a kid, my Dad bought a pristine used 94 in 32 Special - I shot it a few times and that was great as well. Then he traded it in on one to the 1966 "Centennial" rifles. Following his death, my brother ended up with it.

My problem is this . . . . I've run across three rifles . . .

1. Winchester 94 32 Special pre 64 flat band - V.G. to Exc. and around $450
2. Winchester 94 "Ranger" 30/30 (USA New Haven) like new - $400
3. Marlin 336 W 30/30 - Used Exc. - $380

All seem to be nice and fairly priced from what I'm seeing.

I am not going to be hunting (those days are done) but do want to shoot cast with milder loads for just fun plinking. I load pistol cartridges in both smokeless and BP. I realize the twist rate is different in the 30/30 from the 32 Spl. and that the 32 Spl. was designed originally to be reloaded with BP. From what I've been reading, the performance of both cartridges is not really that different.

So . . . my questions . . . .

I want to set a budget of around $500 or less and all three of these rifles fall in to that . . .

As far as the Winchesters go . . . I have a personal opinion (which may be wrong) that the older rifles are better than the newer rifles - i.e. smoother actions, etc. Is that a fair assumption or am I incorrect in thinking that? Or, can the newer actions be "broken in" (for want of a better word) so that they become "buttery smooth" to operate and get the same "feel" as the older Winchesters?

Marlin 336W - I have never shot nor really handled a Marlin. I know they are and have an excellent reputation. Can someone tell me why I may want to go with a Marlin over a Winchester or a Winchester over a Marlin? I'm talking apples to apples - i.e. 30/30 and 30/30. (If I settle on a 30/30).

At this point, I am possibly leaning towards the older Winchester 94 in 32 Special just because the cartridge was designed for both smokeless and BP. But . . . is it feasible or doable to load the 30/30 with BP and cast and have it work O.K. with the rate of twist that the 30/30 barrel has?

Either way that I go cartridge wise, I'm going to have to get dies, etc. to reload so that's not really an issue. I do have a 175 gr. Lee mold for the 8mm that drops at .323 that I thought I might be able to size down to .321 (as the 3rd edition of Lyman's Cast Handbook suggests" for the 32 Special. I also have a 120 gr. Flat Nose NOE mold for the 8mm that I think I can size down to work and still have adequate lube grooves. I'm aware that I should stick with flat nose for tube magazine. Or, I can get an appropriate Lee or Ideal/Lyman mold.

I'd appreciate any thoughts, opinions, etc. as to the + and - of both a Winchester and Marlin and the 30/30 and 32 Special as well. I should mention that most of my plinking would be done at shorter distances - 50 yards to 100 yards. I'm not looking to load "hot" loads - just be able to play around with different powders, loads and several boolit designs and weights. I guess you could say I'm looking at more "cowboy" loads than hunting loads.

Thanks for any help or information as the reloading of these cartridges would be new to me as well as the more frequent use of a "lever gun". It's been a lot of years since I've shot a Winchester and either of those cartridges.

[TXGunNut]

Personally I'd go with the 32 but a thutty-thutty is never a bad choice. In theory we can push a 32 cal boolit a little harder than we can a 30-30 but mine are probably just plinkers so it doesn't much matter to me. I enjoy the feel of a nice old Winchester, I'd handle all three if possible. I think the Ranger would be my 3rd choice, not in the same class as the other two and I'm an ardent Winchester fan.

[Bzcraig]

Based on what you have stated and I were in your shoes, I would be leaning heavily toward the 32. The 32 has a nostalgia value the 30-30 can't compare with. 30-30's will around for a long time if you choose to get one later.

[TXGunNut]

Wasn't going to mention that but the 32WS has roughly 200% of the cool factor of the thutty-thutty.

[Zim]

The 32.

The 8mm molds will work great and if they will chamber, you won't have to size down. Just watch the pointy ones. Shoot single shot or one in the tube and one in the chamber. Probably won't matter if you are at the range.

Pre-64 Winnie is also getting to be a collectors. Hope it is in great shape for you. $50 difference between pre-64 and post, go with the pre everytime. Parts are still available, but you probably don't need them.

Marlin will have a pistol grip (normally) - which feels better to you? Straight grip or pistol or does it matter?
Marlin is easier to strip to clean. Winnie's are not bad, can be taken apart, just need a little more time and patience. Just clean them without pulling the bolt.
Marlin is easier to scope. Don't scope the Pre-64, please. It is already drilled and tapped for a receiver aperture mount. Use it if the buckhorns get fuzzy. I now understand this...

