FA Model 83 Accurate Mid Range Loads Possible

[ejcrist]

After saving my pennies and finally deciding which Freedom Arms Revolver I want to get (I think) I'm getting ready to put in an order for a Model 83 in 454 Casull with the extra 45 Colt cylinder. Actually I want just a 45 Colt which is my favorite caliber, but I like shooting the heavier, longer cast boolits such as the RCBS-45-270-SAA SWC which won't fit in the 97's cylinder due to the 97's length of 1.60" vs. the 1.677" of a loaded round with the 45-270. As a result I'm opting for the 83 which has more than enough length. Also, this will be primarily a hunting revolver rather than a packing revolver, so the extra weight isn't much of a factor. One question I have is regarding the slow twist rates on FA's website. I believe the 454 Casull/45 Colt barrel twist was 1:24". I'm guessing you'd have to push any cast boolit over ~ 1,000 FPS in a twist that slow to get good stability/accuracy. Is this true and has anyone had any experience with slower boolits in these revolvers, and if so, how did they perform?

Thanks, Gene

[44man]

Yes, you need to shoot faster. The Ruger .45 Colt is 1 in 16" so the 1 in 24" needs driven. If you look, the BFR .460 is 1 in 16". So is the .454 BFR.
You will not get a .45 Colt to speed in a Freedom. Over 1000 fps is not near enough. You will be over 22,200 RPM's too short.
You need about 1750 fps to get a Colt to stabilize. You need about 52,200 RPM's with a heavy Colt boolit.
Buy a Ruger in .45 Colt. No problem with 335 to 347 gr boolits.
The Freedom .454 needs shot at max with .454 rounds. .45 is a fire hose.

[freedom475]

Save your money!! DO NOT buy the extra cylinder, it will do nothing for you.

I got my first 454 FA83 with the the extra 45 colt cylinder...it was a waste of $$

I did not find that the 454 loaded down w/ lighter bullets shot too bad at pistol ranges...I used it one time in a CowboyAction match and did just fine with it....but I had to change the front sight when I changed loads.

The M97 45 colt was SUPER NICE...but as you discovered, it would not feed normal length 45 colts:(...so it left.

I have had several FA's over the years and can say they are the best revolvers that I have ever owned. I now like to shoot heavy bullets at slower speed so the 475L is my go-to FA83 now.


As a primary hunting revolver the 454 is Awesome...it shoots their 260gr bullets to 2000fps and will shoot 200yrds with class. But it is NO 45 colt!

If you want a to shoot the 83 at 45colt power levels I STRONGLY suggest you buy it in 44mag.

[chloe123]

And then the aux. 45ACP for the '83 was a poor decision on their part, leading to poor performance due to caliber constraints. I think that's a pretty controversial statement

[bobthenailer]

PM sent

[Paul105]

I've had good luck with the RCBS 270gr SAA and about 8.0gr of HP38. I seat and crimp these over the front drive band in .45 Colt cases so they will function thru my FA97, but they work just fine in my FA83 454. Here is a representative group at 25 yds with this load (shot in the .454 cylinder, before I got the 45 Colt aux cyl). I'm not to good about cleaning my stuff right away, so I also have a .45 Colt aux cylinder for the FA83 (may or may not be required, but it makes me feel better). As always, your mileage may very.

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n172/Paul105_photo/Hobby/RIMG2059_zps60cd99d9.jpg

certainly not 1" at 100 yds, but respectable for most mere mortals.

FWIW,

Paul

[Tar Heel]

Here is a 45 Colt "Ruger" load I use in the FA M83.
12.0 AA-7, Use either 45 Colt brass or 454 brass with standard primers (non-magnum).
Bullet is the Lyman 454629 300gr FPGC mold made for Freedom Arms

25 yards. She will shoot high due to the lower velocity. Mine pops 10" high at 25 yards but is spot on at 100 yards. Velocity is about 1000fps and the load in the 45 Colt brass is OK for the Ruger Blackhawk and ORIGINAL Vaquero (NOT the "New Vaquero").

