Thoughts on 40-70SS?

[Kansas Ed]

Decided to get myself into some Holy Black. Not to mention fulfill a 20+ year old dream rifle. I put myself on the 17+ month wait for the rifle, but I'm needing a little more input on the cartridge selection. I have some time to make changes to the order.

I've been high and lo searching on the internet and none of my questions are getting answered by the information I'm finding.....I'm probably not searching on the right key words.

I'm a hard core 40 caliber fan anyway, so I want to stick with the 40 for reasons of recoil and similarity to what I shoot already. I already shoot 1895 Winchesters in .405 and 40-72, 1886's in 40-82.

First off...I would like to find a dimensional drawing of the 40-70SS. If anyone has a link it would be much appreciated.

I would also like to shoot the 400-430gr boolits up to 500 or so yards, so cartridge capacity does come into play. I have some brass for the 40-72 both Jamison and Bertram, and .405 in Bertram. I keep trying to find the Hornady .405 brass but it always seems to be out of stock. If I could lay in a supply of brass first, that would go a long way to determining my cartridge.

I would like some more information or opinions if anyone has it on the 40-82 Shiloh, and the 40-70BN. Both are interesting propositions.

Enough for now...if anyone bites, I'll ask more ;)

Thanks,
Ed

[longranger]

I have a Shiloh #1 32" half round 40-70 SS It shoots a PJ 420gr. Creedmoor bullet with 65grs. Swiss 1.5 @1250fps and is very accurate @ 500m. With groups 1-2 MOA on no wind days.I have 50 pieces of Rocky Mountain brass(no longer available)I use for paper patching(Steve Brooks nose pour adjustable PP mould),it fits perfectly,other options are the stretched 30-40 Krag Rem.brass.Rims are a slightly thick in my gun but work very well with grease groove bullets. No experience with the other two.Shiloh,Buffalo Arms sells the brass.It is the only rifle I own that I have never seen a factory loaded round in real life.

[Don McDowell]

As with many of Winchesters cartridges, the 40-72 is just a knock off of the 40-70 sharps straight. Today you have many different options in chambering, some use the 30-40 brass (think 40-72 here) some are adapted to the shortened ever so slightly 405 case. Folks either love it or hate it, and from reading some of the stuff from the old dead guys, they were the same way on it.

[.22-10-45]

I have an Axtell No.1 Creedmoor in .40 2 1/2" I haven't got around to shooting black in it yet, but with H4895 or Varget and 300 to 350gr. bullets it groups in an inch or slightly less at 100yds. I also have a Lone Starr Silhouette 34" 1/2 oct. dbl. sets chambered for the .40 2 1/4" (.40-70 B.N.) again. haven't tried black yet..but this one likes Varget & AA5744..this one will take a bit more work to equal the Axtell in accuracy...If I can ever find the time! Few years back, I obtained an original Remington Mid-Range rolling block. This one has a new Green Mtn. 32" .40-70 brl. fitted..no alteration to wood or metal was done so the original 28" .44-77 barrel..which came with the gun can be re-fitted. I wish this one could talk!..that original brl. left the factory as a .40-70 straight..some time still in the creedmoor shooting time frame, it was re-chambered/bored to .44-77 (longer range accuracy?) but the kicker is that both the original brl. & rifle frame are stamped with British proofs. (Remington did have a sales office in England). The rifle has it's original Mid-Range vernier tang & windage adjustable spirit level front sights. Now this one due to it's age is fed only Swiss 1 1/2..first time out using a Steve Brooks 400gr. Postal bullet cast 20-1 lead/tin alloy & SPG lube..groupd well within 1" at 100yds!..It ain't supposed to be that easy!. The .40's are my favorite B.P. caliber.

[Lead pot]

Out off the 7 Shiloh's I have the .40-70 SS was my first. I like the .40-70 and I have it shooting quite well. But I have altered the chamber.
But until a company like Starline or Jamison starts making brass for the .40-70 I would draw up a print based on the .405 Hornady brass and have a reamer ground and let Shiloh use that reamer or ask them if they have a reamer based on the Hornady brass and possably change to a faster rate of twist if long range shooting is in your plans.
I have shot the .40-70 at long range matches but for this I favor my .44's over all of the calibers I have.

[Kansas Ed]

Thanks for the replies. Longranger, what vintage Shiloh do you have, and was it Shiloh's standard twist, or custom? Don brings up an interesting point, in that the 40-72 was practically the same. I wondered as much, and also wonder if the Jamison 40-72 would be the answer to the 40-70SS headstamp that is unavailable in their lineup. I'm also curious as to why BA lists brass for Shiloh Chambers, Original Chambers, and non-specific. Seems like a lot of variation to wade through, which is why I'm also curious about the "40-82 Shiloh" cartridge.

LeadPot..what did you do to the chamber and why? I think I'd read posts where Shiloh would chamber for the Hornady brass now, but finding the brass seems to be tough.

Thanks again,
Ed

[longranger]

My Shiloh is of 2004 Vintage, with 1:16 ROT, not custom just what they were doing at the time.I have no complaints with the BACO stretched brass. It is important to dry the chamber between shots and it reduces stretching.