And when you get tired of it, give me a call. I'm playing with a post 64 with a 35 cal hole it the barrel. Smile! 35/30-30 were the next step after the 32 Win Special, the 35 Rem never gave it a chance. So, if the barrel is pitted, shot out or bent, think 35.

You did tell us the condition of the rifles. The 336W is newer as is the 94 Ranger. Condition determines price a lot of times. Mechanically sound? Don't want you to buy a rifle then have to rebuild it. Also check the wood at the wrist. Both brands are known to crack, split and snap when a horse rolls on them. So make sure the barrel is straight. Good luck!

Be sure to smile when you pull the trigger! It makes you shoot better.

[frnkeore]

Even though I'm more of a Marlin fan because of it's easier take down, I'd go with the Win 32 Special.

If you keep a eye on Ebay, you can find two very nice GC bullets, the 321297, a 181 gr (mine casts .322) and a 319295, 175 gr (mine casts .321). For PB there is the common 321247 (165 gr) and if you have a larger groove dia. the 321232 is just the ticket (.323/.324).

Frank

[Lead Fred]

Range VS knock down. The 30-30 will have the distance, but the 32 will have more knock down.
My two hunting buds have one of each. the Marlin 30-30 hands down out shoots the 32spec, but close in the 32 spc just rips meat up.

I had two Marlins (the guy above bought my 30AS) I kept the 1949 Winnie for Mrs Pard. Ive I ever get another 30-30, it will be a Marlin.

[OverMax]

If you wear glass's buy the Marlin. But Winchesters will always command more than their worth and especially so for a a pre 64. Those will always be highly prized rifles. As far as shooting B/P through any>why? {Too messy to bother with and very corrosive if any of it is missed in clean up.} As far as a cast for the 32 Special. I cast for my 32s & 30-30 also. Paid big bucks once for a 321297 obsolete (Ideal) Lyman mold that was in (new un-used) condition. If I could redo that action. I without hesitation now buy a NOE or some other good aftermarket mold instead. ie better bullets for the 32s purpose. But no mater which rifle you chose. You'll enjoy it's company when targeting or in the field with.

[salvadore]

It's been 46 years since I owned a 30/30 '94, I reloaded with a LeeLoader, no lead. However I currently own a 32 WSP. I've shot Lee's light 8mm, a Ranch dog FP design and Lyman's lovern 8mm. All shot OK but would dig into the rifling if I kept the base of the bullet above the end of the neck, so finally settled on accurate's 32-160-G. The group below was the accurate bullet @ less than 1700fps out of a 16" barrel. I call it my Tanker '94. The gent I got it from said his Dad bought it in 47, but the SN indicates '48 or '49

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm297/farcla/DSCN0694_zps129c3008.jpg (http://s299.photobucket.com/user/farcla/media/DSCN0694_zps129c3008.jpg.html)

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm297/farcla/3eceee13-256a-40c5-8e5b-83822f589898_zps0441d739.jpg (http://s299.photobucket.com/user/farcla/media/3eceee13-256a-40c5-8e5b-83822f589898_zps0441d739.jpg.html)

[Bardo]

My 1951 doesn't have the holes for a receiver peep sights but my 1960 dose. My dads 1950 doesn't have them either. All 3 guns are 32 specials. I actually like shooting my marlins more. I think the action is smoother and like the pistol grip. I don't have a 32 special in a marlin but I do have a 30-30's and a 35 Remington. The 35 Remington is the favorite. But I spent more on the Winchesters and they may look more classic.

Bardo
117364

[Char-Gar]

I have all three, two Marlin 30-30s, one Winchester 30-30 and one Winchester 32WS and here is my thinking on these rifles.

The Marlin 30-30s have a 1-10 twist rifling and the Winchester a 1-12. This means you can get a little more velocity out of the Winchesters before accuracy rolls snake eyes, but in all reality this is not a big factor.

The 32WS in either Winchester or Marlin has a 1-16 twist rifling which translated into full factory velocity with cast bullets with full factory accuracy. If you are going to run the 32 WS at less than 2,000 fs, they have no advantage over the 30-30

The Marlin actions are slimmer and weigh less. They also take down easy to be cleaned from the breech. They are also less complex than the Winchester. The solid top of the Marlin receiver also take a scope much better than a Winchester. All of this gives to nod to the Marlin in my way of thinking.