The 5-shot group can be covered with a quarter. The other hole was to see if the KTSWC shot to the same point. It did.

117058

117059

[Plastikosmd]

nice shooting. thx for your load info

[snowwolfe]

At one time I owned a FA in 454. It didn't matter how slow I ran the bullets out it would shoot one ragged hole at 25 yards. Light or heavy bullets it didn't matter.
The 454 is long gone but I have a 44 mag and a 22 on order.
The best built production revolvers ever built, period.

[Tar Heel]

I've had good luck with the RCBS 270gr SAA and about 8.0gr of HP38. I seat and crimp these over the front drive band in .45 Colt cases so they will function thru my FA97, but they work just fine in my FA83 454. Here is a representative group at 25 yds with this load (shot in the .454 cylinder, before I got the 45 Colt aux cyl).Paul

I can vouch for this 8.0 gr load of HP38 too. 1.3" thereabouts out of mine as well using a 300g FPGC bullet. HP38 is the group opener compared to AA-7. If HP38 is all you can get, so be it. All of the other propellants, except Accurate Powders, have larger groups when loaded to lower velocities in my FA M83. The gun is made to race, not trot, so we deal with "average" groups using lower velocity loads. An "average" group of 1.5" at 25 yards is nothing to laugh at either. That's still a darn good group.

[Tar Heel]

At one time I owned a FA in 454. The best built production revolvers ever built, period.

Absolutely agree.

[44man]

Have done a lot of work with a friend and his 83. Always found near or max was more accurate, getting to 1" and less at 50 yards, (we don't shoot closer) Even my PB shot at 1". Max loads of 296 were best. We never tried Colt loads or down to 1000 fps. I don't see how to spin them for longer ranges.

[ole 5 hole group]

I have an FA97 in 45 Colt and you need to push a little for good groups. For 325 grain cast I had to go 1,125fps to get under an inch consistently at 25 yards. That particular group uses 21.0 grains of H110 with a WLP primer and velocity was 1,125fps on average.

900 to 1,050 fps would go under 2 inches and is a pleasure to shoot. Once you get over 1,250fps with the heavies the group will start opening again and felt recoil will come into play.


I have a BFR in 454 and I found 33.0 grains of Lil'Gun behind a 260 cast bullet using a WLP primer (I use cut down 460SW cases for the 454) will give 1,572 fps and will shoot right at a half inch at 25 yards rested. I would think that load would work pretty well in the FA and you can push it a little harder, if need be, to get bug-hole groups.


Shooting small groups rested isn't as easy as some make it out to be, as "gun control" is a major factor and that takes a lot of trigger time - grip consistency when shooting the "big bores" can't be over stressed - perfect sight alignment and excellent trigger control goes to hell in a hand basket when your grip falters during the shot string.

[Groo]

Groo here
As 44man said you need to run an Fa 454 to speed to get long/heavy bullets to spin up.
If you want "light" loads you must shoot lighter/shorter bullets.
The 454 is a hunting round,intended to send a 225-to 260gr bullet down range at 2000fps or so.
The heavy cast was first used to slow the bullet so that lead would not strip,at full pressure when shooting steel.
This was before we had jacketed bullets that would stand up to 65000psi + pressures.

[cbrick]

Groo here
As 44man said you need to run an Fa 454 to speed to get long/heavy bullets to spin up.
If you want "light" loads you must shoot lighter/shorter bullets.
The 454 is a hunting round, intended to send a 225-to 260gr bullet down range at 2000fps or so.
The heavy cast was first used to slow the bullet so that lead would not strip, at full pressure when shooting steel.
This was before we had jacketed bullets that would stand up to 65000psi + pressures.

Gee Groo, how would a 320 gr cast do at 1350 fps out of a FA 454? How would a 240 gr bullet do out of a FA 454 @ only 1400 fps?

