.454 conicals for 1860 Army

[Scavenger]

Hello, Im new to this forum, and BP. Accuired a old 1977 DGG 1860 Army, pretty happy with her, and she shoots straight, but wanted to try some conicals.
Does anyone have .454 that will fit off the shelf? Any insight on this particular revolver?
Thanks in advance.

[doc1876]

there are several postings on this subject here, you will be better using round ball. The conical just do not shoot straight.
there are also several postings as to the loading, but the best advice I can ever give is to use use fffg black, and a good grease, not oil especially on the cylinder pin.

[docone31]

I don't know if I answered this before and didn't post on it, but, the .454 RB fits well in the 1860. The conical is a little different. First, you have the cylinder to barrel spacing. The conical might not fit. I have tried the Lee .452 .45 ACP RNFP. That worked a little easier. 30gns of 3f, Black Powder lubed castings to .452, and it should work. My revolver fires that casting with the .45 Schofield. Shoots high by 18" at 50 yds. You might try that, or get some .45 200gn castings just to see if it works. I think the RB is better with that pistol, but in the Schofield it really performs. The loading ram can break.

[4rdwhln]

My Lyman 1860 shoots the .454 round ball very well. It is also high at 50 yards only 3-4 inches tho. Last time out we shot some gallon water jugs, always impressive with the .357 mag..the jug usually explodes and water everywhere. Not so with the old black powder load . just a very large hole in and out .

[taco650]

I have one (Uberti) and have only shot round balls out of it. I have read that almost all cap-n-ball revolvers shoot high with conicals. YMMV.

[CPL Lou]

Here ya go:
http://www.titanreloading.com/molds/black-powder-molds/conical-bullet-mold/lee-dc-mold-450-200-1r
You may have to seat them 'off the pistol', but they are the correct size.
Length may be the only issue for seating.

CPL Lou

[Multigunner]

always impressive with the .357 mag..the jug usually explodes and water everywhere. Not so with the old black powder load . just a very large hole in and out .
If you want something impressive from a BP revolver try out a Colt Walker with a maximum charge. The energy level is very close to that of a .357.

Its not so much that round balls are inherently more accurate it just that seating a conical ball perfectly straight in the chamber is not that easy with the loading lever of a BP revolver.
The Patterson revolvers without loading lever had a loading station arrangement as an accessory. There were several versions of these.
One of these loaded all the chambers at once using a threaded shaft and handle to press the bullets home by means of a disc with a short rammer for each bullet nose. Another had a heavy base and arbor like the cylinder arbor and a detachable rammer that acted much like a reloading press.
In the field they used a loading lever that fit into the cross pin slot of the arbor, the barrel being removed during reloading.

Crisco is still the best lube for BP revolvers. Some modern axle grease can cause pulled through arbors and crack brass frames even with light loads. Older style axle grease might work.
Crisco does not stink as much as tallow from animal fat.
I normally keep a spare loaded cylinder and regrease the arbor when switching out cylinders. Build up of BP fouling can wear the arbor faster than you'd think.

[Springfield]

Everybody is different, but I have found conicals and wads a waste of time. I can shoot a 6 stage cowboy match with just putting my regular BP lube over the balls with no problems. Last month a shot a match and didn't even clean the guns, just went and shot another match the next weekend, no problems. I like LOTS of lube, and wads just don't hold that much. IMHO

[leftiye]

Don't them wads pollute yer powder? Isn't the groove on those barrels .444? Doesn't the chamber mouth size down the balls and boolits to about that diameter? Draw your own deductions.

[Thumbcocker]

Elmer mentioned that cap and ball pistols loaded like that would keep for years.

[Springfield]

Seems to me if a lubed wad on top of your powder doesn't leak into the powder in 3 months it just reinforces my contention that there isn't enough lube there to be doing any good. I put a BIG gob of lube over the balls, I know it is doing some good.

