Coating hardness/ barrel wear?

[ombesb]

Old guy here who has not dabbled in any of the new pc stuff...... yet. Are there any wear issues on the barrel?? How hard is the coating? No lead in my barrels is very enticing , means no brushes and less wear and tear . So are there any down sides other than doing things different than I am used to??

[Omega]

I am going to keep an eye on this thread. A guy over on 300Blktalk has had a barrel wore almost smooth. I am not sure if it was the number of rounds, PC or a combination thereof but it was smooth: http://www.300blktalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=136&t=88878

[sdcitizen]

Here is a thread discussing the supposed wear, only instance I have ever heard of http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?233305-Abrasiveness-of-PC-bullets . Most powdercoatings I believe are around BHN 45, if memory serves correctly, still far softer than copper.

[bangerjim]

If you read ALL the 300 link above, you will find out his barrel design may be key in his wear problem and not the black PC.

It could have been:
Boolit size
Rifling style
Speed
# of rounds
coating powder

.......we just cannot put a finger on a specific thing that caused wear.


I and many others on here shoot matte black boolits all the time with no detectable problmes.

Pleae, use at your own discression. Your mileage may vary. Use only shiny powers and avoid the matte and flat powders if any doubts.

But there just is not that much out there that is scientifically documentd to prove the black powder coating "wears out my barrel".

There is just too much here-say and way too many "other factors" that have come to light on the very few instances of these comments in the past.

Good luck on your shooting! We will all keep evaluating the situation over time.

banger

[HollowPoint]

Barrel wear may or may not be true when it comes to certain PCs. I don't think anyone really knows. I think we shooters just need to have something to blame for the bad things that happen to our guns. The individual being eluded to in the link is the one to blame for the wear on his barrel; not necessarily the PC.

I still hear about aluminum gas-checks being bad for rifle bores and causing pre-mature wear. If you think about it, even copper jackets will eventually wear out a guns' barrel if you shoot enough rounds through it. There are many factors that can induce wear on the bore of our guns. Many of these factors have nothing to do with PC. Before Powder-Coating was ever introduced to the shooting sports, barrel wear has been a constant possibility under certain circumstances.

HollowPoint

[Echd]

It is also important to consider powder that was used with the .300 BLK.

.300 is an unusual cartridge in application and reloading. There have been powders, in particular Lil Gun, that have been shown to possibly do rather extreme damage to the bore over time.

[oldpapps]

Old guy here who has not dabbled in any of the new pc stuff...... yet. Are there any wear issues on the barrel?? How hard is the coating? No lead in my barrels is very enticing , means no brushes and less wear and tear . So are there any down sides other than doing things different than I am used to??

Up front, I powder coat and like the results.

I have seen reports of barrel wear but have yet to see any proof one way or the other. That said, the powder color in question was black and I moved away from black just to be on the safe side. The black pigment is generally carbon black, a known abrasive. But, the pigment is held in a polyester coating. I have moved to a 'clear' polyester for coating (I do sprinkle in some color from time to time).

As to how hard is the coating. One of the entries above gives a number. I don't know but it is not as hard as jacket material or those steel jackets.
I fully agree with your statement about brushing-wear. I believe that improper and excessive cleaning causes greater barrel damage than the actual shooting. A brass/bronze brush going in and out (reversing directions!) can't be good but that is not steel and far from as hard as the barrel metal. I pull a clean patch from chamber to muzzle, once, just to determine what if anything is needed. With powder coated bullets, I have yet to have anything other than a little powder residue left in the barrel. If anything, they are cleaner than before shooting. I have always had little puffs of whatever left in the barrel/chamber when firing 2400 powder, powders that don't leave ash, leave nothing.

I have been experimenting with cast lead that is powder coated being fired at velocities far in excess of what I would consider normal. So far I have had NO pressure indications. I have not worked with accuracy as of yet (the corn is coming out of the fields shortly and the beans are turning from green to that pretty gold/yellow) and will hold off until I can get my tractor on the far side of my creek. I'm running a conservative 2750 FPS with 130 grain lead/powder coated bullets out of a .308/7.62 (top velocity has ran 2877.4 FPS but I have not done a secondary verification of this (if the load can duplicate the same thing on a different day with a different set of loads, I will accept it, if not, well...).

The only 'down side' I have encountered is the coated bullets are so slick. Normal neck tension may not be enough. I don't normally crimp (any rifle loads) and recoil pulls the coated bullets of the remaining 7 rounds in an enblock clip in the belly of my Garand :( Velocities with the 130 grain bullet, single fed, clocked at 2466 FPS. I load my classic Garands soft and this velocity was about where I wanted it, out of my 03A3, I get 2715.25 FPS with no sweat :)

Also, I shoot outside and lube smoke is interrelate to me. Being old and lazy, I don't coat pistol bullets. I don't see the need. Yes I have tested some in 44 Magnum and they worked very well. My .45 loads, lead, run just over 900 FPS and coating would show me no added value. Same with 40 cals. (I don't do 'little' bullet pistols :) )

I hope I have helped you in your interest.

Load with care and enjoy,

OSOK

[Smoke4320]

Actual BHN of cured PC powder according to the MFG I deal with is 24 to 28... Far less than a copper jacket ..