The Winchester is best left as a saddle carbine with iron sights on the barrel or a receiver mounted peep.

Anyway you go, both rifle marker and rifle calibers are top notch fine rifles and calibers for the cast bullet shooter. None of them will be a mistake. When faced with a choice, just pick the one that tickles your fancy.

[bob208]

is flat band as in the band around the barrel and mag tube behind the front sight is flat. then that would be the one they were only made for a short time in the 40's. i have only seen 2 of them both in .25 and i own them both.

[Scharfschuetze]

I'd definitely go with the flat band 32 Special Model 94. I believe that that is a very good price for what is probably a very desirable carbine. For some reason, 32 Specials go for a bit less than the 30/30s in the same platform around here, but the 32 is a great calibre and worth loading for. As noted above, it is cast boolit friendly and I've had great success with my Model 64 in that calibre. I don't think a deer could tell the difference between it and my Model 94 in 30/30, but the 32 Special just seems a bit more fun to me.

For shooting? As you already have a mould for a 32 calibre rifle, that may sway your decision somewhat, but in the end, I'd determine which rifle had the best bore and the tightest action to best guarantee a good shooter.

For collecting? The Pre 64 Model 94 without a doubt.

[M-Tecs]

If I found a Winchester 94 32 Special pre 64 flat band - V.G. to Exc. for $450 it would be mine. You can alway find nice 336's. Nice pre 64 94's for a realistic price not so much.

Interesting read on the 32 Special.
http://www.levergun.com/articles/special.htm

[Duckiller]

If you don't mind reloading or hunting all over for ammo get the 32 WS. 30/30 is more available except non-lead. Evidently Cal. is going to need 108% of production capacity to arm non-toxic hunters. I would get the 32WS, but then I have one as well as a 250-3000, 30 Rem. 35Rem and a 348 Win. Sons claim I have too many guns that you can't readily buy ammo for.

[smokeywolf]

Would definately go for the '94 32 Winchester Special.

[Char-Gar]

OK...I can't stand it. Here is my 1959 Winchester 94 Carbine in 32 WS. I bought it in 2006 for $300.00. It was still stiff being almost unused. The previous owner added the recoil pad and Lyman 66 receiver sight. It shoots like a house-a-fire.

[salvadore]

If you are worried about availability, I picked up forty pieces of 30/30 brass that some nonreloader had left on the ground. Ran them thru the 32 spec. die and trimmed. I don't even bother to sort brass by headstamp.

[bedbugbilly]

Thank you all for the great information - I greatly appreciate it! So here's how it went . . .

All were at a LGS that I haunt once in a while. I had pretty much made up my mind that I was going with the Winnie 94 in 32 special. I had a gun to pick up that was being repaired so it was a good excuse to go check them out.

I asked about the three . . . I was told the Marlin went out the door yesterday. O.K. That narrows it down. I asked about the Ranger in 30/30 and one guy said it was on "hold". I then asked about the 94 flat band and I got some "hems and haws" between the several fellows working there. One guy said he was sure it was gone. They looked and couldn't find it. Another guy said he would look "in back". The fellow I usually deal with asked if there was anything else I was looking for and I told him I wanted to look at the S & W Model 36 3" that I knew they had taken in. He got it out - I looked and he said he'd go in back and see about the flat band. He came back in a couple of minutes and quietly said that it was in the back and it was being "worked on". I asked him what the issue was and he just said that they had discovered it had "problems" which he then translated in to "you don't want it". I know him well enough that if he would say that to me, he was right . . . I didn't want it.

But, all of this has given me a lot to think about and I'll keep looking and eventually run across something - looking is half the fun anyway! LOL

The day wasn't a complete loss though . . . the Smith Model 36 was in nice shape and I'd been looking for a 3" to go along with the Model 36 snub that I usually carry. He gave me a great price that I couldn't refuse so it followed me home and I'm happy to have it!

Thanks again for all of the information - greatly appreciated and when I find something, I'll post.

[TXGunNut]

Old Winchesters are often project guns, I'd follow up to see what they thought was wrong with it. You never know. 3" 36 is a nice piece, tho. Hard to find but so much easier to shoot than a snubby.