[Lead pot]

Ed.
I changed the throat to a lead bullet throat.
I made a chamber cast of my rifle and drew up a print with the dimensions I wanted to match throat of an original chamber and had Manson make a reamer. http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/th_IMG_0429-2.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_0429-2.jpg.html) That reamer has a 4 degree/1.5 degree compound lead. This cleaned out the 45 degree chamber end this rifle had.
I also used the reamer to make a die to swage down the tight fitting base of the .405 Hornady brass so it will chamber in my rifle with out a problem.
There is nothing wrong with the stretched .30-40 brass Buff Arms sells. I have used it since about 1999 and I still have and use all but maybe about 15-20 I ruined out of 500 cases that have been loaded many-many times over these years. The difference between the original, C-Sharps and Shiloh brass you asked about is the rim thickness. If the rim recess is in the chamber is too deep you will have a head space problem and this stretches the cases and you will get case neck separation problems.
I just like the Hornady brass for the .40-2.5 but the case necks are to tight to be able to load a GG bullet in my Shiloh chamber so I use that brass for the PP bullets and it is great for that..
I might add. I also have 60 .40-70 Bertram cases. These have the correct head stamp and they work perfect in my chamber but that brass is priced way to high.
I changed the throat because I had a problem cutting lead rings shooting GG bullets that would smear lead fouling down the barrel also paper ring problems. I did not lengthen the chamber just the throat.

[MikeT]

If you are not shooting at over 600 yards, then why not a 40-50 SBN, which is formed from 45-70 brass.
You will need a shallow seating depth for shooting gg bullets, maybe 3/8" or less.
I shoot pp bullets so I have no issues there.

My Shiloh 40-50 SBN has the 16 twist barrel and it shoots 400 grain bullets to 800 yards with accuracy.

Keep on hav'n fun!
MikeT

[Lead pot]

If I was to build another .40 it would be based on the .45-70 case or the 2.4. For some reason people shy away from the bottlenecked cases shooting blk powder.

[Kansas Ed]

Geeze...you guys are sure giving me plenty to think about. I admit there is quite a bit of appeal of being able to buy good old 45-70 brass and go that route. Heavens knows I have enough odd ball cases to worry about already in my stable. So now, what advantages of the 40-50SBN over the 40-65 WCF? Shiloh offers both.

Considering the lead ring issue that Leadpot has experienced, it's good information to have in the back of my mind. I think I may be able to get a throating reamer for a 40-65 without going custom....

Truth is, now that I'm talking to all of you on this...the 40-70SS is becoming less and less appealing. I think Don started out this conversation with the statement that "the old dead guys" either loved it or hated it too. Add to that the different chambers for different brass, and general brass lack of availability....I'm thinking of an order change after I've slept on it a few weeks. They told me 17 months to production...so I have some time.

Ed

[Lead pot]

Ed.

Don't let me talk you out of the .40-2.5, nothing wrong with that caliber.
When I first got mine I went through some hair scratching before I learned not to feed it what it don't like. Kind of like a two year old that will spit back what he don't like. :) When the rifle and I came to an understanding we got along just fine. It shot just as well and still does like the rest of my powder rifles do. It shot just fine before I changed the throat but I don't care how tight the case fit the chamber it had some fouling problems with lead something I don't have any more.
When I ordered my first Shiloh I wanted it in a .44-77 because I always favored the .44's and Heather talked me out of getting that terrible caliber because "it's so hard to load for" or "good brass is none existent" Well for the next 12 years the longing never went away and I finally ordered it and it was the best thing I ever did to satisfied my want for the .44-77 and it has never disappointed me.
This is what I wanted back then. Something nobody wants, a light weight barrel, single trigger, and worst of all a shoulder busting crescent butplate. :)
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/th_IMG_2093_zpsf38ac949.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_2093_zpsf38ac949.jpg.html)

[MikeT]

The difference between the 40-50 BN and the 40-65 WCF is about 8-10 grains of 1.5 Fg powder. The original Sharps company never chambered a 40-65.
I do not know which one I would choose over the other. I always shoot my 40-70SS at the Quigley match. My 40-50 BN is my favorite gong match rifle, and with a 340 grain pp bullets it is good for schuetzen 200 yard matches also. My 40-65 is now a safe queen, along with my 40-82, which was replaced by a 45-70 for long range shooting.

I would not be afraid of the Shiloh 40-70SS. It will shoot good with Hornady or BA 'shiloh' 30-40 stretched brass. You could down load a 40-70SS to a 40-50 with a grease cookie under the bullet. I do it for the off hand part of the Quigley match. One thing for sure, the 40-70SS looks real good in a cartridge belt.

Lead pot has a good point also in that if you have an attraction to the 40-70SS, you may as well scratch that itch.

Keep on hav'n fun!
MikeT

[Kansas Ed]

LeadPot, that is the first I've seen photo's of with the Crescent. I like it! Extra Fancy or Presentation wood?

Thanks to everyone for replying. I think I'll stand pat for the next few months on my order, and see what the brass situation does. This thread has been a great help.

Ed

[Don McDowell]

Ed, sticking with the 40-70 is the best deal,it,s the cartridge your gut says to get. Jamison also offers 405 brass so having the chamber cut for the 405 rims should make brass easier to come by.
Everybody said how tuff it would be to feed the 44-77, turned out to be a bunch easier than most thought.

[Lead pot]

No Ed that wood is just one upgrade above the straight grain. That is their fancy then they have extra fancy and the presentation.
This is more in line what the extra fancy looks like. Shiloh uses some very fine wood.
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/th_211_zps6cf0265e.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/211_zps6cf0265e.jpg.html)http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/th_202_zps641019bb.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/202_zps641019bb.jpg.html)