Ring Around the 45acp.

[Weaponologist]

Yep, Sounds like a kids song doesn't it...lol..
But that's just what I have. Seems the seater round nose part of the stem is cutting into the nose of my 45 boolits. I know it wont hurt a thing but just thought I would mention it here and see if there was a fix for it. I thought about polishing the edge of the stem. Here are some Pic's for you guys to analyse..
What I started with was some old Hornady 230gr RNL I ran across and was just going to use them up.
http://i62.tinypic.com/sowzrs.jpg

http://i57.tinypic.com/4gqmg9.jpg

I took out the color to help the ring show better..
http://i59.tinypic.com/205dv0h.jpg

[shooter93]

Fill the seating stem with epoxy and sand it off flush and just use it as a flat punch. I've done this many times.

[nhrifle]

You can chamfer the edge of the seating punch where it contacts the boolit. Round it over so there is no sharp edge.

[triggerhappy243]

is the stem for round nose or semi-wadcutter?

[Weaponologist]

Thanks For the Ideas guys...I'll try that..

Triggerhappy243, Yes, it's for round nose, The Dillon Stem is two sided. One side is Flat for SWC and the other side is Round..I may just try the Flat side first because that would be the easiest and fastest thing to try...and would be like Shooter93 was talking about..

[Stonecrusher]

I got the exact marks from my Dillon dies on Mihec 452-200. I don't like the look either. I filled a hollowpoint with wax and smeared it with paste wax for release agent and dolloped some Marine-Tex in the cavity. Ran the round up into the de on the press and let is sit for a while. It fits perfectly now and no cosmetic blemishes. I sleep better at night now!

[triggerhappy243]

I do not currently load round nose boolits, but do use a dillon press. I need to look at my seating stem. I am curious now.

[1johnlb]

Are you sure them boolits aren't pure lead?

[gussiegoins2]

I had the same problem ith my dillon 45acp die seater. Take the seater stem out and fill the concave depression flush with JB weld. Grease the inside of the seater body with vasiline and put the stem back in. Take an unsized case and stuff it full of anything and put one of your unmarred bullets in at approx. OAL. Crimp that bullet to hold it fast and then grease it with vasiline. Put that round in your press and run it to the top of your press stroke. Now screw the seater die in from the top until it just snugs up with the bullet. Leave like this for 1 hour. Lower your ram gently. Remove seater stem and trim off the squished out JB weld with an exacto knife. It should be firm but not hard. Let the stem harden fully for 24 hours before using. Should give you a perfect fit with no lead nose marring.

[dudel]

Get a bit of tissue paper, put some lube on it and stuff it in the round nose cavity of the seater stem. Seat a few boolits, and the cavity will form to the boolit's nose. You can easily pick it out later if needed.

[Char-Gar]

That is some serious nose distortion and that lead has to go somewhere. I would opine that it increases the diameter of the rest of the nose.

I can only say that Dillon didn't design their dies for lead bullets. The nose seating punch and the expander diameter are not cast bullet friendly.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

It looks like your taper crimp is a bit much. Back out your die so the taper crimp is just pushing the flared mouth back to touch the bullet, NOT bite into it.

You may be applying crimp before the bullet is completely seated.

[Weaponologist]

IllinoisCoyoteHunter, The Crimp Die is Separate from the Seater. I Adjusted it just till I couldn't feel the flair any more. Any less and I can still feel the rise in the brass. However I do understand what your talking about. If the Seater and Crimp where together in one die..

[Char-Gar]

Current production dies are made for hard jacketed bullets, with the exception of RCBS Cowboy dies. When you use soft swaged bullet like you did, the problems show up clearly. This would no be so evident with the granite hard "hard cast" bullets that commercial casters sell. They have their own problems, but this is not one of them.

Back in the day, all dies were made for cast bullets with larger expanders and seating stems that fit.You were trying to horse a soft swaged bullet down into a case that was not large enough to accept it without too much pressure on the nose.

I have loaded 1/4 million 45 ACP cast bullet rounds with zero problems. In the 45 ACP, I use an old .452 Lyman 310 expander. These can be used in a bench mounted press with a thread adapter. With this set up, you get a expanded case that will not distort the bullet or require excessive pressure on the nose to seat it.

A separate taper crimp die is used and the bullet goes nowhere and survives the cycling through an autopistol with no damage or bullet set back. ALWAYS use a taper crimp die for autopistol rounds. Here is how they are adjusted;

1. Put a factory round in the shell holder and run the ram up to the top of the stroke.
2. Screw the taper crimp die down on the factory round as hard as you can using your hand only and no tools.
3. Keeping the pressure on the die with your hand, screw down the lock ring and you are done. That is all their is to it. All of your rounds will have the proper crimp and never give you any problems from that area.