Here's a little history lesson for ya, FA on the very first day the 454 was introduced was selling a line of different bullet weights specifically for the 454. Extra thick jackets to take the 454 pressures and FA highly recommended NOT using 45 colt bullets in the 454 with full pressure loads. There was no "before we had jacketed bullets that would stand up to 65000psi + pressures.

The LBT 320 gr shot well enough to keep them on the 200 meter ram, while not my silhouette load it wasn't all that bad. A 240 gr loaded down to 44m levels of 1400 fps is a tack driver and was my silhouette load.

While the FA 454 certainly can be loaded to 2000 fps for a hunting round it absolutely does not have to be. Original FA loading data supplied with new FA's when they first came out for 240 gr bullets was H-110 36.0 gr to 39 gr. The 36 gr load out of my FA chrono'd at 2000 fps. This was not my silhouette load.

The FA 454 is an extremely versatile caliber/revolver when properly loaded and there is no need of dislocating your shoulder to get outstanding results.

Rick

[Ed K]

It is my understanding that the mod 83 & 97 use exactly the same barrel blanks. If the 83 is really this bad, how can the 97 hit anything at all?

[Tar Heel]

Guys, the M83 is a tack driver. See post #7

[44man]

Both can be super accurate, we only found it was the individual gun. Most problem with a 97 in .357 with perfect .357" throats but .359" grooves, out of round to .3599". Got that fixed.
Rick is still getting good velocity for stability however, Hornady DID come out with a 240 and 300 gr listed as MAG for the .454.
At first cores were being shot out of bullets. Not good to have the jacket left in the bore.
Same thing happened in the .357 max with the wrong bullets. I used the Speer 180 gr rifle bullet from mine.

[cbrick]

When FA introduced the 454 they sold bullets specifically for the 454. They came in a white 50 count box with the FA logo on it. I had a very early 454 and bought FA's bullets from the same store at the same time I bought the revolver. I don't remember now if it was Sierra or Hornady that made them for FA but they were sold in the white FA boxes.

Some people did shoot the cores right out of the jackets but these were people that didn't heed FA's advice to not use 45 Colt bullets in full power loads.

Rick

[snowwolfe]

I went a different route with the bullets I used in my 454 FA. I contacted Barnes (when Barnes owned the company) about 20 years ago and talked to Connie and asked her if they could make me a run of monolithic solids. She suggested 260 grains because if they were heavier the bullets might be to long to stabilize. Ordered either 500 or 1,000 and used these to kill various critters over the years including one huge Alaskan bull moose. I remember I recovered one bullet from the moose from a quartering away shot and I estimated it went through 5 feet of tissue and bones. Bullet looked perfect with only some of the rifling grooves on it.
Guess it shows you dont need weight to penetrate. How the bullet is constructed is way more important.

[44MAG#1]

Crimp the RCBS 270 over the front band and use it if a M97 is what you want just remember to reduce the load some from the loads with the bullet seated normally.
Not rocket science here just using the ole noodle.

[ejcrist]

Thanks much for all the replies and great info. Lots to think about. I think I am going to go with the 83 in 454 after much thought. I built a couple of flintlocks with very slow twists for round ball and I remember a couple of fellows shooting conicals out of their 45 caliber 1:48" TC muzzleloaders and they seemed to do ok, so 1:24" doesn't seem all that slow a twist compared to them. Like any wheel gun I'm sure you'll have to go through the load development steps to find what works best but that's half the fun.

[MT Chambers]

My FA '83 in .454/.45 Colt has every option they offer and is the most accurate pistol I've ever seen or used, whether it's light loads or bear busters.

[44man]

I believe Hornady made the Freedom bullets. It is entirely safe to shoot hard cast from the .454, we have used just water dropped WW metal. No leading and great accuracy. The LBT 335 gr is a good boolit.