[Multigunner]

Crisco can dry out a bit and become more like wax, but it takes months. I've left my 1851 loaded for several months and before shooting I'd have to rotate the cylinder by had for the first shot, after the first shot the crisco on the arbor was nice a greasy again.The felt wads reduce the effective powder space, I can't use them with the full loads I prefer to use.Theres also a slim possiblity of a wad smoldering and setting a fire a few yards down range. I've seen that happen with cloth patched muzzle loading rifles.

[Southron]

I simply dip my cast revolver round balls in a molten mixture of 60% REAL Beeswax and 40% Bore Butter. Then I set them aside on a sheet of aluminum foil for the wax to harden.

At the range all I have to do is dump the powder in the cylinder and load the ball and cap the nipples.

I don't have to mess around with any of that "Greasy Kid Stuff" and my revolver shoots GREAT!

[taco650]

I've had good luck with the felt wads in my 1860 Army. No multiple cylinders going off, no greasy fingers, shoots fine and as accurate as I can do with the minimalist sights.

[Good Cheer]

The 1860 was given the rack and pinion loading lever to get conicals into the chambers. The military wanted conical noses to punch through overcoats. They weren't so much interested in tight groups on paper as they were in holing their brothers. The accuracy problems with conicals are obvious... I mean, come on, would you design a mold like that?
So, if you want to shoot bullets in your 1860 and take advantage of what it was designed for, try some bullets with a design for better accuracy instead of conicals.
There are bunches of designs to choose from seeing as .45 molds are some of the popular. What you'll need to do is measure your chambers and figure out how to fit bullets to them. If the bullets don't fit you'll play billy getting accuracy.
The reproduction revolvers produced nowadays are pretty frequently though not uniformly machined to have chamber diameters about half way between the bore and the groove diameters. The further back in time you go the more the manufacturing practices varied. Some have bore diameter chambers and some groove diameter.
For .44 Pietta's of recent production you can usually cast with .45 molds and size them .444", leaving the front driving band large to shear on the chamber lip. That way you get ease of loading, alignment and sealing with flexibility in bullet designs to choose from. If, that is, the cut out in the lower part of the barrel is sized to allow a particular mold design to rotate under the loading lever.
Here's the results of some testing I did a few days ago just for grins with a 1858 model to compare round ball versus bullet penetration in some really gelled gooey detergent water soaked paper. It demonstrates something that is obvious once you're seeing it and mull it over a while: You're swapping lead volume for powder volume, the reason that some conical loaded paper cartridges were loaded with fast burning gradations of powder to try to up the velocity.
http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy192/SNARGLEFLERK/1858452066vsRB_zpsa7734763.jpg (http://s791.photobucket.com/user/SNARGLEFLERK/media/1858452066vsRB_zpsa7734763.jpg.html)
Recently I've been working up loads for a 1858 reworked to shoot with .41 mag molds cast from soft lead. With Jacks Battle Powder and #11 caps I just consider it to be my caseless ammo .41 Special. As far as penetration goes in the same gelled paper it does the same as the .44 does. It's that trading volume thing.
Another aspect related to the trading off of volume is that the nose designs on molds for cartridges usually have a nose that takes up chamber space better used for powder or lead than grease and air. But the flatter the nose the less penetration you are going to have. A wadcutter in the .41 like the Lyman 41026 (see below) behaves as a parachute when it hits something (note the flatter 452066 shown above that slowed down more quickly). The Lee 195 grain SWC zips on through as does the 41028 rounded flat point.
So, said all that to say this. Tailor your loads to fit the task at hand just like with any revolver. Size the bullets to create alignment and to avoid unnecessary stress on the loading lever and on Colts the wedge slot.
http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy192/SNARGLEFLERK/recoveredtests_zpsd9d95cc0.jpg (http://s791.photobucket.com/user/SNARGLEFLERK/media/recoveredtests_zpsd9d95cc0.jpg.html)

[taco650]

Good Cheer,

Thanks for sharing your insights. It's good "food for thought".

Also, how did you convert an 1858 to shoot .41 cal boolits? Maybe that's for another thread or PM.

[Good Cheer]

Mr. John Taylor did the conversion on a .36 caliber 1858.