[Weaponologist]

I polished the stem up. Not really ready to fill it with epoxy yet..If this doesn't help I can use my old RCBS seater die for now..I don't plan on using these Bullets again they where just a cheap find I ran across. The lead I normally use has a longer nose.
I could tell the cup of the stem was really deep. So I took the edge down a little and I could tell it wasn't Sticking/Grabbing to the Nose of the Hornady like it was a first...
Will Load some tonight and see what happens..

[Char-Gar]

When your polish job and RCBS seater does not give you satisfaction, go back and read #14 above.

There is nothing wrong with the swaged bullets, they are of good quality. This is a teaching moment if there is a willingness to learn.

[Weaponologist]

Sorry, Char-Gar, But I can't see how adjusting the Crimp Die will stop something that has all ready happened in the Seater Die??
I do understand the undo pressure when a case is not belled enough which I can open a bit to try however what I have seen from what the others have said is the stem really isn't cut correctly. I can see this when I can just set the stem on top of one of these bullets and feel the sides of the cup start to dig in to the lead long before the nose bottoms out in the cup.
I believe this is why when they put epoxy in the stem and raise a bullet in the ram. they are filling in the deep part of the cup allowing the epoxy to mould a proper couture fit. As an old mechanic this I understand. And please believe me when I tell you. I always have a willingness to learn.. Which is one of the reasons I joined this site. I've seen first hand that their are far smarter people here than I.. My primary purpose here is to learn..

[Char-Gar]

Sorry, Char-Gar, But I can't see how adjusting the Crimp Die will stop something that has all ready happened in the Seater Die??
I do understand the undo pressure when a case is not belled enough which I can open a bit to try however what I have seen from what the others have said is the stem really isn't cut correctly. I can see this when I can just set the stem on top of one of these bullets and feel the sides of the cup start to dig in to the lead long before the nose bottoms out in the cup.
I believe this is why when they put epoxy in the stem and raise a bullet in the ram. they are filling in the deep part of the cup allowing the epoxy to mould a proper couture fit. As an old mechanic this I understand. And please believe me when I tell you. I always have a willingness to learn.. Which is one of the reasons I joined this site. I've seen first hand that their are far smarter people here than I.. My primary purpose here is to learn..

I guess I did not make myself clear....Crimping has nothing to do with the distortion of the bullets nose. I just gave you the instructions on how to adjust a taper crimp die as a free gift.

The distortion of the bullet nose, has nothing to do with the bell. The bell is the flair at the case mouth.

The shape of the bullet seating stem where it contacts the nose probably is not the cause of the bullet nose distortion. It would just appear so, because the marks on the nose are so pronounced. I sure would not stuff epoxy in the seating stem cavity because it is the dickens to remove when that is not the cause of your problem.

THE PROBLEM IS the expander of you die is to small. Probably about .449 and the bullet is .451 or .452. That .002 - .003 difference won't make much a difference with harder cast bullets but will have an effect on your current soft swaged bullets. In order to swage bullets, they must be made out of very soft metal.

Perhaps you are not aware that your bullets are very soft swaged, but that is what they are if the box pictured contains the original contents.

When you seat your bullets into the .002 - .003 undersize case case neck, the pressure required is enough to deform and expand the bullet nose because the metal is so soft. A jacketed bullet or hard cast bullet won't deform under the same circumstances.

THE FIX IS one of two things;

1. Get a larger expander so the bullets can be seated with less pressure...or
2. Don't use soft swaged bullets.

There is nothing wrong with these softer swaged bullets and they will give good accuracy in your firearm BUT THEY DO REQUIRE A DIFFERENT APPROACH TO LOADING THEM. Even with a case mouth expanded to .451 or .452 you might see some marking on the bullet nose due to the mismatch of shape, but it will not be as pronounced and not have any effect on the feeding of loaded rounds or accuracy.

That is as clear as I know how to make it. If I am wrong, I am wrong, but I don't think I am. Take it for what it is worth.

If you want to check this out, mail me about a dozen or so of your fired cases. I will size and expand them .452 and mail them back to you. You can prime, charge, seat the bullets and crimp the rounds. I think you will then see what is going on i.e. you are trying to stuff a very soft bullet into case that is to small to receive it without being distorted in the process.