[BRobertson]

No, not true for the factory Freedom bullets.
Freedom made the bullets in their facility in the Star Valley , Wyoming. They sold the equipment off a few years back. They still have a small stock of the 260 gr.
They have everything they can handle just making their revolvers nowadays. No time for bullets or gun cases!!

Bob

[W.R.Buchanan]

There is an excellent article about loading the .45 LC for use in Ruger Redhawk's in the current Handloader Magazine.

Issue#292 Oct 2014.

It explains all of what has be said above in detail and in a simple form that Brian Pearce is known for.

The one reoccurring point is that if you get the .454 with the 1:24 barrel you will have to drive it hard, and it probably isn't going to shoot lighter .45LC loads as well.

For that reason alone I personally would go with the 45LC version as it can take being driven hard, and still shoot well at lower speeds too.

When you get past complete pass thru power on any game animal in NA you are creating environmental problems by inducing unneeded and unwanted Seismic Events. These events could,,, if you were close to Yellowstone,,, cause a cataclysmic eruption of the Yellowstone Caldera which could make a mess out of that whole region for the next several hundred years. Lots of people from San Francisco would be mad at you for doing this!

Act accordingly!

My.02

Randy

[Ed K]

My FA '83 in .454/.45 Colt has every option they offer and is the most accurate pistol I've ever seen or used, whether it's light loads or bear busters.


The one reoccurring point is that if you get the .454 with the 1:24 barrel you will have to drive it hard, and it probably isn't going to shoot lighter .45LC loads as well.

No consensus yet! ;-)

[Rifle 57]

No, not true for the factory Freedom bullets.
Freedom made the bullets in their facility in the Star Valley , Wyoming. They sold the equipment off a few years back. They still have a small stock of the 260 gr.
They have everything they can handle just making their revolvers nowadays. No time for bullets or gun cases!!

Bob
Yes Bob you are correct I stopped in there shop about 15 years ago when on vacation and bought some 260 grn fp bullets from them when they were making them and I still have a full box of them on my loading bench.
Loren

[44man]

Bob and Randy, I did not know they made their own so thanks for the info. Randy is correct that you need to drive them. Ruger also messed up, the .454 should be 1 in 16" like the BFR.
It mirrors what we found, shoot the Freedom and SRH HOT. Heavier boolits need more for spin up. You can not hit the barn side from inside fooling with 800 fps.
Shooting the Freedom .454 at max does not feel much different then a heavy .44 load to me.
The .475 also should have a faster twist but with the short cylinder, most heavy boolits don't fit anyway. The BFR .475 has a 1 in 15" with a long cylinder and will shoot very heavy boolits.
As twist gets slower you are better off with lighter bullets.
The surprise is the BFR in 45-70, 1 in 14" twist and will out shoot every 45-70 rifle ever made at any distance.
Freedom is not that far off since they made the guns to shoot according to cylinder length so if you want large boolits, you seat deeper, reduce capacity and velocity and defeat the design. To get a .45 Colt or ACP from 1 in 24" is kind of a pipe dream.

[High Desert Hunter]

I have never had any issue shooting lower velocity loads in either a Ruger, or a Freedom Arms. I have a Ruger Bisley, with a 1:16 twist, and the same loads in the 454 will outshoot the Bisley, and I thought it was a very accurate gun, until I realized my FA could shoot at 100 what it could do at 50.

http://kwk.us/twist.html

[doghawg]

I haven't had any issues getting accuracy with my two .454 FA M83's at reduced velocity. Pic is with 300 gr. RCBS GC's over 22 gr. of 2400 (1280 fps) fired at 70 yards with wrists between my knees while sitting against a stump. Have had good luck also with Lyman 424's at 1150 over Blue Dot and RCBS 270 SAA's with Unique or W231 at 1000 fps. IMO the .454 can do it all.....mild or wild.
http://www.myhostedpics.com/images/565apple/amp10153medium.jpg