[Canuck Bob]

I'm a 444 Marlin guy. When faced with a similar decision I chose the Win 94 in 32 Special. be aware that the Win 94 may need drilling and tapping for a receiver sight. If original that will affect value. The prices you quote are excellent. Is the Ranger an Angle Eject? If scoping the Marlin or AE Winchesters are needed. I would pick the Marlin for scoping. I've heard complaints about Rangers. Mic Mc Pherson refuses to work on them I think. They probably have the rebounding hammer system universally disliked it seems.

[texasbilly]

I agree with the others that the preferred rifle for shooting cast boolits is the Winchester (over the Marlin). Either the 30/30 or the 32 special would be excellent choices. I am judging my preference based upon the assumption that the Marlin has the micro groove rifling, and has the reputation that it may not be effective with cast boolits.

[Larry Gibson]

The Winchester rifle with 24 or 26" barrel in 32 SPL with it's 16" twist is the best of the two cartridges and rifles for cast bullet shooting to the cartridges full potential. Held down to 1800 - 1900 fps there's not really much difference between the cartridges with cast bullets or the rifles. Pushing 150 - 180 gr cast bullets upwards of 2200 - 2500 fps (yes you can do that while keeping under the SAAMI pressure MAP) is where the 32 SPL comes into its own.

Larry Gibson

[frnkeore]

I'm a 444 Marlin guy. When faced with a similar decision I chose the Win 94 in 32 Special. be aware that the Win 94 may need drilling and tapping for a receiver sight. If original that will affect value. The prices you quote are excellent. Is the Ranger an Angle Eject? If scoping the Marlin or AE Winchesters are needed. I would pick the Marlin for scoping. I've heard complaints about Rangers. Mic Mc Pherson refuses to work on them I think. They probably have the rebounding hammer system universally disliked it seems.

I used to have a Marlin 336 in 32 Win Spec. While it wasn't a target rifle, it had good HV hunting accuracy (2" @ 100). The 32 Win Spec, Marlin's advertized "Ballard" type rifling a 6 groove style.

Frank

[451whitworth]

I agree with the others that the preferred rifle for shooting cast boolits is the Winchester (over the Marlin). Either the 30/30 or the 32 special would be excellent choices. I am judging my preference based upon the assumption that the Marlin has the micro groove rifling, and has the reputation that it may not be effective with cast boolits.
My late 1950's microgroove Marlin 32 Win Spl is as accurate as my M94. The "assumption" about micro groove and cast has been proven incorrect yet still persists.

[Dave Bulla]

Sounds like you have a couple sentimental reasons to buy a Winchester in 32 special. I'd like one myself as it's the gun I used the very first time I ever deer hunted.

That said, these days, I'm a Marlin junkie. I love the rugged, simple design, solid top, side eject and so on. If I were you, I'd try looking at some of the older Marlins from the early 50's. The "SC" (sporting carbine, 20" barrel) and "A" models ("Rifle" model, 24" barrel) are especially desireable, look good and are known for excellent accuracy. If you stumble across a 336A or 336SC with nice wood and a checkered stock for a reasonable price, jump on it as it's likely a "deluxe" model. They both have 2/3 length magazine tubes and fore end caps instead of full length tubes and barrel bands. **Do not confuse the older 24" barrel "A" model with the current "A" model that has cheap birch stocks and full length mag tube.** The "RC" (regular carbine) is the 20" barreled model everyone thinks of when they think Marlin lever gun and has full length tube and barrel bands. The older guns have a fat fore end referred to as a "perch belly" and while it's not as slim and trim as a Winchester, it does feel good in your hands.

The older guns also have ballard rifling and what is called a "waffle top" receiver which is just a bunch of wavy lines similar to a shotgun rib in the receiver top. This is a desirable feature but most people into collecting don't want them drilled and tapped. If you find one that is D&T, it should reflect in the price but is not a deal breaker. It just means that you can get a good deal on a shooter deer rifle for a few $ less and you can even put a scope on it if you'd like.

As already mentioned, you CAN shoot cast out of microgroove Marlins just fine. The only thing about it (in my opinion) is that while it can be done with great results, it takes just a smidgen more tinkering than a standard ballard rifled gun to get the good results. Not a big deal.

Now, if you really want some fun with a lever gun, get yourself a standard Marlin 1895 with ballard rifling in 45-70, some dies and a couple boolit molds from 148 gr collar buttons up to 500 ish grain bunker busters, a bottle of Unique and go play... Or... some Goex FF, some card wads, lube etc and play the BP tune.