[loaded303]

My first thought was wrong seat die shape and/or not enough bell. I've left marks but it was minor and they were hard cast 45s. Ring around the 45 does sound like a nursery rhyme. Gotta grab my guitar! Lol

[gwpercle]

Custom fitting the stem to the bullet nose profile with a dab of epoxy or epoxy putty is not a permanent thing, just don't clean the nose stem area very well and it can be removed easily . Those boolits are soft swagged lead, maybe seating and crimping in seperate steps would help. If you use the semi-wadcutter stem , it will put a little flat spot on the boolit nose , sort of a round nose flat point, that might not be bad.
Gary

[Weaponologist]

Char-gar...Now I understand.....I know what the problem may be....I picked these up at a local range. they all had the Glock Bulge on them so after Sizing I had to run them through the Lee Bulge Buster which as you probably know tightens the whole case back to factory spec. I did not run them back through the sizer die as I was loading so they didn't get hit with the Expander during the process.. If not this than I'll will look into another Expander..
Char-Gar..Thanks for clearing that up..Sir..

[Char-Gar]

IllinoisCoyoteHunter, The Crimp Die is Separate from the Seater. I Adjusted it just till I couldn't feel the flair any more. Any less and I can still feel the rise in the brass. However I do understand what your talking about. If the Seater and Crimp where together in one die..

He is seating and crimping in separate operations.

[Char-Gar]

Char-gar...Now I understand.....I know what the problem may be....I picked these up at a local range. they all had the Glock Bulge on them so after Sizing I had to run them through the Lee Bulge Buster which as you probably know tightens the whole case back to factory spec. I did not run them back through the sizer die as I was loading so they didn't get hit with the Expander during the process.. If not this than I'll will look into another Expander..
Char-Gar..Thanks for clearing that up..Sir..

I know nothing about a "bulge buster" and question the need for such a thing. I shoot a full auto Thompson often and it has a very loosey goosey chamber. Fired cases are quite bulged, but after sizing in my RCBS carbide die are back to spec without the need of any special dies and run fine in my 1911 handguns. I will hasten to add, I do not use a progressive press and perhaps they don't have the leverage to size bulged cases with no sweat. I can guarantee you that even an old pre-war up stroke Pacific will size them without sweat.

Some of the stuff sold now to pry your guys away from your money is not needed.

If you are trying to seat the bullets in what are essentially sized but unexpanded cases, there is your problem for sure and for certain.

[Weaponologist]

Char-Gar, .. On the Glock it has a section of the chamber removed so you can see the Chamber is hot. However this causes another problem. A Bulge close to the rim that NO sizer die can reach is formed. This will keep a reloaded case from totally chambering. Not sure if I can explain this correctly even though I understand it. But you can look it up to get a better explanation. There are Far more expensive units for sale to remove this bulge but Lee has made a very affordable die and push rod that allows you to use a single stage press to reform all your brass for reloading.
With many Police Departments using Glock,This type of defective brass is readily available. The Lee Bulge Buster allows the Reloader a way of salvaging what would have been trashed..

[triggerhappy243]

char-gar, what weaponologist says about the glock is true.... concerning the bulge making notch in the chamber. it is the main reason I will never own one..... because of the extra steps needed to reload brass fired from that brand of handgun. your 1911 and thompson do not create that type of bulge.

[John Boy]

Fill the seating plug up with hot glue - spit on the the bullet nose - twist in the glue - trim excess - Done!
And if you seat a different bullet nose - pick out the glue and repeat

[andremajic]

I believe Char-Gar gave the best instructions for this issue. I was about to jump on the epoxy bandwagon, but remembered my old Hornady, with the multiple sizes of stems for sizing the mouths. This is definitely your most likely culprit.

Epoxy is great for making a custom lube-sizing top.

[Char-Gar]

I have a Glock 17 and a 19 and they need no special dies to load the 9mm cases. I have no experience with a Glock 45, so I can't speak to that. I never saw much need for a Glock 45 when I had a Sig and several 1911.

I did look up that gizmo, and I would think it should be used as the first step in loading a case not after sizing.

Anyway, you guys have fun busting bulges. I will plod along without one. You have my thinking about the original issue of nose distortion. Take it or leave it, for you paid nothing for it.

As far as handgun seating dies nose shape I use the factory (Lyman, RCBS and Redding) RN stem and turn another flat with the lathe. The flat nose punch is used for SWC and WC. I have never had any need to stuff epoxy or anything else in the stem and I have loaded lots of ammo with lots of bullets. Maybe I am missing something but, I doubt it. Anyway I will muddle on.