[gpidaho]

I think I pretty much accepted the fact that there would be some abrasion factors involved when I began shooting cast boolits. What with wheel weight road grime and other reclaimed lead "additives" I don't care how much you flux your still going to have some abrasive factors. I just can't see how the powder coat could do anything but help in this regard. Shoot enough and a barrel is going to wear. Only safe queens don't wear, and they will rust and get dinged it you don't take proper care. Have fun, wear them out and by another. My .02 GP

[dkf]

I am going to keep an eye on this thread. A guy over on 300Blktalk has had a barrel wore almost smooth. I am not sure if it was the number of rounds, PC or a combination thereof but it was smooth: http://www.300blktalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=136&t=88878

Round count from his guess for the barrel was 6k+ rounds(actual number is probably higher) and a fraction of that was using PC cast boolits.(he says 700 in flat black) I don't take much stock in this one issue myself. For all we know the barrel could have been soft, flawed or it was some other factor. It was also a stainless barrel, no chrome lining and probably no melonite, Ionbond or other process done to it.

[leadman]

And to have an S.E.E. ? Don't see how in the 300BO. More likely an over charge. I have seen some 300 BO loads posted that I wonder how they ever got that much powder in the case.
He also stated he drilled out the boat tail of the Lee mold. Another probable source of the inaccuracy.

[Forrest r]

I've always found that the combo of heat/round count to be the deciding factor of bbl wear. Hence, a single shot rifle shooting the same load has always lasted longer than a semi-auto using the same load & rapid fire drills.

Sounds more like a combo of heavy/long bodied bullets being shot with full house loads and extremely fast, hot burning powders coupled with 30-round mags. Several 1000 of these down the tube of any rifle will wear them out.

Back when I was shooting service rifle (ar-15's), the bbl's were pretty much shot out @ the 7,000 to 7,500 round count. It started showing up @ the 600yd line & got worse real quick.

I have been playing with pc'd bullets in a 308, have around 2,000 of them down the tube now. The bullets weighed in the 125g to 230g range with most of them in the 180g range. The bbl is a 1 in 10 twist and most of the loads are in the +/- 1700fps range.

A little bbl history:
Bought it new & ran 50 jacketed bullets down the tube for break-in. Form there it's had around 500 paper patched bullets down the tube (212g/1700fps to 2300fps) and around 1000 cast bullets lubed with ben's red + tumble lubed with 45/45/10 & al gc's (home made from flashing). The cast boolits were shot from anywhere from 1000fps to 2200fps with 125g to 230g boolits. I've shot around 2000 pc'd bullets out of this new bbl also as stated above.

After the initial break-in of the bbl I set 6 different dummy rounds up for 6 different bullets so that the bullets were forced into the throat/leade/lands & grooves of the chamber/bbl, there was pressure when the bolt closed. These same dummy rounds still are forced into the throats & take the same pressure to this day. I can't see/measure find any bbl/throat wear so far on this bbl.

The next test:
The bbl I'm using is actually a test bbl, bought it to see if there was any draw backs to using pc on bullets. Haven't found any so far so now I'm ordering a throater to expand the bbl's throat out and to change the angle/taper of the bbl's throat to be more cast bullet friendly. Normal bbl wear will move the throat out (erode the bbl) but I haven't seen any in this bbl yet, so I'm going to do it mechanically (reamer).

Some random thoughts:
When I read/studied what everyone was doing with the pc and what they were using I decided to use/buy better quality pc. I noticed that allot of people were saying that there was allot of pc left in their bags of bowls that was too coarse to use/stick to the boolits. I also went with gloss finishes with the 3 different pc's that I bought to try.
Found that the pc'd bullets had around 70fps on average more velocity than their double lubed (ben's red/45-45-10) cast counterparts when comparing the same loads in the same rifle on the same day/same chronograph.

I plan on changing/experimenting with the throat in the test bbl & shooting nothing but pc'd, pp'd & traditional cast/lubed bullets in it and continuing to keep track of the loads/round counts while checking for wear. If nothing eye opening happens then the next step is to put a match grade (air gagged/stress relieved/match chamber'd) bbl on the same rifle and re-cutting the throat for cast/pc boolits.

At the end of the day I'd bet that 7,000 + rounds down the tube of most ar bbl's with full house loads of super hot fast burning powders will burn them out. I know standard heavy loads with varget & pl19 with 69g/75g & 80g bullets wore out a bushmaster ss bbl in 7000 rounds and a rock river ss bbl (douglass) in 7000 rounds.

[Love Life]

Shoot, I burnt a barrel out in 800 rds using heavy bullets, firing long shot strings, and firing fast. Heat is your enemy.

[RED333]

Impressive post Mr Forrest.

[MGnoob]

Guess what barrel burn out! as a new full auto guy i can tell you who cares if a barrel wears out. unless your going to change barrels for 2-8k round for some kind of repeatable sub MOA accuracy at 300+ yards i don't understand the concern......20-30k barrel changes seams good to me. my gueess on semi auto is they'll outlast most peoples bank account.

This topic reminds me of the the gas-piston vs Direct impingement ARs, always about less reliable, proprietary parts.....in full auto it's all about less heat.
people say ohh it's heavy for no reason.. the weight helps me in full auto and the low heat is ideal.

you can modify parts from one manufacture to work in another. weight and parts are of little concern compared to the price of ammo