[dudel]

char-gar, what weaponologist says about the glock is true.... concerning the bulge making notch in the chamber. it is the main reason I will never own one..... because of the extra steps needed to reload brass fired from that brand of handgun. your 1911 and thompson do not create that type of bulge.

It's only an issue on .40 Glocks. My 9s and 45GAPs don't have a bulge.

[Billybumbler]

I also have had this result and found that it was caused by not sizing the case enough. It was tight enough that smushed the lead and left a 'ring around the boolet' although not as much as pictured.

I have a RIA 1911.
Bill

[Char-Gar]

I also have had this result and found that it was caused by not sizing the case enough. It was tight enough that smushed the lead and left a 'ring around the boolet' although not as much as pictured.

I have a RIA 1911.
Bill

With all due respect Bill, that doesn't make any sense. sizing would make the bullet fit tighter and not looser. Are you sure you don't mean "not expanded enough" rather than "not sized enough"?

[loaded303]

I pick up 9/40/45 brass. After cleaning first thing iempty cases go thru the bulge buster. Then I bag it up and save it for when I start my reloading. No problems at all since I started this process. Just me. 117946

[loaded303]

Double post

[texasbilly]

Sounds like a lot of effort to modify the boolit seater when the ring makes no difference in the accuracy, velocity, or performance of the round. Here's another thought: what happens to the modified boolit seater when he runs out of those boolits? Modify another one? If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[loaded303]

When I got the bell right on a 230lrn I could rake a thumb nail across it an it was good.

[Weaponologist]

Sounds like a lot of effort to modify the boolit seater when the ring makes no difference in the accuracy, velocity, or performance of the round. Here's another thought: what happens to the modified boolit seater when he runs out of those boolits? Modify another one? If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Texasbilly, That's kinda what I said on the very first post...I know it won't hurt a thing. But it was just something I've never ran in to in 30+ years of Reloading .. And it gave a chance to learn 1. What was the cause and 2. What would be a Fix.
Honestly what I learned was that to fix it correctly would mean having someone make a slightly bigger expander which would open the case where it should be for pushing lead in...However, a lot of the guys have figured out another fix by altering the stem, this doesn't solve the problem but will stop the effects or the stem cutting into the bullet. and by doing this it won't cause problems with other bullets. None of the guys reported any trouble when changing to other bullet types..But a custom made expander is the proper fix.
Honestly, I did some things wrong at first but after I corrected that the ring is much Smaller/Lighter...I didn't rerun my cases through the sizer die after I ran them through the Bulge Buster. After the expander went through them the ring all but vanished.. I'll get some pic's tomorrow. I'll be loading more 45acp then.. SO, as of now. I'm just going with it as is....

[Bullwolf]

Along the lines of what Char-Gar has suggested, I would add this.

Pull one of those loaded soft swaged lead 45 boolits that now has a ring on the nose, and measure the outside diameter of the boolit.

Compare that measurement with a fresh boolit right out of the box that doesn't have the ring on it.

If you are not expanding your cases enough, to the point that you are making a ring like that on a soft swaged lead boolit...There is also a very good chance that the brass is squeezing or swaging down your boolit diameter smaller (likely undersize now) while you're seating them. In my experience cartridge brass is much tougher than pure soft lead.

Yet another reason to use the correct size expander. The measurements might be very eye opening.


- Bullwolf

[Weaponologist]

Here are pictures of the same Hornady Bullets after taking a little off the sides of the cup and making sure they went through the sizing Die again after the Bulge Buster.
They have a very slight ring, You can hardly see...
http://i60.tinypic.com/21e80wn.jpg

After using all those I switch to my Lucky13 Bullets and they had no Ring at all...see pictures..
http://i60.tinypic.com/2uo3t48.jpg





Thanks to everyone for taking the time to help...I appreciate each and everyone of you....Bill

[triggerhappy243]

they look great

[HATCH]

Fill the seating plug up with hot glue - spit on the the bullet nose - twist in the glue - trim excess - Done!
And if you seat a different bullet nose - pick out the glue and repeat

This is exactly what you do.
I have owned or currently own sq deal b, 550s and a 650.
I modify all my seating stems this way.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

After reading the entire thread, I'm on board with Char-gar. He has the right of it. The only other thing I would do other than his suggestions is smooth the sharp edge of that seater a bit more to minimize it cutting into your soft lead swaged boolits. I do think if you're not following his suggestion on the expansion of your brass, you're reducing the diameter of those soft lead boolits and thereby reducing their accuracy and potentially going to cause some leading due to gas blow by.